Happy Atheist Forum

Is it really a sickness as psychologists desrcibe it to be? I am not sure if I have been really suffering from it or not...but I have had many 'down' periods...especially this summer. My lack of social connection with people has been a heavy contribution to my pessimistic attitude and supposed depression, being an existential nihilist.

Forgive me if I get too personal, but I have had about 2 or 3 suicide attempts due to depression. I am afraid to let my family know of this condition because they are really religious. I am only 20 years old, and I am not sure what to do. There seems to be alot of older and wiser people on this forum...and I was wondering if I could get any advice. My mind is more scrambled than an egg, and I am not sure if it's due to my transition from a child to an adult, or a genuine state of depression . Can anyone help?

20 years old is nothing. You're still a kid. I can say that as my kids are 23,23 & 26 and they are still maturing. Depression is a horrible debilitating feeling and when you're sat at the bottom of that big dark pit very little helps. This might sound really trite but do you have a pet? This might sound selfish but a pet dog is a wonderful friend. They say money can't by love, well that may be true but it sure as hell can buy a companion that will stop you trying to step over the brink.

The other thing that helps is trying to stop seeing oneself as the centre of all the shit things going on in ones life. It makes you feel impotent and victimised and that causes a downward spiral.

Depression can be caused by some illnesses, diabetes being one of them. Have you had a thorough medical since you started feeling depressed? If not then do so, there could be something physical underpinning your depressive state. I have felt shite for the last few months and had put it down to circumstance. But yesterday I had my diabetic check up and they added a new medication. I felt better within minutes of taking it and it has nothing to do with depression as such, it mediates sugar uptake.

Just a few thoughts.

Depression may also be due to personality disorders, in which case a psychiatrist can help you. There is no shame in visiting one.

Quote from: "Tank"20 years old is nothing. You're still a kid. I can say that as my kids are 23,23 & 26 and they are still maturing. Depression is a horrible debilitating feeling and when you're sat at the bottom of that big dark pit very little helps. This might sound really trite but do you have a pet? This might sound selfish but a pet dog is a wonderful friend. They say money can't by love, well that may be true but it sure as hell can buy a companion that will stop you trying to step over the brink.

The other thing that helps is trying to stop seeing oneself as the centre of all the shit things going on in ones life. It makes you feel impotent and victimised and that causes a downward spiral.

Depression can be caused by some illnesses, diabetes being one of them. Have you had a thorough medical since you started feeling depressed? If not then do so, there could be something physical underpinning your depressive state. I have felt shite for the last few months and had put it down to circumstance. But yesterday I had my diabetic check up and they added a new medication. I felt better within minutes of taking it and it has nothing to do with depression as such, it mediates sugar uptake.

Just a few thoughts.

Not really. I've talked to one of my doctors at my college....and he subscribed medication, but I was afraid to take it because I was afraid of my family's reaction. Perhaps that it is not such a good idea. But trust me, I do understand that my existence does not have a true objective meaning, that's not the problem. My problem is applying a subjective meaning to my life. I do agree with you that, 20 years is NOT a long time. I've just been having trouble establishing purpose to my life I guess. Maybe I SHOULD take some medication.

Some physical activity, such as a walk can help sometimes.
Nihilism isn't a very jolly world view.

Moreover, I did have a pet. But my brother accidentally killed him with a rifle. That incident hurt me so much...but that is another story. : /

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Some physical activity, such as a walk can help sometimes.
Nihilism isn't a very jolly world view.

You're right....yet, it's the only logical worldview  that my conclusion worked with sadly .

Depression is often caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.  It can also be a symptom of other underlying medical issues, and sometimes can be related to environmental and situational circumstances.

Only a doctor can tell you if you are depressed, though-we can only advise you what we think.  I'd make an appointment to see a psychologist, and if they feel it's a chemical thing as opposed to something else, than can refer you to a psychiatrist who can treat you accordingly.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Depression is often caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.  It can also be a symptom of other underlying medical issues, and sometimes can be related to environmental and situational circumstances.

Only a doctor can tell you if you are depressed, though-we can only advise you what we think.  I'd make an appointment to see a psychologist, and if they feel it's a chemical thing as opposed to something else, than can refer you to a psychiatrist who can treat you accordingly.

Thanks Phil. It's difficult for me to see a school psychologist because they automatically referred me to a black one simply because I was 'black.' Yet, all she did was talk about how Jesus died on a cross (and that didn't help me AT all). I will take your advice, and try to seek help, I just thought that I never needed it. Thanks guys.

Do you have health insurance?  If so, ask your insurance company to refer you to someone who doesn't work for your school.  And FYI, I'd report that doctor who preached to you.  That's 110% unprofessional coming from any medical or psychiatric professional, unless you first ask them to pray with you or something of that nature.

If you don't have health insurance or you're unemployed, or both, you may be able to qualify for charity care or income based payments so you can see a mental health professional at reduced cost or for free.  I don't know the individual laws for your state, but I'd be happy to try to help you figure out where you can go to talk to someone.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Do you have health insurance?  If so, ask your insurance company to refer you to someone who doesn't work for your school.  And FYI, I'd report that doctor who preached to you.  That's 110% unprofessional coming from any medical or psychiatric professional, unless you first ask them to pray with you or something of that nature.

If you don't have health insurance or you're unemployed, or both, you may be able to qualify for charity care or income based payments so you can see a mental health professional at reduced cost or for free.  I don't know the individual laws for your state, but I'd be happy to try to help you figure out where you can go to talk to someone.

Then perhaps I need to check that out. I admit, when I talked with my first psychologist I was very religious. Maybe I should try those same people without such an attitude. I live in CA, but I've not checked out ALL of my options. Perhaps, it's abou time because my depression is BEGINNING to affect my life.

You may find this link helpful: http://findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/Search_HCC_byAddr.aspx

You can use it to search for federally funded health care clinics that can provide the type of charity care I mentioned above.

Also, ignoring the name of the website, this page has a lot of links for different centers in California that might also be helpful for you: http://www.ihatemylife.us/medical.html

Quote from: "Cite134"Moreover, I did have a pet. But my brother accidentally killed him with a rifle. That incident hurt me so much...but that is another story. : /

Oh fuck! Sorry about reminding you about that. I think you need to sell your brothers rifle and use the money to buy a new pet, that would probably be better all around.

Quote from: "Cite134"

Quote from: "Tank"20 years old is nothing. You're still a kid. I can say that as my kids are 23,23 & 26 and they are still maturing. Depression is a horrible debilitating feeling and when you're sat at the bottom of that big dark pit very little helps. This might sound really trite but do you have a pet? This might sound selfish but a pet dog is a wonderful friend. They say money can't by love, well that may be true but it sure as hell can buy a companion that will stop you trying to step over the brink.

The other thing that helps is trying to stop seeing oneself as the centre of all the shit things going on in ones life. It makes you feel impotent and victimised and that causes a downward spiral.

Depression can be caused by some illnesses, diabetes being one of them. Have you had a thorough medical since you started feeling depressed? If not then do so, there could be something physical underpinning your depressive state. I have felt shite for the last few months and had put it down to circumstance. But yesterday I had my diabetic check up and they added a new medication. I felt better within minutes of taking it and it has nothing to do with depression as such, it mediates sugar uptake.

Just a few thoughts.

Not really. I've talked to one of my doctors at my college....and he subscribed medication, but I was afraid to take it because I was afraid of my family's reaction. Perhaps that it is not such a good idea. But trust me, I do understand that my existence does not have a true objective meaning, that's not the problem. My problem is applying a subjective meaning to my life. I do agree with you that, 20 years is NOT a long time. I've just been having trouble establishing purpose to my life I guess. Maybe I SHOULD take some medication.

