Happy Atheist Forum

I was watching a video on consciousness and it was a roundtable discussion with Chalmers, Wolf, and a few others who have written about consciousness, and there is no consensus as to what consciousness is. The experts simply do not agree, which means no one really knows, and yet here it is making you, you and me, me. Not one of them mentioned paramecium, by the way.

I, myself, am having a big problem with it. Because to say it is a force with awareness, volition, memory, and the creative capability to form itself into matter is really just saying it's God. But the problems get even deeper with questions like, "What was God doing before the universe?"

It's actually not that important to know what he was doing as it is to fathom why he changed to create the universe. How could God desire anything? Even if he only desires to behold himself in his creation, then why create at one point and not another? And if it was necessary for him to create, that implies that something acts as a cause upon him--a motivator. Yet if in the beginning all there was was God staring at an eternal present moment, how could he ever be motivated from that spot to be or do anything differently?

But atheists aren't off the hook here, all these difficulties apply to them as well. Why was there a singularity? Why did it sit there for all eternity and suddenly bang at one moment and not the other? Assuming the singularity was a necessary first thing, why would it ever change?

We are confounded by paradoxes and contradictions no matter what theory we try to make about cosmology.

However, this has helped at least define for me what God is: God is consciousness (volition + memory + awareness + creative capability = God).

Perhaps God doesn't understand why he exists anymore than we do. He just woke up one day and found himself staring at eternity, and from there he began to dream. Perhaps the why of it is closed into the existence of it.

When I think of God staring at eternity, what would such a consciousness think of? It would have no past to form memories from. It would have no use for will and no desires at all for which it would use its creative capability. It would have no reason or cause for change, thus no universe--no big bang, no evolution.

If in the primordial state God had any desires, or memories, then we don't have God. We have a being that has been created. I can completely understand God staring at eternity. I think I could even model that mathematically and philosophically show how that is the necessary primordial state. But I can't get to the universe from there.

But all this doesn't make me an atheist. An atheist just gives up on these questions. The questions are still there for the atheist, however. They have just as big a problem with explaining creation as the theist does. All the problems I have with "God" they have with the primordial singularity.

When the atheist says the singularity just quantumly popped into existence and banged into a universe out of nothing, they might as well just say God did it and go back to church.

Atheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst and crucifies the intellect to make the questions easier to live with.

Atheism is abdication.

...So what exactly makes you think a god, namely whichever one or ones you happen to worship had anything to do with anything? What use does the Universe have for gods? Which holes do they fill that can not be filled by other means - perhaps without resorting to magic?

Quote from: "Asmodean"...So what exactly makes you think a god, namely whichever one or ones you happen to worship had anything to do with anything? What use does the Universe have for gods? Which holes do they fill that can not be filled by other means - perhaps without resorting to magic?

Did you even bother to read the post before you posted this knee-jerk atheist response? Go be an atheist. WTF difference does it make? At least be honest with yourself as to why you are an atheist: you need there to be no God--for whatever reason.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Asmodean"...So what exactly makes you think a god, namely whichever one or ones you happen to worship had anything to do with anything? What use does the Universe have for gods? Which holes do they fill that can not be filled by other means - perhaps without resorting to magic?

Did you even bother to read the post before you posted this knee-jerk atheist response? Go be an atheist. WTF difference does it make? At least be honest with yourself as to why you are an atheist: you need there to be no God--for whatever reason.

Whoa there buddy, slow your roll.  That's quite an assumption on your part about asmodean, or any other atheist for that matter.  

On the contrary, I struggled with my lack of belief for a long time.  I was raised Methodist.  I wanted to believe in God, and wanted to believe that we weren't alone and that someone was looking out for us.  Deeper examinations of the Bible and other religious texts and life experience just would not allow for that belief.  Aside from being happier as an atheist, I really don't live my life any differently than I did as a theist.  I try to be a good and honest person, to help others whenever I can, because I believe we owe it to our fellow humans to always be good to each other.  I did this as a Christian, too.  So really, I don't not need God to exist, and I'd be willing to bet no one else here does, either.

Edward, you sure do seem to have a great deal of time on your hands in which to ponder all this stuff you keep putting up here.

You also seem to have a great dislike for this imaginary well-organized group of people you call atheists.

Most of us have lives to live, we have to learn knowledge and skills and gain experience in our chosen fields in order to make money. I did all that by my own efforts. Everything I've achieved came from my effort, ingenuity and experience.

See, my life is great. It's filled with good books, good music, good food, I have a great wife and we live in a nice house. We've invested our money well. I can look back on a very interesting and somewhat unusual career as a musician, and I have a lot of stories to tell, many great memories. My plate is full, life is great.

So for someone to come up to me and insist that there's something supernatural that is missing in my life and expect me to give them one shred of credibility, well that person is either a scam artist or is highly delusional.

You need to go to college so you can pester the professors with all this flapdoodle instead of us.

I am more than happy to respond with "I don't know" to any singularity based questions (which by the way, is at this point a presumption, we have not got concrete evidence for before 10^-37 seconds, as far I know). Which puts me and you in similar positions, except that I have fewer entities to explain than you do.

We are both sure that the universe exists, the only thing I don't know is how/why it exists. You have the problems  of how/why your god exists, whether or not it even exists (severe lack of evidence), how/why it created the universe, all the characteristics of this god and all the continuing interactions it may or may not have with the universe. I have posited nothing that is not plainly obvious. You have posited something that just launches a dizzying array of questions. Your position is one that has far more holes than mine.

Edit, also, telling Asmodean what he needs is simply bad form.

No comment....

Edward the Theist, you have been around HAF more than long enough to understand that quite a bit of what you said in the OP is a strawman in regards to what atheists think/believe.  You have also been around HAF long enough to be well aware of the forum rules and your response to the first comment was uncivil and uncalled for even if the commenter didn't address what you felt was the main point of your OP.

For this reason I'm giving you a warning.

From what I have read it seems the atheist posters here are generally responding to your thoughtfully and civilly (I'm sure there have been exceptions as that happen sometimes but I haven't seen them)...no need for you to act like we are something to be attacked.

Please give us the explanation of where God came from so we can better discuss this topic.

If God doesn't need to be explained or have an origin, then why does the universe need one?  

I could see why pondering the possible causes for the universe existing is more interesting - because we can perceive the universe.  But if it must, must, absolutely must have a creator named Yahweh, then why does Yahweh not need a creator as well?  Why aren't you tied up in knots over who created Yahweh?  Why is God an exception to the rule?  Why does God not need a creator?  If your answer is something like "because the Bible tells us He has always existed" then surely you can see that's dogma, not reason?

If you answer to what created God is that God has always existed then why not cut out the middle man and just admit you don't know what created the universe or if it was created at all.

People have such an obsession with linear time.  What if time is not linear but is simply perceived as linear by human beings?  What if the future created the past which eventually became the future?  What if time is not linear at all?

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Please give us the explanation of where God came from so we can better discuss this topic.

If God doesn't need to be explained or have an origin, then why does the universe need one?  

I could see why pondering the possible causes for the universe existing is more interesting - because we can perceive the universe.  But if it must, must, absolutely must have a creator named Yahweh, then why does Yahweh not need a creator as well?  Why aren't you tied up in knots over who created Yahweh?  Why is God an exception to the rule?  Why does God not need a creator?  If your answer is something like "because the Bible tells us He has always existed" then surely you can see that's dogma, not reason?

If you answer to what created God is that God has always existed then why not cut out the middle man and just admit you don't know what created the universe or if it was created at all.

People have such an obsession with linear time.  What if time is not linear but is simply perceived as linear by human beings?  What if the future created the past which eventually became the future?  What if time is not linear at all?

Good points, all.  I find that time is probably not what the common man thinks it is, in many ways I think that time, such as defined by the common man, is nothing more than a man made construct.  IMHO

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"But atheists aren't off the hook here, all these difficulties apply to them as well. Why was there a singularity? Why did it sit there for all eternity and suddenly bang at one moment and not the other? Assuming the singularity was a necessary first thing, why would it ever change?

Which atheist says that?  No one knows what happened before Planck Time, and I doubt that we can ever know it.  That is the moment when the four forces "precipitated" and took effect.  Before that time, we would have no frame of reference.

Please quit erecting straw-men.

QuoteHowever, this has helped at least define for me what God is: God is consciousness (volition + memory + awareness + creative capability = God).

Perhaps God doesn't understand why he exists anymore than we do. He just woke up one day and found himself staring at eternity, and from there he began to dream. Perhaps the why of it is closed into the existence of it.

Perhaps god is a bored little boy, playing with his cosmic magnifying glass, burning us little ants.  Maybe god is a jock and we are parasites living off the bacteria (of sorts) which feed on his armpit sweat.  Maybe god is a blind turtle.

All of these are possible.  All of them -- and your hypothesis as well -- are eviscerated by Occam's Razor.  It is much more likely that these gods, and your god-thingy too, simply don't exist.

QuoteWhen I think of God staring at eternity ... <snip> .... Atheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst and crucifies the intellect to make the questions easier to live with.

Atheism is abdication.

Meaningless drivel.

Also, this is just a fancy version of the "atheism is a faith" argument, which is to say, nonsense.

When you present evidence for your claim that a god-thingy exists, I might take you seriously.  Please note, paramecia squirming under a 'scope aren't evidence for god.  Please, show me the data.  Show me the photos.  

You keep trying to talk god into existence, having forgot that reality doesn't take orders from men, no matter how sciencey or high-falutin' their words sound.

It's all rather amusing.

Ah..! So you want to play..? Well, let's play.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I was watching a video on consciousness and it was a roundtable discussion with Chalmers, Wolf, and a few others who have written about consciousness, and there is no consensus as to what consciousness is. The experts simply do not agree, which means no one really knows, and yet here it is making you, you and me, me. Not one of them mentioned paramecium, by the way.

Oh, they agree on some things and disagree on others. In perspective though, you can clearly define very few ways of looking at it. Of course, then you have to winnow out the actual experts from the wannabes and demagogues.

QuoteI, myself, am having a big problem with it. Because to say it is a force with awareness, volition, memory, and the creative capability to form itself into matter is really just saying it's God. But the problems get even deeper with questions like, "What was God doing before the universe?"

How does that amount to anything like god? Answer my first post.

QuoteIt's actually not that important to know what he was doing as it is to fathom why he changed to create the universe.

"He" did not. However, since you asked for it, answer the first post.

 

QuoteHow could God desire anything?

See above.

 

QuoteEven if he only desires to behold himself in his creation, then why create at one point and not another?

Indeed. Quite a waste of time, is it not..? Like me telling you yet again to answer the first post.

 

QuoteAnd if it was necessary for him to create, that implies that something acts as a cause upon him--a motivator. Yet if in the beginning all there was was God staring at an eternal present moment, how could he ever be motivated from that spot to be or do anything differently?

It's simple, really: There is no god. Thus, he was not.

QuoteBut atheists aren't off the hook here, all these difficulties apply to them as well. Why was there a singularity?

Plural: singularities. They are a product of gravity overcoming the internal forces keeping particles in shape. Since we don't really know what exactly they are (physical properties except for an immence weight compared to our own Sun and equally immence gravity - which has physicists somewhat puzzled over equasions ending up with infinities), our understanding of them is limited. As to WHY they are, because supernovas occur on occasion.


 

QuoteWhy did it sit there for all eternity and suddenly bang at one moment and not the other? Assuming the singularity was a necessary first thing, why would it ever change?

Hahah..! "It"? There is a singularity at the center of every black hole. Are you talking about some weird simplification of the Big Bang Theory..?

