Happy Atheist Forum

For the past few years, every math teacher I've had has assigned the class about 40 or so math problems to do for homework on a daily basis.  When people try to explain why there's a such thing as homework, the responses generally fall into two categories:
1. It helps you learn.
2. Practicing helps you get better at something.
However, neither of these are the case with math.  Number one is false because everything we need to know on a particular subject is taught in class by the teacher.  No math teacher I have ever had has said something to the effect of "I'm not going to teach you concept x, you'll have to read the textbook for homework and figure it out by yourself."  As for number 2, I don't believe that doing math is like running so that you can be a faster runner.  Math is a precise science, so you're either right or wrong.  You either know how to solve a particular problem or you don't.  If you understand how to do addition, it doesn't matter if you do zero addition problems per day or 100.  In both cases, you will still know how to do addition.

Generally, I spend 30 or so minutes on math homework (not because it's difficult, but because the calculations take many steps and the graphs take a reasonable time to draw, etc.), and we get some almost every school day.  I don't believe I would have as much of a problem with getting daily math if it was only 10 or so problems to help us remember something, but when we get half an hour worth per day (and over one hour in some cases,) and I have homework for five other classes, it's a bit of a drag.  

When my mom asked my Algebra 1 teacher why we got so much homework, her response was that the kids who are struggling a bit need the large amount to retain and gain a better understanding of the concepts.  Now that I'm in Honers Algebra 2 and I have a different teacher, it seems that the tides have shifted.  Obviously the kids who take honors tend to quick learners and good students, but our teacher has said that we will get not less, but more homework than the non-honors Algebra 2 class.  If we will learn more of the book, and learn it at an accelerated pace (our teacher only said this might happen,) then I am certain it will only be by a small amount.

More and more I realize how much the lofty and out of touch idea that "work is good (regardless of the need for it or the time and effort sacrifice required)" has flooded the field of education.  As a case and point, chapter 1.1 of our Algebra 2 book, and the topic of the second day of math class, was how to graph a linear equation.  I am certain that I have been taught and done homework on this at the beginning of every school year for the past three years.  I would be very surprised if there was a single person who walked into the Honers Algebra 2 class on the first day of school who did not know how to graph a linear equation (no questions were asked, and no one said "can you explain...").  Even if there was one person who had forgotten it over the summer, I would be even more surprised if the 20 homework problems after the first 10 would have been of any benefit to him or her.

[/rant]

Sorry, math practice DOES help you get better because it helps you to pick the proper operation/rule/etc. to use for a particular ccalculation without having to think about it.  There's a reason I can add in my head and my kid uses his fingers.

The very minute I finished Trig, I forgot 12 years of mathematics. A few months back I had to how to divide fractions. While there are some teachers that are outstanding and help kids despite the system, I do admit schools are arranged to as to produce workers, unimaginative drones satisfied with an okay wage and almost no room for self-direction.

Here's what you should do: give the system the middle finger by learning in your own way on your own time. I know it's going to be tough considering they're pilling on grunt work, but I can't stress enough the importance of developing self-directed learning skills. Learning how to be driven to learn and how you learn best is likely the most important lesson you can learn as a human being other than how to develop good relationships with friends and family. I regret not figuring it out until well after I graduated. Whenever I see a young person, I want to grab them and shake them and yell this into their face because it's so incredibly important. But I'd be arrested.

I only learn by doing so 20 problems that take 30 minutes and sometimes an hour for someone that is in high school doesn't seem like that much to me.  I had college math homework that would take hours to complete even if we worked in groups.  I also never listened during my match classes because I was better off just looking at the book later.

It's only an issue if it becomes an excessive amount of repetition.

I did less of my homework than most students, but learned more math in less time.  I'll have a math minor at the local community college before I graduate from high school.

The problem with the homework system is that it is inefficient. It is not good to drill the same kind of problem long after you understand how to do it.
Instead, you need spaced repetition.
If you space the time you do the problems out, you will remember how to do them for longer time with less total effort.

Now that I am in college math, excess of homework isn't really an issue. In one of the mathematics classes I am taking, the homework is optional, and in the other, the homework is actually necessary in order for me to understand the material.  My professor generally does not assign excessive amounts of similar problems. It's always a new challenge.


I agree, the high school mathematics system is rediculous-- but no, (you used addition as an example) if you don't do any addition, ever, you will either eventually forget how to do it or never learn in the first place.

You are reviewing linear equations in Algebra 2?  :D

Quote from: "Reginus"No math teacher I have ever had has said something to the effect of "I'm not going to teach you concept x, you'll have to read the textbook for homework and figure it out by yourself."

This changes dramatically when you get to differential equations, or even integral calculus.  You get to a situation where guessing is as good an approach as any you'll find in a textbook.  But you still have to verify, and in order to do that, you need to have the fairly boring mechanical stuff like algebra as second nature, because there isn't enough time to sit down and write out the verifications of every guess.

Of course, you might not think you need to get to that level.  You might be right.  Lots of people get along reasonably well in life.

Also, a lot of people ask "will this help me at the grocery store?" and the answer to that is probably not.