I was on anti-anxiety medication for just short of a year and they do make life tolerable which is a step in the right direction and allows you to change your life style so you don't need them any more. In addition hiding your condition from your family may not be the wisest thing to do. If you keep telling people you are okay, they will think you are okay, why wouldn't they? If you want an honest reaction from somebody you have to be honest with them otherwise all they are doing is reacting to the mask you are hiding behind.

Quote from: "Cite134"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Some physical activity, such as a walk can help sometimes.
Nihilism isn't a very jolly world view.

You're right....yet, it's the only logical worldview  that my conclusion worked with sadly .

FUCK LOGIC then! You have one life, one unique gift of luck, you exist! So FFS do what you want to do it's the only F***ing chance you're ever going to get. Christ you're 20 man. Get yourself into situations where you meet real people in real life and find people like yourself. If there isn't an atheist club near you bloody well start one! Lots of people will come and find you then, life will no longer be boring, you might even get some exercise as TMP suggested. Stop looking inwards and start looking outwards.

I've been suicidal sine I was about 8.  I feel for you, but I can't really help much.

Quote from: "Cite134"

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Depression is often caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.  It can also be a symptom of other underlying medical issues, and sometimes can be related to environmental and situational circumstances.

Only a doctor can tell you if you are depressed, though-we can only advise you what we think.  I'd make an appointment to see a psychologist, and if they feel it's a chemical thing as opposed to something else, than can refer you to a psychiatrist who can treat you accordingly.

Thanks Phil. It's difficult for me to see a school psychologist because they automatically referred me to a black one simply because I was 'black.' Yet, all she did was talk about how Jesus died on a cross (and that didn't help me AT all). I will take your advice, and try to seek help, I just thought that I never needed it. Thanks guys.

Oh F***ing joy! This guys black send him to  black psychologist! FFS!  :rant: What is it with Americans, race and religion?

I can see why Dawkins gets so pissed off when I read stuff like this. Christ I could almost spit  

Re-reading this thread... We are a sad bunch, are we not?  :pop:

OP, have you tried a doctor in stead of the psychologists? Psychologists are mostly useless to you, I suspect, since, by what I have read this far, you probably have something wrong with you that can not be talked into submission.

Quote from: "PS"I've been suicidal sine I was about 8. I feel for you, but I can't really help much.

Forgive the lack of political correctness, but how are you still alive..? I've had four suicidal episodes each lasting for no more than a month or so and each landed me in a hospital in worse condition than the last... 10 years of that, and I'd be deader than Jesus.

For the record, someone seeking care for a psychiatric illness should see a psychiatrist, not a regular medical doctor.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"For the record, someone seeking care for a psychiatric illness should see a psychiatrist, not a regular medical doctor.

A psychiatrist IS a medical doctor. A psychologist, however, is not.

A general practitioner can refer you to a psychiatrist if a psychologist fails to.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "philosoraptor"For the record, someone seeking care for a psychiatric illness should see a psychiatrist, not a regular medical doctor.

A psychiatrist IS a medical doctor. A psychologist, however, is not.

Yes, obviously.  However, a medical doctor is not a psychiatrist.  That was the distinction I was making.  Saying "doctor" without making the distinction is slightly ambiguous, since GPs can prescribe psych drugs.  Just because they can though, doesn't mean they should.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Who here is NOT a pill-popper, raise your hands!  :P
Don't mean I haven't suffered from depression though...
So yeah, we're still a sad bunch of people.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "PS"I've been suicidal sine I was about 8. I feel for you, but I can't really help much.

Forgive the lack of political correctness, but how are you still alive..? I've had four suicidal episodes each lasting for no more than a month or so and each landed me in a hospital in worse condition than the last... 10 years of that, and I'd be deader than Jesus.

Fear of hell kept me alive until I discovered drugs.  Drugs kept me... in various states of mind for a while.  My kids are preventing me from doing it now, as I can't conscionably leave them without a father.  I am planning on doing the deed after they're self-sufficient, but that's another 15 years (about), so I don't know.  I do my best not to take it out on the kids and like most mental problems, it comes and goes.  There have been days where I've decided to lay in bed and die.  I have yet to will myself to death.

ETA: As for pill popping, I prefer smoking maryjane, but have been known to pop a pill or two.  I like oxycontin the best because you can wash off the stomach coating a snort it but it doesn't burn.

No pill popper here.   There seems to be a lot of research behind the 6-step cure for depression.  I would post a link, but that would be spammy.  Basically, it's doing all the things known to help lift one's mood.  Getting sunlight, exercise, human contact, proper nutrients and recognizing and stopping negative thoughts before they spiral downward are all important.  It's called the Therapeutic Life Change program.  The book shows how the Western diet may contribute to depression and how our natural response to depression often makes it much worse.  Obviously, a book such as this is not substitute for a proper psychologists, but sometimes we work with what we can afford.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Fear of hell kept me alive until I discovered drugs.  Drugs kept me... in various states of mind for a while.  My kids are preventing me from doing it now, as I can't conscionably leave them without a father.  I am planning on doing the deed after they're self-sufficient, but that's another 15 years (about), so I don't know.  I do my best not to take it out on the kids and like most mental problems, it comes and goes.  There have been days where I've decided to lay in bed and die.  I have yet to will myself to death.

ETA: As for pill popping, I prefer smoking maryjane, but have been known to pop a pill or two.  I like oxycontin the best because you can wash off the stomach coating a snort it but it doesn't burn.

Yeah, I think there is some hope for you... You have not (yet) reached the stage where nothing matters, or rather, where your coping capabilities are far outweighed by your circumstances. Maybe you never will. That's not a good place to be...

As for drugs (Here meaning illegal narcotics only), that is something I do not do. It's a personal thing and a long story, but I keep as far away from those as I can. All my pills are perscribed and none of them are, per definition, narcotic.  

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Basically, it's doing all the things known to help lift one's mood.  Getting sunlight, exercise, human contact, proper nutrients and recognizing and stopping negative thoughts before they spiral downward are all important.  It's called the Therapeutic Life Change program.

Not to judge what may possibly work on somebody under certain circumstances, but when reading this, my thoughts generally went in "Whatta load of crap"-direction  

Here are my subjective thoughts on the points mentioned:

1. Sunlight when I'm down makes me want to go homicidal on a massive scale. The less I see, the better.

2. Exercise, while generally good for health, is likely to bring me down rather than lift my mood. Exercise always tended to do that before and I can't see why it wouldn't today. (Being physically tired is the key here - the more tired, the more miserable)

3. Human contact is good and well, but when one distrusts humans - even those relatively close - except for a few who don't really have the time for proper contact... Well, you see how a speck of social anxiety would ruin that right there.

4. I went through several degrees of proper in regard to neutrition without it having any at all marked effect on me being miserable.

5. "Stopping" the negative thoughts..? Is there an instruction manual for that?

Sorry, but I'm not buying that at all. Unless you are going through a rough patch with divorse, unemployment or the like, I don't think that there holds any water at all in regard to depression. Probably good for healthier living, but for those who are depressed due to personality disorders or chemical imbalances, the problem is usually more complex, involving social anxiety and the like which makes those steps hard to follow.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Yeah, I think there is some hope for you... You have not (yet) reached the stage where nothing matters, or rather, where your coping capabilities are far outweighed by your circumstances. Maybe you never will. That's not a good place to be...

My childhood experiences have forced me to put logic above emotion.  It's not that nothing matters, it's that when I feel that way, my logical mind kicks in.

QuoteAs for drugs (Here meaning illegal narcotics only), that is something I do not do. It's a personal thing and a long story, but I keep as far away from those as I can. All my pills are perscribed and none of them are, per definition, narcotic.  

Prescription drugs make me feel like a zombie and my mind doesn't work right.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Prescription drugs make me feel like a zombie and my mind doesn't work right.

Weird how some people describe them as such... For me, they do the opposite - make my mind work as it bloody well should.  

Quote from: "Asmodean"Weird how some people describe them as such... For me, they do the opposite - make my mind work as it bloody well should.  