QuoteWe are confounded by paradoxes and contradictions no matter what theory we try to make about cosmology.

Paradoxes according to the physical laws as defined at this point, yes. There are not many clear contradictions in science though - they tend not to remain contradictory for long. Scientists, for the most part, practice evidence based examination of the world, not book club with a guy in ridiculous robes up front after all.

QuoteHowever, this has helped at least define for me what God is: God is consciousness (volition + memory + awareness + creative capability = God).

Why bother calling it god? We have a word for it.

QuotePerhaps God doesn't understand why he exists anymore than we do. He just woke up one day and found himself staring at eternity, and from there he began to dream. Perhaps the why of it is closed into the existence of it.

Perhaps Hades does not understand why you think YOUR god does any more than I do. And... Why do you assume he was sleeping..? And how do you know it was one "day" rather than in the middle of a timeless void within some weird concept of circular time? /end trollfood

QuoteWhen I think of God staring at eternity, what would such a consciousness think of? It would have no past to form memories from. It would have no use for will and no desires at all for which it would use its creative capability. It would have no reason or cause for change, thus no universe--no big bang, no evolution.

Again, my first comment. Why do you presume to shove a god-entity down the unsuspecting Universe's throat?

QuoteIf in the primordial state God had any desires, or memories, then we don't have God.

That last part there, after the second comma... That's progress right there. Again though, you assume that "time before time" was as linear as we define it. An assumption you have no grounds for making.

QuoteWe have a being that has been created. I can completely understand God staring at eternity. I think I could even model that mathematically and philosophically show how that is the necessary primordial state. But I can't get to the universe from there.

You can mathematically emonstrate god..? Please do. I'll be more than happy to poke at your equasions.

QuoteBut all this doesn't make me an atheist. An atheist just gives up on these questions.

No, I just don't see the point in pulling explanations out of my ass until oh, say... My first post is addressed...

QuoteThe questions are still there for the atheist, however. They have just as big a problem with explaining creation as the theist does. All the problems I have with "God" they have with the primordial singularity.

No. We do not have a problem saying "I don't know" where that answer is appropriate.

QuoteWhen the atheist says the singularity just quantumly popped into existence and banged into a universe out of nothing, they might as well just say God did it and go back to church.

Who says that..? A twelve year old? "Quantumly popped into existence" ... Oh whatever, suppose we simplify to such a degree for some uneducated specimens of the ape family, still, how does that in any way amount to a belief into something for which no evidence is presented, with no reason within reason (If you pardon the wordplay) to believe in it beyond silly superstitions and archaic traditions?

QuoteAtheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst and crucifies the intellect to make the questions easier to live with.

HAHAH! Atheism, my dear, is the lack of a believe in gods. You are calling a shovel an excavator.

QuoteAtheism is abdication.

Faith is the substitution of reason for an archaic and unintelligent hive mentality.

Now, I believe I've referenced where my first comment to this thread comes from. Answer it.

Edward,

Your worldview seems to give you comfort, perhaps that is the reason you adhere to it.  If you keep trying to prove god's existence, you might not like what you don't find.  Your god is personal.  Why try to convince a bunch of atheists of its existence?  From what I read, you aren't promising salvation.

I'm serious-- ask yourself: "Why am I trying to convince others that my god exists?"

Oh by the way, I'm an atheist because of all the weird and unprovable concepts, gods fall into the more useless cathegory. I don't NEED there to be no god - in fact, I don't give a flying duck. I'd probably be just as fascinated by proof that gods exist as I am by the Big Bang Theory, however, as gods have no holes to fill in my knowledge which are not already filled with much more honest "I don't know", I don't need them. Why wear an adhesive bandage on uninjured skin?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"But atheists aren't off the hook here, all these difficulties apply to them as well. Why was there a singularity? Why did it sit there for all eternity and suddenly bang at one moment and not the other? Assuming the singularity was a necessary first thing, why would it ever change?
Who said the singularity sat there for eternity?

We are confounded by paradoxes and contradictions no matter what theory we try to make about cosmology.

I disagree. Things which previous seemed intuitively like contradictions have ended up being easily explainable. There are plenty of questions about the universe for which the only current answer is "I don't know", but that hardly indicates there are no answers to be found. Will we ever know everything? I have no idea. Our knowledge will continue to grow, though.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"However, this has helped at least define for me what God is: God is consciousness (volition + memory + awareness + creative capability = God).

You just said above you don't know what consciousness is and now you're defining it, and as "God", no less? That's a mighty contradiction.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Atheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst and crucifies the intellect to make the questions easier to live with.

Atheism is abdication.

Not at all. Atheism is the honest response to available evidence. No pretense, no ego, no assumptions. It's simply null hypothesis. Null hypothesis cannot be abdication, as abdication implies action. Atheism is remaining unconvinced, which means no positive action of any kind.

Why is God always a dude?

QuoteHowever, this has helped at least define for me what God is: God is consciousness (volition + memory + awareness + creative capability = God).

Perhaps God doesn't understand why he exists anymore than we do. He just woke up one day and found himself staring at eternity, and from there he began to dream. Perhaps the why of it is closed into the existence of it.

So God is the very essence of consciousness yet he isn't even aware of his own inception or the meaning of his existence? How can that attain to anything godly? With this reasoning, why not just call ourselves gods and call it a day? After all I have consciousness, memory, awareness and creative capability.  

Quote from: "Will"Atheism is the honest response to available evidence. No pretense, no ego, no assumptions. It's simply null hypothesis. Null hypothesis cannot be abdication, as abdication implies action. Atheism is remaining unconvinced, which means no positive action of any kind.

Interesting and I generally agree with the sentiment, but I don't agree that atheism involves no positive action. Every one of of us grew up with the idea of God and some of us thought about that idea a lot more than others did and that's positive action. I think that acting on curiosity, trying to learn more and freeing one's self from blind belief is positive action.

Now here's our Edward who very much seems to be struggling with his (g)od and his personal God. They're not the same, he has told us. He tells us that (g)od is consciousness. Capital G God is his personal God. Two different things.

Have you ever seen a donkey ride? The poor donkey has to walk in a circle around and around and around. Edward is like that poor donkey. All he sees is the ground directly before him, ground that he's walked over time and time again.

Bust out of that circle, Edward. You seem to have enough native curiosity to actually put to good use.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Atheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst

Does it?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"and crucifies the intellect to make the questions easier to live with.
Atheism is abdication.

I think atheism frees the intellect from following long dead weirdos.
If you insist on answering questions, when there are no factual answers available, you end up with bullshit.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I was watching a video on consciousness and it was a roundtable discussion with Chalmers, Wolf, and a few others who have written about consciousness, and there is no consensus as to what consciousness is. The experts simply do not agree, which means no one really knows, and yet here it is making you, you and me, me. Not one of them mentioned paramecium, by the way.

I, myself, am having a big problem with it. Because to say it is a force with awareness, volition, memory, and the creative capability to form itself into matter is really just saying it's God. But the problems get even deeper with questions like, "What was God doing before the universe?"

It's actually not that important to know what he was doing as it is to fathom why he changed to create the universe. How could God desire anything? Even if he only desires to behold himself in his creation, then why create at one point and not another? And if it was necessary for him to create, that implies that something acts as a cause upon him--a motivator. Yet if in the beginning all there was was God staring at an eternal present moment, how could he ever be motivated from that spot to be or do anything differently?

But atheists aren't off the hook here, all these difficulties apply to them as well. Why was there a singularity? Why did it sit there for all eternity and suddenly bang at one moment and not the other? Assuming the singularity was a necessary first thing, why would it ever change?

We are confounded by paradoxes and contradictions no matter what theory we try to make about cosmology.

However, this has helped at least define for me what God is: God is consciousness (volition + memory + awareness + creative capability = God).

Perhaps God doesn't understand why he exists anymore than we do. He just woke up one day and found himself staring at eternity, and from there he began to dream. Perhaps the why of it is closed into the existence of it.

When I think of God staring at eternity, what would such a consciousness think of? It would have no past to form memories from. It would have no use for will and no desires at all for which it would use its creative capability. It would have no reason or cause for change, thus no universe--no big bang, no evolution.

If in the primordial state God had any desires, or memories, then we don't have God. We have a being that has been created. I can completely understand God staring at eternity. I think I could even model that mathematically and philosophically show how that is the necessary primordial state. But I can't get to the universe from there.

But all this doesn't make me an atheist. An atheist just gives up on these questions. The questions are still there for the atheist, however. They have just as big a problem with explaining creation as the theist does. All the problems I have with "God" they have with the primordial singularity.

When the atheist says the singularity just quantumly popped into existence and banged into a universe out of nothing, they might as well just say God did it and go back to church.

Atheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst and crucifies the intellect to make the questions easier to live with.

Atheism is abdication.

Brain barf.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Atheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst

Does it?

No.  The statement made by EtT couldn't be more wrong.  Existential angst arises precisely because there is no God.  Denying God does nothing to improve on this anxiety.  Angst arises because when we realize there is no God, we realize that we alone are ultimately and wholly responsible for our actions-we have no one to blame for our failures other than ourselves, and no one to pray to to fix it.  In turn, we are also responsible for making our success and creating our destiny.  Angst also arises when we are faced with making difficult decisions.  Sartre claims that the decision we chose for ourselves is the decision we chose for all others in the same situation.  When we realize we are responsible for creating ethics and morality, this also causes angst/anxiety.  Essentially, our total freedom is what causes anxiety.  If anything, the atheist is more prone to existential angst than the believer, because the atheist is responsible for him or herself in a way believers generally don't believe they have to be.

I'm guessing you were probably asking that as a rhetorical question, MP, so that response was more for the benefit of the OP, who obviously is a little confused on what existential angst actually is.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Atheism is simply a denial that resolves existential angst

Does it?

I'm guessing you were probably asking that as a rhetorical question, MP, so that response was more for the benefit of the OP, who obviously is a little confused on what existential angst actually is.

QuoteIn Australian politics, a Dorothy Dixer is a question asked of a government Minister by a backbencher of his/her own political party during Parliamentary Question Time.

The term is used in a mildly derogatory sense to describe a 'planted' question. Often, the question has been written by the Minister or his/her staff rather than by the questioner, and is used to give the Minister a chance to promote themselves or the work of the Government, or to criticise the opposition party's policies

Just call me Dorothy.

Now I want to know why it's called a Dorothy Dixer.  

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Now I want to know why it's called a Dorothy Dixer.  

QuoteThe term references American advice columnist Dorothy Dix's reputed practice of making up her own questions to allow her to publish more interesting answers. "Dorothy Dixer" has been used in Australian politics since the 1950s, and has become increasingly common in everyday usage. However, its origin is unclear; the term is virtually unknown in other countries where Dix's column was equally popular.

Hope that helps cobber.

It does, thank you.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"I try to be a good and honest person, to help others whenever I can, because I believe we owe it to our fellow humans to always be good to each other.  I did this as a Christian, too.  So really, I don't not need God to exist, and I'd be willing to bet no one else here does, either.

You sound like a much better person than I am. I frequently am not honest. I really don't try to help others whenever I can, and I don't feel I owe anything to anyone else, except not to hurt them. I certainly can't always be good. I'm glad you were able to accomplish all of this as a Christian, because I never could. Even now, I can't; that's the truth.

I find it better to be truthful with myself than to be good. For if I lie to myself about how good I am, I risk narcissism. I believe in God, so for that reason, I can look in the mirror and be honest with myself. I don't have to be good. God appears to be on my side anyway. Or at least that's how I see His actions in my life.

