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Speaking broadly here. Any 'alledged' prophecy that has been fufilled.

Well, after reading a prophecy you can write down whatever you want to fulfill it. There's nothing that suggests this isn't what was done with the Bible.

In the vast majority of cases, th "fulfillment" is not actually there. The details are wrong or the entire thing depends on reading into words what they do not say or the prophecy is so vague or general that it's just pointless.

The rest are coincidental (And the vast majority of those fall under the "general" cathegory)

Quote from: "xcyper33"Speaking broadly here. Any 'alledged' prophecy that has been fufilled.

Would you like to provide an example of a fulfilled prophecy please.

Quote from: "Tank"Would you like to provide an example of a fulfilled prophecy please.

That, by the way, was what I was saying in different words

Quote from: "Sophus"Well, after reading a prophecy you can write down whatever you want to fulfill it. There's nothing that suggests this isn't what was done with the Bible.

Quote from: "Asmodean"In the vast majority of cases, th "fulfillment" is not actually there. The details are wrong or the entire thing depends on reading into words what they do not say or the prophecy is so vague or general that it's just pointless.

The rest are coincidental (And the vast majority of those fall under the "general" cathegory)

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "xcyper33"Speaking broadly here. Any 'alledged' prophecy that has been fufilled.

Would you like to provide an example of a fulfilled prophecy please.

Exactly, without getting into specific examples, all the argument is going to come to are broad assertions: prophecies have been fulfilled vs. no they haven't.

We have to get down to the good stuff where the broad assertions come from; the good stuff being specific prophecies.

There's a lot to be said about the power of suggestion.  People will read what they want into an individual situation and claim that a prophecy has been fulfilled according to some written text when really, that's just their own interpretation of something that happened.

One example I can think of is the Bible's description of the coming of the Antichrist in Revelations as a political leader who will have great influence over the world and will do certain things.  Some people claim this prophecy is fulfilled in Obama, but it just as easily could describe a dozen other politicians (Hitler, anyone?).  People just want to see it that way because it gives them an excuse to use religion as fodder for hate and bigotry.

A very popular prophecy is about Israel being rebuilt again or something along those lines. Anyone know where I'm getting at?

Of course, the problem with the Israel one, is the fact that the prophecy itself can influence the behaviour of the people who have the power to fulfil it.

What is there to explain?

Quote from: "SSY"Of course, the problem with the Israel one, is the fact that the prophecy itself can influence the behaviour of the people who have the power to fulfil it.

All hail, Macbeth! hail to thee, Thane of Cawdor! All hail, Macbeth! that shalt be king hereafter.

QuoteOf course, the problem with the Israel one, is the fact that the prophecy itself can influence the behaviour of the people who have the power to fulfil it.

Wow...never looked at it that way.

Many prophesies are vague.  This applies to things like Nostradamus as well as the Bible.

So long ago I came up with the best prophesy of all time.

A great thing shall fall, and a small thing shall rise to greatness.
It shall happen in a year with one of those digits with round bits at the end.
Or maybe the year after.

I think that pretty much covers it.

Quote from: "SSY"Of course, the problem with the Israel one, is the fact that the prophecy itself can influence the behaviour of the people who have the power to fulfil it.

Another problem with the prophecy is that it happened long after the prophesied time frame... I'll look it up real quick.

Quote from: "Ezekiel 4:4-6"4) Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.

 5) For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

 6) And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

So they were kind of late on that, it was much longer than 430 years from Ezekiel to 1948.

The other one cited is:

Quote from: "Ezekiel 36:24,33-35"24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

 34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

 35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

One problem with this one is the missing verses that explained something that didn't happen:

Quote from: "Ezekiel 36:25-32"25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

 26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

 30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

 31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

 32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Being as they have suffered from some famines in the last 62 years, the prophecy had not been fulfilled... yet.

Of course there are other problems with prophecies so vague, is that people can keep putting the prophecy off until it is "fulfilled" because hey, it didn't say exactly when it would happen right? So maybe Israel will lose their kingdom once more and the next time they get it back is the actual event prophesied...

QuoteEzekiel 36:24,33-35 wrote:
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

This same passage is used by the Afrikaners in South Africa to claim that they are God's chosen people.  People from all over the world (well, actually only Holland and France (the huguenots, fleeing persecution in France)) came here.  Nevertheless, they see that as being taken from among the heathen, gathered out of all countries, and brought into their own land, SOuth Africa.  They also see the fact that after colonisation, South Africa was transformed into an almost industrialised nation by the 20th century (minor details like apartheid put aside for the moment) as fulfilment of a land that was once desolate that became like the garden of Eden.

This can of course also apply to other countries populated by immigrants, like all of the Americas and Australia and New Zealand.