They do well for a lot of people.  I personally think it has to do with the fact that I trained my mind to function through the depression.  Honestly, when I find myself in a good mood, I can't think straight.  It's like I'm drunk or something.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"My childhood experiences have forced me to put logic above emotion.  It's not that nothing matters, it's that when I feel that way, my logical mind kicks in.

What do you mean by that..?

(Hiding suicide content in spoilers. Kids may find it and find it cool, you know...   )
[spoiler:1h5vt7gi]Again, a subjective thing, but following logic, I'd probably still aspire to get very dead very fast unless of course I WAS. Logic (As I can conjure it) dictates that if the shit in your life is not outweighed by the rewards it yields, the sensible thing is to end it. And if your life's pleasures outweigh its downsides, then why are you suicidal in the first place?[/spoiler:1h5vt7gi]

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "PoopShoot"My childhood experiences have forced me to put logic above emotion.  It's not that nothing matters, it's that when I feel that way, my logical mind kicks in.

What do you mean by that..?

I mean that when I get mad, my subconscious starts returning analytical data about the situation to my conscious mind.  Or something like that.  It's hard to explain.

Quote[spoiler:1ixbqkgg]Again, a subjective thing, but following logic, I'd probably still aspire to get very dead very fast unless of course I WAS. Logic (As I can conjure it) dictates that if the shit in your life is not outweighed by the rewards it yields, the sensible thing is to end it. And if your life's pleasures outweigh its downsides, then why are you suicidal in the first place?[/spoiler:1ixbqkgg]

[spoiler:1ixbqkgg]Logic once dictated that living a short life followed by heaven was the only way to fix my depression, but that going to hell of suicide would prolong it forever.  Logic later dictated that drugs were fun and that I was too stoned to care that I was generally unhappy. Aside form that, many of the drugs I used to do increased dopamine, making me feel happy.  Logic now tells me that generating psychoses in my children won't stop the cycle.  When I'm dead, it doesn't matter to me, but logic dictates that since I care about my children (though the care itself is purely emotional), I want their life to be better than mine.  I can't kill myself at a time when that would likely trigger a psychosis.  Also, it comes and goes, so it's not like I'm in constant desire to die.[/spoiler:1ixbqkgg]

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Basically, it's doing all the things known to help lift one's mood.  Getting sunlight, exercise, human contact, proper nutrients and recognizing and stopping negative thoughts before they spiral downward are all important.  It's called the Therapeutic Life Change program.

Not to judge what may possibly work on somebody under certain circumstances, but when reading this, my thoughts generally went in "Whatta load of crap"-direction  

Here are my subjective thoughts on the points mentioned:

1. Sunlight when I'm down makes me want to go homicidal on a massive scale. The less I see, the better.

2. Exercise, while generally good for health, is likely to bring me down rather than lift my mood. Exercise always tended to do that before and I can't see why it wouldn't today. (Being physically tired is the key here - the more tired, the more miserable)

3. Human contact is good and well, but when one distrusts humans - even those relatively close - except for a few who don't really have the time for proper contact... Well, you see how a speck of social anxiety would ruin that right there.

4. I went through several degrees of proper in regard to neutrition without it having any at all marked effect on me being miserable.

5. "Stopping" the negative thoughts..? Is there an instruction manual for that?

Sorry, but I'm not buying that at all. Unless you are going through a rough patch with divorse, unemployment or the like, I don't think that there holds any water at all in regard to depression. Probably good for healthier living, but for those who are depressed due to personality disorders or chemical imbalances, the problem is usually more complex, involving social anxiety and the like which makes those steps hard to follow.

I'm not asking you to buy it. Or even try it. Just a suggestion.  Btw, the answer to 5. is yes.  Recognizing and challenging negative thoughts is outlined in many books.  Yes, the steps are hard to follow.  If there was an easy way to combat depression, there wouldn't be so much of it.  You seem to have your depression under control, if drugs work for you, I'm sincerely happy for you.  The unfortunate fact is that they don't work for everybody.   There is a lot of promising info on the internet about the TLC method.  This isn't some Tony Robbins self help kind of deal.

Having battled major depression most of my life, I really resent comments along the lines of get some sun or go exercise, as if it's that simple.  If that was all it took to cure depression, almost no one would be depressed.  I do most of those things anyway on a daily basis and it doesn't make me feel any less shitty on a really bad day.  I feel like those kind of suggestions marginalize the seriousness of suffering from depression, on top of being insufferably condescending and patronizing.  Going out in the sun may insure I get some vitamin D, but it's not going to do shit if I have a chemical deficiency or my best friend just died or I lost my job, etc...

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Having battled major depression most of my life, I really resent comments along the lines of get some sun or go exercise, as if it's that simple.  If that was all it took to cure depression, almost no one would be depressed.  I do most of those things anyway on a daily basis and it doesn't make me feel any less shitty on a really bad day.  I feel like those kind of suggestions marginalize the seriousness of suffering from depression, on top of being insufferably condescending and patronizing.  Going out in the sun may insure I get some vitamin D, but it's not going to do shit if I have a chemical deficiency or my best friend just died or I lost my job, etc...

But nobody said that.  They said that sun and exercise HELP.  They do.  Many of the same endorphins that your body releases in response to sunlight and exercise (even mild exercise for the person who said 'getting tired makes me depressed') are the same chemicals that you are lacking when you have clinical depression.  Hell, when I'm feeling like I'm about to lose it, I go for a walk in the country (and living in rural Kentucky, I mean THE COUNTRY).  Feels good, man.  I don't think anyone marginalized the situation by saying 'but don't take legitimately prescribed medication or follow the advice of a legitimate therapist'.  I have seen a lot of people get indignant at these kinds of idea, yet never have I seen anyone get indignant when people say 'a gallon of fudge ice cream seems to perk me right up'.  Why do you think that is?

Quote from: "Cite134"Is it really a sickness as psychologists desrcibe it to be? I am not sure if I have been really suffering from it or not...but I have had many 'down' periods...especially this summer. My lack of social connection with people has been a heavy contribution to my pessimistic attitude and supposed depression, being an existential nihilist.

Forgive me if I get too personal, but I have had about 2 or 3 suicide attempts due to depression. I am afraid to let my family know of this condition because they are really religious. I am only 20 years old, and I am not sure what to do. There seems to be alot of older and wiser people on this forum...and I was wondering if I could get any advice. My mind is more scrambled than an egg, and I am not sure if it's due to my transition from a child to an adult, or a genuine state of depression . Can anyone help?

Depression is properly called a disorder, and if it is involved with suicide attempts, a fairly serious one.  The terms "illness" and "disease" in modern medical parlance imply an etiology, and there is no known etiology for depression.  The term "chemical imbalance" is a kind of folk description; evidence-based medicine has given up on the notion of an imbalance of chemicals or "humours" as a cause of disease, though from Roman times to the Renaissance it was quite popular.  I think that people keep it around because it provides an alternative to other folk descriptions of depression, such as "laziness," "character defect," and even "demonic possession."  Still, it's highly misleading and not very good as an explanation.

What we do know is that various neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, are involved in some way, and that tinkering with reuptake (as in SSRIs) and slowing down excretion (as in MAOIs).  There are other drugs, such as lithium carbonate (which changes the action potentials in neurons.  Other drugs, such as anxiolytics, tranquilizers, and even beta blockers are sometimes used.

These drugs sometimes help, so don't sneeze at the idea.  Some of them don't work.  Some of them work for a while and then stop working.  It also differs from person to person.  Depression varies so much between people that it's anywhere from difficult to impossible to predict a particular person's reaction.  It's a complex and poorly understood system.  Most of the drugs were developed by putting rat brains in bladders, and this is impractical as a diagnostic tool for humans.  I saw one study a long time ago that concluded that serotonin receptors were more numerous but smaller in depressed people, but 1) the sample size was small, 2) I haven't seen a replication, and 3) nobody knows if this would be a cause or a result of depression, or both.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Having battled major depression most of my life, I really resent comments along the lines of get some sun or go exercise, as if it's that simple.  If that was all it took to cure depression, almost no one would be depressed.  I do most of those things anyway on a daily basis and it doesn't make me feel any less shitty on a really bad day.  I feel like those kind of suggestions marginalize the seriousness of suffering from depression, on top of being insufferably condescending and patronizing.  Going out in the sun may insure I get some vitamin D, but it's not going to do shit if I have a chemical deficiency or my best friend just died or I lost my job, etc...

