Happy Atheist Forum

I was totally wrong about meditation. Studying it in literature is not nearly as helpful as talking to practitioners. I attended a sitting cession at the shambhala Buddhist centre, near where I live, and afterword the host gave me many fantastic insights. I was doing it all wrong: I was holding my head too high, shouldn't have had my eyes closed, and I wasn't in the correct mind for focusing on the breath. I now understand that the practice of meditation is to eventually be able to sustain continuous meta-consciousness. Constant awareness of your own inner states. Not as a director, or master, but simply as an observer. To be intellectually aware of what is happening in your own mind, at all times.

This is why the focusing on the breath is so important, because it teaches your mind to sustain longer, and longer periods of continuous focus. This will be the major skill required to ultimately achieve continuous meta-consciousness.

I'm glad you've had a helpful experience.

Personally, I've always seen meditation in putting one's mind to rest. All of the noise normal life causes can become a bit loud from time to time and just taking a minute (or 5 or 60) to completely empty the mind can be incredibly refreshing and calming. Anything after that, including developing metacognition, seems like icing on the cake.

Quote from: "Will"I'm glad you've had a helpful experience.

Personally, I've always seen meditation in putting one's mind to rest. All of the noise normal life causes can become a bit loud from time to time and just taking a minute (or 5 or 60) to completely empty the mind can be incredibly refreshing and calming. Anything after that, including developing metacognition, seems like icing on the cake.

I agree.  It can help settle your mind and calm you down.

Oddly, I gotten my best results sitting cross-legged in a recliner with my eyes closed and focusing on my breathing.  I found that I could reach a state of calm awareness more easily if I focused on my breath rather than how I was sitting.

Meditation can be done sitting, standing,walking or lying down.  In the sitting position one can use the full lotus, the half lotus, the cross ankle, legs to the side or a chair or bench.  In sitting one can keep the eyelids closed, open or partially open.  

The real goal is to maintain focused concentration whether it is on the breath, a mantra, a flame, a tone or on loving kindness (metta).  Concentration is the key.  A well concentrated mind enters a mental state called the jhana.  The earliest stages of jhana are states of bliss.  Those who are very experienced meditators go even beyond jhana and use jhana as a resting place.  The calm of meditation is just the very beginning of what is possible.

The beginnings stages of meditation are as important as any other stage.  In the beginning stages one observes thoughts come and go; feelings come and go; pain and itches come and go.  When I first started to meditate my right eyelid would twitch like crazy.  I stopped focusing on my breath and started to focus on my eyelid.  I observed the twitch.  It would grow stronger and then start to lessen.  Eventually after many minutes, it would start to weaken and then disappear.  One day my twitch did not arrive.  My eyelid stayed calm.  The twitch was gone and never came back.  I still miss it because I could really focus when it was there.

The idea that one can reach a point when they can meditate anywhere at anytime has always fascinated me but it feels unattainable. How can you always remain in that same calm mental state? I've seen buddhists do it, but wow.

Maybe it's extra hard for me because the meds I'm on give me some difficulty breathing.

Quote from: "Sophus"The idea that one can reach a point when they can meditate anywhere at anytime has always fascinated me but it feels unattainable. How can you always remain in that same calm mental state? I've seen buddhists do it, but wow.

Maybe it's extra hard for me because the meds I'm on give me some difficulty breathing.

Observe your breathing whether it is smooth and relaxed or labored and tense.   If you want you can focus on your big toe rather than your breath.  I haven't nearly reached the point where I am always in a calm mental state without concentrating on something, but I can meditate to some extent almost anywhere. The only place so far that I haven't been able to concentrate at all is in an MRI machine.  The noise is just too much for me and I can't move my concentration to another area and have it stay there.

Do the meds affect your general ability to concentrate?  I am on a medication that has made an impact on my meditation.  Now that it's cooler, I should really try walking mediation to see if it helps.

Quote from: "notself"Do the meds affect your general ability to concentrate?

Not really. They just scare me half to death. Some trouble breathing well, frequent chest pains, and the occasional "wtf is my heart doing right now?!".

QuoteNow that it's cooler, I should really try walking mediation to see if it helps.

I enjoy walking daily, though I don't know that the mental state I enter would be considered meditation. Maybe it's just hypnotic - if there's a difference?

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "notself"Do the meds affect your general ability to concentrate?