The easiest way I know to make a prophecy come "true" is to write or tell the prophacy after the event. Think of it a plague of locusts comes through "well, you should have listened to me my god prophasied it. See look right here our god said it first and don't mind that wet ink." Or think of the priest Class from many coultures. They were the keepers of the seasons and the skys they had a good Knowledge of what would be in the sky where and when. Now you see that soon the the Moon will be in a direct line up between the Earth and the Sun. You can now plan for a ceremony, how did you know? "the gods told you". You could even make it seem as though you can make the sun disapear on your command if you wanted to inspire fear. I think P.T. Barrum said it best "there's a sucker born every minute", and the gullible are going to get tricked.


Not too hard to trick an ignorant, trusting and gullible mind. Especially when many religious people want to see these things and have no reason to doubt their 'mouth of god'.

The Texas Sharp Shooter Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy) is related to spotting prophecies that have been fulfilled.

Quote from: "Parsifal"

QuoteEzekiel 36:24,33-35 wrote:
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

This same passage is used by the Afrikaners in South Africa to claim that they are God's chosen people.  People from all over the world (well, actually only Holland and France (the huguenots, fleeing persecution in France)) came here.  Nevertheless, they see that as being taken from among the heathen, gathered out of all countries, and brought into their own land, SOuth Africa.  They also see the fact that after colonisation, South Africa was transformed into an almost industrialised nation by the 20th century (minor details like apartheid put aside for the moment) as fulfilment of a land that was once desolate that became like the garden of Eden.

This can of course also apply to other countries populated by immigrants, like all of the Americas and Australia and New Zealand.

It's good for them to skip the parts about no more famines isn't it? I guess reading all the verses in order is just taking it out of context...

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Parsifal"

QuoteEzekiel 36:24,33-35 wrote:
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

This same passage is used by the Afrikaners in South Africa to claim that they are God's chosen people.  People from all over the world (well, actually only Holland and France (the huguenots, fleeing persecution in France)) came here.  Nevertheless, they see that as being taken from among the heathen, gathered out of all countries, and brought into their own land, SOuth Africa.  They also see the fact that after colonisation, South Africa was transformed into an almost industrialised nation by the 20th century (minor details like apartheid put aside for the moment) as fulfilment of a land that was once desolate that became like the garden of Eden.

This can of course also apply to other countries populated by immigrants, like all of the Americas and Australia and New Zealand.

It's good for them to skip the parts about no more famines isn't it? I guess reading all the verses in order is just taking it out of context...

But that is religion for you.  If you don't pick and choose the bits you want, you will never be able to use the Bible as authority for anything.

Prophecy?

Saying, 2010, that the Cubs will win the world series in 2012, 2014, and the Mets in 2013, and Cleveland Indians in 2015 and it actually happening, spot on.  Yeah buddy that's a fulfilled prophecy.

Saying that there will be war, disease, famine, epidemics, earthquakes?

Not so much...

I use the following kind of example usually:

"On the twenty-first day of October, as the sun passes its zenith over West Nile, a rock from the sky shall come down and smash into a fisherman's hut, wiping out the entire village while at it."

This prophecy is NOT fulfilled if one or any combination of the following conditions are true:

a) It did NOT happen on the 21st by specified calendar. If no calendar is specified, it's the 21st by whatever the prophet used.
b) It did not happen in October, see a)
c) It did not happen within one hour of noon (West Nile time)
d) It was clearly not a rock (An aircraft, for instance)
e) It did not hit the hut
f) the hut did not belong to anyone who could be considered a fisherman
g) the willage was not wiped out (At least one house still standing)

Now, if all conditions set in the prophecy were true, it would be fulfilled. But then it would, in ways of prophecies, be pointlessly vague, self-fulfilling or read "between the lines" (Any prophecy formulated as a metaphor is useless)

How do theists explain continued faith after prophecies go unfulfilled?

Oh forget I asked, I really don't want to know.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"How do theists explain continued faith after prophecies go unfulfilled?

Oh forget I asked, I really don't want to know.

No, I'd like that question answered.

Quote from: "Parsifal"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"How do theists explain continued faith after prophecies go unfulfilled?

Oh forget I asked, I really don't want to know.

No, I'd like that question answered.

No I urge you to reconsider.
Believers will look at you with their stoner faces and explain how another layer has been laid on their wondrous system of faith.  
You will feel better if you don't know, believe me.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Parsifal"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"How do theists explain continued faith after prophecies go unfulfilled?

Oh forget I asked, I really don't want to know.

No, I'd like that question answered.

No I urge you to reconsider.
Believers will look at you with their stoner faces and explain how another layer has been laid on their wondrous system of faith.  
You will feel better if you don't know, believe me.

Hmmm, yeah, you're right.  But still, their contorted reasoning is always so comical.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"One example I can think of is the Bible's description of the coming of the Antichrist in Revelations as a political leader who will have great influence over the world and will do certain things.  Some people claim this prophecy is fulfilled in Obama, but it just as easily could describe a dozen other politicians (Hitler, anyone?).