I studied a lot of math and got a degree in it.  I've found three benefits to it:

1) Work, obviously.

2) At the higher levels, mathematics is quite beautiful, though you don't see it at the lower levels.  I enjoy this.

3) Getting laid.  I don't know about you, but this is important to me.

how does math get you laid?  Seriously.

1) Learn math
2) Computer Engineering
3) $$$$$$
4) Laid
5) ?
6) World domination

Quote from: "PoopShoot"how does math get you laid?  Seriously.

Well, one anecdote.  I got laid at a conference for work, by a woman with a very athletic body, against active competition by four other men (at minimum).  She told me afterward that when I was giving a talk on some fairly tricky mathematical results, she was just mesmerized by me.  I think that may have put me over the top.  This isn't like the 60s.  An effective, articulate geek can get rather a lot of fine poon as well as good long-term relationships.  Of course, learning how to speak in public and overcoming stage fright are also useful.

I've gotten inquiries on dating sites simply because I said words to the extent of "Look, women.  If you talk about how smart you are and how it intimidates men, then you'd better be able to discuss the importance of the Axiom of Choice in the Continuum Hypothesis before I'll be interested."  One woman just d the answer, and I called her on it, but I thought it was kind of sweet that she tried.

When you think about it, women who value things like mathematics and science and intellect are the best kind of women to meet.

Also, it's kind of useful to understand Bayes' theorem if you want to evaluate all those statistics floated around that otherwise tend to discourage men.

I think it probably works for women, too.  If I had a time machine, there's no doubt that I would use it to go back in time and pork Emmy Noether.  Then I'd fast-forward to the Frank Zappa Helsinki concert.  I've at least flirted with Donna Cox and Carolina Cruz-Neira, though it didn't go anywhere in either case.

The girl says she wants a smart guy til you talk about bio...   :brick:

Whatever, I'm married anyway at this point.  We had our 11th anniversary yesterday.   :bananacolor:  

Quote from: "PoopShoot"The girl says she wants a smart guy til you talk about bio...   :brick:

Nah, you just have to learn how to talk about it.

My congratulations and/or condolences on the marriage.  I'm schtupping about 10 women and trying to have babies with two.  I like my way better, but your mileage may vary.

Well, practice certainly does help you become faster and more accurate at solving maths problems. Repetition is also proven to help you retain information long term.

Having said that, maths at university is very different, if you go to a good one, the homework is likely to be very challenging and an important component of your learning. Though, I did no work at school, marginally more at more university and I came out with a good degree still, perhaps not as good as if I had practised more.

Quote from: "epepke"

Quote from: "PoopShoot"how does math get you laid?  Seriously.

Well, one anecdote.  I got laid at a conference for work, by a woman with a very athletic body, against active competition by four other men (at minimum).  She told me afterward that when I was giving a talk on some fairly tricky mathematical results, she was just mesmerized by me.  I think that may have put me over the top.  This isn't like the 60s.  An effective, articulate geek can get rather a lot of fine poon as well as good long-term relationships.  Of course, learning how to speak in public and overcoming stage fright are also useful.

So what was the tricky result?

That you arrived at a set where the largest member of a set of four or more was just an imaginary number that may or may not be less, greater than, or equal to all the other members of its set, which was assumed to be proportional to all other sets in E?

E is all numbers of the ego set.

Repetition makes for quicker solutions.
In an exam this should make a difference.
It gives you time to think about things that need thinking about.

Quote from: "deekayfry"That you arrived at a set where the largest member of a set of four or more was just an imaginary number that may or may not be less, greater than, or equal to all the other members of its set, which was assumed to be proportional to all other sets in E?

E is all numbers of the ego set.

Good one.  That merits a yuk 3

Quote from: "deekayfry"Wait till you get to quadratics, roots, polynomials, logarithms, and imaginary numbers  :P

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "deekayfry"Wait till you get to quadratics, roots, polynomials, logarithms, and imaginary numbers  :P

One thing I learn't on the internet, never try to outgeek anyone, you will always be outgeeked in short order.

Also, differential equations and fourier transforms are really the tools of physics, we just let the engineers play with them to make them feel as though they are involved  

Quote from: "SSY"Also, differential equations and fourier transforms are really the tools of physics, we just let the engineers play with them to make them feel as though they are involved  :P

My field, for instance, is completely dependent on understanding physics of motion, material and electromagnetism, among others

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "SSY"Also, differential equations and fourier transforms are really the tools of physics, we just let the engineers play with them to make them feel as though they are involved  :P

Yep, we can     And we both have our little HP's right next to us at all times still, even while posting on the forum or surfing the web......  Damn, we are nerds.....

Quote from: "KDbeads"Yep, we can  :verysad:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "deekayfry"Wait till you get to quadratics, roots, polynomials, logarithms, and imaginary numbers  :P

I was considering responding to the same post with something like...