But nobody said that.  They said that sun and exercise HELP.  They do.  Many of the same endorphins that your body releases in response to sunlight and exercise (even mild exercise for the person who said 'getting tired makes me depressed') are the same chemicals that you are lacking when you have clinical depression.  Hell, when I'm feeling like I'm about to lose it, I go for a walk in the country (and living in rural Kentucky, I mean THE COUNTRY).  Feels good, man.  I don't think anyone marginalized the situation by saying 'but don't take legitimately prescribed medication or follow the advice of a legitimate therapist'.  I have seen a lot of people get indignant at these kinds of idea, yet never have I seen anyone get indignant when people say 'a gallon of fudge ice cream seems to perk me right up'.  Why do you think that is?

Having been through major depressions myself (almost to the point of being hospitalized), I can say that exercise does help a bit.  It's not a cure-all.  Diet is not a cure-all.  They can be helpful, however.  During my last major depression, walking helped wear me out physically so I did at least sleep a bit better - and making the effort to eat better forced me to admit that I just might be worth that effort.  Find a doctor to talk to, preferably a psychiatrist.  If you have battled depression for that long, it probably is something biological and drugs could help (taken on the advice of your doctor, of course).

Quote from: "Velma"Having been through major depressions myself (almost to the point of being hospitalized), I can say that exercise does help a bit.  It's not a cure-all.  Diet is not a cure-all.  They can be helpful, however.  During my last major depression, walking helped wear me out physically so I did at least sleep a bit better - and making the effort to eat better forced me to admit that I just might be worth that effort.  

It takes the edge off.  I've never ended up in a place where I have become willing to hurt my children, but that's partially due to proactive efforts to do SOMETHING else.

QuoteFind a doctor to talk to, preferably a psychiatrist.  If you have battled depression for that long, it probably is something biological and drugs could help (taken on the advice of your doctor, of course).

If I could afford it, I might.  In the past, the drugs the doctors gave me made it worse.

Um, I meant no offense with my suggestion.  I definitely didn't mean something like "stop being a gloomy guss and go get some sun".

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Um, I meant no offense with my suggestion.  I definitely didn't mean something like "stop being a gloomy guss and go get some sun".

Some of them mushrooms in your av would do me fine.  Plus, it makes your piss hallucinogenic, so it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Um, I meant no offense with my suggestion.  I definitely didn't mean something like "stop being a gloomy guss and go get some sun".

Relax.  It's almost impossible not to offend someone with depression.  One of the symptoms of depression is that it makes the people who have it not think properly.

Quote from: "epepke"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Um, I meant no offense with my suggestion.  I definitely didn't mean something like "stop being a gloomy guss and go get some sun".

Relax.  It's almost impossible not to offend someone with depression.  One of the symptoms of depression is that it makes the people who have it not think properly.

I see what you did thar.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Um, I meant no offense with my suggestion.  I definitely didn't mean something like "stop being a gloomy guss and go get some sun".

Some of them mushrooms in your av would do me fine.  Plus, it makes your piss hallucinogenic, so it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Have those mushrooms got anything to do with this?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 27,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909327,00.html)

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Um, I meant no offense with my suggestion.  I definitely didn't mean something like "stop being a gloomy guss and go get some sun".

Some of them mushrooms in your av would do me fine.  Plus, it makes your piss hallucinogenic, so it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Have those mushrooms got anything to do with this?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 27,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909327,00.html)

That's the stuff Philip K. Dick wrote about.

Seriously, though, hallucinogenic mushrooms do seem to affect serotonin levels.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Um, I meant no offense with my suggestion.  I definitely didn't mean something like "stop being a gloomy guss and go get some sun".

Some of them mushrooms in your av would do me fine.  Plus, it makes your piss hallucinogenic, so it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Have those mushrooms got anything to do with this?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 27,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909327,00.html)

Dude is gone. Those caps have his mind

Quote from: "humblesmurph"No pill popper here.   There seems to be a lot of research behind the 6-step cure for depression.  I would post a link, but that would be spammy.  Basically, it's doing all the things known to help lift one's mood.  Getting sunlight, exercise, human contact, proper nutrients and recognizing and stopping negative thoughts before they spiral downward are all important.  It's called the Therapeutic Life Change program.  The book shows how the Western diet may contribute to depression and how our natural response to depression often makes it much worse.  Obviously, a book such as this is not substitute for a proper psychologists, but sometimes we work with what we can afford.

Posting a link for reference isn't spam (at least not here).

That sounds a lot like what I do to manage depression...though I'm not always that great at stopping the negativity before it gets a bit further than the normal range.  But, my depression is typically linked to real life issues (that perhaps I worry about more than I should) rather than just happening for no apparent reason...except for winter, winter makes me sad (going to get one of those lamps this year to see if it helps).  

For me, exercise helps a lot more than any drug I've been prescribed.  Though that can be hard to get yourself to do if you feel dumpy.

Ways I have found to deal with depression.

1st is work out. Get out of the house! Go do something and make sure it involves a raised heart rate. The physical activity alone will keep a majority of people from sinking into an atmosphere based depression.

2nd, is get laid. If yer a girl, this is cake. If yer a guy, do not be afraid to lower your standards a bit. You need the attention. She needs the attention. You can quell you conscious about how you thought it would last later but if you NEED somebody, don't be too big to ask for it.

3rd is avoid your house. Many of the people who are depressed stay in the same environment while worrying creating a spiral of no hope that they can't see a door out of. The door is right there. Get out of the environment and you will find answers.

4th is don't be afraid to chuck everything and redirect your life. This is a hard thing to do with many people investing so much time in something. At your age, there are plenty of places you can be and college is just one of them. If it isn't time for college, leave. Set your own path and you have no borders.

Lastly, when you decide for that change, don't chose get married. Finding some ugly chic that gave great head is a good thing, but its not the epiphany you were after. It comes from looking at yourself and what you know of you, finding what you want, researching how to get there, and setting your sails.

Don't be afraid to be selfish. Your life is yours, have fun!

DISCLAIMER: This is from a 20 year old male mental health standpoint and the language is for that reason massively chauvinistic. If that bothers you, you are probably not a depressed 20 year old guy so I make no apologies.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Have those mushrooms got anything to do with this?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 27,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909327,00.html)

I skimmed the article, but fly agaric is one of the likely culpirits for a lot of the religious stories of the area if mushrooms are to blame.  Swami in India and Pakistan (in certain texts) were revered for being able to give followers visions through their piss.  This is a strong indicator that they were using agaric.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I'm not asking you to buy it. Or even try it. Just a suggestion.  Btw, the answer to 5. is yes.  Recognizing and challenging negative thoughts is outlined in many books.  Yes, the steps are hard to follow.  If there was an easy way to combat depression, there wouldn't be so much of it.  You seem to have your depression under control, if drugs work for you, I'm sincerely happy for you.  The unfortunate fact is that they don't work for everybody.   There is a lot of promising info on the internet about the TLC method.  This isn't some Tony Robbins self help kind of deal.

Again, as stated, it may work for some people. But I think its effectiveness is largely outlined by the type of depression you are having and its causes.