Not really. They just scare me half to death. Some trouble breathing well, frequent chest pains, and the occasional "wtf is my heart doing right now?!".

QuoteNow that it's cooler, I should really try walking mediation to see if it helps.

I enjoy walking daily, though I don't know that the mental state I enter would be considered meditation. Maybe it's just hypnotic - if there's a difference?

I hope you will be able to find a medication with less side effects or get off the medication altogether.  I look forward to being off my medication in 2.5 years.  I am going to start investigating alternatives if I can find a doctor who is trained in integrative medicine.

Walking meditation is very slow walking with precise movement for about 15-20 feet and then turning around and going back to the beginning ---- back and forth concentrating on the movement of your steps to the exclusion of all else.  I find it very difficult because I want to look around and enjoy the sunshine and the trees.  It is easier for me in a dark hallway of my house.

I am not certain there is a difference between a hypnotic state and deep concentration as long a the hypnotic state meets these definition from Wiki. The bold and strikethrough is mine.

QuoteContrary to a popular misconception - that hypnosis is a form of unconsciousness resembling sleep - contemporary research suggests that it is actually a wakeful state of focused attention[6] [strike:3dhzmftp]and heightened suggestibility[/strike:3dhzmftp],[7] with diminished peripheral awareness.[8] In the first book on the subject, Neurypnology (1843), Braid described "hypnotism" as a state of physical relaxation accompanied and induced by mental concentration ("abstraction").[9]

Quote from: "notself"Meditation can be done sitting, standing,walking or lying down.  In the sitting position one can use the full lotus, the half lotus, the cross ankle, legs to the side or a chair or bench.  In sitting one can keep the eyelids closed, open or partially open.  

The real goal is to maintain focused concentration whether it is on the breath, a mantra, a flame, a tone or on loving kindness (metta).  Concentration is the key.  A well concentrated mind enters a mental state called the jhana.  The earliest stages of jhana are states of bliss.  Those who are very experienced meditators go even beyond jhana and use jhana as a resting place.  The calm of meditation is just the very beginning of what is possible.

The beginnings stages of meditation are as important as any other stage.  In the beginning stages one observes thoughts come and go; feelings come and go; pain and itches come and go.  When I first started to meditate my right eyelid would twitch like crazy.  I stopped focusing on my breath and started to focus on my eyelid.  I observed the twitch.  It would grow stronger and then start to lessen.  Eventually after many minutes, it would start to weaken and then disappear.  One day my twitch did not arrive.  My eyelid stayed calm.  The twitch was gone and never came back.  I still miss it because I could really focus when it was there.

What was profoundly helpful for me was the advice to not force my focus back to breathing when I become aware that my attention has moved, but to just be aware of this state. Continuing to just force the focus would be counter-productive to meta-conscious development, as one would also require the skill of allowing their mind to run its course -- only under perpetuate invigilation.

Breathing exercise in its simplest form is very relaxing.  I have used it on and off, and lately more off than I would care to admit.  When I do use it I have used in anxious situations, while taking a break from work, and while exercising particularly when running.  I also used it while doing a lot of shoveling

It comes in handy for sure.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "notself"Do the meds affect your general ability to concentrate?

Not really. They just scare me half to death. Some trouble breathing well, frequent chest pains, and the occasional "wtf is my heart doing right now?!"

Is that a common side effect?  I've had a similar side effect from Rx cough medicine but turns out it wasn't normal to react that way.  Since I've already had heart surgery as a kid I think I would freak out all the time worrying if I had to take a medication that caused my heart to do weird stuff.  I hope they can get you on something less chemically invasive soon.

Quote from: "Quan Yin"What was profoundly helpful for me was the advice to not force my focus back to breathing when I become aware that my attention has moved, but to just be aware of this state. Continuing to just force the focus would be counter-productive to meta-conscious development, as one would also require the skill of allowing their mind to run its course -- only under perpetuate invigilation.

Perhaps instead of referring to meta-consciousness, it would be more helpful for you to refer to concentration.  Allowing one's focus to go from the breath to the thought is one way of meditating but I believe it slows down the development of a well concentrated mind.  In focusing on the breath, there is no forcing to bring focus back to the breath.  One merely observes that one has left the breath and gently returns to it.  By doing it this way one will develop the ability to observe the "mental pressure" of a thought before it forms.  I know this sounds odd but it is the best explanation I can think of.  When one notes this "pressure" while still focusing on the breath, one is able to maintain focus without interruption.  It is this continuous focus that strengthens and deepens concentration.  Try it for three sessions and see if you can develop the ability to feel the "pressure".  I think you will be surprised and pleased.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "notself"Do the meds affect your general ability to concentrate?