Quote from: "i_am_i"Edward, you sure do seem to have a great deal of time on your hands in which to ponder all this stuff you keep putting up here.

I have a very fast mind.

QuoteYou also seem to have a great dislike for this imaginary well-organized group of people you call atheists.

I hate atheism. Yes. I don't hate atheists; actually I prefer atheists to the religious people I know. But I hate atheism with a rather extreme passion. Thank God it's all imaginary. Perhaps I'll wake up one day and it will all be gone.

QuoteMost of us have lives to live, we have to learn knowledge and skills and gain experience in our chosen fields in order to make money. I did all that by my own efforts. Everything I've achieved came from my effort, ingenuity and experience.

Not me. Mine all came by the grace of God.

QuoteSee, my life is great. It's filled with good books, good music, good food, I have a great wife and we live in a nice house. We've invested our money well. I can look back on a very interesting and somewhat unusual career as a musician, and I have a lot of stories to tell, many great memories. My plate is full, life is great.

Great. You know I wrote a book about happiness, but that was ten years ago. I wish I would have included a chapter on how to stay happy once you get there. It would have suggested that a person not think too deeply about things. For instance, a man or woman who can truly enjoy watching sports on television and laugh at the commercials that come on in between, is truly happier than one who can't. A person who can live life and not think about the "why" of life is much, much happier. Quite often, I am deeply unhappy. That's the truth.

QuoteSo for someone to come up to me and insist that there's something supernatural that is missing in my life and expect me to give them one shred of credibility, well that person is either a scam artist or is highly delusional.

That's the best way for you to think, if you want to stay happy in your life. You know, the knowledge of God doesn't bring any happiness at all, I don't think. All it brings is the knowledge that you are separated from Him in this life--at least to some degree. So, to know God is to risk great unhappiness. You can truly live happier as an atheist.

QuoteYou need to go to college so you can pester the professors with all this flapdoodle instead of us.

Yeah, that's what I need: more college. Well, that and a professor I can pester with all this flapdoodle philosophy. (Try saying that ten times fast!)

Quote from: "parrotpirate"Brain barf.

 

Quote from: "SSY"I am more than happy to respond with "I don't know" to any singularity based questions (which by the way, is at this point a presumption, we have not got concrete evidence for before 10^-37 seconds, as far I know). Which puts me and you in similar positions, except that I have fewer entities to explain than you do.

That's atheism!

QuoteWe are both sure that the universe exists, the only thing I don't know is how/why it exists. You have the problems  of how/why your god exists, whether or not it even exists (severe lack of evidence), how/why it created the universe, all the characteristics of this god and all the continuing interactions it may or may not have with the universe. I have posited nothing that is not plainly obvious. You have posited something that just launches a dizzying array of questions. Your position is one that has far more holes than mine.

My position is one that has far more holes than yours because my position has far more questions than yours. But I think I've come to a conclusion. I think I have taken the question of God as far as I logically can from my perspective.

From my perspective, I have come to see God as a primordial conscious force that perceives only eternity. This concept of God has a major flaw. It equals nothing in its effect. This primordial (g)od has no memories of anything, has no desires for anything, has no motivation to change, and no direction in which to change if it wanted to. It never would have created the universe. It exists without any cause, because it exists eternally, but it can't change from that.

And by the way, the big revelation here is that atheism has the same problem. Take away God and you still have the same problem, only you have it with the singularity. So, today, I am somewhat happy, because today I have transcended atheism and theism. They both are fu..ed.

Quote from: "Whitney"Edward the Theist, you have been around HAF more than long enough to understand that quite a bit of what you said in the OP is a strawman in regards to what atheists think/believe.  You have also been around HAF long enough to be well aware of the forum rules and your response to the first comment was uncivil and uncalled for even if the commenter didn't address what you felt was the main point of your OP.

For this reason I'm giving you a warning.

From what I have read it seems the atheist posters here are generally responding to your thoughtfully and civilly (I'm sure there have been exceptions as that happen sometimes but I haven't seen them)...no need for you to act like we are something to be attacked.

Thank you, Whitney.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Please give us the explanation of where God came from so we can better discuss this topic.

I think you have to be God to answer that one.

QuoteIf God doesn't need to be explained or have an origin, then why does the universe need one?

For atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

QuoteI could see why pondering the possible causes for the universe existing is more interesting - because we can perceive the universe.  But if it must, must, absolutely must have a creator named Yahweh, then why does Yahweh not need a creator as well?  Why aren't you tied up in knots over who created Yahweh?  Why is God an exception to the rule?  Why does God not need a creator?  If your answer is something like "because the Bible tells us He has always existed" then surely you can see that's dogma, not reason?

The furthest possible understanding we can reach without being God is that God would have to exist in an eternal state of being. "Eternal" simply means no past, no future, only the present. And, in fact, this is not such a hard concept to grasp. We live in eternity, too. Or at least our consciousness does. You know as well as I do that the past doesn't exist anymore, and the future hasn't happened yet, so...eternity.

Or you can go in the backdoor with the cosmological argument: For anything to exist, it must be caused by something prior to it. However, if there was an infinite regress of prior causes, nothing would ever get caused. So, there has to be a first cause that was not caused by anything else. We call that first cause God.

QuoteIf you answer to what created God is that God has always existed then why not cut out the middle man and just admit you don't know what created the universe or if it was created at all.

Well, I know it was created, because it is here...near as I can tell. Before the theory of the big bang, we knew philosophically that the universe could not have always existed. Most people don't hold that the universe is infinitely lage, which it would have to be if it had always existed. Otherwise there would be an outside to the universe and that's absurd. But if the universe were infinite, the whole night sky would be filled with light from an infinite amount of stars, otherwise you have to explain why there aren't an infinite amount of stars and that's just as hard as explaining how the universe came into existence to begin with.

I know God created the universe; I just don't know what God is. My previous conception of God has hit a glass ceiling. And I've come to the conclusion that I'm not using the right kind of mind to answer the question. And I don't know if I can get the right kind of mind.

QuotePeople have such an obsession with linear time.  What if time is not linear but is simply perceived as linear by human beings?  What if the future created the past which eventually became the future?  What if time is not linear at all?

You mean, what if time is a continuous loop?

Quote from: "hismikeness"

Quote from: "parrotpirate"Brain barf.

 

@hismikeness & parrotpirate

How does what parrotpirate wrote followed by your jocular endorsement square with the forum's Mission Statement?

Quote from: "HAF Mission Statement"At HAF we know that atheists are often happy ethical people just like anyone else. It is our goal to help dissolve negative stereotypes currently held towards atheists and facilitate productive dialogue with those of differing viewpoints.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Atheism is abdication.

Meaningless drivel.

QED I think.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "SSY"I am more than happy to respond with "I don't know" to any singularity based questions (which by the way, is at this point a presumption, we have not got concrete evidence for before 10^-37 seconds, as far I know). Which puts me and you in similar positions, except that I have fewer entities to explain than you do.

That's atheism!

QuoteWe are both sure that the universe exists, the only thing I don't know is how/why it exists. You have the problems  of how/why your god exists, whether or not it even exists (severe lack of evidence), how/why it created the universe, all the characteristics of this god and all the continuing interactions it may or may not have with the universe. I have posited nothing that is not plainly obvious. You have posited something that just launches a dizzying array of questions. Your position is one that has far more holes than mine.

My position is one that has far more holes than yours because my position has far more questions than yours. But I think I've come to a conclusion. I think I have taken the question of God as far as I logically can from my perspective.

From my perspective, I have come to see God as a primordial conscious force that perceives only eternity. This concept of God has a major flaw. It equals nothing in its effect. This primordial (g)od has no memories of anything, has no desires for anything, has no motivation to change, and no direction in which to change if it wanted to. It never would have created the universe. It exists without any cause, because it exists eternally, but it can't change from that.

And by the way, the big revelation here is that atheism has the same problem. Take away God and you still have the same problem, only you have it with the singularity. So, today, I am somewhat happy, because today I have transcended atheism and theism. They both are fu..ed.

I think you have missed my point quite spectacularly. You seem content to frame atheism as a similar thought process to theism, which I am afraid, is simply not the case. Atheism leaves certain questions unanswered, but the point is, not having an answer is better than inventing one with no evidence, and then expounding centuries of rationalisations to try and prop up a shoddy belief system. All this stuff about your god, you provide no evidence to suggest this is the case, it's simply your own flights of fancy.

As I said before, atheism does not have the same problem as theism (well, one of the same problems, theism is positively riddled with holes and inconsistencies), because it posits nothing, and so, it is not required to explain anything. Explaining the origin of the universe is not in the realm of atheism, it is merely a question (among many) that atheism does not pretend to answer.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Edward,

Your worldview seems to give you comfort, perhaps that is the reason you adhere to it.

I'm sorry, did you say "comfort?" Do you see a lot of comfort in my OP? Cuz I'm just not feeling it. :bananacolor:

QuoteFor atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Not true. I require real explanations, not any hypothetical explanation that pops into my head. And as Kylyssa already pointed out, you don't require an explanation for God or his inception.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Atheists aren't satanic or evil. They're people. But they are people who have abdicated spiritual growth,

Please define "spiritual growth", so we can say for ourselves whether we "abdicate" it.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"to giving up belief in God.

Since you've obviously defined atheists as those who gave up believing in gods, what would that make a creatur like me, who never did?

On the whole though, you display a very religious-minded understanding of atheists. You assume left and right that people are - at the core - like you. They are not. And in the question of religion, they are pretty much like us, since everyone is born an atheist and indoctrinated otherwise.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Sorry, to offend you, but atheism is just bullshit. Pure and simple. It is abdication. It is avoidance of the discomfort I'm currently going through. That's it.

I've transcended theism and atheism at this point. They both have the same problem. So, I'm off a cliff into a black void. I don't know what I'm going to find.

Atheists aren't satanic or evil. They're people. But they are people who have abdicated spiritual growth, and therefore they unwittingly become the medium of atheism.

You say you question things but all I see in your posts is an attempt to convince yourself that what you want to believe is true.  That is very different than testing your actual belief.  

The large atheists religions of the world, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Jainism as well as the atheistic religions of Hinduism, Samkhya and Mimasa are ones of peace.  The moral codes are in some cases superior to those you profess.  Buddhism for example has a precept against killing any sentient being while your code just command that you not murder.  The moral code of Ahimsa in Jainism, Buddhism, and atheistic Hinduism is one of the most demanding codes of conduct and spiritual investigation that has ever been proposed.  Living and practicing one of these atheistic paths results in spiritual growth you say is lacking in atheism. If you are serious about spiritual exploration you should explore these religions/philosophies that get along just fine without a creation story or creator god.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Edward,

Your worldview seems to give you comfort, perhaps that is the reason you adhere to it.

I'm sorry, did you say "comfort?" Do you see a lot of comfort in my OP? Cuz I'm just not feeling it. :bananacolor:

If I may be so bold: the discomfort you feel may be your faith waning.  You try to convince others as a way to convince yourself.  You are in this limbo because of your inquisitive mind.  Faith, not science, is what you seem to need.

You seem to be taking the agnostic approach to god. The true agnostic (imo) can't really be a theist.  Agnosticism is about following the evidence, not creating it.  It requires that we not make conclusions not supported by facts.  No matter how close you come to God with your admittedly interesting theories, you will still have to make a leap of faith to get to it. In your heart of hearts, you know that you haven't proven god's existence.  At best you've shown yourself that god may exist.