"Nah, dude, that's still the basics, it doesn't get hard until.... until.... well, it has to get hard at some point, doesn't it? ... like, maybe when you're developing your own theorems that are potentially relevant to society, or maybe... I dunno... does anyone actually understand quantum mechanics? Like, the math behind it is easy enough, but ... does anyone really understand it?"

Quote from: "SSY"One thing I learn't on the internet, never try to outgeek anyone, you will always be outgeeked in short order.

This is very true.

I see a lot of nerd bragging in this thread. It's annoying.

* Oh, and did someone say differential equations were hard?  WTF

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"* Oh, and did someone say differential equations were hard?  WTF

Well now, there are differential equations and there are differential equations . . .

Unless I'm just a thicky who struggle with these things.

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"* Oh, and did someone say differential equations were hard?  WTF

Well now, there are differential equations and there are differential equations . . .

Unless I'm just a thicky who struggle with these things.

Yeah... Guess I shoulda' used the italic  :raised:

Some problems can be very time consuming, yes.

time consuming != difficult

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"Some problems can be very time consuming, yes.

time consuming != difficult

Time consuming == difficult when faced with a deadline that usually looks like "Do it yesterday!"

In that case, it is the time restraint that is difficult.

Blame society.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"In that case, it is the time restraint that is difficult.

Blame society.

Well, if you really feel like arguing that point... Ok!  

The part of the project that is the most difficult in relation to meeting the overall deadline is the most difficult part.

Message to the OP. You need to do your homework and do it with enthusiasm. As you mature you will understand the necessity and desireability.  Now that you have heard from several nerds, here, you may be getting the idea. Education...$$$$$...getting laid. If that last one is not enough to convince you then I give up.

If you don't like math now, try taking Differential Equations and Multivariable Calculus in college... then you'll really despise math. I'm currently in Differential Equations and I'm going to take Multivariable Calculus next semester. Homework takes hours and on my last homework, a single problem took up more than an entire page.

Quote from: "Godless"If you don't like math now, try taking Differential Equations and Multivariable Calculus in college... then you'll really despise math. I'm currently in Differential Equations and I'm going to take Multivariable Calculus next semester. Homework takes hours and on my last homework, a single problem took up more than an entire page.

Can be quite miserable, can it not..?  :verysad:

Quote from: "Godless"If you don't like math now, try taking Differential Equations and Multivariable Calculus in college... then you'll really despise math. I'm currently in Differential Equations and I'm going to take Multivariable Calculus next semester. Homework takes hours and on my last homework, a single problem took up more than an entire page.

Maybe I just had a good professor...

Quote from: "Godless"If you don't like math now, try taking Differential Equations and Multivariable Calculus in college... then you'll really despise math. I'm currently in Differential Equations and I'm going to take Multivariable Calculus next semester. Homework takes hours and on my last homework, a single problem took up more than an entire page.

At the risk of breaking my outgeeking guideline, a one page solution is a minnow.

Hey, we've got "my dick if bigger than yours" with actual math involved.  This is a first.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Hey, we've got "my dick if bigger than yours" with actual math involved.  This is a first.

Me, I'm pretty well pleased with above average...  

Was the claim that differential equations are hard?  That wasn't my claim.  My claim was that in order to solve them in a reasonable amount of time, one has to have things like algebra so well known that it feels like an automatic process to solve them.

It's just like music.  In order to play music, one has to know scales and finger patterns down pat.  The process of learning scales and finger patterns isn't itself much fun, but it's necessary in order to be able to do more advanced stuff.

Quote from: "epepke"in order to solve them in a reasonable amount of time, one has to have things like algebra so well known that it feels like an automatic process

Agreed.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "epepke"in order to solve them in a reasonable amount of time, one has to have things like algebra so well known that it feels like an automatic process

Agreed.

Thirded.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Hey, we've got "my dick if bigger than yours" with actual math involved.  This is a first.

I didn't even care to start with!

Math was fun inschool and then at work it become a time sucking nuisance.

I learned real quick, and not quick enough at that, to put the calculator up when production went down.  My motivation?  Getting my ass chewed up one side of a wall and down another.

Well other than math, my Data Structures and Algorithms class (2nd level C++ course) is raping me in the ass because my teacher isn't that great and he throws super hard homeworks/projects at us

Quote from: "Godless"Well other than math, my Data Structures and Algorithms class (2nd level C++ course) is raping me in the ass because my teacher isn't that great and he throws super hard homeworks/projects at us

Bastard! (The teacher not you)

Quote from: "Godless"Well other than math, my Data Structures and Algorithms class (2nd level C++ course) is raping me in the ass because my teacher isn't that great and he throws super hard homeworks/projects at us

What text are you using?  30 years ago we used Algorithms + Data Stuctures = Programs, but that was before objects were widely taught.

Quote from: "epepke"

Quote from: "Godless"Well other than math, my Data Structures and Algorithms class (2nd level C++ course) is raping me in the ass because my teacher isn't that great and he throws super hard homeworks/projects at us

What text are you using?  30 years ago we used Algorithms + Data Stuctures = Programs, but that was before objects were widely taught.

My textbook is called "Data Abstraction & Problem Solving with C++" by Frank M. Carrano