Not really. They just scare me half to death. Some trouble breathing well, frequent chest pains, and the occasional "wtf is my heart doing right now?!"

Is that a common side effect?  I've had a similar side effect from Rx cough medicine but turns out it wasn't normal to react that way.  Since I've already had heart surgery as a kid I think I would freak out all the time worrying if I had to take a medication that caused my heart to do weird stuff.  I hope they can get you on something less chemically invasive soon.

QuoteI hope you will be able to find a medication with less side effects or get off the medication altogether. I look forward to being off my medication in 2.5 years. I am going to start investigating alternatives if I can find a doctor who is trained in integrative medicine.

Thanks. It's been about a four year treatment which is almost up. Will be nice to done with it.

QuoteWalking meditation is very slow walking with precise movement for about 15-20 feet and then turning around and going back to the beginning ---- back and forth concentrating on the movement of your steps to the exclusion of all else. I find it very difficult because I want to look around and enjoy the sunshine and the trees. It is easier for me in a dark hallway of my house.

I am not certain there is a difference between a hypnotic state and deep concentration as long a the hypnotic state meets these definition from Wiki. The bold and strikethrough is mine.

[/quote]
I've thought that the reason why walks help is because they keep part of your brain active. Sort of like when I'm mowing the lawn or working on a painting, I'm engaged in some simple action so the rest of my mind can concentrate on whatever.

Try mindfulness when you walk.  I think we may have talked about this before.  It is my understanding that the word meditation does not appear in the oldest texts.  It is a word that shows up in translation.  The words that are used are Samadhi (concentration) and Sati (mindfulness).  I tried mindfulness when gardening, actually pulling weeds.  I paid attention to the process of pulling weeds to exclusion of all other thoughts.  I observed all my senses as I did this.  I smelled the earth and felt the sun.  I felt the tension and release as I pulled the weeds.  When my thoughts wandered, I brought them back to the object of mindfulness, pulling weeds.  When I finished and stood up, my mind was calm and I observed my surroundings without labels.  My mind observed trees without naming what I saw as trees.  It was a strange experience, but very pleasant.

I would like to ask you what you are taking.  You certainly don't have to answer if you don't wish to.  Just ignore this sentence.  I am taking Arimidex which is an estrogen blocker.  It has dozens and dozens of side effects most of which I have been able to avoid.  But I do have some that will be irreversible.  I have 2 1/2 years to go.

Quote from: "notself"Perhaps instead of referring to meta-consciousness, it would be more helpful for you to refer to concentration.

That would be a lot less specific. Fixed  concentration connotes limited awareness of anything else going on. Meta-consciousness means precisely what I need it to.

QuoteAllowing one's focus to go from the breath to the thought is one way of meditating but I believe it slows down the development of a well concentrated mind.  In focusing on the breath, there is no forcing to bring focus back to the breath.  One merely observes that one has left the breath and gently returns to it.  By doing it this way one will develop the ability to observe the "mental pressure" of a thought before it forms.  I know this sounds odd but it is the best explanation I can think of.  When one notes this "pressure" while still focusing on the breath, one is able to maintain focus without interruption.  It is this continuous focus that strengthens and deepens concentration.  Try it for three sessions and see if you can develop the ability to feel the "pressure".  I think you will be surprised and pleased.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "pressure", that's pretty vague. I've been doing yoga quite regularly for a year now, which requires a constant focus, and control over your breath, as well as posturing, and muscle activation distribution.

The important insight was that in forcing my attention back to the breath,  wasn't paying attention to what severed the connection in the first place. Becoming aware of the new state, before attempting to intervene, to bring the focus back to the breath is very important. This is what I wasn't realizing.

I'll still sick, so I haven't been going to meditation, but I'll try to feel the "pressure" next time I go.

Do you only meditate when in a group?

Quote from: "notself"Do you only meditate when in a group?

No, I meditate myself when I do yoga by the shore. I only have gone to group meditation once, because I am at the point where I would like instruction. I need a Guru.