Reread your post.  You are displaying a burning desire to make something more out of existence than just the physical.  Is it possible that your reason is clouded?  Sometimes we see what we want to see.  A scientist has to have some sort of objectivity.  She has to allow for the possibility that her initial hypothesis may be flawed.  You seem unwilling to do that. You seem like you are going to keep searching until you find god.  You could save yourself a lot of time and trouble by just having faith.
 

Just my two cents.

Quote from: "Sophus"

QuoteFor atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Not true. I require real explanations, not any hypothetical explanation that pops into my head. And as Kylyssa already pointed out, you don't require an explanation for God or his inception.

Okay, first, God would not have an inception; if he did he wouldn't be God. So, you can say God doesn't exist and we can debate the right or wrong of that, but to go on about the creation of God is...what's a polite word...unenlightened.

Quote from: "notself"You say you question things but all I see in your posts is an attempt to convince yourself that what you want to believe is true.  That is very different than testing your actual belief.  

The large atheists religions of the world, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Jainism as well as the atheistic religions of Hinduism, Samkhya and Mimasa are ones of peace.

What planet are you freakin living on? The last Chinese restaurant I went to, behind the counter was a little statue of Buddha with incense burning and peices of fruit sacraficed before it. And in my entire life, I have never met an atheistic Hindu, and I work with them all the time.

QuoteThe moral codes are in some cases superior to those you profess.

I hope so, since I haven't professed one moral code since I've been in this forum.

QuoteBuddhism for example has a precept against killing any sentient being while your code just command that you not murder.

What's a sentient being? Why shouldn't we kill them? And what's my code? I'm a Veridican, we only have two tenets: God is monistic and the human purpose is to be Christ. That's it.

QuoteThe moral code of Ahimsa in Jainism, Buddhism, and atheistic Hinduism is one of the most demanding codes of conduct and spiritual investigation that has ever been proposed.  Living and practicing one of these atheistic paths results in spiritual growth you say is lacking in atheism.

I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

QuoteIf you are serious about spiritual exploration you should explore these religions/philosophies that get along just fine without a creation story or creator god.

Uh...thanks. I'll take that under advisement.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth. Just because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name has effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

Edit is > has

Well said, Tank.

Well said indeed.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "notself"You say you question things but all I see in your posts is an attempt to convince yourself that what you want to believe is true.  That is very different than testing your actual belief.  

The large atheists religions of the world, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Jainism as well as the atheistic religions of Hinduism, Samkhya and Mimasa are ones of peace.

What planet are you freakin living on? The last Chinese restaurant I went to, behind the counter was a little statue of Buddha with incense burning and peices of fruit sacraficed before it. And in my entire life, I have never met an atheistic Hindu, and I work with them all the time.
I never said all of Hinduism, which is a word referencing many religions, is atheistic.  I specifically named two which were.

That statue is not of the Buddha.  It is a statue of a folk lore deity called Hotai who carries a sack full of wealth.  The wealth can be toys for children, money for businessmen, or children for the childless.  As I said before, Asians mix beliefs from various systems.

QuoteThe moral codes are in some cases superior to those you profess.

I hope so, since I haven't professed one moral code since I've been in this forum.
Below you say that you human purpose is to be Christ.  Are you saying that is not a moral code?

QuoteBuddhism for example has a precept against killing any sentient being while your code just command that you not murder.

What's a sentient being? Why shouldn't we kill them? And what's my code? I'm a Veridican, we only have two tenets: God is monistic and the human purpose is to be Christ. That's it.
Killing hardens the heart and mind of the killer.  Killing diminishes empathy and compassion.

QuoteThe moral code of Ahimsa in Jainism, Buddhism, and atheistic Hinduism is one of the most demanding codes of conduct and spiritual investigation that has ever been proposed.  Living and practicing one of these atheistic paths results in spiritual growth you say is lacking in atheism.

I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism? I am saying there is spiritual growth in atheistic philosophies.

QuoteIf you are serious about spiritual exploration you should explore these religions/philosophies that get along just fine without a creation story or creator god.

Uh...thanks. I'll take that under advisement.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"If I may be so bold: the discomfort you feel may be your faith waning.

Faith in what? God? I've never doubted God exists. Honestly, I'm not capable of it. But faith in my previous theory, yeah, I mean, it's helped me to contemplate it, but ultimately I am wrong. God can't be what I described previously.

Previously, I hypothesized that prior to the universe, God was consciousness intersecting eternity. But if that were the case, he would be a consciousness with no memory, no desires, and no motivation to change. Thus, the universe would never have been made. The universe is here, so that can't be an accurate description of God.

What I'm thinking now is that in order to understand God, we may have to be Christ (I define Christ as God conscious of Himself from within His creation). I don't think we can actually see God unless we are Christ. I don't think our contingent mind can do it. I think the best we can do is end up with a blank consciousness staring at eternity.

QuoteYou try to convince others as a way to convince yourself.  You are in this limbo because of your inquisitive mind.  Faith, not science, is what you seem to need.

I'm not exactly sure how you meant that, but you might be absolutely correct. In the end, for living human beings, faith may be the only way to end up seeing God. And don't discount faith. Most of the science you believe you take on faith. In fact, almost everything we think we know is really faith. It even takes faith to say there is no God.

QuoteYou seem to be taking the agnostic approach to god. The true agnostic (imo) can't really be a theist.  Agnosticism is about following the evidence, not creating it.  It requires that we not make conclusions not supported by facts.  No matter how close you come to God with your admittedly interesting theories, you will still have to make a leap of faith to get to it. In your heart of hearts, you know that you haven't proven god's existence.  At best you've shown yourself that god may exist.

I agree with you there. I don't even have to go to my heart of hearts. I have not proven God exists, plain and simple. After 17 years of trying, I don't think it's possible to prove in the normal sense of the word. Like consciousness, we can only prove it to ourselves. We can never prove it to anyone else. Like precognition; I know what happened to me, but I can't prove that to you. Like the paramecium: though they display will and the capacity to learn, I have yet to see anyone call them conscious but me. But so what? None of that proves God exists.

What is God? He is a monistic conscious entity and from his substance the entire universe is made. That is not the same kind of thing as you and I. We may be of His substance, but I think we are a different order of existence. I think we are like His dream characters. Which means, unless we become Christ, unless we become whatever the heck Jesus was, we aren't going to understand Him.

But as for there being no God. If I exist, He must exist.

QuoteReread your post.  You are displaying a burning desire to make something more out of existence than just the physical.  Is it possible that your reason is clouded?  Sometimes we see what we want to see.  A scientist has to have some sort of objectivity.  She has to allow for the possibility that her initial hypothesis may be flawed.  You seem unwilling to do that. You seem like you are going to keep searching until you find god.  You could save yourself a lot of time and trouble by just having faith.

I think you're right. What does Paul say about faith? "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

What is interesting about my theory though is that it takes you right to the edge. If you take all the classical arguments for the existence of God, they all lead to a God that is nothing like Christians imagine (most Christians don't know that). They take you to the same place I ended up, a place before the physical universe where God is simply conscious in eternity, but that God cannot create anything. And yet here I am, and here you are. There has never been a creation like you or me in the history of the universe. We are utterly unique. When we die, what we were becomes extinct, never to be created again. So the God of the arguments can't really be God. The real God takes a different kind of mind to see.

I'm thinking now that faith creates that mind.

Did you ever see the movie, AI? In it, David, the little robot boy, finds the Blue Fairy, a symbol for God, and for eons can never approach it, because he's trapped in that vehicle. Finally, when he is able, it crumbles before him. That's where I'm at right now.

The God I have approached with my natural, rational, logical mind does not exist. That was an idol. The Father I pray to in my journals, the one who's been with me since I was a child, the one Jesus talks about, I am only going to approach in this life through faith.

But remember, you have the same problem as an atheist. Because all you can do is abdicate before the questions of the universe and its origin. All you can do is the opposite of faith, which is to turn away and not ask any hard questions. All that does is turn a human being into an animal.

Now why would any human being want to return to the level of an animal?

I think the answer to that is sum total of atheism.

Your "theory" is not an actual theory. It's a weak hypothesis at best. I'd call it musings or speculations, really, but my bar may be somewhat high for some.

Quote from: "Tank"I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth.

You guys are so absolutely full of shit it's beyond me. "We're not a religion; We're not! Of course, we come together in a community; we solicit donations, we have a code of conduct for our...ahem...community, and we have a form of spiritual growth.

But if you say we believe there is no God, you don't understand us. If you say we're a religion, you don't understand us. We don't know how consciousness works or how the universe began so we simply deny both, but if you say we're fundamentalist, you don't understand us.

Is this some kind of joke? Do you really take yourself seriously?

 

QuoteJust because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name is effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

 

Quote from: "Asmodean"Your "theory" is not an actual theory. It's a weak hypothesis at best. I'd call it musings or speculations, really, but my bar may be somewhat high for some.

Fine. Hypothesis.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "hismikeness"

Quote from: "parrotpirate"Brain barf.

 :D or   . Is that acceptable and within the confines of the mission statement?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

Quote from: "Tank"I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth. Just because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name is effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

Respectfully, the understood meaning of the word "spiritual" entails somethings non physical.  

Do you believe in a non physical spiritual self?

If not, could you elaborate on your meaning of the word "spiritual".  

Edit: I came back to clean up the quotes.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Asmodean"Your "theory" is not an actual theory. It's a weak hypothesis at best. I'd call it musings or speculations, really, but my bar may be somewhat high for some.

Fine. Hypothesis.

Thank you. Theory is a much abused word and, even though it means little in a personal case, if enough people regard something which is not as a valid theory, well, that amounts to mold on the shine of science.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"B. Atheism will destroy civilization if it gains any real power. I want to stop it. Oh, I know, all the bad in the name of religion. Well, religion built the world, too. Atheism will send us back to the trees. Atheism is a hatred for humanity. It is, by that definition, Satanic. It is evil.

Hatred of humanity?  I've dedicated my life to helping homeless people get off the street, not just by token service at soup kitchens at Christmas but by taking 17 homeless teens into my home to live as well as working in soup kitchens, shelters, literacy programs, job training programs and more  - that demonstrates a hatred of humanity?  Want to know my reason for doing such things?  I do it because I know that only people can help people.  If people don't help, no one will and people will suffer when we could have done something.

I do find it refreshing you say we hate humanity because most Christians we encounter claim we worship humanity.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Atheists aren't satanic or evil. They're people. But they are people who have abdicated spiritual growth, and therefore they unwittingly become the medium of atheism.

Again, because I'll probably be banned for what I just said, so let me make the record clear before I am: Atheists are people. I don't hate atheists. I hate atheism. Anyone reading this who can't make that distinction, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. If I get banned from here, I'll go to another forum, or to a blog (s), and I'll start using my blog more.

The bottom line is, atheism must be stopped at all costs.

I'm sure people would rather you were honest.  I'm being dead serious.  You have no idea how refreshing it is for a Christian to admit they hate atheism rather than to pretend that they don't.  The unfortunate thing is that there will be a stumbling block to having any intelligent discussions - you've made up your mind about us already and you are unwilling to listen to what we have to say.  You accuse us of deciding not to grow spiritually but you've decided not to grow intellectually.  You will hear no information from us other than through a filter that says it's all lies.  C'mon, we've read the Bible, if you think we worship Satan, you probably think we emulate him.

It's also refreshing to hear you honestly say you'd stop at nothing to destroy atheism.  We can now work with the knowledge that you don't feel bound by law or by the social contract.  