And yes, for me, antidepressants work very well. So I have found my easy solution  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I'm not asking you to buy it. Or even try it. Just a suggestion.  Btw, the answer to 5. is yes.  Recognizing and challenging negative thoughts is outlined in many books.  Yes, the steps are hard to follow.  If there was an easy way to combat depression, there wouldn't be so much of it.  You seem to have your depression under control, if drugs work for you, I'm sincerely happy for you.  The unfortunate fact is that they don't work for everybody.   There is a lot of promising info on the internet about the TLC method.  This isn't some Tony Robbins self help kind of deal.

Again, as stated, it may work for some people. But I think its effectiveness is largely outlined by the type of depression you are having and its causes.

And yes, for me, antidepressants work very well. So I have found my easy solution  

You didn't say that it may work for some people.   You said was that you didn't think it worked for anybody.  Of course everybody is different.  It's a 10 dollar book that can likely be had for free and it's a quick read.  All that is wasted by giving it a look is a few moments of time.   Drugs aren't an option for some people, what do you suggest they do?

Quote from: "humblesmurph"You didn't say that it may work for some people.   You said was that you didn't think it worked for anybody.

:P

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"You didn't say that it may work for some people.   You said was that you didn't think it worked for anybody.

:P

Get a good old-fashioned reason for living seems like callous and ineffectual advice.    Some people don't have psychiatrists.  People without health insurance get depressed too.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Get a good old-fashioned reason for living seems like callous and ineffectual advice.

Callous, yes, ineffectual, not necessarily.  It's quite pragmatic and the only reason it would be ineffectual would be how it's parsed.  Of course noone is going to take advice that hurt their butt, but butthurt doesn't deter everyone and the people who take it to heart could benefit from it.  Quite franly, having a good old fashioned reason to live has literally saved my life on more than one occasion.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Get a good old-fashioned reason for living seems like callous and ineffectual advice.

Callous, yes, ineffectual, not necessarily.  It's quite pragmatic and the only reason it would be ineffectual would be how it's parsed.  Of course noone is going to take advice that hurt their butt, but butthurt doesn't deter everyone and the people who take it to heart could benefit from it.  Quite franly, having a good old fashioned reason to live has literally saved my life on more than one occasion.

Point taken.  I think I take things too literally.  I presume by one's continued existence that they have some reason to live.  Sometimes that reason is simply the fear of committing suicide.  I'm %100 in favor of whatever keeps you alive.  However, if one wants to get better, it seems to me that one eventually has to do a little more than just make it to the next day.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"However, if one wants to get better, it seems to me that one eventually has to do a little more than just make it to the next day.

This bears underlining.  Or repeating.  Or highlighting.  Or...

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Get a good old-fashioned reason for living seems like callous and ineffectual advice.    Some people don't have psychiatrists.  People without health insurance get depressed too.

I KNEW I shoulda' used more emoticons...  :P And in my country, people without health insurance get psychiatric help as well as everyone else, so I guess I'm sort of biased that way.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Get a good old-fashioned reason for living seems like callous and ineffectual advice.    Some people don't have psychiatrists.  People without health insurance get depressed too.

I KNEW I shoulda' used more emoticons...  :P And in my country, people without health insurance get psychiatric help as well as everyone else, so I guess I'm sort of biased that way.

I figured as much, but one can never be sure what one means without emoticons.

Oh, well, I might as well tell my story.

I had serious depression since about 1973.  I saw a bunch of "counselors," who never did me any good and usually just frustrated me.  I presented around 1981 to the college health department for treatment.  They gave me Stelazine, which just turned me into a zombie.  I understand why they wanted to turn me into a zombie, but it was the wrong treatment for me.  Around 1983 to 1985, I had serious suicidal ideation.  This was temporarily abated by a short seduction in displaced mode arranged by a lesbian friend of mine.  I started to have a semblance of a life, but there was a short cycle of around 21 days, when I had severe depressions, and a long cycle of about a year and a half.  Around 1992, I decided to present for treatment again.  I was diagnosed as Bipolar II.  This is a form of bipolar that doesn't involve much mania but involves regular depressions that are generally acknowledged as the most severe known to psychiatry.  I was given Buspar, a non-benzodiazepine anxiolytic.  It actually worked, though I got some serotonin sickness.  It also stopped being effective about a year later.  I had many other medications, including Serzone, Prozac, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, the benzodiazepines Ativan and Klonopin, and the neuroleptic Neurontin (gabapentin).

I also did something quite unusual.  Immediately when the Buspar took effect, I embarked on a program to repair damage to my brain/mind by psychological means.  I used dreamwork, Cognitive/Rational Emotive/Behavioral Therapy (hard to remember the acronym du jour), and quite a few techniques I invented myself.  I confronted my thinking patterns and emotional states rather brutally.  I was pretty much done by around 1998 and 1999.  I have not needed medication since then.  I may get glum from time to time, but it is not within orders of magnitude what I experienced.  As far as I can tell, I may have the same cycles I had back then, but they don't affect my life much.

I think I learned a few things along this process.

1) If you haven't experienced this kind of thing, you have no clue what this is like.  You really don't.  Feeling low or down or glum is like a drop of water in comparison to a flood.  There are feelings of extreme helplessness and frustration.  When people say certain things, one's mind spirals out of control into what I call the Vortex.  Some people understand immediately what I mean by that, and others never will.  There is really no way to describe this, but I'll try.  There is a condition where people wake up, but the mechanisms that keep the body paralyzed in sleep are still active.  So one has the experience of being conscious but unable to move.  There are also cases where anesthesia wears off but the paralyzing drugs are still working, so one feels the pain of surgery but cannot do anything about this.  Most people who experience either of these conditions express that they felt terror.  Depression is like this, except it is like this all the time, to the point where one's circuits burn out from the terror, and what is left is a seemingly inescapable hell.

2) If you are experiencing this, or even if you have in the past year, you have no clue what reality is like.  You really don't.  This should be trivially obvious, but like many such things, it seems not to be.  Considering how marvelous life and the universe is, for someone to consider it hopeless and that they should not live indicates that there is something very serious going on.  Depression causes a monumental kind of stupidity.  The big problem is that this stupidity (again, obviously but not acknowledged) prevents depressed people from doing the things that might help.  Curing the prejudice against trying this or that to repair the disorder is tantamount to repairing the disorder itself.

3) However, all my experience is that confronting the most offensive, the most painful, the most fearful, the most cruel, the most callous things were exactly what I needed.  The things that increased the pain of depression were exactly the things that I had to face head-on.  The drugs gave me some temporary boost to tackle those things, but I needed to tackle them, not just sit with my thumb up my butt and imagine that the drugs would make me feel better forever.

4) When I tell people I got over it, a nearly universal response is to tell me that it is impossible.  To which my only possible response is, "well, if I tell you what I did you'll just abuse me because it challenges your worldview, and I'm not going to subject myself to your abuse."

epepke,

Congratulations on your success in facing your emotions and mental formations.  It can't have been easy to keep at it while in the midst of the depression.  Thank you for telling about your experience.

Quote from: "notself"epepke,

Congratulations on your success in facing your emotions and mental formations.  It can't have been easy to keep at it while in the midst of the depression.  Thank you for telling about your experience.

Thanks.  It actually wasn't so bad; the hardest part was making the commitment to do it in the first place.  Once that was done, I just used my stubbornness from my scientific training to try this and that and eventually find what worked.  It was certainly in toto a hell of a lot better than being depressed.  But then again, mine was really severe and had really lasted for a long time, and I was really sick and tired of being sick and tired.  I think that maybe people who haven't been as impaired and can still do things like have children at the approved time may not get the experience of hitting absolute rock bottom and rebounding therefrom.

Vitamin D deficiency may be linked to depression. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20450340 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20450340)

It is clearly linked to breast and prostate cancer, osteomalacia, osteoporosis and other common conditions.  70% of American adults are deficient in Vitamin D.  In spite of this, Vitamin D is seldom part of routine blood analysis.