Quote from: "notself"Try mindfulness when you walk.  I think we may have talked about this before.  It is my understanding that the word meditation does not appear in the oldest texts.  It is a word that shows up in translation.  The words that are used are Samadhi (concentration) and Sati (mindfulness).  I tried mindfulness when gardening, actually pulling weeds.  I paid attention to the process of pulling weeds to exclusion of all other thoughts.  I observed all my senses as I did this.  I smelled the earth and felt the sun.  I felt the tension and release as I pulled the weeds.  When my thoughts wandered, I brought them back to the object of mindfulness, pulling weeds.  When I finished and stood up, my mind was calm and I observed my surroundings without labels.  My mind observed trees without naming what I saw as trees.  It was a strange experience, but very pleasant.

I would like to ask you what you are taking.  You certainly don't have to answer if you don't wish to.  Just ignore this sentence.  I am taking Arimidex which is an estrogen blocker.  It has dozens and dozens of side effects most of which I have been able to avoid.  But I do have some that will be irreversible.  I have 2 1/2 years to go.

Do you know how long you can sustain concentration without interruption? It seems that you are pretty advanced at it. I can barely go five minutes.

Quote from: "Quan Yin"Do you know how long you can sustain concentration without interruption? It seems that you are pretty advanced at it. I can barely go five minutes.

Don't say only five minutes, you are doing very well.  Some days I can't go 5 seconds.  My meditation has been affected by the drug I'm taking.  Before I was on it I lost track of time while meditating.  

I have always used a timer when meditating so I don't think about how long I sit or how much time has passed.  When the bell rings I have a choice of continuing to sit or getting up.  Because I don't think about how much time has passed it is easier for me to keep at it.  I suggest you stop worrying about how long as well.  Westerners are too competitive always wanting to get there fast and be number 1.  Forget about how long you sit or how long you can concentrate.  Ignore it.

Before I was on the medication I had an experience while doing a body survey, which is one of the forty forms of meditative focus.  I believe what I experienced meets the criteria of jhana.  You can google that word to find more about it.  It was beyond description.  I have also had other experiences of mind states.  These are not hallucinations but, in my opinion, they are a reflection of one accessing the right side of the brain; the non-labeling non categorizing side; the side where discursive thinking stops.  I really don't want to go into any more specifics because it is considered very bad form to talk about experiences with anyone but a highly skilled teacher.  

I have never had a teacher since I am the only Theravada Buddhist for hundreds of miles in any direction.  One does not absolutely need a teacher in Theravada.  It is also fortunate that several of the best teachers in the world are on line and have audios and videos.  I also read the actual suttas.  I don't buy books written by people who tell me what the Buddha said.  I read what the Buddha said.  I think about it.  I try to figure it out for my self.  I do encourage you to start reading the suttas as well as meditate and practice mindfulness.

If you wish to see a significant difference in your practice then look up the word metta in the index I have posted.  Read everything you can about metta and start putting it into practice in your daily life.  As far as I am concerned, if you can't get metta down, you can meditate all you want but you will never make progress in ways that really count.  Also look up the Sublime Attitudes or Brahmavirhara and read everything under that topic.  

Best wishes on your journey.

Quote from: "notself"I have never had a teacher since I am the only Theravada Buddhist for hundreds of miles in any direction.  One does not absolutely need a teacher in Theravada.  It is also fortunate that several of the best teachers in the world are on line and have audios and videos.  I also read the actual suttas.  I don't buy books written by people who tell me what the Buddha said.  I read what the Buddha said.  I think about it.  I try to figure it out for my self.  I do encourage you to start reading the suttas as well as meditate and practice mindfulness.

I would advice against just reading translated versions of the suttas. You have to appreciate that they only make sense in context of the time, culture, and region that they were written in. Just reading translations are almost certainly going to facilitate misunderstandings. I would advice reading scholarly analysis of the concepts, and ideas before hand. This will offer perspective, and context, that are not available in the raw literature. Reading the suttas should come only after you have a sufficient grasp of the concepts, and ideas that they are employing.  

QuoteIf you wish to see a significant difference in your practice then look up the word metta in the index I have posted.  Read everything you can about metta and start putting it into practice in your daily life.  As far as I am concerned, if you can't get metta down, you can meditate all you want but you will never make progress in ways that really count.  Also look up the Sublime Attitudes or Brahmavirhara and read everything under that topic.

I'm a vegan, three years in, and vegetarian two years prior. I'm all about love and kindness, notice my signature.

QuoteBest wishes on your journey.

