Happy Atheist Forum

In all the years that I have been an atheist, I have never met a black atheist. I am your typical Caucasian male atheist, by the way. Is this purely an educational level or intellectual thing? Is it a social thing where black families raise their children to be Christian and none of these children break away from religion as so many of us atheists have done? Are black people generally more spiritual?

The main thing I have noticed throughout my discussions with both atheists and Christians (both white and black) is that the atheists are ALWAYS more intellectual. They read prolifically and intelligently inquire into everything. They are natural skeptics who base everything on logic and reason. This is not to say that there are absolutely no intelligent Christians. But still, the atheists that I have conversed with ALWAYS seem to have a higher educational level than the Christians that I have been around. Every single time.

There are many college educated black people out there and I'm sure they are well educated but are any of them atheists? I would LOVE to meet some black atheists and get their views on what it is like living in a Christian dominated America. Not to stereotype, but every black person that I have talked to is ALWAYS Christian, every single time. There are several black people at my work and I am friends with many of them and every single one of them are Christian. Are there any black atheists on this forum? Do any of my fellow atheists here know of any black atheists living in America?

We have a few black atheists right here on HAF  

We have black atheists, they don't necessarily label themselves as such, but we have them.
I'm not aware of any female black atheists living in the USA on the forum.

Excellent! That's good news. I would like them to post here so I can get to know and chat with them.

Well, you will certainly appreciate that your title is factually incorrect, I think we have a couple of black atheists on this forum in fact.

The main thrust of your post seems to be about intelligence. While it seems to be true that atheists tend to have higher IQs and there is some research that suggests the average IQ amongst black people is lower than that of white people, this is an area that could probably do with a bucket load of of caveats ( IQ=/=intelligence, correlation=/=causation to name but two).

If we accepted that white people tend to be more intelligent than black people, and being more intelligent tends to increase the likelihood of one leaving their religion, then this disparity in intelligence would certainly explain at least some of the disparity in theism rates you notice (though again, sample size caveats, having said that other people on the forum have also noted the high theism rates amongst black people). Interestingly, if we also consider the heritability of intelligence, then this gap could well widen in time, as irreligious parents would (I presume) raise kids who are less likely to religious.

I think it should also be noted though, that it takes a lot more than intelligence to break away from religion, which is why you see so many college educated Christians (cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing), also, certain aspects of the culture black people find themselves in may discourage one from dissenting with regards to religion, which could also explain part of the trend you notice.


Edit: too slow, I thought I was first  
Of course, I may have read your post wrong, and the points I make may have no relevance to your line of reasoning, in which case, I apologise.

QuoteI may have read your post wrong, and the points I make may have no relevance to your line of reasoning, in which case, I apologise

No SSY, you made some good points. I appreciate your input and I agree:

Quoteit takes a lot more than intelligence to break away from religion

Just looking for some ideas on why every black person I seem to meet is a proud Christian.

I have never met a black atheist in real life. But we have at least 3 here to my knowledge.

I am a Black Atheist, and I will tell you it is rare, for a number of historical and cultural reasons, african americans tend to be more religious and it perpetuates through generations.

Quote from: "keith2004":D I am a Black Atheist, and I will tell you it is rare, for a number of historical and cultural reasons, african americans tend to be more religious and it perpetuates through generations.

And Keith makes 4  

Hi Keith2004!

It's really great to see you here. I am a white atheist living in the southern US (Texas). I can tell you that it's very difficult sometimes being an atheist here. It seems like everyone I come in contact with is a Christian, regardless of race. I noticed that you live in Maryland. I would imagine that it would be a little better living up north away from the bible belt. Down here, there are Christian churches on every block it seems. Someone is always mentioning something about Jesus around here too. I can't even read a book in my lunch room at work without someone asking me if I have ever read the bible instead of what I was reading. I couldn't believe someone would ask me that. I believe that he soon regretted asking me that when I revealed myself as an atheist and we began talking about religion. It's funny because this guy had the bible in his hand and I had a book called "Biblical Nonsense" by Dr. Jason Long that I was reading.

Also, my entire family (even my own wife) is Christian. We just don't talk about religion. She is fully aware that I am an atheist. We just don't talk about religion and that works for us. She goes to church most Sundays while I stay home or I meet them later on for lunch after church. Do you have to deal with things like that? Is most of your family Christian? I've at least heard of black men atheists and it's so nice to be able to chat with you but tell me, why is it that there seems to be no black women atheists?

I am fairly certain that the main reason for the discrepancy in the religiousness between Caucasian-Americans and African-Americans is the country's history of slavery. The Christian faith was something that was pushed upon slaves. Many slave-owners viewed it as their duty to Christianize their slaves and be their "guides" to heaven. Thus, their faith became the one semblance of freedom and independence that slaves had. Then, when slavery was abolished, the Christian Church was really the only thing whites did not fervently try to keep from blacks. It became the center for solidarity among African-Americans. That's also why the civil rights movement was led (on the African-American side) mainly by religious leaders.

Good point Essej. That makes sense.

I think blacks have greater social pressure to remain in the closet on their atheism (and homosexuality for that matter) because of the high pressure the black community puts on them to be religious; it's a cultural issue rather than a race issue.  I think this is also why you don't hear of many atheists/homosexuals who have spent their whole life in a small town...the culture makes it hard to be open or to even be at a mental place where you feel safe to question.

Quote from: "lundberg500"In all the years that I have been an atheist, I have never met a black atheist. I am your typical Caucasian male atheist, by the way. Is this purely an educational level or intellectual thing? Is it a social thing where black families raise their children to be Christian and none of these children break away from religion as so many of us atheists have done? Are black people generally more spiritual?

The main thing I have noticed throughout my discussions with both atheists and Christians (both white and black) is that the atheists are ALWAYS more intellectual. They read prolifically and intelligently inquire into everything. They are natural skeptics who base everything on logic and reason. This is not to say that there are absolutely no intelligent Christians. But still, the atheists that I have conversed with ALWAYS seem to have a higher educational level than the Christians that I have been around. Every single time.

There are many college educated black people out there and I'm sure they are well educated but are any of them atheists? I would LOVE to meet some black atheists and get their views on what it is like living in a Christian dominated America. Not to stereotype, but every black person that I have talked to is ALWAYS Christian, every single time. There are several black people at my work and I am friends with many of them and every single one of them are Christian. Are there any black atheists on this forum? Do any of my fellow atheists here know of any black atheists living in America?

I moved to australia this year but I was born and raised in america. I can tell you the issue is not an intellectual issue but an issue of culture.The black church has taken credit for nearly every civil rights advancement in the black american community, They are the most vocal about community outreach,and they take credit for any moral advances. The church is seen as the pillar of the community. In a minority community any deviation from the group is frowned upon because the group already feels marginalized. One must also take into account the indoctrination of christianity into the slave community. Slaves felt that only the christian god could save them from their plight which is ironic considering what the bible has to say about the issue of owning people..... in short most black atheists especially females keep silent about their atheist because of the social pressures. No one I know wants to be the minority within the minority.

Hi NothingSacred,

It's great to hear from a black female atheist. I wish there were more people like you here where I live. I would like to be able to talk to an intelligent, logical, and reasonable person like yourself about religion.

Quotein short most black atheists especially females keep silent about their atheist because of the social pressures. No one I know wants to be the minority within the minority.