Quote from: "epepke"3) However, all my experience is that confronting the most offensive, the most painful, the most fearful, the most cruel, the most callous things were exactly what I needed.  The things that increased the pain of depression were exactly the things that I had to face head-on.  The drugs gave me some temporary boost to tackle those things, but I needed to tackle them, not just sit with my thumb up my butt and imagine that the drugs would make me feel better forever.

I got depressed because of external forces that went away, so I'm not depressed anymore. So it's not the situation you fought your way through. But I can understand this part of your post because in the end I had to stand up to what was causing my depression and the medication helped me do that, which in the end allowed me to overcome what was causing the depression.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "epepke"3) However, all my experience is that confronting the most offensive, the most painful, the most fearful, the most cruel, the most callous things were exactly what I needed.  The things that increased the pain of depression were exactly the things that I had to face head-on.  The drugs gave me some temporary boost to tackle those things, but I needed to tackle them, not just sit with my thumb up my butt and imagine that the drugs would make me feel better forever.

I got depressed because of external forces that went away, so I'm not depressed anymore. So it's not the situation you fought your way through. But I can understand this part of your post because in the end I had to stand up to what was causing my depression and the medication helped me do that, which in the end allowed me to overcome what was causing the depression.

How long were those external forces there?  It's very difficult, I think, when one is depressed to distinguish between external forces, trained responses to external forces, and something innate.

Anyway, you have the process down right.  The drugs should be viewed like the starter motor on a car.  They make the engine go for a bit, but while it's cranking, it has to catch.

But you have reminded me of something that belongs here; thanks.  People have the tendency to think of depression as an unusual condition, a departure from what for want of a better word we'll call "happiness."  However, happiness is an active, not a passive thing.  One must work at it every day.

Of course, that's why this forum appeals to me.

~how does it make you feel? this is a sensitive and emotional topic for me. when i was around 14,15,16 (i'm 19 now) i went through a very long bout of severe depression that kept getting worse as time went on. it got to the point where i didn't even know what happy was and i could barely even experience pleasant feelings. i was sort of a mean kid to others and didn't like people much. i was angry and had a lot of contempt how pretentious everything was around me and i also felt there were too few people like me. i didn't even get along with my parents for a long time and felt a lot of friction with everyone close to me except for my little brother, or my son. i didn't want to kill myself, but i certainly didn't rule it out. i had complete apathy and felt indifference whether i lived or died. i had friends and still kept close with my family, but i acted withdrawn, detached, and reclused around everyone and uninterested in what they had to say and was pretty negative all the time. i wanted to be left alone by others and reciprocated this feeling to others. for a while, i didn't want help or anything because i thought that's just how i was and it wouldn't matter anyway because i thought (still do) society was so fucked up. but i got so miserable that i just wanted it to end. i didn't make any attempts to kill myself, i saw a counselor and then was referred to a psychiatrist and eventually a psychologist. the drugs made me feel good b/c zoloft is a fucking amphetamine so what do you expect? but i didn't really solve my problems with depression until i started analyzing my thoughts with a psychologist. i looked at myself more introspectively and sort of discovered an egoist/individualist way of thinking. and no it wasn't from reading max stirner. i kept my depression to myself for a long time, but now i feel much more free to talk about it because it is a very serious issue that i feel much more aware of.

having said all of that, i have sympathy for people in emotional pain and i often wonder that if they approached treatment the way i did, then they would have gotten better. i'm glad i went through this early in my life because i think i have a much steadier philosophy about life and how i will live the rest of it. if i were older, i may have felt time was closing in rather than opening up, and maybe that's why suicide rates are lowest among teens and highest among old people.~

I posted that on another forum just over a year ago on a topic about suicide. There is more I wrote on the subject but it's not relevant here.

I am 20 now and am farther removed from my years of depression (which did not really end until i was 18) and farther from my years at public school. To be perfectly honest, I seriously doubt I would have ever been depressed if not for the constant malaise and monotony of passively accepting orders from uni-lateral authority figures I could easily tell were incompetent, manipulative, masochistic, internally frustrated, emotionally unstable, etc and absolutely garrulous non-sense the other students would endlessly converse about that compelled me to think I was rummaging from class to stupid fucking worthless boring as fuck fucking class with a bunch of degenerative neanderthals capable of only the most rudimentary thought. My depression peaked at the end of my junior year in high school and very early that summer when I just turned 17. I had a little bit of counseling with a really ditzy quack of a horse shit therapist before then and was later recommended by her to a very reputable psychiatrist where my parents were ripped off into paying for an EEG which said i was deficient in histamine. So they gave me what was supposed to be a happy pill that would do something with histamine (the manufacturers and developers of the drugs don't even know how they work) but it didn't do a goddamn thing. So I went back to this guy and he was probably offended that his prescription didn't work and the non-science of psychiatric medicine is obviously just really shitty guess work, so he gave me some zoloft obviously because it's a psychiatrist's dream to have a one-size-"cures"-all pill that you don't have to know shit about and it will still get you results and a whole lot of money.

This brings me into the subject of anti-depressant drugs. Zoloft is an SSRI (not an amphetamine as I mistook it for last year). A selective-serotonin-reuptake- inhibitor is a drug that basically prevents your brain from recycling neurotransmitters, namely serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc. It absolutely does not make your body create more serotonin or whatever. It makes your body keep more of it in your brain and this is why it takes several before you feel its effects and they come about very gradually. Serotonin and other neurotransmitters are naturally made in the gut. If you eat things like turkey, the tryptophan will synthesize into serotonin and you will have more of it. By increasing neurotransmitters this way, you are actually getting to the root of your body's problems (if you actually believe that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance) without poisoning your body with drugs and going through side effects. Side effects of SSRIs tend to be what they are supposed to cure. E.g. anxiety, insomnia, depression, and suicidality. The side effects for me were I felt really cold yet my skin felt like it was on fire, i was shaking, i couldn't sleep, i couldn't eat, i was always extremely charged and manic (even came close to getting arrested several during that glorious, summer-long amphetamine trip). Overall, I loved the drug and basically being high. Zoloft has a half-life of about 26 hours and lasts all day, therefore, I constantly felt that way. Of course, it was like that for the summer.
                                                                                         ~now for the real problem/solution~
I still had to go back to high school for my senior year. Within 2 weeks, I was just as miserable as ever except now i had serious self-control issues because of the zoloft and really pissed off a couple of my teachers but was also appreciated by most surprisingly. It was even worse than before because now it was like being a caged tiger on methamphetamine. So after about 5 weeks, I decided to GTFO and graduate early which is what I should have done when I was about 15 or so. With that story out of the way, it should be clear what the problem was. The zoloft by no means cured my depression. Humans are not simply a compilation of chemicals. Our thoughts and philosophies also make us who we are. I needed to re-evaluate how I saw the world around me and introspectively research myself. That, and get the goddamn sodomy cunting nigger hell out of public school. That's what I needed at least. During my first semester of college, I got some counseling from what I now realize is quite rare and abnormal: a decent psychologist who ask good questions but allowed me to ponder them myself and arrive at my own conclusions. It wasn't long before I think I really came alive and it was so real this time. I was independent from the world around me and didn't care about the things that used to frustrate me and bring me down. It's like I used to get personally offended by how vacuous and pretentious and void of meaningful thought I thought most people were before, but afterward I was much more at peace and was more vibrant as a result. It wasn't through studying Lysander Spooner or Max Stirner. I simply realized that what makes me feel comfortable and what feels right to me is being able to be truly emotionally detached from things that repulsed me (classmates, teachers, religious delusions, etc) and simply be content with everything around me. It no longer angered me that people weren't up to my standards because I could just focus on myself and the people closest to me and so-to-speak "learn to love failure" when it came with everything else. I am explaining this in a pretty shitty way because it's a really visceral thing and I can't explain it intellectually, but somehow I flipped a switch somewhere along the line. I don't mind seeing people be philosophically inept or speak of politics in an irrational, emotional way, people speaking on social issues while being economic ignoramuses nor find the westboro baptist church abhorrent(except how much they indoctrinate kids. that's a real shitter but not even close to what public schools do and i don't really concern myself too much with that because at least for me, I can secede from such an institution). Being at ease with the idea of emotionally abandoning things around me, I think, is why I am over depression.