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"The Church has failed to stop it. In fact, it creates more atheists now than it does believers.

Have you ever wondered why that might be?  Your House of God is filthy and corrupt.  It's killing innocents, it's actively harming people.  I'm not talking about the Crusades or the Inquisition or anything else that happened hundreds of years ago, I'm talking about what is happening in the world today.  So many decent people are turning away from the filth and corruption.  Maybe they should be trying to fix their church instead of fleeing the evil Christianity has come to represent to them, I don't know.

Why not spread Christianity by cleaning your own house?  No one wants to buy a filthy house with rats, termites, cockroaches and religious violence in it.  No one will buy that house, especially when the main advertisement says "buy it or be tortured for eternity."  Try stopping the atrocities being committed right now in the name of Christianity and maybe people will turn to Christianity if it becomes a clean and kindly religion.

Who is going to want to buy into a religion that is supporting the murder of homosexuals in Uganda, torturing and murdering children in Africa through exorcism, promoting the spread of AIDS in Africa, supporting "corrective rape" of lesbians in South Africa, and turning it's head from the approximately 400,000 children discarded by American Christians each year?  Who wants a religion whose only currency is hatred, harm and threats?

I'd suggest you start with the kids discarded or abused for religious reasons.  You could probably do the most to stop this problem as I doubt you could, individually, do much about the assorted Christianity related problems in Africa.  It would be more practical to start on abuses in the Americas and Europe.  I think that if you really put your mind to it, you could change some minds to make it unacceptable to beat, neglect, emotionally abuse, or eject from the home a child who does not conform to Christian standards.  If you convinced a few people, maybe they'd convince a few more and the movement for Christians withdraw support for and to actively disapprove of Christians who abuse, neglect or eject their children might spread enough to save lives.

Another reason to start with that particular abuse is because so many Christians are already against it but just don't know it's happening.  Also, you'd stand a better chance of retaining those children as church members.  Many kids I helped turned on Christianity because they saw it as the reason they were subjected to horrors.  And before you say it, no, I didn't turn them against Christianity, I took those who wanted it to church and kept my absence of religion a secret.

I don't expect a response from you because I now believe that I cannot actually communicate with you, due to your statements.  You seem to be here simply to extract bits to proselytize with.  But it's my hope (yes, hope) that you'll read and understand the last several paragraphs and get out of your cerebral bubble and feel something.  It is also my hope that you'll do something about it.  It is a bit uncomfortable to my pride to ask you to but lives are more important than pride.

I am a jackass and my comment makes no sense.  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "hismikeness"

Quote from: "parrotpirate"Brain barf.

 :D or   . Is that acceptable and within the confines of the mission statement?

Fair point. I withdraw my comment about 'jocular endorsement' as one can laugh at something whether or not one agrees with it.

Apologies.
Chris

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"The God I have approached with my natural, rational, logical mind does not exist. That was an idol. The Father I pray to in my journals, the one who's been with me since I was a child, the one Jesus talks about, I am only going to approach in this life through faith.

But remember, you have the same problem as an atheist. Because all you can do is abdicate before the questions of the universe and its origin. All you can do is the opposite of faith, which is to turn away and not ask any hard questions. All that does is turn a human being into an animal.

Now why would any human being want to return to the level of an animal?

I think the answer to that is sum total of atheism.

The atheist has no problems except the bigotry of a largely theist world.   You use of the word "abdicate" is puzzling.  Is it your assertion that every person is supposed to figure out the origin of the universe?  If you take atheists to be a religion, our "shamans and priests" are actually trying to figure it out.  The vast majority of people at the forefront of trying to figure out the origin of the universe are atheist scientists.  You ask the "hard questions" because you have an inquisitive mind, not because you are theist.  It's the theists who bury their heads in a single book written hundreds of years ago and think that it contains all of the answers--or that they can sit and simply ponder the "hard questions".   If it was so easy to know, we'd already know it.  One has to roll up her sleeves and get dirty to figure this stuff out.   Most of us don't have time to do that, it doesn't mean we are "abdicating" anything.  

 Btw, humans are animals, we are just the smartest ones on this planet.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

Quote from: "Tank"I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth. Just because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name is effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

Respectfully, the understood meaning of the word "spiritual" entails somethings non physical.  

Do you believe in a non physical spiritual self?

If not, could you elaborate on your meaning of the word "spiritual".  

Edit: I came back to clean up the quotes.

Atheist spirituality could well be considered an oxymoron  

I read this book and it changed my view on the subject http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Atheist-Sp ... 059306139X (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Atheist-Spirituality-Andre-Comte-Sponville/dp/059306139X)

One does get into a semantic argument as the historic use of the word spiritual has had 'extra bodily' implications. I'm not a philosopher but the gist of the book is that the feeling of 'spirituality' is simply the same as 'love' or 'hate' in that it's just a feeling that one has under particular circumstances and as such is just as valid in the physical world as the non-physical world.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"For atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Once again,  not true.  I've already explained once why atheists still suffer existential angst, and I know you read that post because you commented on it.  Giving up God only gives us the freedom to take responsibility for our own lives-it does not excuse us from having to think critically before we make decisions.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I thought my God was personal. I thought that's how it was. But I don't think so anymore. I thought (g)od was a force, and we psychologically invented a "God" to channel that force. But that can't be true. Nor can it be true that there is no God. Sorry, to offend you, but atheism is just bullshit. Pure and simple. It is abdication. It is avoidance of the discomfort I'm currently going through. That's it.

You've already admitted you were mistaken once.  How can you be so sure you aren't mistaken again?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"B. Atheism will destroy civilization if it gains any real power. I want to stop it. Oh, I know, all the bad in the name of religion. Well, religion built the world, too. Atheism will send us back to the trees. Atheism is a hatred for humanity. It is, by that definition, Satanic. It is evil.

No.  I love humanity, and that's part of the reason why I am an atheist.  I love humanity and I respect it, because I believe thisl ife is all we are given.  There are no guarantees that anything comes after this, and so we owe it to ourselves and to each other to always be kind to each other and to make the best of the time we have been given.  I really wish you'd stop making assertions about atheism as if you somehow know us better than we know ourselves.  You don't.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"But as for there being no God. If I exist, He must exist.

Again, wrong.  Perhaps you could benefit some from reading David Hume.  I'd recommend you start with An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding.  The statement you've made here is pretty similar to one of the Cartesian arguments that has been disproved time and time again.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"You guys are so absolutely full of shit it's beyond me. "We're not a religion; We're not! Of course, we come together in a community; we solicit donations, we have a code of conduct for our...ahem...community, and we have a form of spiritual growth.

But if you say we believe there is no God, you don't understand us. If you say we're a religion, you don't understand us. We don't know how consciousness works or how the universe began so we simply deny both, but if you say we're fundamentalist, you don't understand us.

Is this some kind of joke? Do you really take yourself seriously?

Now you just sound like an angry child.  Because you can't comprehend it, than it can't possibly be?  Get over yourself.  You aren't an atheist-stop pretending you know how real atheists think and behave.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Sophus"

QuoteFor atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Not true. I require real explanations, not any hypothetical explanation that pops into my head. And as Kylyssa already pointed out, you don't require an explanation for God or his inception.

Okay, first, God would not have an inception; if he did he wouldn't be God. So, you can say God doesn't exist and we can debate the right or wrong of that, but to go on about the creation of God is...what's a polite word...unenlightened.

I'm aware that this is the common meme in our culture, however, not all gods are without inception (see Greek Mythology). A freer theistic thinker is able to question the inception of god and whether or not he/she/it has one. Although at the most all you can say is "I don't know." It's amazing that people do not only know that he/she/it exists but can tell you ever detail of his/her/its life and being. :raised:  That is incredibly closed minded. I do not think my existence disproved god.

QuoteB. Atheism will destroy civilization if it gains any real power. I want to stop it. Oh, I know, all the bad in the name of religion. Well, religion built the world, too. Atheism will send us back to the trees. Atheism is a hatred for humanity. It is, by that definition, Satanic. It is evil.

You are a fruitcake.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I hate atheism. Yes. I don't hate atheists; actually I prefer atheists to the religious people I know. But I hate atheism with a rather extreme passion. Thank God it's all imaginary. Perhaps I'll wake up one day and it will all be gone.

Bias spotted, in this thread.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I hate atheism. Yes. I don't hate atheists; actually I prefer atheists to the religious people I know. But I hate atheism with a rather extreme passion. Thank God it's all imaginary. Perhaps I'll wake up one day and it will all be gone.

Bias spotted, in this thread.

I'd say so. Edward, I don't know of anyone here who hates theism. Many of us are upset with the atrocities it can be capable of, but theists get along just fine here. I certainly don't "hate" their metaphysics.

Edward the Theist,

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=78957#p78957 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=78957#p78957) .

Again, preaching is against the rules and so is being uncivil...you have done both in this post as well as at least one other in this thread...next warning is one week ban.

I'll also point out that if I see you even slightly imply the use of weapons (ie praise god and pass the amunition right after talking about atheism being evil) again that I'll ban you on the spot...that's not cool.

I think he's a rather harmless lunatic two months off his meds... But an armada of those could cause some serious trouble, when between them they achieve an IQ of ye old regular jew  

Sorry, this post is extraneous. Read the next one.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Whitney"
Edward the Theist,

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=78957#p78957 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=78957#p78957) .

Again, preaching is against the rules and so is being uncivil...you have done both in this post as well as at least one other in this thread...next warning is one week ban.

I'll also point out that if I see you even slightly imply the use of weapons (ie praise god and pass the amunition right after talking about atheism being evil) again that I'll ban you on the spot...that's not cool.

You know, you let people call me names in this post and in others, and just like other atheist forums, when I defend myself, you only apply the rules to me. I'm sorry you feel threatened by my presence in here to the point that you have to become a hypocrite, but you can ban me now if you like. You say I'm preaching. When, how? That must be the catchall term you use to look like you have a legitimate reason for banning theists. :facepalm2:

And you have a problem with me calling atheism evil? The problem is that atheists won't look at the implications of their own beliefs. I looked at the implications of mine and came to the conclusion that they were wrong, and so I have changed how I believed. Atheists are incapable of doing that, so you all don't see the evil that atheism will bring to the world, and not just to the religious, but to yourselves as well. To yourselves mostly. Why?

Because the religious will fight or naturally die off. By the time the horrors of atheism begin to spread through civilization, religion will have already gone away. You think atheists are just as moral as anyone else, but that's only because you live in a system created and maintained by religious morality at this time. When that is gone, well, consider one of the final prophecies of Jesus Christ when some women were weeping as he was being led to Calvary. He said, "Don't weep for me; weep for yourselves. For if they will do this when the grass is green, what will they do when it is dry?"

Is that preaching? And why are you so afraid of preaching, anyway? Is it because you know atheism leaves a really big hole in a person's mind and heart? Are you afraid that some of your members might actually come to miss what they've thrown away?

Do you really think your threat of banning me somehow threatens me? I already have offers from two other atheist forums, by members in this forum, that want me to join them based on what they've read in my posts.

Ban that.  

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"The problem is that atheists won't look at the implications of their own beliefs. I looked at the implications of mine and came to the conclusion that they were wrong, and so I have changed how I believed. Atheists are incapable of doing that, so you all don't see the evil that atheism will bring to the world, and not just to the religious, but to yourselves as well. To yourselves mostly.

Please describe this evil that atheism will bring to the world.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Whitney"
Edward the Theist,

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=78957#p78957 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=78957#p78957) .