I guess I can understand this, to some degree. As an atheist, I know that my views are not what most people believe, especially down here in the south. But, I don't go to church with everyone else and if someone asks me about religion then I proudly claim my atheism and will not back down. Granted now, I do keep quite about my atheism until I am addressed about religion. I don't go around telling everyone that I am atheist. What if someone asks you about your religious views? Would you lie about it just to fit in with the community? I could never do that. But, I do understand keeping quite about it until you are pressed.

QuoteSlaves felt that only the christian god could save them from their plight which is ironic considering what the bible has to say about the issue of owning people

I agree. This is something I have never understood. The bible refers to slavery over and over again, even in the new testament:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ" Ephesians 6:5

Considering the history of slavery in America, how can black people over look verses like this?

It used to be annoying (socially) being a black atheist, but now I think the biggest problem is dating.  It's tough out there for a black atheist male.

I know a quite a few black atheists personally. Living in the UK however, where there is a higher proportion of atheists in general, this is probably not all that uncommon. The singer in my band is a black lesbian atheist!

Even over here it does seem that black people do seem more religeous in general though..

I'm a black atheist.  I'm pretty rare in the US.  

One of the problems is a lack of Black role models.  The guy generally considered to be the epitome of Black intelligence is Cornell West.  Obviously, there are likely lots of black people smarter than he is.  Nonetheless, he's our "smart guy".  He's very Christian.  Obama is Christian. Oprah believes in God too. Nearly all of the black sports stars thank God for every touchdown or dunk.

BET sucks.  They show raunchy videos and silly reality shows like MTV.  However, in the morning, BET shows preachers preaching gospel.  I couldn't imagine MTV shoving Christianity down the throats of it's viewers, but it seems quite normal for a black channel to do it.  Most black people I know watch BET.  

Every nearly every movie with a black cast, Christianity is a theme. Coming to Christ is often depicted as a happy ending. I have friends that will only see a "white" film if there aren't any "black" ones showing at the theater.  I once had to leave a chick at the theater because Tyler Perry wasn't getting my 20 god damn dollars.  If you don't know he is an alleged  closeted gay black film maker who's simplistic storylines almost always have a healthy dose of God.  He's quite popular.  I personally think he can't come out of the closet because as Whitney noted, that's likely not a good career move if you are in black entertainment.

There are many other reasons I think US blacks are so into the Jesus thing, but I've rambled enough.

Quote from: "lundberg500"Hi Keith2004!

It's really great to see you here. I am a white atheist living in the southern US (Texas). I can tell you that it's very difficult sometimes being an atheist here. It seems like everyone I come in contact with is a Christian, regardless of race. I noticed that you live in Maryland. I would imagine that it would be a little better living up north away from the bible belt. Down here, there are Christian churches on every block it seems. Someone is always mentioning something about Jesus around here too. I can't even read a book in my lunch room at work without someone asking me if I have ever read the bible instead of what I was reading. I couldn't believe someone would ask me that. I believe that he soon regretted asking me that when I revealed myself as an atheist and we began talking about religion. It's funny because this guy had the bible in his hand and I had a book called "Biblical Nonsense" by Dr. Jason Long that I was reading.

Also, my entire family (even my own wife) is Christian. We just don't talk about religion. She is fully aware that I am an atheist. We just don't talk about religion and that works for us. She goes to church most Sundays while I stay home or I meet them later on for lunch after church. Do you have to deal with things like that? Is most of your family Christian? I've at least heard of black men atheists and it's so nice to be able to chat with you but tell me, why is it that there seems to be no black women atheists?

Living in the Washington DC metro area, I am in an environment that is very open to non-beleivers. An with the high percentage of college proffesionals It was easy to find like minded friends. I definately read books like "God Delusion", and "Atheist Universe" in public with impunity. I feel you pain, I grew up in a very religious, conservative environment in Jamaica and Florida, before I moved to Maryland. My Father is a Pastor, and my Mother is the Principal of a Church School. 90% of my family is christian, so to keep the peace I dont speak on religion around them.

I dated a black girl who was Atheist (a pastors daughter)....but Life events convinced her to return to religion. The person I am with (also black) in not religious, but they beleive there is some kind of god.
I have met black men and women who are atheist, but they are both rare, again I think this goes back to the culture and how many Black families are raised in the church, and its just taboo to be anything but christian. I havent seen a clear distincition between the amount of male and female atheist in the African American community, but traditions hold strong and even tho the county I live in is 67% black, I rarely meet black atheists.

*is black*  

There are six black atheists.  Four of them post here.  The other two are unaccounted-for; they haven't reported in lately.

Normally,( and in a sober mindset) I would not take the energy to make my race known, given that I find it ultimately superfluous and irrelevant. However, I will give in on this particular thread I suppose.  Here is another  

I'm white, but I haven't ever really noticed before that black atheists are more rare than white atheists, that is to say within their respective race. Atheists are already a minority so I figure it would be expectedly more difficult to find a minority within a minority. So as far as number go there may be more white atheists, but percentage wise I can't imagine there would be a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong.

Quote from: "George"I know a quite a few black atheists personally. Living in the UK however, where there is a higher proportion of atheists in general, this is probably not all that uncommon. The singer in my band is a black lesbian atheist!

Even over here it does seem that black people do seem more religeous in general though..

I'm not saying your comment isn't true, it's just that, where i live, the proportion of atheists to religious people seems pretty steady regardless of skin colour or gender. I know a few black and asian atheists. In fact, i only know three religious people and only one of them goes to church.

Quote from: "Sophus"I'm white, but I haven't ever really noticed before that black atheists are more rare than white atheists, that is to say within their respective race. Atheists are already a minority so I figure it would be expectedly more difficult to find a minority within a minority. So as far as number go there may be more white atheists, but percentage wise I can't imagine there would be a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong.

How many black people do you know?  I can only speak for my experience in the US, but here, yes, you would be wrong.  It seems things are a little more reasonable across the pond.  Maybe I should move.

Quote from: "karadan"I'm not saying your comment isn't true, it's just that, where i live, the proportion of atheists to religious people seems pretty steady regardless of skin colour or gender. I know a few black and asian atheists. In fact, i only know three religious people and only one of them goes to church.

If you're referring to my comment that even over here black people seem to be more religious in general, I'm not sure if it's true either, thats just the way it seems to me. Thinking about it I'm not even sure why it seems that way to me, none of my black friends are religious. I live up north these days but I lived in Brixton, London for a few years very close to a couple of churches with practically all black congregations, of which many of my neighbours were members. There were also loads of black street preachers in Brixton that I'd hear every day on  my way to and from work. Anyway maybe these experiences influenced my opinion and lead me to think that black people were more religious, having thought about it now I realize that this isn't justification for such a generalisation!  

I have to say that this is very good news. I appreciate the people here who have let their race be known and proudly claim that they are atheists. Most all black atheists seem to be from the US west coast or up north. I never find any black atheists here in the southern US. I really have never met a black person here in Texas that is not a christian. It happens every time for me. Maybe I should move up north where it is more acceptable to be a free thinker.