You too.

Quote from: "Quan Yin"I would advice against just reading translated versions of the suttas. You have to appreciate that they only make sense in context of the time, culture, and region that they were written in. Just reading translations are almost certainly going to facilitate misunderstandings. I would advice reading scholarly analysis of the concepts, and ideas before hand. This will offer perspective, and context, that are not available in the raw literature. Reading the suttas should come only after you have a sufficient grasp of the concepts, and ideas that they are employing.  

Do not be concerned about me.  I was considered knowledgeable enough to be one of the moderators of  E-sangha.  Unfortunately it was completely hacked and destroyed through a cyber attack over a year ago.  At the time it was the largest, international Buddhist website in the world.  

The link to the site I provided usually has at least two translations of each sutta.  Most of the suttas are very clear.  There are also commentaries on the suttas and the more complex issues that are the core of Buddhist teachings.  These commentaries were complied around 400 CE from much older texts.   It sounds as though you have never read an actual sutta, that you believe that the teachings are somehow too difficult.  I hope that is not the case.  Some concepts are extremely complex and may take a lifetime to understand fully such as the teachings on co-dependant origination, but most are very pragmatic and straight forward.  

As for understanding the culture and imagery of the time, I have read several histories of the period as well as essays on imagery such as fire, elephants, horses, tigers, rhinoceros, deer and the eight spoked wheel.  I have read about the cultural place of women at the time of the Buddha and what an impact it had to have been when he fully ordained women.
 
I am concerned that you have not read any of the actual teachings so I am going to post my favorite sutta.  It will follow this post.

Quote from: "Quan Yin"

QuoteIf you wish to see a significant difference in your practice then look up the word metta in the index I have posted.  Read everything you can about metta and start putting it into practice in your daily life.  As far as I am concerned, if you can't get metta down, you can meditate all you want but you will never make progress in ways that really count.  Also look up the Sublime Attitudes or Brahmavirhara and read everything under that topic.

I'm a vegan, three years in, and vegetarian two years prior. I'm all about love and kindness, notice my signature.

QuoteBest wishes on your journey.

You too.

Here is one of the suttas on Metta and my favorite translation.  It is the Karaiya Metta Sutta translated by the Amaravati Sangha.  There are four other translations that are available by just clicking on the name of the translators.  Here is the link.  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .amar.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.9.amar.html)


This is what should be done
   By one who is skilled in goodness,
And who knows the path of peace:
   Let them be able and upright,
Straightforward and gentle in speech,
   Humble and not conceited,
Contented and easily satisfied,
   Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways.
Peaceful and calm and wise and skillful,
   Not proud or demanding in nature.
Let them not do the slightest thing
   That the wise would later reprove.
Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
   May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
   Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
   The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
   Those born and to-be-born â€"
May all beings be at ease!

Let none deceive another,
   Or despise any being in any state.
Let none through anger or ill-will
   Wish harm upon another.
Even as a mother protects with her life
   Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
   Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:
   Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
   Outwards and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.
   Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down
Free from drowsiness,
   One should sustain this recollection.
This is said to be the sublime abiding.
   By not holding to fixed views,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision,
   Being freed from all sense desires,
Is not born again into this world.

Quote from: "notself"

Quote from: "Quan Yin"I would advice against just reading translated versions of the suttas. You have to appreciate that they only make sense in context of the time, culture, and region that they were written in. Just reading translations are almost certainly going to facilitate misunderstandings. I would advice reading scholarly analysis of the concepts, and ideas before hand. This will offer perspective, and context, that are not available in the raw literature. Reading the suttas should come only after you have a sufficient grasp of the concepts, and ideas that they are employing.  

Do not be concerned about me.  I was considered knowledgeable enough to be one of the moderators of  E-sangha.  Unfortunately it was completely hacked and destroyed through a cyber attack over a year ago.  At the time it was the largest, international Buddhist website in the world.  

The link to the site I provided usually has at least two translations of each sutta.  Most of the suttas are very clear.  There are also commentaries on the suttas and the more complex issues that are the core of Buddhist teachings.  These commentaries were complied around 400 CE from much older texts.   It sounds as though you have never read an actual sutta, that you believe that the teachings are somehow too difficult.  I hope that is not the case.  Some concepts are extremely complex and may take a lifetime to understand fully such as the teachings on co-dependant origination, but most are very pragmatic and straight forward.  