Again, preaching is against the rules and so is being uncivil...you have done both in this post as well as at least one other in this thread...next warning is one week ban.

I'll also point out that if I see you even slightly imply the use of weapons (ie praise god and pass the amunition right after talking about atheism being evil) again that I'll ban you on the spot...that's not cool.

And you have a problem with me calling atheism evil? The problem is that atheists won't look at the implications of their own beliefs. I looked at the implications of mine and came to the conclusion that they were wrong, and so I have changed how I believed. Atheists are incapable of doing that, so you all don't see the evil that atheism will bring to the world, and not just to the religious, but to yourselves as well. To yourselves mostly. Why?

Generalizing an entire group of people as being "evil" for not believing in a god or your god is, to put it mildly, fruity. And intolerant. Members here have tried to correct your ugly stereotypes of atheism but you continue to assert them over and over again like a broken record. If you end up being banned that will have made it at least the second forum you've been banned from, no? Perhaps you should consider if the way you've been acting is really uncivil and trollish.

On the bright side, Tank, consider yourself vindicated!

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I don't expect a response from you because I now believe that I cannot actually communicate with you, due to your statements.  

Great. You won't get one then.  

Quote from: "humblesmurph"The atheist has no problems except the bigotry of a largely theist world.   You use of the word "abdicate" is puzzling.  Is it your assertion that every person is supposed to figure out the origin of the universe?  If you take atheists to be a religion, our "shamans and priests" are actually trying to figure it out.  The vast majority of people at the forefront of trying to figure out the origin of the universe are atheist scientists.  You ask the "hard questions" because you have an inquisitive mind, not because you are theist.  It's the theists who bury their heads in a single book written hundreds of years ago and think that it contains all of the answers--or that they can sit and simply ponder the "hard questions".   If it was so easy to know, we'd already know it.  One has to roll up her sleeves and get dirty to figure this stuff out.   Most of us don't have time to do that, it doesn't mean we are "abdicating" anything.  

 Btw, humans are animals, we are just the smartest ones on this planet.

You completely prove my point. You let others do your thinking for you and then follow them, because that's the easy thing to do. That's abdication. And yes, the human animal is an animal, but look at how you word it. Your use of the word "just" equates us with the cockroach. Now, I have nothing against cockroaches, but I do feel superior to them. Apparently, you don't. But if atheism is true, why should you?

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"The problem is that atheists won't look at the implications of their own beliefs. I looked at the implications of mine and came to the conclusion that they were wrong, and so I have changed how I believed. Atheists are incapable of doing that, so you all don't see the evil that atheism will bring to the world, and not just to the religious, but to yourselves as well. To yourselves mostly.

Please describe this evil that atheism will bring to the world.

To quote George Orwell, Imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever.

That's atheism. Even in this day and age when atheism is just a growing minority, we see that when human beings are de-humanized all manner of atrocity can occur. Just ask the aborted late-term fetuses. Human beings, as war shows, are capable of dehumanizing their enemies, first mentally, then acting on that notion that "The only good Gook is a dead Gook, The only good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi, the only good German is a dead German." What then will be the case when every human being considers every other human being to be no more than a dirt clod with epiphenomenal consciousness?

I realize you can point out the atrocities caused by religious differences, but it has also been religion that has built the world. Religion at least has a balancing morality inherent in it. Atheism has no morality. Right now, you share the morality of the religious society you live in, but when that is gone, there will be no constraints.

I'm not advocating the Christian Church as it is. A reform in Christianity is needed. But to dispose of Christianity is insane.

Quote from: "Tank"I read this book and it changed my view on the subject http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Atheist-Sp ... 059306139X (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Atheist-Spirituality-Andre-Comte-Sponville/dp/059306139X)

One does get into a semantic argument as the historic use of the word spiritual has had 'extra bodily' implications. I'm not a philosopher but the gist of the book is that the feeling of 'spirituality' is simply the same as 'love' or 'hate' in that it's just a feeling that one has under particular circumstances and as such is just as valid in the physical world as the non-physical world.

Now there's a book I better read, and it's on Kindle.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"The problem is that atheists won't look at the implications of their own beliefs. I looked at the implications of mine and came to the conclusion that they were wrong, and so I have changed how I believed. Atheists are incapable of doing that, so you all don't see the evil that atheism will bring to the world, and not just to the religious, but to yourselves as well. To yourselves mostly.

Please describe this evil that atheism will bring to the world.

To quote George Orwell, Imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever.

That's atheism.

How is atheism a boot stomping on a human face? How do you work that out?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"The atheist has no problems except the bigotry of a largely theist world.   You use of the word "abdicate" is puzzling.  Is it your assertion that every person is supposed to figure out the origin of the universe?  If you take atheists to be a religion, our "shamans and priests" are actually trying to figure it out.  The vast majority of people at the forefront of trying to figure out the origin of the universe are atheist scientists.  You ask the "hard questions" because you have an inquisitive mind, not because you are theist.  It's the theists who bury their heads in a single book written hundreds of years ago and think that it contains all of the answers--or that they can sit and simply ponder the "hard questions".   If it was so easy to know, we'd already know it.  One has to roll up her sleeves and get dirty to figure this stuff out.   Most of us don't have time to do that, it doesn't mean we are "abdicating" anything.  

 Btw, humans are animals, we are just the smartest ones on this planet.

You completely prove my point. You let others do your thinking for you and then follow them, because that's the easy thing to do. That's abdication. And yes, the human animal is an animal, but look at how you word it. Your use of the word "just" equates us with the cockroach. Now, I have nothing against cockroaches, but I do feel superior to them. Apparently, you don't. But if atheism is true, why should you?

Your point may be meaningless.  Setting aside your obvious misinterpretation of my post, I have to ask, what would you have me do?  Join your two person cult?

By your definition, everybody is abdicating except you and the one other person who believes what you do.  Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and Atheists all reject your theories.  Why are you singling out atheism for attack?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"To quote George Orwell, Imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever.

So what?  George Orwell is wrong.  BFD.

QuoteThat's atheism.

No, that's you taking a phrase of his out of context:

Quote from: "George Orwell"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever

Nowhere in the passage, taken from 1984, does he mention this as a result of atheism; this comment arises, clearly, from the surrounding content, as a result of a technocratic dictatorial socialism.  In other words, you're not right, and you don't even realize it.

QuoteEven in this day and age when atheism is just a growing minority, we see that when human beings are de-humanized all manner of atrocity can occur. Just ask the aborted late-term fetuses. Human beings, as war shows, are capable of dehumanizing their enemies, first mentally, then acting on that notion that "The only good Gook is a dead Gook, The only good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi, the only good German is a dead German." What then will be the case when every human being considers every other human being to be no more than a dirt clod with epiphenomenal consciousness?

You're right.  No soldier in the history of the world was brainwashed religiously.  

QuoteI realize you can point out the atrocities caused by religious differences, but it has also been religion that has built the world.

No.  The world coalesced by the action of gravity.

If you're talking about civilization, perhaps you might have a point, in the beginning.  But just as you no longer need a walker to get around because you're not 18 months old any more, man no longer needs religion, because he has lit some of the dark and discovered how to light more and more.

QuoteReligion at least has a balancing morality inherent in it.

Insofar as a religion declares some forms of thinking thoughtcrime, I'd say that it is immoral inherently.  Morals are the evolutionary products of intelligent social animals -- and not just humans, as you'd learn if you actually bothered to challenge your convictions.  Also, given that the vast majority of the world's people are immoral to one degree or another, and have been for millenia, how do you reconcile that with the fact that the vast majority of them, at the same time, have been religious?

QuoteAtheism has no morality. Right now, you share the morality of the religious society you live in, but when that is gone, there will be no constraints.

Atheism is commentary about god(s), not morality.

QuoteI'm not advocating the Christian Church as it is. A reform in Christianity is needed. But to dispose of Christianity is insane.

Not half as crazy as believing paramecia have consciousness, based on a peep through a scope.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Implying weapons. What a joke. I was imitating a redneck fundamentalist, and you know it.

How is anyone supposed to be able to tell when you are being sarcastic or imitating something in jest when the majority of your posts have become crazy rants about atheism being evil and destroying humanity?  No, no one here knows what you're imitating and what you're serious about.  Acting as though the difference between a genuine yet crazy comment versus an imitation crazy comment ought to be obvious is short sighted on your part.  

If you honestly want to participate here, why not just cut your losses for obviously having lost your cool in this thread and start fresh with a new topic?  As it is, it seems like you're just trying to get banned for some kind of weird personal vindication.

Can this thread be about Kitten Mittons now?

[youtube:2lnhpif1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCaTpFwcC9o[/youtube:2lnhpif1]

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Can this thread be about Kitten Mittons now?

[youtube:3pfui4oy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCaTpFwcC9o[/youtube:3pfui4oy]

   that's funny every time.  PETA gonna get on Sunny for that scene though.

@ Pinko:

Did you look at his blog?  He did seem sort of proud about it.

Oddly, when I visited, there hadn't been one reply to his post about HAF, and how he expected to be banned.

It's funny, this electronic martyrdom.  Kinda makes ole Saint Stephen look a bit quaint.

No, I didn't check out his blog, but I'm not at all surprised.  One thing I've noticed - the more someone claims to be 'not your average theist' online, the more they tend to act like a stereotypical online theist.  

So yeah - kitten mittens.  Because the only solution for a cat in your wall is shoving more cats in your wall.  And maybe a bird on a string.  Come to think of it, I bet PETA does hate It's Always Sunny...

Quote from: "pinkocommie"No, I didn't check out his blog

I don't see wht any one would want to   Well, there is a small measure of personal amusement to be had there, meguess...

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I don't expect a response from you because I now believe that I cannot actually communicate with you, due to your statements.  

Great. You won't get one then.  

Exactly as I suspected.  You are the sort who likes to sit around and whine about the evils of atheism (without defining them) while accepting the evils within your own belief system (and, by not protesting those evils, you are supporting them) which help to propagate atheism.  You support atrocities perpetrated by your religion by remaining silent about them and try to direct the attention away from the atrocities you support by silence by squealing like a little girl with a worm in her shorts about the unnamed evils of atheism.  

So you are likely far less morally upright than the majority of the followers of Christ, we get it.  You'd break any law, hurt anyone you feel like - all if it would help you kill off atheism.  

Here's a question for you - if you could kill off every atheist in the world and you are assured that no more atheists would ever exist, you wouldn't get into trouble, and you wouldn't kill or harm anyone but atheists with the act, would you do it?  Also, the act wouldn't take any effort for you to accomplish (you seem to be all talk and no action so we wouldn't want to tax you), all you'd have to do is come to a decision and state it aloud.  The atheists wouldn't leave any stinky bodies lying around to cause disease and their friends and family members wouldn't remember that they had ever existed.  And for the sake of the question we'll pretend that all babies are conceived believing in Jesus so you wouldn't kill any babies.   So, would you do it?

Ah, shoot!  I missed the part about Ed getting identified as a Christian troll or a Poe.  I've suspected he might be an extremely sophisticated Poe.  It seems hard to believe that the persona he has created here accurately represents a human being.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"No, I didn't check out his blog

I don't see wht any one would want to   Well, there is a small measure of personal amusement to be had there, meguess...

I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, no matter their beliefs.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, no matter their beliefs.

As do I. I do, however, judge people by the way they act.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I don't expect a response from you because I now believe that I cannot actually communicate with you, due to your statements.  

Great. You won't get one then.  lol

Quote from: "i_am_i"How is atheism a boot stomping on a human face? How do you work that out?