*raises hand*

Black male atheist here, from and living in Chicago. Yeah, we're like unicorns it seems. I believe it's a cultural thing, i've yet to meet another black atheist in person. I feel like an exile all the time when i'm talking to friends, it's not just that they follow Christianity though, I think the culture sets blacks up to be gullible. I know several friends who think that spirits live in water because a friend from Africa told them so and believed it. Back in highschool, someone told a similar story that related Mohammed, half that class are still Muslims. In the south it's even worse, oh man, they sound like broken records out there, the general consensus is  that science is bad, god is good. I can't remember how many people told me that evolution is just a theory and I had to facepalm then explain to them the difference between a theory and a scientific theory, it just went over their heads. This is thanks to many blacks receiving a piss poor education. I wish that wasn't the case, I can't remember how many black women i've been attracted to and don't even bother to make a move after talking to them for 30 seconds and realizing that it could never work, something my family has also criticized me about since the only women they have ever seen me with have been latino or white which makes them facepalm.

Are there any...Jewish Atheists?  I say it that way because Judaism seems to be an ethnicity/religion/lifestyle.  I have a friend who does not go to temple, does not believe in god, but still participates in 'The Tribe' functions as he calls it.  
I wonder if a similar distinction can be made within the black community.  Maybe to blacks, Christianity is like Judaism in that respect...that it is their ethnic/cultural duty to participate.
Cornell West definitely bothers me.  The man is a genius no doubt...I can only imagine that he fell victim to extremely deep indoctrination during his formative years; so much, that he cannot change his mind on the subject.

I don't think Obama is a true believer.  I think he's being a politician.  I feel that many politicians are closet atheists, but they know that the "40-percenters" (Dawkins) control the vote.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"

Quote from: "Sophus"I'm white, but I haven't ever really noticed before that black atheists are more rare than white atheists, that is to say within their respective race. Atheists are already a minority so I figure it would be expectedly more difficult to find a minority within a minority. So as far as number go there may be more white atheists, but percentage wise I can't imagine there would be a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong.

How many black people do you know?  I can only speak for my experience in the US, but here, yes, you would be wrong.  It seems things are a little more reasonable across the pond.  Maybe I should move.

If I only went by personal experience/who I know, I would think white atheists are just as rare. You may very well be right, but I would rather see a scientific survey before coming to any conclusions.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"

Quote from: "Sophus"I'm white, but I haven't ever really noticed before that black atheists are more rare than white atheists, that is to say within their respective race. Atheists are already a minority so I figure it would be expectedly more difficult to find a minority within a minority. So as far as number go there may be more white atheists, but percentage wise I can't imagine there would be a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong.

How many black people do you know?  I can only speak for my experience in the US, but here, yes, you would be wrong.  It seems things are a little more reasonable across the pond.  Maybe I should move.

If I only went by personal experience/who I know, I would think white atheists are just as rare. You may very well be right, but I would rather see a scientific survey before coming to any conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
Take from this what you will...I noticed many many "citation needed".  As time goes by and more people begin raising their children in secular households, I'm sure the trends we all seek will begin to appear.  Patience

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"

Quote from: "Sophus"I'm white, but I haven't ever really noticed before that black atheists are more rare than white atheists, that is to say within their respective race. Atheists are already a minority so I figure it would be expectedly more difficult to find a minority within a minority. So as far as number go there may be more white atheists, but percentage wise I can't imagine there would be a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong.

How many black people do you know?  I can only speak for my experience in the US, but here, yes, you would be wrong.  It seems things are a little more reasonable across the pond.  Maybe I should move.

If I only went by personal experience/who I know, I would think white atheists are just as rare. You may very well be right, but I would rather see a scientific survey before coming to any conclusions.

Yes, this is what I would like to discuss.  I'm not trying to sound like a fundie or anything, but is it common for people to avoid coming to conclusions until they see a scientific study?  I hope I'm wording this correctly.  I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

Doe the fact that Wikipedia states that blacks generally are more religious than whites and Asians in the US count as more conclusive evidence than personal experience?

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"There are six black atheists.  Four of them post here.  The other two are unaccounted-for; they haven't reported in lately.

I had a meeting with them............ in Compton.

Quote from: "TheWilliam"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"There are six black atheists.  Four of them post here.  The other two are unaccounted-for; they haven't reported in lately.

I had a meeting with them............ in Compton.

I'm callin' 6-6-6 on a motha f'in priest!

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Yes, this is what I would like to discuss.  I'm not trying to sound like a fundie or anything, but is it common for people to avoid coming to conclusions until they see a scientific study?  I hope I'm wording this correctly.  I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

Doe the fact that Wikipedia states that blacks generally are more religious than whites and Asians in the US count as more conclusive evidence than personal experience?

Like I said, I could very well be wrong. Do you have a link to that page?

I am a Black atheist. I have actually been contemplating about this topic myself lately. I am currently doing research to write a book about black faith in America. I grew up as a Muslim but since an overwhelming majority of Blacks are some form of Christian, I was always aware of the deep religious roots of my people. During my research I have found that Blacks tend to be the most dogmatically religious group in America. Black people go to church more, prey more, and consider God a very important part of their lives. I had to deal with being grilled about the nature of my beliefs when I was growing up often. Black Christians often looked down on me. In that way they set me down my path to intellectual and spiritual freedom. They made me question why I was a Muslim (especially considering I knew virtually nothing about the religion at the age of 16). After I saw first hand how Muslim women are treated I decided it was not for me because in my eyes a religion is responsible for the culture that springs up around it as well.

It is not enough to just say, "Oh, well we don't teach that. That is just a poor interpretation." Bullshit. So after that I tried to be a Catholic but it always threw me off because the guy who headed the choir was clearly gay and looked just like Bob Vila. I can remember when I got really critical of Christianity and having almost no one to answer my burning questions. When I was a Muslim, one girl in particular (who was a very devout Christian) told me that I was going to hell, in so many words. I can remember forming my first unanswerable question. If I have never heard of your religion and died would I still go to hell? I have never gotten a satifactory answer for this question yet. In a religious conversation, before I fully educated myself to the entire argument, this was my major trump card. Simply put, most Christians either do not know or understand that it is very wicked to send someone to eternal damnation because of their unwilling ignorance to your superstition. I asked my mom that same question and she told me that God could do what ever the hell he wanted . It was all down hill from there.

I guess the biggest issue I want to explore is what role religion has played in crippling the Black race in America. We traded physical slavery for mental slavery, it seems to me. Or should I say we dropped the physical slavery and kept the mental slavery. It is the most disturbing and heartbreaking form of Stockholm Syndrome in recorded history, in my opinion. We were brought here, stripped of our status as human beings, our culture destroyed, and our families torn apart. After a couple of hundred years of this, slave owners decided Blacks had souls too. Rejoicing at any opportunity to not be viciously monitored and to have some portion of the Black person seen as equal, many Blacks embraced the white ( and somehow Middle-Eastern) savior. The original use of providing a sense of togetherness and community still remains today. Perhaps this is the major reason that Blacks are so irrationally tied to Christianity. It has historically been one of the few institutions of respite and autonomy for Blacks. It is today one of the few places where Blacks can see some semblance of a community among our fractured and warring tribes.

We are today still crippled by economic segregation and self hatred. I did not understand why Black Americans hate themselves so much until recently (in lieu of my research). After the end of slavery American media started an assault on all Black Americans. This involved the segregation, racial steryotyping, and murdering of Blacks. In particular the Black male suffered the greatest. The majority of Black targeted racial sterytypes were aimed at breaking the Black man. The Nigger, the Coon, the Brute, the Nat, the Tom, and the Golliwog all served to limit and marginalize black men. Black men were (and largley still are) seen as lazy, unintelligent, animalistic, and hate-filled. If they are not Whites and Blacks alike will label you a Tom. Someone who wants to desperately please Whites or to be distant from what it is to be Black. These stereotypes have destroyed the will of Black men in America and in turn destroyed the Black family. The Black marriage follows and children after that.