As for understanding the culture and imagery of the time, I have read several histories of the period as well as essays on imagery such as fire, elephants, horses, tigers, rhinoceros, deer and the eight spoked wheel.  I have read about the cultural place of women at the time of the Buddha and what an impact it had to have been when he fully ordained women.
 
I am concerned that you have not read any of the actual teachings so I am going to post my favorite sutta.  It will follow this post.

You seem to have things figured out. I have a different approach to learning, one that favors grasping the concepts, ideas, and context before hand. Your advice is appreciated. I wasn't attempting to tell you how to go about it, I apologize if you got that impression. I'm sure that you know what you're doing.

No problem.  I know your concern was genuine that is why I shared some of my background.  Would you like some links to essays on the major concepts?  These essays would be from world renowned monks who are predominately American and British although some are from Sri Lanka and Thailand.

Here is one of the first books I read about Buddhism.  It is the autobiography of a Forest Monk who was born in Thailand at the turn of the 20th century.  He followed the Vinaya exactly and lived much as the Buddha himself lived.  One of the most interesting bits is his comments on sleep.  Good stuff.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eauto.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/thate/thateauto.html)

I don't know how old you are but here is a poem written by a nun who began life as a beautiful courtesan and became a Bhikkhuni (fully ordained nun).  Ambapali is one of many women considered highly skilled and enlightened teachers of the dhamma by the Buddha.  Their work is included in the canon. Women under 40 find the poem off-putting.  Women over 50 laugh.  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.13.01.than.html)

Would you mind explaining how you go about grasping concepts, ideas and context without reading the suttas and commentaries?  Do you rely on the explanations of local teachers and discussion groups exclusively?

Quote from: "notself"No problem.  I know your concern was genuine that is why I shared some of my background.  Would you like some links to essays on the major concepts?  These essays would be from world renowned monks who are predominately American and British although some are from Sri Lanka and Thailand.

No thanks, I am proficient enough in the art of google. I've got my way of going about it.

QuoteI don't know how old you are but here is a poem written by a nun who began life as a beautiful courtesan and became a Bhikkhuni (fully ordained nun).  Ambapali is one of many women considered highly skilled and enlightened teachers of the dhamma by the Buddha.  Their work is included in the canon. Women under 40 find the poem off-putting.  Women over 50 laugh.  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.13.01.than.html)

I'm not a woman of any age...

QuoteWould you mind explaining how you go about grasping concepts, ideas and context without reading the suttas and commentaries?  Do you rely on the explanations of local teachers and discussion groups exclusively?

No thanks. I don't respond well to goading, and you have a prominent judgmental, and presuming attitude. I have already been decided a cult member of some kind, a female, and that my methodology must consist of interviewing local practitioners, and then pontificating about what I've heard on message boards. Clearly this type of attitude is not conducive to a constructive discourse.

I fully accept that my perceived ignorance, or arrogance is what has rubbed you the wrong way, but nevertheless, I don't feel that being patronized, and insulted will help me gain knowledge and humility either. Thanks for the offer though.

Quote from: "Quan Yin"No thanks, I am proficient enough in the art of google. I've got my way of going about it.
I'm not a woman of any age...

No thanks. I don't respond well to goading, and you have a prominent judgmental, and presuming attitude. I have already been decided a cult member of some kind, a female, and that my methodology must consist of interviewing local practitioners, and then pontificating about what I've heard on message boards. Clearly this type of attitude is not conducive to a constructive discourse.

I fully accept that my perceived ignorance, or arrogance is what has rubbed you the wrong way, but nevertheless, I don't feel that being patronized, and insulted will help me gain knowledge and humility either. Thanks for the offer though.

I mistook you for a woman because Quan Yin is usually depicted as a woman and is often referred to as the goddess of compassion.  I missed the note under your avatar.  I should have paid more attention.

I can see how you can think I was goading you. I did ask several times where you get your information about Buddhism.  Your posts on other threads were so off the mark of what the Buddha taught and you were so reluctant to respond with any sources, I was concerned you were involved with a cult.  There are several floating around and they damage a lot of people.  

I have not been patronizing to you.    I have not been pontificating when I offer to provide you with links on what the teachings actually say.  I was trying to provide you with accurate information.  Clearly we are not communicating in a productive or beneficial manner.  

Best wishes on your journey.  If you decide to comment on any of the links I have already provided, I will be happy to resume the discussion.

Metta,
notself