There is a morality in the world that basically stems from Christianity. The modern world is the Western World, we are Christian, and everyone follows our lead. The Christian idea, though it be preverted a million times over in every church everywhere, holds that there is a God who demands moral behavior from us, and all people ultimately face a judgment in the end, whether or not they are Kings, dictators, presidents, or the lowest alcoholic bum in the gutter.

And, yes, atheists follow that same morality and even brag about how they are better at it than Christians, but that doesn't matter because it all stems from the notion that Christ is perfection and we should be like Him. You don't have to like it; you don't have to believe it; but anyone who's lived a day in their life knows it's the way things are.

Remove that foundation, and to quote Sgt Foley from "An Officer and a Gentleman" you will have to rely on my generosity, my love of humanity, to stop me from killing you. And yet where will that generosity and humanity come from when it finally sinks in that we are dirt clods and our consciousness is an illusion, and absolutely no one has a purpose in life that's ordained any higher than their own desires.

You believe in the genetic goodness of mankind, but that doesn't exist. We are all, to a person, cruddy selfish assholes. Take away the Chrisitian foundation--take away all the little churches along the side of the road you see everywhere here in the South--and we will eat each other.

Society will fail. Social contracts will fail. We will have to go back to the forest and live in the trees, just like all the other animals.

Atheism is a belief that stems from an utter hatred of humanity. It must be stopped at all costs.

So, I'm going to start posting daily articles on my blog. I have decided not to hold anything back. I don't know how long I will live; any of us could die any day, but I will be held to account on judgment day for what I did or did not do to combat atheism. If I don't use all of my IQ, all of my energy, all of my creativity to stop it, then I will have failed God, because that's what he gave all that to me for.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, no matter their beliefs.

As do I. I do, however, judge people by the way they act.

Yes, and I was responding to his first posts.  Like, before he stopped the Thorazine.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Your point may be meaningless.  Setting aside your obvious misinterpretation of my post, I have to ask, what would you have me do?  Join your two person cult?

By your definition, everybody is abdicating except you and the one other person who believes what you do.  Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and Atheists all reject your theories.  Why are you singling out atheism for attack?

Yeah, even I have rejected my theory. It doesn't work. It was based on a limited understanding of God. I went as far as I could with it, but in the end, as we discussed already, one has to take a leap of faith.

My two-person cult is not open for membership. You can't be a Veridican. You can only be you. Why? Because there is no organization. Veridicanism has two tenets: God is monistic in nature and the human purpose is to be Christ. So, what do I want you to do? Become Christ. How? Now that you're an atheist read two Gospels: the Gospel of John, and any other one you want, even the Gospel of Thomas if you want. But when you read, consider Jesus as your higher self, and consider all the disciples to be aspects of your current personality. Then you will begin to see that the Gospel was written by you, for you, at this moment in history.

The only interpretation then that matters is yours, not the Church's, not your past Sunday school teacher's, not your parents', not your big sister's--you are the expert. What you say it means is what it means.

That's what I would have you do.

If you got rid of churches, maybe Christians would "eat" each other, but some of us know right from wrong without needing some book or religion to tell us it is so.  If you're only behaving yourself because you fear punishment from God or believe you have to be like Christ and that's the only thing holding you back from being a liar, cheat, and thief, well than yeah, you are an atrocious person.  Goodness in a person should not be contingent on belief in God, and if it is, than that person was never good to begin with.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"There is a morality in the world that basically stems from Christianity. The modern world is the Western World, we are Christian, and everyone follows our lead. The Christian idea, though it be preverted a million times over in every church everywhere, holds that there is a God who demands moral behavior from us, and all people ultimately face a judgment in the end, whether or not they are Kings, dictators, presidents, or the lowest alcoholic bum in the gutter.

Is/Ought fallacy happening here.  Also, I thought you said you didn't worship the Christian god, or, at the very least, you were a different sort of theist.  Hey, what's the penalty again for false witness?

QuoteAnd, yes, atheists follow that same morality and even brag about how they are better at it than Christians, but that doesn't matter because it all stems from the notion that Christ is perfection and we should be like Him. You don't have to like it; you don't have to believe it; but anyone who's lived a day in their life knows it's the way things are.

I reject much of Christ's "morality."  For instance, if you should smite my cheek, you'd ought not expect passivity on my part, if you get my drift.  Also, I think this thing about loving him more than my family is horseshit.

QuoteRemove that foundation, and to quote Sgt Foley from "An Officer and a Gentleman" you will have to rely on my generosity, my love of humanity, to stop me from killing you.

Not so.  We rely on the social contract.  This self-proclaimed "philosopher" needs to read some more Locke, apparently.

QuoteAnd yet where will that generosity and humanity come from when it finally sinks in that we are dirt clods and our consciousness is an illusion, and absolutely no one has a purpose in life that's ordained any higher than their own desires.

See above.  You can go back to pulling the fries out of the grease, someone else has answered this question.

QuoteYou believe in the genetic goodness of mankind, but that doesn't exist. We are all, to a person, cruddy selfish assholes.

Speak for yourself.  I've met good and bad people, and have been both good and bad myself.  To quote Solzhenitsyn:  "The line between good and evil runs down the middle of every man's heart."  We are all equally capable of great good, and mordant evil.

 

QuoteTake away the Chrisitian foundation--take away all the little churches along the side of the road you see everywhere here in the South--and we will eat each other.

Well, I'm not a vegan, but I'm not a cannibal either, so this seems like an extravagant excluded-middle fallacy here.

QuoteSociety will fail. Social contracts will fail. We will have to go back to the forest and live in the trees, just like all the other animals.

And yet it's the atheists who are nihilists, right?  Su-u-u-u-re.  What a hypocrite.

QuoteAtheism is a belief that stems from an utter hatred of humanity. It must be stopped at all costs.

Your projection is showing.  It is, after all, your Christianity which describes Original Sin, which claims us to be nothing but dust in the wind, which inflicts upon us the disease of self-hatred.  It is Christianity which stigmatizes us by sex, by sexuality, by race, and, worst of all, by our very thoughts.

QuoteSo, I'm going to start posting daily articles on my blog. I have decided not to hold anything back. I don't know how long I will live; any of us could die any day, but I will be held to account on judgment day for what I did or did not do to combat atheism. If I don't use all of my IQ, all of my energy, all of my creativity to stop it, then I will have failed God, because that's what he gave all that to me for.

Post a link?

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Here's a question for you - if you could kill off every atheist in the world and you are assured that no more atheists would ever exist, you wouldn't get into trouble, and you wouldn't kill or harm anyone but atheists with the act, would you do it?  Also, the act wouldn't take any effort for you to accomplish (you seem to be all talk and no action so we wouldn't want to tax you), all you'd have to do is come to a decision and state it aloud.  The atheists wouldn't leave any stinky bodies lying around to cause disease and their friends and family members wouldn't remember that they had ever existed.  And for the sake of the question we'll pretend that all babies are conceived believing in Jesus so you wouldn't kill any babies.   So, would you do it?

Finally, a question worth answering: No.

Where would the glory be in that? Better to make a Paul out of a Saul, if you know your book of Acts. Besides, if that's how God wanted me to do it, he would have given me a different skill set.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"but some of us know right from wrong without needing some book or religion to tell us it is so.

Self-righteousness is the key to any successful atheistic life. But I know you're FOS.

 

QuoteIf you're only behaving yourself because you fear punishment from God or believe you have to be like Christ and that's the only thing holding you back from being a liar, cheat, and thief, well than yeah, you are an atrocious person.

So are you. But your narcissism blinds you. Isn't that the real reason you're an atheist: to stay blind? Admit it. You're not fooling me.

 

QuoteGoodness in a person should not be contingent on belief in God, and if it is, than that person was never good to begin with.

Well, that's the first thing to being a Christian, isn't it? To admit you're not a good person.

You know, it's funny, I tried to sit on the fence but it's impossible. I don't want to be a Christian, because I don't want to be associated with the con artists, the molesters, the hypocrites and the evildoers. And yet, I love Jesus Christ and God. I am a Christian whether I want to be or not.

<dubble bubble>

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Self-righteousness is the key to any successful atheistic life. But I know you're FOS.

What?  Is this Edward the Theist being rude?  Are you cursing?

QuoteSo are you. But your narcissism blinds you. Isn't that the real reason you're an atheist: to stay blind? Admit it. You're not fooling me.

Edward the Theist sees all.  ALL.

QuoteWell, that's the first thing to being a Christian, isn't it? To admit you're not a good person.

The first step is not the journey. Edward.  You can still, and apparently have, gone awry.

QuoteYou know, it's funny, I tried to sit on the fence but it's impossible. I don't want to be a Christian, because I don't want to be associated with the con artists, the molesters, the hypocrites and the evildoers. And yet, I love Jesus Christ and God. I am a Christian whether I want to be or not.

Fine, quit your goddamned preaching and keep it to yourself.  If you're the best God can scrape up, I'd say he's scraping bottom.

Well, you may be right on at least one count, EtT.  I am bit of a narcissist.  Know why?  Because I'm fucking awesome.  Because I'm going to continue to do good things and be a good person, REGARDLESS of what some yahoo on the internet thinks of me.  So yeah, I will go ahead and toot my own horn, because I already know I'm a better person than you.  By your own admission you don't strive to be a kind, honest, upstanding individual, even though you claim your goal is to be like Christ, and these are things I try to do anyway, in spite of being an atheist.  Sometimes I fuck up, but instead of wasting my time praying for forgiveness, I try to fix those mistakes.  All in all, I feel pretty good about this.  But thank you for reminding me that I am in fact superior to some people out there, namely you in this particular instance.  Everyone loves a good ego boost every now and then.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I hate atheism. Yes. I don't hate atheists; actually I prefer atheists to the religious people I know. But I hate atheism with a rather extreme passion. Thank God it's all imaginary. Perhaps I'll wake up one day and it will all be gone.

Bias spotted, in this thread.

Ehhh, so what, everyone is biased in some way or another.

I´ve spotted several other biases of other people, in this thread.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Well, you may be right on at least one count, EtT.  I am bit of a narcissist.  Know why?  Because I'm fucking awesome.  Because I'm going to continue to do good things and be a good person, REGARDLESS of what some yahoo on the internet thinks of me.  So yeah, I will go ahead and toot my own horn, because I already know I'm a better person than you. By your own admission you don't strive to be a kind, honest, upstanding individual, even though you claim your goal is to be like Christ, and these are things I try to do anyway, in spite of being an atheist.  Sometimes I fuck up, but instead of wasting my time praying for forgiveness, I try to fix those mistakes.  All in all, I feel pretty good about this.  But thank you for reminding me that I am in fact superior to some people out there, namely you in this particular instance.  Everyone loves a good ego boost every now and then.

Ladies and gentleman! May I present: The Atheist!  

Seriously, how is someone who thinks the way you do going to make the world a better place? Everyone already walks around thinking they're an emporer. You think you're superior because I'm able to say I'm not a good person? Who told you you were good? You?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Who told you you were good? You?

I think most people are narcissists, deep down. The rest are emo.

Also, please try to keep generalizations to a minimum. A sample size of 1 * philosoraptor is not sufficent.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Seriously, how is someone who thinks the way you do going to make the world a better place? Everyone already walks around thinking they're an emporer. You think you're superior because I'm able to say I'm not a good person? Who told you you were good? You?