It is a fact that White man with a criminal record will be picked for a job faster than a Black man with no criminal record (see the Princeton research link below for the details). Black women are the most trampled upon demographic in the United States. Black children receive the poorest educations. This is backed by having fewer qualified teachers, older text books, more crowded classrooms, and worst school conditions than their White counterparts. My point is that Black people as a whole have almost nothing in America. Nothing but faith. Faith has allowed my people hope. Hope to be treated equally. That is virtually the only thing left in the Black community that is positive. I am not saying that there are no successful Blacks or that there are no good Black neighborhoods but from a broad perspective, Blacks situations have changed very little since 1964. Until Blacks are empowered in the same way that Whites and Asians are in this country (and in the next 10 years Latinos), Black faith will remain unbreakable. "The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." It breaks my heart that this full quote rings so true about my people. That is why it is my signature. I know this is a long winded post. Thanks to anyone who made it to the bottom but I figured I should just give all my thoughts on the subject while I was already started. I will leave some very interesting links that I hope some of you will check out. Feel free to tell me what you think.

http://paa2005.princeton.edu/download.a ... onId=50874 (http://paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=50874) (this is really good stuff. This is in the "liberal" part of New York that this experiment was conducted)

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/menu.htm (http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/menu.htm) (read all about the racial stereotypes that were drilled into the minds of American's since the radio era. You will be surprised how many of these concoctions are still believed today and wholly based on lies.)

I'm a Baptist atheist.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Yes, this is what I would like to discuss.  I'm not trying to sound like a fundie or anything, but is it common for people to avoid coming to conclusions until they see a scientific study?  I hope I'm wording this correctly.  I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

Doe the fact that Wikipedia states that blacks generally are more religious than whites and Asians in the US count as more conclusive evidence than personal experience?

Like I said, I could very well be wrong. Do you have a link to that page?

My question wasn't about rightness or wrongness.  My question was about the value of certain sources.  

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism)

it's the same link shown above.

Quote from: "radicalaggrivation"I am a Black atheist. I have actually been contemplating about this topic myself lately. I am currently doing research to write a book about black faith in America. I grew up as a Muslim but since an overwhelming majority of Blacks are some form of Christian, I was always aware of the deep religious roots of my people. During my research I have found that Blacks tend to be the most dogmatically religious group in America. Black people go to church more, prey more, and consider God a very important part of their lives. I had to deal with being grilled about the nature of my beliefs when I was growing up often. Black Christians often looked down on me. In that way they set me down my path to intellectual and spiritual freedom. They made me question why I was a Muslim (especially considering I knew virtually nothing about the religion at the age of 16). After I saw first hand how Muslim women are treated I decided it was not for me because in my eyes a religion is responsible for the culture that springs up around it as well.

It is not enough to just say, "Oh, well we don't teach that. That is just a poor interpretation." Bullshit. So after that I tried to be a Catholic but it always threw me off because the guy who headed the choir was clearly gay and looked just like Bob Vila. I can remember when I got really critical of Christianity and having almost no one to answer my burning questions. When I was a Muslim, one girl in particular (who was a very devout Christian) told me that I was going to hell, in so many words. I can remember forming my first unanswerable question. If I have never heard of your religion and died would I still go to hell? I have never gotten a satifactory answer for this question yet. In a religious conversation, before I fully educated myself to the entire argument, this was my major trump card. Simply put, most Christians either do not know or understand that it is very wicked to send someone to eternal damnation because of their unwilling ignorance to your superstition. I asked my mom that same question and she told me that God could do what ever the hell he wanted :D

I think your right on with the reasons why Blacks are more dogmatic, its embeded so deep in the culture that many would never think to question it

Quote from: "radicalaggrivation"http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/menu.htm (http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/menu.htm) (read all about the racial stereotypes that were drilled into the minds of American's since the radio era. You will be surprised how many of these concoctions are still believed today and wholly based on lies.)

What an interesting site, a lot of the racist cartoons I remember seeing as a child and not even realizing they were racist. Similarly I only recently found out the origins of the childhood rhyme 'eenie meenie miney mo catch a tigger by its toe'
I can't begin to imagine how being on the recieving end of this sort of thing must have felt for black kids growing up. Racism is an ugly thing.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Yes, this is what I would like to discuss.  I'm not trying to sound like a fundie or anything, but is it common for people to avoid coming to conclusions until they see a scientific study?  I hope I'm wording this correctly.  I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

Doe the fact that Wikipedia states that blacks generally are more religious than whites and Asians in the US count as more conclusive evidence than personal experience?

Like I said, I could very well be wrong. Do you have a link to that page?

My question wasn't about rightness or wrongness.  My question was about the value of certain sources.  

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism)

it's the same link shown above.

I'd say Dr. Barry Alexander Kosmin, and Ariela Keysar (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Kw979d4r1LYC&oi=fnd&pg=PA33&dq=atheism+age&ots=K7KO0Fgg8q&sig=rD-eDBinFM-eWGSSZNKdc8KUzso#v=onepage&q=african&f=false) are valid sources. I'll concede here.

Wikipedia alone isn't all that reliable but their sources are often good.  

To answer the topical question with another question; "would you be more compelled to remain religious if you went to a black church as opposed to a white church?"

I don't mean to imply that because we perceive black churches as being more entertaining that they will be more religious than other groups because of such. It's just that the culture of black people in America has built internal, separate cultures upon a very strong, fervent foundation of religion. As far as I can tell, radicalaggrivation has by far the most insightful post on this topic so far. I can't comment on why it is that black Americans tend to be more religious than other groups. All I would have to say is that black people if anything should feel more compelled to denounce Christianity given how powerful slave holders used it to justify such a practice and how it was deliberately imposed onto incoming slaves from Africa as well as their posterity.

The question I would like to have answered is that "do black people in the US and in America ever consider Christianity to be a remnant of external imposition onto them?" How many black people see Christianity as something forced upon them and their ancestors rather than something they as a group chose for themselves?

The black culture in the US is so strongly built upon religion and yet I can't see how it would not be seen as something denounce due to its role in oppressing black people throughout the centuries. Do they for some reason see it as 'their own' and that's it's separate from white ritualization of Christianity? I honestly have no clue and would like to know more.

Quote from: "DropLogic"Are there any...Jewish Atheists?

Me. Also a large majority of my Jewish friends who I grew up with. None of them are interested enough to participate in an atheist forum - they just don't have any belief in a god. The community of friends I am talking about are all educated to graduate level, incidentally. The majority of my friends from outside the Jewish community, who are mostly white and from a C of E background, are also non-believers.

Quote from: "DropLogic"I say it that way because Judaism seems to be an ethnicity/religion/lifestyle.  I have a friend who does not go to temple, does not believe in god, but still participates in 'The Tribe' functions as he calls it.

Yes, I can relate to this. I participate in "The Tribe" functions (great phrase!) to the extent that it keeps my wife happy (she's observant) - so I take part in family functions insofar as I turn up, but I don't take any part in ceremonies, other than to keep politely quiet whilst others are doing what they do.