I don't know any of you here, but it seems lots of us have quite a bit of experience with depression. I don't know anyone here enough at all or enough about your lives to give any advice at all particularly.  But in general, I would suggest a few things that have at least some potential to help and little possiblity to harm.

1. If you are suicidal or have suicidal thoughts, STAY AWAY FROM PHARMACEUTICALS. Anti-depressants in particular are notorious for escalating suicidality in people and have never not once even one time ever nor will ever even one time "cure" depression or make you and your body healthier. Drugs by definition are toxins that your body works to get ride of. Do not put these things into your body if you are already extremely mentally unhealthy. I understand how it feels to not even know what happiness feels like for years at a time, but the risks involved with these drugs are not worth it. If you need a pick me up for a couple of days or a week, try to find something that is non-addictive and has no history of escalating suicidal behavior or exacerbating depression.

2. If you want professional help, start off with a nutritionist. It's fallacious to say "you are what you eat" but it's not that far off. I don't know a whole lot of people who have depression and eat organic, well-balanced diets and get most if not all their necessary nutrients and avoid junk food, soda, starbucks, energy drinks, etc. Try to get your blood-sugar level balanced, enough ATP to the cells etc.

3. Self-fulfilling hobbies never hurt, but they probably won't cure depression either. They may make you feel better, but depression takes place in the mind. You need to address your own thoughts, demons, etc. Introspectively analyze you thought patterns, your responsive tendencies to certain stimuli and situations and try to trace them back to a cause whatever this cause may be. This is a hard one for two reasons. It's difficult to do this accurately completely on your own, and it's probably just as hard to find someone who is competent at asking you probing but helpful questions. Psychologists often are no good because they are among the most socialized people in society. They have Ph.D's, have succeeded tremendously, and had to conform to a lot of social norms in order to get to where they are. Many cannot relate to people who are alienated by society and among the most alienated are their patients. A good psychologist may not be common, but there are some out there. Try to find out the methods of a psychologist before hand and avoid any Freudian horse shit.

4. Never count on anyone's advice to work. No one in the world can tell you how to get over depression or suicidal thoughts. Cures to depression can only be coaxed by others. You have to cure yourself.

This is my first post here, and i can't wait to get to know all better. You seem like an interesting lot of perceptive people, which is probably why depression plagues so many of you. Being explorative with ideas, concepts, philosophy and the world while trying to honestly and intellectually figure it out comes at a price. For me, it's more than well worth it and it's always a great fortune I think people with depression should count.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"This is my first post here, and i can't wait to get to know all better.

With that avatar and worldview, I can imagine that you'll be here for ages to come.  

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"This is my first post here, and i can't wait to get to know all better.

With that avatar and worldview, I can imagine that you'll be here for ages to come.  

You know? I didn't even realize the tandem my avatar and worldview created. Perhaps I need to go and make my positions very clear at the ground zero mosque topic.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"This is my first post here, and i can't wait to get to know all better.

With that avatar and worldview, I can imagine that you'll be here for ages to come.  

You know? I didn't even realize the tandem my avatar and worldview created. Perhaps I need to go and make my positions very clear at the ground zero mosque topic.

Perhaps.  It might also be wise to change "I hate the Jews" to something a little less inflammatory.  Not that I'm not to talk about being inflammatory, just that the resident Jews might appreciate it.

Actually, I don't want to change it. I put that there for a reason, and yes, it is meant to be ironic. I'll explain it on another post.

But as for now, perhaps it would be wise for you to start posting about things a little less irrelevant? Like... something that has to do with depression? Just a suggestion you know?

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"Actually, I don't want to change it. I put that there for a reason, and yes, it is meant to be ironic. I'll explain it on another post.

But as for now, perhaps it would be wise for you to start posting about things a little less irrelevant? Like... something that has to do with depression? Just a suggestion you know?

Just a suggestion, you might want to avoid making your first post to a forum a TLDR with the phrase "cunting nigger" in it.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"But as for now, perhaps it would be wise for you to start posting about things a little less irrelevant?

You can feel free to report me.  I had thought mentioning a possible point of contention that will piss a few people off (including a banhammer happy mod and an overly sensitive person of Jewish descent, among others) was relevant.  It's cool, enjoy your ban.

QuoteLike... something that has to do with depression? Just a suggestion you know?

If you had read the thread, you'd know I've been fairly involved already.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"having said all of that, i have sympathy for people in emotional pain and i often wonder that if they approached treatment the way i did, then they would have gotten better.

Some of them might.  Some of them might not.  I am very much in favor, when facing a problem of any kind, having as wide a variety of tools to try out as possible.  So talk therapy, dreamwork, CET, careful use of psychotropic drugs, and Jungian and other analyses, just to name a few, can be tried.  Having more tools increases the chance that one or more can work, given that cases are different and nobody knows beforehand what exactly will work.  We seem to be in agreement on this one.

Where having many options can be a problem in the use of psychotropics, however.  Common practice seems to be to prescribe a drug and then, if it doesn't work, to add something else.  So maybe they start you out with an SSRI.  Then they add a benzodiazepine.  Then they add an antipsychotic, but only a mild one.  Before you know it, you're taking so many drugs that you don't know what's going on.

With respect to drugs, I've not found SSRIs to do any good, and they messed up my sexuality, which I think is probably why male teenagers kill themselves when they are put on it.  The things I have found useful are as follows:

1) The non-benzodiazepine anxiolytic Buspar.  As I think I mentioned, this worked on me for about a year and a half.  Fortunately, within a couple of months of being prescribed this, I was able to get laid.  It was only my fifth lover.  That helped a lot.

2) Bezodiazepines, but purely PRN and not daily.  I discovered that 2mg Ativan sublingual was able to knock out a mixed state with no other effects if I used it within 20 minutes of feeling one coming on.  To those who do not know what this is, I liken it to running an engine at 6000 RPM without any oil.  It is depression, but with a rapid flight of thoughts about the depression so severe and numerous that it's almost like a seizure disorder, only without physical manifestations.  It's one of the most unpleasant states to be in.

3) Neurontin (gabapentin), which is really a neuroleptic for seizure disorders.

4) Opiates, in a pinch, to stop the mixed states.  This came in handy when I was in England, as products containing a small amount of codeine are available OTC.

5) Protein.  In all seriousness, if I ate a Porterhouse steak or, on a budget, several cans of tuna fish or even some reconstituted egg whites in a shake, I could get out of a chronic depression.

If I had known about it back then, and if it had been legal in my state, I would probably have used Salvia to induce a dream state for dream work.  I've tried it once in the past two years, and it seems to do quickly what self-hypnosis only does slowly and unreliably.

@epepke
I think this brings me back to the overall theme of getting at the root. Do you want to just stop feeling miserable or do you want to fully get over depression? Someone with chronic migraine problems isn't aspirin deficient. Aspirin, advil, tylenol, motrin, etc just alleviate pain. They don't even out hormonal imbalances or correct what is causing the headache.

With depression, not all of it simply chemical. Although, if it was completely chemical, anti-depressants and other drugs don't really correct the imbalance anyway. Much of it is psychological and thoughts need to be addressed. I suppose that if you have more tools to work with at your disposal, you are more likely to stumble upon something that works for you, but you are also more likely to use something that sets you back. You obviously did find things that worked for you and you did address discomforting and painful parts of the depression rather than just using drugs and know what you are talking about. I suppose every approach should be unique to the individual with depression, but I would not rule out ruling out alleviating pain with drugs for long periods of time. It's too risky if you ask me. I have seen some research that shows that when people use psychiatric drugs along with psychological counseling, improvement is more likely than when it's just one or the other or through some other means. Despite this study of work, one has to ask "exactly how are their conditions improving and how long-term are the results?"