I certainly don't owe you any explanations.  I KNOW I make the world a better place.  And sometimes, all that means is giving a stranger a ride, buying a homeless guy a cup of coffee, donating blood, or sponsoring a child in need.  I don't need outside validation, but I do get it from people who acknowledge the good things I do.  And I will continue to do those things, even if no one acknowledges them.  I like helping people, because I believe each other is all we have in the absence of a higher power.

And yes, I do feel superior to you.  Because you would judge all atheists by my actions alone, in addition to making false claims that you can't back up about everything from atheism to existentialism to Hitler and beyond.  I still believe there are good, honest and open-minded Christians out there, despite your actions.  So far you've done nothing but make false accusations and deliberately bait people, and in my book, that makes you a troll.

Thanks for playing, but you lose.  

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Because you would judge all atheists by my actions alone,

Wait a minute. You've been going on at some length about how superior you are. You even illustrated with some cliche token example of the good works you believe you should do, might do, just kind of put your arm around for the photo op and do, what have you.

So, if you're superior to me, and you're a good person and a blessing to the world, how have I been bad by judging atheists by your actions?

Not quite checkmate yet, is it?

This is pointless and silly.  

EtT, you've obviously missed the point.  Either I'm a good example of an atheist, or I'm not, but you can't have it both ways.  But I digress.  I'm tired of you, given you're about as entertaining as a brick wall.  Consider yourself foed.  

Quote from: "philosoraptor"EtT, you've obviously missed the point.  Either I'm a good example of an atheist, or I'm not, but you can't have it both ways.  But I digress.  I'm tired of you, given you're about as entertaining as a brick wall.  Consider yourself foed.  

I forgot about that feature!  Good idea, man.

I don't use the foe feature often, but when I do, it's sweet.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"So, if you're superior to me, and you're a good person and a blessing to the world, how have I been bad by judging atheists by your actions?

Take another drink, kid.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"I hate atheism. Yes. I don't hate atheists; actually I prefer atheists to the religious people I know. But I hate atheism with a rather extreme passion. Thank God it's all imaginary. Perhaps I'll wake up one day and it will all be gone.

Bias spotted, in this thread.

Ehhh, so what, everyone is biased in some way or another.

I´ve spotted several other biases of other people, in this thread.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I haven't asserted otherwise.

I pointed out this particular bias for my own purpose; to wit, contrasting his "not the ordinary theist" rhetoric against his, well, ordinary theist rhetoric.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"You know, it's funny, I tried to sit on the fence but it's impossible. I don't want to be a Christian, because I don't want to be associated with the con artists, the molesters, the hypocrites and the evildoers. And yet, I love Jesus Christ and God. I am a Christian whether I want to be or not.

It's kind of like being an idiot... A hard habit to shake... Or so I hear.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"EtT, you've obviously missed the point.  Either I'm a good example of an atheist, or I'm not, but you can't have it both ways.  But I digress.  I'm tired of you, given you're about as entertaining as a brick wall.  Consider yourself foed.  :bananacolor:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"You know, it's funny, I tried to sit on the fence but it's impossible. I don't want to be a Christian, because I don't want to be associated with the con artists, the molesters, the hypocrites and the evildoers. And yet, I love Jesus Christ and God. I am a Christian whether I want to be or not.

It's kind of like being an idiot... A hard habit to shake... Or so I hear.

See how Whitney lets you break the rules, but enforces them with me. That's because I'm greater. And yet not me, but Christ in me. Because one thing atheists know, and they know it down deep, to not have faith is a weakness.

So, you get a break.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"See how Whitney lets you break the rules, but enforces them with me. That's because I'm greater. And yet not me, but Christ in me. Because one thing atheists know, and they know it down deep, to not have faith is a weakness.

So, you get a break.

Nowhere in your quote did I break the rules.

EDIT: I guess I'll have to explain, since you obviously don't know your way around words that well.

I did not call you or anyone an idiot. Nor have I directly implied as much. What I did was compare the state of being unable to break from pointless speculations and ancient superstitions to the state of idiocy in regard to breaking out of the named states.

Not only is this not against the rules, it's not even in the grey zone. Maybe just a little in regard to unfriendliness, but you have not deserved anything more from me, as judged by your conduct here so far.

How about answering the core of my first question in clear terms, for instance?

What use does the Universe have for your god? Or, on microscale, what use do I have for it?

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"See how Whitney lets you break the rules, but enforces them with me. That's because I'm greater. And yet not me, but Christ in me. Because one thing atheists know, and they know it down deep, to not have faith is a weakness.

So, you get a break.

Nowhere in your quote did I break the rules.

EDIT: I guess I'll have to explain, since you obviously don't know your way around words that well.

I did not call you or anyone an idiot. Nor have I directly implied as much. What I did was compare the state of being unable to break from pointless speculations and ancient superstitions to the state of idiocy in regard to breaking out of the named states.

Not only is this not against the rules, it's not even in the grey zone. Maybe just a little in regard to unfriendliness, but you have not deserved anything more from me, as judged by your conduct here so far.

How about answering the core of my first question in clear terms, for instance?

What use does the Universe have for your god? Or, on microscale, what use do I have for it?

It is held in existence by Him, and so are you.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"It is held in existence by Him, and so are you.

All you have to do is produce one shred of plausible evidence for that.

After all, slightly rephrasing the question, why would the Universe need your god to keep it going? (And why do I, for that matter? I need food, water and correct climatic conditions to survive - that's all - unless of course you have scientific evidence to the countrary)

That said, I'm willing to examine even indirect evidence which can be defined as such. Witness testimonies, pre-scientific method scriptures, tales of miracles and vague prophecies still do not qualify.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "philosoraptor"EtT, you've obviously missed the point.  Either I'm a good example of an atheist, or I'm not, but you can't have it both ways.  But I digress.  I'm tired of you, given you're about as entertaining as a brick wall.  Consider yourself foed.  :bananacolor:

...so now it's a matter of who can endure the other for longer, huh?

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Your point may be meaningless.  Setting aside your obvious misinterpretation of my post, I have to ask, what would you have me do?  Join your two person cult?

By your definition, everybody is abdicating except you and the one other person who believes what you do.  Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and Atheists all reject your theories.  Why are you singling out atheism for attack?

Yeah, even I have rejected my theory. It doesn't work. It was based on a limited understanding of God. I went as far as I could with it, but in the end, as we discussed already, one has to take a leap of faith.

My two-person cult is not open for membership. You can't be a Veridican. You can only be you. Why? Because there is no organization. Veridicanism has two tenets: God is monistic in nature and the human purpose is to be Christ. So, what do I want you to do? Become Christ. How? Now that you're an atheist read two Gospels: the Gospel of John, and any other one you want, even the Gospel of Thomas if you want. But when you read, consider Jesus as your higher self, and consider all the disciples to be aspects of your current personality. Then you will begin to see that the Gospel was written by you, for you, at this moment in history.

The only interpretation then that matters is yours, not the Church's, not your past Sunday school teacher's, not your parents', not your big sister's--you are the expert. What you say it means is what it means.

That's what I would have you do.

That's it?  Read the bible and interpret it for myself?  I did that years ago.  If it means what I say it means then it is gibberish.  I hoped you had a point.  I really did.  

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"You know, it's funny, I tried to sit on the fence but it's impossible. I don't want to be a Christian, because I don't want to be associated with the con artists, the molesters, the hypocrites and the evildoers. And yet, I love Jesus Christ and God. I am a Christian whether I want to be or not.

It's kind of like being an idiot... A hard habit to shake... Or so I hear.

See how Whitney lets you break the rules, but enforces them with me. That's because I'm greater. And yet not me, but Christ in me. Because one thing atheists know, and they know it down deep, to not have faith is a weakness.

So, you get a break.

I think that by acting uncivil you forfeit  your right to be treated in a civil manner. Not to mention you continue to break other rules, such as preaching.  

Quote from: "Sophus"I think that by acting uncivil you forfeit  your right to be treated in a civil manner. Not to mention you continue to break other rules, such as preaching.  

Oh, so if I state what I believe, it's preaching. If I say Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, that's preaching. I would think preaching is when you state things and then don't come back in to debate them. Otherwise, you might as well just say that theists in general are breaking the rules by posting in here. Or just not allow them in to begin with.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"That's it?  Read the bible and interpret it for myself?  I did that years ago.  If it means what I say it means then it is gibberish.  I hoped you had a point.  I really did.  

Oh, BS. Look how you just blow off the advice that would save you. You have other reasons for being an atheist. It has nothing to do with belief when it comes to you.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

Quote from: "Sophus"I think that by acting uncivil you forfeit  your right to be treated in a civil manner. Not to mention you continue to break other rules, such as preaching.  

Oh, so if I state what I believe, it's preaching. If I say Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, that's preaching. I would think preaching is when you state things and then don't come back in to debate them. Otherwise, you might as well just say that theists in general are breaking the rules by posting in here. Or just not allow them in to begin with.

This is preaching:

QuoteThere is a morality in the world that basically stems from Christianity....

And, yes, atheists follow that same morality and even brag about how they are better at it than Christians, but that doesn't matter because it all stems from the notion that Christ is perfection and we should be like Him. You don't have to like it; you don't have to believe it; but anyone who's lived a day in their life knows it's the way things are.

You believe in the genetic goodness of mankind, but that doesn't exist. We are all, to a person, cruddy selfish assholes. Take away the Chrisitian foundation--take away all the little churches along the side of the road you see everywhere here in the South--and we will eat each other.

Society will fail. Social contracts will fail. We will have to go back to the forest and live in the trees, just like all the other animals.

Atheism is a belief that stems from an utter hatred of humanity. It must be stopped at all costs.

Why is it preaching? There's no claim, data, warrant format to this. No evidence, no examples, no real argument. Just assertions, atheist bashing, flamboyant arrogance and - although you avoided fire and brimstone - you included a good dose of end of days nonsense (with of course us to blame) which is not in any way productive or anywhere near a mark of sanity. It's also perpetuating already corrected stereotypes, which have demonstrated no interest in reconsidering. Atheists do not, as a whole, share any beliefs. We only share the lack of one belief. That's it.

[spoiler:2yf9fnsi]This is where, I predict, Edward will once again enlighten us as to what atheism really is. AKA preaching.[/spoiler:2yf9fnsi]

By the way, I was a raised Christian, so I think that counts toward having spent a few "days in the life".

Dear Edward the Theist

I have just re-read through this entire 8 page thread. I commented about mid way, and admittedly haven't been following it all that much. But I wish I had. I have been enlightened by your positions. I feel I'm ready to convert to your religion and give up my evil ways as an atheist.

Currently, I am a "closet" atheist to some, because there are people in my life (mainly my parents) that I'm just not sure how they would react if they *knew* I was an all out evil heathen, as I've come to realize I am. But, the people that do know that I am currently an atheist still love me. My wife, my brother, my closest friends. But, it isn't fair to them that they should have to willingly associate with an evil person, so I should just convert back so that they won't go to Hell.

I don't know how I ever could possibly have fallen in to the trap of atheism. I mean, look at some of the blatant judgements and vitriol with which they write In the comments that follow:

QuoteWhat planet are you freakin living on?

QuoteYou guys are so absolutely full of shit it's beyond me.

QuoteYou let others do your thinking for you and then follow them, because that's the easy thing to do.

QuoteBut I know you're FOS.

So, your mission shall be complete. You have converted on person to your ideals. You can stop posting now.


Respectfully,

Hismikeness
[spoiler:21gqgaax]Those were all quotes, from this thread, from Edward the Theist.[/spoiler:21gqgaax]
[spoiler:21gqgaax]Also, this post is laced with sarcasm, in case anyone missed it...  [/spoiler:21gqgaax]