For many people, Judaism is a religion more of doing than believing. People attend services, observe the holy days and keep a kosher diet without really giving much thought to why or to what it means or represents - what seems to drive it is the cultural traditions more than any belief system. I think that's healthier on balance than buying into the myth, but it does depend on what the traditions are that are being preserved.

My non-Jewish friends who are atheist mostly don't observe anything, unless you regard exchanging Christmas cards as a religious observance. Then again, I exchange Christmas cards.

Quote from: "DropLogic"Maybe to blacks, Christianity is like Judaism in that respect...that it is their ethnic/cultural duty to participate.

That's an interesting question that perhaps those in the black community can answer, for themselves at least - from what I read here it seems like there's at least an element of that. However, I do observe something similar with a friend at work who is Hindu. Periodically he comes into the office and announces that he's fasting, and can't eat meat for a week, or his hands are painted with henna, or he's wearing coloured cords on his wrist. I always ask him why (because I'm interested) and he never knows. He doesn't actually care why, as far as I can tell. He just does it because it's what he's always done, and it's what his family does and has always done. That doesn't seem like a very good reason to me, but as the practises he observes are not remotely harmful it's not something I'd challenge. Still, it's a potentially dangerous mindset, I think.

I also work with a Young Earth Creationist, a well educated, intelligent, middle-aged, white, working class man, with a degree in chemistry. He doesn't seem to particularly have any observances (other than making the occasional disparaging remark about gay people, which generally leads to some dispute). His religion is very much about what he believes, rather than what he does. He's more than happy to debate - we've done the flood, and dinosaurs, and evolution and of course his position is unshakeable in the face of any or all arguments.

I do find his point of view both more scary and more difficult to understand than those who observe but don't have a strong belief.

Quote from: "TheWilliam"It used to be annoying (socially) being a black atheist, but now I think the biggest problem is dating.  It's tough out there for a black atheist male.

you sound retarded at times. Are you?  

Quote from: "Ã¥scertain"

Quote from: "TheWilliam"It used to be annoying (socially) being a black atheist, but now I think the biggest problem is dating.  It's tough out there for a black atheist male.

you sound retarded at times. Are you?  

How wude! As Jar Jar Binks would say. Seriously that's really not the sort of comment we have come to expect from members here. What on earth were you thinking when you wrote it?

Quote from: "Ã¥scertain"

Quote from: "TheWilliam"It used to be annoying (socially) being a black atheist, but now I think the biggest problem is dating.  It's tough out there for a black atheist male.

you sound retarded at times. Are you?  

Congratulations...you just received a forum warning.  Btw, if the above comment was because you are a racist (and I'm inclined to think it was since TheWilliam has not posted anything "retarded" on the forum) I suggest you just not come back to the forum.

QuoteTheWilliam wrote: It used to be annoying (socially) being a black atheist, but now I think the biggest problem is dating. It's tough out there for a black atheist male.

you sound retarded at times. Are you?

This comment by ascertain was extremely rude and very uncalled for. I agree with TheWilliam completely. It would be tough for any atheist, regardless of race, to find a compatible mate out there.

I like TheWilliam.  Sonofabitch cracks me up, and thinks in tangents, which I like.

There's an interesting discussion on this subject at the Richard Dawkins' website: http://richarddawkins.net/videos/536413-dialogue-of-reason-science-and-faith-in-the-black-community

There is a facebook group called african american humanists (aah) you should take a look its pretty good. I just found it myself.

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier but Oprah Winfrey left Christianity for New Age Deism didn't she? Not an atheist, but still, that takes some guts, right? I mean, the Christians have been blasting her ever since.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/oprah-fool.htm (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/oprah-fool.htm)

(very) long time reader, first time poster, this thread made me want to register. Black Atheist 27 year old male from little rock, AR

Quote from: "macktheknife"(very) long time reader, first time poster, this thread made me want to register. Black Atheist 27 year old male from little rock, AR

Have you met the Clintons, I hear they hang out there sometimes  

Welcome aboard !

Regards
Chris

Macktheknife, very glad to see you here.  

I'm also from the south (Texas). I'm sure you know that it can be VERY difficult  sometimes to be an atheist in the south.

Welcome!

Quote from: "Sophus"I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier but Oprah Winfrey left Christianity for New Age Deism didn't she? Not an atheist, but still, that takes some guts, right? I mean, the Christians have been blasting her ever since.

Oprah has a group of followers even the best of cult leaders would be jealous of...I don't think it takes much courage to do whatever you want when you are that popular.

I don't know much about her beliefs but am not sure that The Secret and Deism are compatible.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Sophus"I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier but Oprah Winfrey left Christianity for New Age Deism didn't she? Not an atheist, but still, that takes some guts, right? I mean, the Christians have been blasting her ever since.

Oprah has a group of followers even the best of cult leaders would be jealous of...I don't think it takes much courage to do whatever you want when you are that popular.

I don't know much about her beliefs but am not sure that The Secret and Deism are compatible.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flib.store.yahoo.net%2Flib%2Fdemotivators%2Fthesecretdemotivationalposter.jpg&hash=f42a31855704a536b22495f2d1ccf99eef26ec1f)

I like to call The Secret by its other name: "wishful thinking."

Oprah was allied with Eckhart Tolle, the Power of Now guy. I don't know about now. I do know that she took a lot of flak for denying that Jesus is the One True Path(TM) when she had Tolle on her show, which pissed off a lot her fans.

I've read a few of Tolle's books, and I liked some of his ideas. Warning bells did sound when started cashing in on TPoN though.  

I found this forum literally 30 minutes ago and just had to post!
I am in deed Black, female, and 19 yrs old. I also unfortunately live in a very southern conservative town in west central Florida. Admittedly, I am an Atheist, but I cannot really tell anyone that. My mom would be soooo disappointed, look at me differently, and say repeatedly that she has failed me blah blah blah... She said this before when I was younger, after asking me tons of religious questions when I couldn’t seem to let go of some of the un answered questions about her, my, our entire family's understanding of religion.  (I was in elementary and this was around the time when I was praying to God not to let me wake up in the morning) I was one depressed little girl. I don't know anyone who is atheist actually.

** Just the other day a friend from school was telling me about a mutual friends family barbeque and how her and some others were talking amongst themselves and a kid walked up and said they were atheist and they all up and moved away from him...needless to say she thought it was so very amusing. So yup, no one has outright asked me my beliefs lately, so i have not said the words but when they do. I wont hesitate to claim my departure from the sheep. (society)



                                                                                                                                                                                    ~Shanel

Quote from: "lundberg500"In all the years that I have been an atheist, I have never met a black atheist. I am your typical Caucasian male atheist, by the way. Is this purely an educational level or intellectual thing? Is it a social thing where black families raise their children to be Christian and none of these children break away from religion as so many of us atheists have done? Are black people generally more spiritual?

The main thing I have noticed throughout my discussions with both atheists and Christians (both white and black) is that the atheists are ALWAYS more intellectual. They read prolifically and intelligently inquire into everything. They are natural skeptics who base everything on logic and reason. This is not to say that there are absolutely no intelligent Christians. But still, the atheists that I have conversed with ALWAYS seem to have a higher educational level than the Christians that I have been around. Every single time.