But anyway, I would say that drugs should be either or both a very temporary thing and/or a last resort. Either use (non-addictive) drugs at the start for a short amount of time or use them after you've thrown the kitchen sink as well as the kitchen sink as well as the bath tub.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"@epepke
I think this brings me back to the overall theme of getting at the root. Do you want to just stop feeling miserable or do you want to fully get over depression? Someone with chronic migraine problems isn't aspirin deficient. Aspirin, advil, tylenol, motrin, etc just alleviate pain. They don't even out hormonal imbalances or correct what is causing the headache.

Hah! That's exactly the metaphor that I have used on many occasions.

QuoteWith depression, not all of it simply chemical.

I would say something stronger and that it isn't chemical at all, except in the relatively banal sense that everything that happens in the body is chemical in some sense.  So there are chemicals involved.

Still, I've adressed that, so it would help if you went back and read what I wrote.

Great. I must be so cliche and pathetically unoriginal.

Anyway, I have read every post you made on this topic and have been thoroughly impressed with you knowledge on this subject. It's just that the list you provided most recently comprised of ways to feel better while depressed rather than actually getting rid of it completely. I do not think that is something you advocate by any means though.

Yeah, with any though or concept, chemicals and chemical reactions are involved. But the actual meanings are not chemical. They are abstract and mean things beyond their chemical constructs. Anyway, a better way of putting it is that depression is not purely psychiatric, but much more psychological. Psychology is physiology combined with philosophy by definition. The philosophical parts are what need to be focused on but are often neglected in mainstream medicine.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"Psychology is physiology combined with philosophy by definition. The philosophical parts are what need to be focused on but are often neglected in mainstream medicine.

I'm quite certain that this just isn't true, anyway I don't see it in any definition of psychology that I've been able to find, but I'm looking forward to seeing any evidence you have that shows clearly and without a doubt that psychology is "physiology combined with philosophy."

Ok, here is some overview about the emergence of psychology that is fairly consistent with most schools of thought about psychology. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/brief-hi ... ology.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/brief-history-of-psychology.html)

The idea that psychology combines philosophy and physiology is fairly mainstream and conclusive in the field of psychology. It's they preface the subject in both psychology classes I have taken. Psychology as a study began with the ancient Greeks with the root word psyche meaning "soul", then Descartes, and blah blah blah. It, however differs from philosophy in the ways that it incorporates physiology.

If you would request more evidence, then go ahead. But beyond that, I would really prefer if we could stick to the topic at hand and the major issues presented instead of nitpick.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"Anyway, I have read every post you made on this topic and have been thoroughly impressed with you knowledge on this subject. It's just that the list you provided most recently comprised of ways to feel better while depressed rather than actually getting rid of it completely. I do not think that is something you advocate by any means though.

I did sort of outline the things that can be done.  It's kind of hard to go through all the possibilities in the space allotted, though.

If there is a main point I am trying to make it is that, yes, drugs can be useful, but they are useful mainly in helping to get the process started, because when someone is really depressed, the symptoms make it impossible even to try to do those other things.

Drugs aren't the only way.  I think I also mentioned getting laid.  Trouble is that it is difficult to get laid when one is depressed.  One such event, when I was 24, saved me from a suicidal depression, but I was fortunate.  A lesbian friend of mine arranged for me to get laid, and a series of coincidences, including a flight delayed for a day, made it possible.

QuoteYeah, with any though or concept, chemicals and chemical reactions are involved. But the actual meanings are not chemical. They are abstract and mean things beyond their chemical constructs. Anyway, a better way of putting it is that depression is not purely psychiatric, but much more psychological. Psychology is physiology combined with philosophy by definition. The philosophical parts are what need to be focused on but are often neglected in mainstream medicine.

This is an interesting problem, and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it with someone such as yourself who is aware of the nuances.  There are not a lot of people like that.

The problem, I think, is that there has been a big pendulum in psychiatry.  It swings from the purely psychological to the purely physiological.  Right now it's pointing to the purely physiological, the "medical model."  There are plenty of psychiatrists who prescribe drugs and do little else.  Within my lifetime, which is considerably longer than yours, it has also swung toward the purely psychological.  Neither approach seems to work well on its own, but when you combine the two, you get something.

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"Ok, here is some overview about the emergence of psychology that is fairly consistent with most schools of thought about psychology. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/brief-hi ... ology.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/brief-history-of-psychology.html)

Buzzle.com?

Quote from: "epepke"Drugs aren't the only way.  I think I also mentioned getting laid.  Trouble is that it is difficult to get laid when one is depressed.  

Hah! That's really funny, it really is. When a person is going through severe depression sex is the last thing on that person's mind. Okay, to be perfectly fair about this I can say that when I was going through my crisis sex was the last thing on my mind because nothing was on my mind, nothing that made any sense anyway.

Yes, when you're close to being completely out of your mind it is difficult to get laid, unless you're willing to pay for it.

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "Intercourseman72"Ok, here is some overview about the emergence of psychology that is fairly consistent with most schools of thought about psychology. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/brief-hi ... ology.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/brief-history-of-psychology.html)

Buzzle.com?

Yeah, I mean that sounds legit.  After all, he's had TWO whole classes in psychology.  

I was actually much more likely to get laid while I was depressed 1)because there are lots of depressed emoish girls in high school and 2) because while I was on zoloft, I couldn't even get sexually aroused.

@ i_am_i
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=The ... i=scholart (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=The+Emergence+of+Psychology:+Physiology+and+Philosophy&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart)

take your pick.

As someone that has suffered with depression on and off for probably 15 years, I've got just a couple of words of advice.  Read "Learned Optimism" by Dr. Seligman and seek therapy.  I never considered myself a pessimist until I took Stanford's Learned Optimism test.  It opened my eyes that my own worldview was getting in the way of my being happy, intimate, content and satisfied.  I've been in therapy for a year and that has also helped work through some of my "issues", but I think the $10 book was as valuable as the year of therapy.

Trying to get out from under depression is an ongoing process.  You won't just one day wake up and "be happy", but you can train your brain not to continually make you miserable!  My own ruminating was causing me to worry myself into a depression.  I still have a bad worry habit, but I now notice how awful it makes me feel and I am more able to control it.

Best wishes for your recovering from depression.

http://www.stanford.edu/class/msande271 ... edOpt.html (http://www.stanford.edu/class/msande271/onlinetools/LearnedOpt.html)

Is this the test you were talking about? Does it do ok for what is likely a cheap knock-off of the real test?

Quote from: "juliec0211"As someone that has suffered with depression on and off for probably 15 years, I've got just a couple of words of advice.  Read "Learned Optimism" by Dr. Seligman and seek therapy.  I never considered myself a pessimist until I took Stanford's Learned Optimism test.  It opened my eyes that my own worldview was getting in the way of my being happy, intimate, content and satisfied.  I've been in therapy for a year and that has also helped work through some of my "issues", but I think the $10 book was as valuable as the year of therapy.

That doesn't seem to be available for the Kindle.  I guess I'll look for it the next time I'm in a book store.

Quote from: "Cite134"Is it really a sickness as psychologists desrcibe it to be? I am not sure if I have been really suffering from it or not...but I have had many 'down' periods...especially this summer. My lack of social connection with people has been a heavy contribution to my pessimistic attitude and supposed depression, being an existential nihilist.

Forgive me if I get too personal, but I have had about 2 or 3 suicide attempts due to depression. I am afraid to let my family know of this condition because they are really religious. I am only 20 years old, and I am not sure what to do. There seems to be alot of older and wiser people on this forum...and I was wondering if I could get any advice. My mind is more scrambled than an egg, and I am not sure if it's due to my transition from a child to an adult, or a genuine state of depression . Can anyone help?

you can talk to me, i am here to help

If you need someone to talk to, I'm always around.  PM me and I'll give you my email.