Not only can it describe any number of world leaders, it has been used to describe any number of leaders with which religious clergy has disagreed.  I once read a book recommended by a local Seventh-Day Adventist church in Sacramento, Ca that said the antichrist was the Pope.  I've read another that claimed it to be C.T Russell (the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses) and any number of presidents of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society after him.  Jehovah's Wtinesses claim him to be anyone who supports secular governments over their brand of theocracy.  All in all, that particular prophecy can't be fulfilled, as it's too vague to be meaningful.  I'd even say that principle applies to all of Revelation.

Quote from: "Parsifal"

QuoteEzekiel 36:24,33-35

This same passage is used by the Afrikaners in South Africa to claim that they are God's chosen people.

They're not alone in that.  Every christian group I've ever met who were not integrated mainstream groups use the same scripture to make the same claim.

Quote from: "Parsifal"No, I'd like that question answered.

One reason is cognitive dissonance, I know wikipedia isn't the most trustworthy source, however this is like a review of a book (which is quiet good) and the references cited are good too, if you can get your hands on some of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Parsifal"No, I'd like that question answered.

One reason is cognitive dissonance, I know wikipedia is the most trustworthy source, however this is like a review of a book (which is quiet good) and the references cited are good too, if you can get your hands on some of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

The easiest and most common iteration of it is "we're just people".  It's funny, though, because before the prophecy fails, they're infallible due to the holy spirit's influence.  Theism relies on putting wheels on their goalposts, so they can be moved in a pinch.

If the bible had a passage in it which said:

On september the 11th, 2001, two American Airlines passenger jets will hit both the World Trade centre towers in New York, leading to their collapse and a third plane will be flown into the Pentagon. 3000 people will die at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

I'd totally give the bible credence if it said that. These so-called prophecies are deliberately vague for obvious reasons.

The problem with that is it's TOO specific and subject to self-fulfillment.  The prophecies about Jesus and later fulfillment of them would be evidence to me, providing that there were evidence for Jesus AND fulfillment of those prophecies outside of the bible.  As is, they're only evidence that the writers of the bible wanted to SAY that the prophecies were fulfilled.

But no matter how hard you try to effect the future you know is going to happen, your efforts to stop said future will eventually cause the calamity in the first place. If someone actually had the gift of future sight, they would know whatever they said wouldn't be able to effect the outcome, empowering them to stay forthright and honest in regaling their visions.

It was just an example though. They could equally proclaim the comet Schumaker Levy impact and its date - an event far outside the grasp of self fulfillment.

Quote from: "karadan"But no matter how hard you try to effect the future you know is going to happen, your efforts to stop said future will eventually cause the calamity in the first place.

This reminds me of a story.

Quote"The Appointment in Samarra"
(as retold by W. Somerset Maugham [1933])

The speaker is Death

There was a merchant in Bagdad who sent his servant to market to buy provisions and in a little while the servant came back, white and trembling, and said, Master, just now when I was in the marketplace I was jostled by a woman in the crowd and when I turned I saw it was Death that jostled me.  She looked at me and made a threatening gesture,  now, lend me your horse, and I will ride away from this city and avoid my fate.  I will go to Samarra and there Death will not find me.  The merchant lent him his horse, and the servant mounted it, and he dug his spurs in its flanks and as fast as the horse could gallop he went.  Then the merchant went down to the marketplace and he saw me standing in the crowd and he came to me and said, Why did you make a threating getsture to my servant when you saw him this morning?  That was not a threatening gesture, I said, it was only a start of surprise.  I was astonished to see him in Bagdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra.

Anyway, this is the opposite of what I was saying.  I can't be convinced of a prophecy that is well-known among people who wish it to come true, as they can simply engineer events to match it.  Were 9/11 predicted by the Bible in that much detail, I'd actually be MORE skeptical of whether it was actually done by Muslims (not trying to derail, so let's please not focus on conspiracy theory).  The fact is, when people in high places have that sort of agenda, that kind of stuff starts to happen.

I actually think it says more about the bible's inerrancy that the city ot Tyre is still standing.

Ezekiel 26:14 And I will make thee [Tyre] like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 26:17 And they [Merchants and Princes] shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, [that wast] inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror [to be] on all that haunt it!

Ezekiel 26:21 I will make thee a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

An aerial photo taken of Tyre copyrighted 2006
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsophismata.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F02%2Ftyre_today_satellite.jpg&hash=d47b9e524670a31c689b227c110e5b9fef488a5a)

(reposted from another forum, but I am the original author http://www.thinkingaloudforum.com/forum ... re#p524511 (http://www.thinkingaloudforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=14711&p=524511&hilit=tyre#p524511) )