There are many college educated black people out there and I'm sure they are well educated but are any of them atheists? I would LOVE to meet some black atheists and get their views on what it is like living in a Christian dominated America. Not to stereotype, but every black person that I have talked to is ALWAYS Christian, every single time. There are several black people at my work and I am friends with many of them and every single one of them are Christian. Are there any black atheists on this forum? Do any of my fellow atheists here know of any black atheists living in America?

It's true I've noticed that too. Atheism seems to be more of a white thing, like beans on toast or conquering foreign lands for some manufactured purpose or other. Black folks tend to perceive deep meaning in things, and are, I guess, more inclined to not take things simply on face value. Educational level (whatever that means, usually it boils down to just learning other people's ideas and long words when short ones usually suffice) doesn't seem to make much difference. Look at Louis Farrakhan. He's extremely intelligent and well spoken and could easily wipe the floor with many a smartass, yet he obviously is a theist. It's a myth that educational level has much to do with whether one is an atheist or theist, or that people with dark skin are dumb, as is so often insinuated. It's also a myth that "education" makes you intelligent. I've come across many "educated" people who are just as dumb as some non "educated" people. The only difference is that they express their stupidity and childishness with longer words.

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"It's true I've noticed that too. Atheism seems to be more of a white thing, like beans on toast or conquering foreign lands for some manufactured purpose or other. Black folks tend to perceive deep meaning in things, and are, I guess, more inclined to not take things simply on face value. Educational level (whatever that means, usually it boils down to just learning other people's ideas and long words when short ones usually suffice) doesn't seem to make much difference. Look at Louis Farrakhan. He's extremely intelligent and well spoken and could easily wipe the floor with many a smartass, yet he obviously is a theist. It's a myth that educational level has much to do with whether one is an atheist or theist, or that people with dark skin are dumb, as is so often insinuated. It's also a myth that "education" makes you intelligent. I've come across many "educated" people who are just as dumb as some non "educated" people. The only difference is that they express their stupidity and childishness with longer words.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think that black people tend to be theists more because they "tend to perceive deep meaning in things" and "more inclined to not take things simply on face value." Like others have said numerous times, it's probably because of the black society surrounding them that usually keeps them from abandoning their faith. Of course, I'm not black, so I can't really say for sure.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"It's true I've noticed that too. Atheism seems to be more of a white thing, like beans on toast or conquering foreign lands for some manufactured purpose or other. Black folks tend to perceive deep meaning in things, and are, I guess, more inclined to not take things simply on face value. Educational level (whatever that means, usually it boils down to just learning other people's ideas and long words when short ones usually suffice) doesn't seem to make much difference. Look at Louis Farrakhan. He's extremely intelligent and well spoken and could easily wipe the floor with many a smartass, yet he obviously is a theist. It's a myth that educational level has much to do with whether one is an atheist or theist, or that people with dark skin are dumb, as is so often insinuated. It's also a myth that "education" makes you intelligent. I've come across many "educated" people who are just as dumb as some non "educated" people. The only difference is that they express their stupidity and childishness with longer words.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think that black people tend to be theists more because they "tend to perceive deep meaning in things" and "more inclined to not take things simply on face value." Like others have said numerous times, it's probably because of the black society surrounding them that usually keeps them from abandoning their faith. Of course, I'm not black, so I can't really say for sure.

Possibly. But theism has been a strong influence in many societies, yet atheists are mostly white. I just think that that there are probably other aspects of black culture (and asian, and hispanic, and others) that makes them predisposed to believe. Atheists seem to be mainly northern european / american. It's a very (northern)eurocentric / anglosaxon thing. So overall, culture, not education, plays the biggest part. And theistic / spiritual concepts are vey deeply ingrained within language. If you wanted to make us all atheists, you'd probably have to influence language and culture, because education, in my view, has very little to do with it. I'd say I'm quite well educated and well spoken and quite well read, and I'd like to think that I'm reasonaly intelligent, yet I'm a theist. It's quite arrogant to assume (not that I think you're saying it) that well educated people are somehow more intelligent than non educated peple, or that atheists are brighter.

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Possibly. But theism has been a strong influence in many societies, yet atheists are mostly white. I just think that that there are probably other aspects of black culture (and asian, and hispanic, and others) that makes them predisposed to believe.

Here's a claim I might make.  Feel free to attack it.

Sitting around and pondering philosophical ideas, or really any ideas, at length is what I would call a luxury.  If you have plenty of other immediate concerns (such as meeting basic needs) you are unlikely to have much time to spend on such pondering.

If you are unlikely to ponder, what will your belief system be?  I would venture to guess it would be whatever you were brought up to believe, because you trust your upbringing and lack the luxury of considering other alternatives.

What might prevent you from enjoying this luxury?

First, it is helpful to have freedom.  Freedom is often fairly well approximated in a democracy.  Is it not often said that the first great philosophers were the Greeks, because they were among the first to manage a well-established society offering enough democracy and freedom by which they could afford this luxury?

Would most African-Americans tell you that currently feel like they have significant freedom?  Would most "blacks" elsewhere in the world?  Which is closely tied to the next point:

It is also quite helpful to have your basic needs met.  You know, so you aren't working 2 jobs all day, or spending all of your time budgeting out how to support your children and your family.  Etc.  I would say one way to achieve this is to maintain a standing fairly well above the poverty line.

Is there reason to believe African-Americans have a harder time staying above the poverty line?
http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/#4

Finally, here is another, related idea.  Maybe African-Americans are still acclimating to their relatively new sense of "equal rights" (though again, I doubt most would tell you they feel this has been fully achieved--they've yet to overcome many prejudices despite the election of a mixed race President).  Enduring their historical struggle in this country, and coming this far under a system of oppression, surely required a network of support and a feeling of cohesion among themselves as a people.  Christianity helped give them hope in the darkest of hours, and helped unite them; they made it this far with it.

Perhaps African-Americans simply have not yet had enough time to rise up out of the poverty that was forced upon them over 2+ centuries and still is, break with their traditions of the past, and enjoy their greater "luxury" for hypothesizing about abstract concepts.

Just some other ideas to consider.

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"It's true I've noticed that too. Atheism seems to be more of a white thing, like beans on toast or conquering foreign lands for some manufactured purpose or other. Black folks tend to perceive deep meaning in things, and are, I guess, more inclined to not take things simply on face value. Educational level (whatever that means, usually it boils down to just learning other people's ideas and long words when short ones usually suffice) doesn't seem to make much difference. Look at Louis Farrakhan. He's extremely intelligent and well spoken and could easily wipe the floor with many a smartass, yet he obviously is a theist. It's a myth that educational level has much to do with whether one is an atheist or theist, or that people with dark skin are dumb, as is so often insinuated. It's also a myth that "education" makes you intelligent. I've come across many "educated" people who are just as dumb as some non "educated" people. The only difference is that they express their stupidity and childishness with longer words.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think that black people tend to be theists more because they "tend to perceive deep meaning in things" and "more inclined to not take things simply on face value." Like others have said numerous times, it's probably because of the black society surrounding them that usually keeps them from abandoning their faith. Of course, I'm not black, so I can't really say for sure.

Possibly. But theism has been a strong influence in many societies, yet atheists are mostly white. I just think that that there are probably other aspects of black culture (and asian, and hispanic, and others) that makes them predisposed to believe. Atheists seem to be mainly northern european / american. It's a very (northern)eurocentric / anglosaxon thing. So overall, culture, not education, plays the biggest part. And theistic / spiritual concepts are vey deeply ingrained within language. If you wanted to make us all atheists, you'd probably have to influence language and culture, because education, in my view, has very little to do with it. I'd say I'm quite well educated and well spoken and quite well read, and I'd like to think that I'm reasonaly intelligent, yet I'm a theist. It's quite arrogant to assume (not that I think you're saying it) that well educated people are somehow more intelligent than non educated peple, or that atheists are brighter.

You basically just agreed with what I said -- that culture plays the biggest role in what you believe. I don't think that education has nothing to do with it, but I think it's largely what kind of ideas/ideologies/whatever you want to call them that you were raised with, and whether you question or be skeptical of your beliefs. Many ideas are so ingrained into our minds that they're very hard to question, much less get rid of.

EDIT: I think Persimmon has a very good point. Regardless of whether or want or know how to question the beliefs you've been fed since childhood, if you can't, i.e. don't have enough free time, then you won't.

I believe I have pointed that I have just recently returned to Chicago. I am a black atheist as i'm sure i've pointed out several times however there appears to be a newcomer so i'll point it out again. I'd like to point out that education plays a VERY strong role. Recently an old friend came to town, he's a real good friend of mine but he was raised in one of those less savory homes, his parents are like 31 and he's 19, going on 20 very soon. This was my first time meeting his family and these are the people that white America is afraid of. Good people but just in an unfortunate spot. I suppose I give off the air of being an intellectual. They picked up on this and and asked me whether I believe in god or not which is a common question when you're black and talking to other blacks if the level of education reaches such a high disparity. Schools in the hood suck, period. I had to explain that the planets are not made from stars, I had to explain how chimpanzees, gorillas, etc are just as evolved as we are and the whole common ancestor thing, basically I had to correct alot of stuff and ended up explaining everything down from the big bang to abiogenesis and of course evolution. I had to explain the difference between a scientific theory and a theory, I basically went through a whole crash course on science. They were genuinely interested and didn't berate me for not believing. Note that there was several pistols, four bricks of weed, two automatic weapons, and other very illegal things on the table. Yes, these are the scary people but they are were just as curious as any other person and even open minded.  

Education isn't the only issue but it's a major one. Other minorities have their faith derived from tradition, blacks have it derived from a lack of education, general poor quality of life due to having been slaves less than 150 or so ago, did you know the first black millionaires only retired in like the past ten or so years? People don't see it but no matter how well some blacks are doing the race as a whole is still recovering from a history of fail and it shows in the culture, the quality of life and other things. Back in school, all my life, since I was in preschool, people thought it was unheard of that I could read and that only intensified as I got older, most of my peers could barely read well while I was raging at how horrible it was to have to listen to so many people read. The teacher used to pick me to read several times in a row because of how horrible it was for my peers in general, this is rather common and it's sad, there was always a few kids who could not read at all. How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

I would like to answer the other side of the equation. My life is much different from Ultima22689, I am a black woman and I am a strong theist. I come from the middle class. I grew up around blacks, whites, and Hispanics. No hood the black people I knew were middle class Americans. My mother has a bachelors degree and taught science in middle school and high school. My sister and I went to college and we both graduated with degrees and we are married to men with degrees. I only know the hood of Houston becasue that is where my family live. I don't believe in God becasue someone told me to but becasue I met God. I have and had a lot of time to think about these things and ponder other religions and my conclusion has been and will always be there is a God and his name is Jesus.

Now this isn't about Black thesis so I would say that there are some Black atheist out there that just don't claim to be one. If you look at their life and you looked at an atheist life they would be no different. Like Persimmon Hamster stated they may not sit around and ponder weither or not there is a spiritual side to life. Still if you asked them they may say no I don't believe in a god or what does god have to do with my life or there may be a god or their may not be a god but I haven't seen any proof to one. I guess if you really want to know get on an African American forum and ask how many believe in God.

QuoteI have and had a lot of time to think about these things and ponder other religions and my conclusion has been and will always be there is a God and his name is Jesus.

Gsaint, Really? Is this an educated conclusion or one that just "feels" right? Is everyone else in your family Christian too? I have taken years to make this decision and I can honestly say that it was an educated decision. I have no idea the exact number of books I have read on the issue of the existence of Jesus. I have even taken it so far as to learn the history surrounding this time during the first and second century CE. Most of my history books are about that period. I can say, without a doubt, that Jesus did not exist as a physical person. There is no evidence to support it. Does the story of Jesus really make sense to you as an intelligent person?

Do you truly believe that Jesus:

1. Cast out demons
2. Healed the sick, blind, and deaf
3. Walked on water
4. Raised the dead
5. Fed thousands with little food
6. Died, resurrected, and floated up to heaven

Do you truly believe in supernatural things such as angels, devils, and holy spirits?

If you really believe in these things then your education has had no influence at all on your decision. I will never understand how an intelligent, logical, and reasonable person could ever decide that all these supernatural things are real to them.

Quote from: "gsaint"I would like to answer the other side of the equation. My life is much different from Ultima22689, I am a black woman and I am a strong theist. I come from the middle class. I grew up around blacks, whites, and Hispanics. No hood the black people I knew were middle class Americans. My mother has a bachelors degree and taught science in middle school and high school. My sister and I went to college and we both graduated with degrees and we are married to men with degrees. I only know the hood of Houston becasue that is where my family live. I don't believe in God becasue someone told me to but becasue I met God. I have and had a lot of time to think about these things and ponder other religions and my conclusion has been and will always be there is a God and his name is Jesus.

Now this isn't about Black thesis so I would say that there are some Black atheist out there that just don't claim to be one. If you look at their life and you looked at an atheist life they would be no different. Like Persimmon Hamster stated they may not sit around and ponder weither or not there is a spiritual side to life. Still if you asked them they may say no I don't believe in a god or what does god have to do with my life or there may be a god or their may not be a god but I haven't seen any proof to one. I guess if you really want to know get on an African American forum and ask how many believe in God.

Closed mind, nuff said.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"I moved to australia this year but I was born and raised in america. I can tell you the issue is not an intellectual issue but an issue of culture.The black church has taken credit for nearly every civil rights advancement in the black american community, They are the most vocal about community outreach,and they take credit for any moral advances. The church is seen as the pillar of the community. In a minority community any deviation from the group is frowned upon because the group already feels marginalized. One must also take into account the indoctrination of christianity into the slave community. Slaves felt that only the christian god could save them from their plight which is ironic considering what the bible has to say about the issue of owning people..... in short most black atheists especially females keep silent about their atheist because of the social pressures. No one I know wants to be the minority within the minority.

Wow!  That's the best explanation I have ever heard.  I'm adopting your point of view.

Quote from: "Sophus"I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier but Oprah Winfrey left Christianity for New Age Deism didn't she? Not an atheist, but still, that takes some guts, right? I mean, the Christians have been blasting her ever since.

Oprah has made much of Eckhart Tolle's book, A New Earth, which a friend of mine assures me is Buddhism in disguise.  My friend is a student of a Buddhist teacher and the class, she says, has used Tolle's book in their studies.  If she manages to open the minds of Christians to other possibilities then more power to her.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

No, it doesn't. There seems to be a vibe of anti-intellectualism among black youth, especially among males.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

No, it doesn't. There seems to be a vibe of anti-intellectualism among black youth, especially among males.

I think that to speculate that black culture discourages education is a brave thing to say given there a so many black people living across the whole of society. Is there really a 'black culture'? I ask this question as a 51yo Englishman who hasn't been in America long enough to understand the reality of the situation. What is 'black culture'? Does it exist? How does it manifest itself? I really am interested to discuss this as a forum is about the only place one can discuss this sort of thing.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

No, it doesn't. There seems to be a vibe of anti-intellectualism among black youth, especially among males.[/quote]
I think that to speculate that black culture discourages education is a brave thing to say given there a so many black people living across the whole of society. Is there really a 'black culture'? I ask this question as a 51yo Englishman who hasn't been in America long enough to understand the reality of the situation. What is 'black culture'? Does it exist? How does it manifest itself? I really am interested to discuss this as a forum is about the only place one can discuss this sort of thing.[/quote]

It's hard to describe but yes there is, it's more like tiers of black culture. These tiers reflect the quality of life of X people, it's hard to describe because each is somewhat isolated. For example, Gsaint describes growing up in a middle class family surrounded by a integrated community. It won't vary much more than any other culture in America held by the middle class. They send their kids to school, they do great, succeed in life, live the American Dream, etc. Then there is where I grew up. I lived my entire childhood in inner city Chicago, i'm surrounded by the culture that's commonly portrayed in media. You know, that whole gangster thing, except without all the romanticizing that media spins on it. My family was middle class as well so my parents exposed me to a lot of different things the best they could and the household is pretty secular, my brother is agnostic while my parents are the garden variety Christians that don't go to church much at all or pray at the table or anything like that but they do believe. Gang culture is something that is very strong among youth, hence my peers as i'm only 21.  My mother's side of the family come from a past that is similar to the description Gsaint gave however there was no integration as they grew up throughout the 60s and 70s. South side Chicago wasn't integrated at all back then and even now integration is just starting to sink in. Because the majority of blacks where I come from are low middle class or low class, have a slew of financial problems (If you ever watch a black stand up comedian they may talk about this, watch some Richard Pryor, Dave Chapelle, Eddie Murphy or Chris Rock stand up, brilliant stuff) which seems to be common a mentality is created about getting money anyway possible. A lot of people that i've known have joined gangs, not because they have a desire to harm society but because it offers them a brother hood within the gang to some degree and illegal enterprises are quite lucrative.

Taking the time to get an education and living poor is very rough on one's mental fortitude. There have been times in the past where I've considered growing cannabis to sell, I know a few dealers that are child hood friends, connected to "powerful" people who can make a pound disappear and I could cash in on as much as 8K if the weed is good enough. I'm sure those who know me on the forums probably never gave a thought to me taking part in such behaviors, this is because, like many middle class families across America, after the bush years, my parents found themselves out of their well paying jobs.  We had nice things, went out to dinner, went to art fairs, would go to the conventions that pop up all over the city and buy crap we would never need. The first half of my childhood was great, when my father lost his job, all that good stuff went away, most of my mother's wages went to pay off their debts, she used to make about 50K a year yet half the time we ended up going to bed after eating a butter sandwich or something like that.  Despite this, my mother was raised with the mindset that most productive middle class families have so naturally, my brother and I strive for success, we stayed in school, didn't start dealing or gang banging or anything of the sort.

Now think about what it means if your family has lived poor for generations, your parents mind set was "get money". Meaning your dad may have been in a gang, your grandfather may have been in a gang or they were drug dealers, etc. You know, the things frowned upon in society. Children learn how to live from their parents. Imagine your dad telling you, if you wanna make it in life, you have to sell  those bags, be ready to stick somebody up if you need the dough. Have you ever heard the 50 Cent rapper's motto? "Get Rich or Die Tryin". That's the mindset that a vast majority of youth had. Back in school, the common thing all my male peers would spout was "I'm A Grown Ass Man". Most of them come from single mothers or live with grandparents that don't give a damn. The mindset of my peers is why waste time in school when you can sell rocks to the crack heads and make a mint in a short amount of time. I was an outcast because I wanted to do well in school. Girls actually found a desire to succeed in society as unattractive but they love the "gangsta" types. If you were 16, drove an escalade paid for with your drug money then you were the ideal male. This is a sharp contrast in integrated schools or majority white schools where the popular kids were those who had great grades, were socialites, etc.

Does this help you grasp an understanding? Being a detriment to society because you can make a load of cash quickly is glorified opposed to becoming an ideal member of society. Then there is the amount of people addicted to hard drugs who waste their life away and harm their children in various ways. In one of my previous posts I described hanging with a good friend at his parent's house, at said house there was pounds of weed, guns and various other very illegal things all over the table. I smoked a blunt with him, his parents and other relatives. Before this, I was waiting on said friend to get back after dropping off weed to customers and bringing back the dough, for his parents. I know several families like this, this is a very common thing among low income blacks and inner city blacks in general. It's not because their degenerates or anything, that's literally the culture here, they don't see anything wrong with that and like my friend's parents may love them very much but this is the norm for many black youth. I didn't even subscribe the projects, which are now disappearing but the families who have lived there for five generations are still around and project people, I hate to say it, are on a whole other level compared to what I described above, the above is the more tame version of it.

Thank you for taking the time to write that and explain your situation and your insights into it. I don't think I could ever truly comprehend what it is like to live your life. You might as well be a Martian your life experience is so different from mine! Do you see any reason why the mentality of those around you will ever change? What do you think will happen over the next couple of generations?

Quote from: "Tank"Thank you for taking the time to write that and explain your situation and your insights into it. I don't think I could ever truly comprehend what it is like to live your life. You might as well be a Martian your life experience is so different from mine! Do you see any reason why the mentality of those around you will ever change? What do you think will happen over the next couple of generations?

Honestly, I don't know, I don't see any signs of the cycle changing unless the US education system makes a massive change from this reward/punishment crap we got going now, that's where it all starts, if you can convince kids that education holds far more promise than slinging dope then you've already changed the future of a generation for the better, honestly though, I don't see it happening, I think this cycle will go on for many decades to come.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "Tank"Thank you for taking the time to write that and explain your situation and your insights into it. I don't think I could ever truly comprehend what it is like to live your life. You might as well be a Martian your life experience is so different from mine! Do you see any reason why the mentality of those around you will ever change? What do you think will happen over the next couple of generations?

Honestly, I don't know, I don't see any signs of the cycle changing unless the US education system makes a massive change from this reward/punishment crap we got going now, that's where it all starts, if you can convince kids that education holds far more promise than slinging dope then you've already changed the future of a generation for the better, honestly though, I don't see it happening, I think this cycle will go on for many decades to come.

Unless of course your transhumanist views come to pass in which case all our descendents will A) be living in a zoo or B) will be immortal Borg type creatures  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "Tank"Thank you for taking the time to write that and explain your situation and your insights into it. I don't think I could ever truly comprehend what it is like to live your life. You might as well be a Martian your life experience is so different from mine! Do you see any reason why the mentality of those around you will ever change? What do you think will happen over the next couple of generations?

Honestly, I don't know, I don't see any signs of the cycle changing unless the US education system makes a massive change from this reward/punishment crap we got going now, that's where it all starts, if you can convince kids that education holds far more promise than slinging dope then you've already changed the future of a generation for the better, honestly though, I don't see it happening, I think this cycle will go on for many decades to come.

Unless of course your transhumanist views come to pass in which case all our descendents will A) be living in a zoo or B) will be immortal Borg type creatures  :bananacolor: