Happy Atheist Forum

I'm new to this forum, so I have one biting question, and I think this is a great platform to ask it. I'm not prejudiced against atheists or anything, however I never understood how someone can not believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot disprove the God of the bible's existence.

How can you prove God does not exist?

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'm new to this forum, [snip]

How can you prove God does not exist?

Since you're new, I'll point out that you're being an incredible troll with this post.  I'll start with a mere pointer to one of the good resources for such questions, Iron Chariots Wiki: You can't prove God doesn't exist (http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=You_can%27t_prove_God_doesn%27t_exist)

The key point you are likely missing is that the theist claim there is a deity of some sort is a positive claim that actually has no real evidence behind it.  As such, it is those of us labelled atheists that point out that fact and follow it up with: since there is no testable/reliable/objective evidence that has ever been presented to us (absent horribly fallacious statements with no real backing), we can only say "the creature you posit has no evidence, until you can provide some I withhold accepting that such a being exists."

Some go even further and point out that according to the various scriptures, the being posited by the abrahamic traditions is so internally inconsistent that that specific one can categorically be shown not to exist with all of the details claimed by its followers and is deemed unworthy of respect even if most of the truth claims were somehow verified.

As such, depending on your next post, I suspect a ban-hammer might well be in your future, so choose your responses carefully.

Atheists don't have to prove god doesn't exist.
To be taken seriously theists need to prove he does.
The evidence for god is non existent, it always comes back to god is true because he says so.

Many atheists will concede an extremely small chance of something other.
This is part of having an open mind.

But the god of the bible is just plain silly.

But what if you're wrong?

Welcome to Happy Atheist Forum!

Here, let me explain in your own words, slightly altered - I'm not prejudiced against [strike:iqipnzx6]atheists[/strike:iqipnzx6] Christians or anything, however I never understood how someone can [strike:iqipnzx6]not[/strike:iqipnzx6] believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot [strike:iqipnzx6]dis[/strike:iqipnzx6]prove the God of the bible's existence.  How can you prove God does [strike:iqipnzx6]not[/strike:iqipnzx6] exist?

Prove that Thor doesn't exist.  Prove that unicorns don't exist.

You can't prove Thor and unicorns don't exist so why don't you believe in them?

Most atheists don't make a positive knowledge claim such as "I know God does not exist" it's usually more like "there's no evidence God exists so it's pretty unlikely that God does exist."  See the difference?  It's like "I know the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist" and "I don't think the Loch Ness monster exists."

And this is a great place to ask your questions about atheists and atheism!

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Welcome to Happy Atheist Forum!

Here, let me explain in your own words, slightly altered - I'm not prejudiced against [strike:1gbfchj2]atheists[/strike:1gbfchj2] Christians or anything, however I never understood how someone can [strike:1gbfchj2]not[/strike:1gbfchj2] believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot [strike:1gbfchj2]dis[/strike:1gbfchj2]prove the God of the bible's existence.  How can you prove God does [strike:1gbfchj2]not[/strike:1gbfchj2] exist?

Prove that Thor doesn't exist.  Prove that unicorns don't exist.

You can't prove Thor and unicorns don't exist so why don't you believe in them?

Most atheists don't make a positive knowledge claim such as "I know God does not exist" it's usually more like "there's no evidence God exists so it's pretty unlikely that God does exist."  See the difference?  It's like "I know the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist" and "I don't think the Loch Ness monster exists."

And this is a great place to ask your questions about atheists and atheism!

But what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?

But what if you're wrong?  What if Thor, or Shiva, or Odin, or some other God is the real one?  The only two options in existence are not that if atheists are wrong then Christians are right.  Jews could be right.  Muslims could be right.  Satanists could be right.  Hindus could be right.  Anybody might be.  We could all be wrong, though, you included.

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

What if you are wrong about Thor, Odin, Mithra, Allah, Vishnu, Pan, Zeus, etc?  You don't believe in them.  Explain why you don't believe in them and you'll understand why we don't believe in your God.

And that's very faulty logic you are using there.  There are far more than two options.  There are thousands of other religions.  Should we also believe and practice all of them just in case?

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

How exactly are we supposed to believe in something we don't think is real, something for which no empirical evidence exists?  

Think of something you don't think is real.  I don't know what, fairies maybe.  Now, believe in them.  You can't, can you?  Even if I told you the King of the Fairies would torture you for eternity if you don't, you still can't.

And here's another thought for you - what if you are right?  What if the God of the Bible, who condones slavery and genocide, who got a teenage girl pregnant, who calls for the murder of disobedient sons, who requires rape victims to marry their rapists, and who will torture eternally anyone who doesn't love him - what if that God is real?  Think of anyone else expressing love of their children that way.  What if your dad required you to worship him or he'd tie you up and shove needles under your fingernails?  Would he be expressing love or would he be a raving psychopath?

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'm new to this forum, so I have one biting question, and I think this is a great platform to ask it. I'm not prejudiced against atheists or anything, however I never understood how someone can not believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot disprove the God of the bible's existence.

How can you prove God does not exist?

Hello, and welcome to HAF, pc4lf.

I can't speak for anyone else on this topic, but I'll give you my answer:  I can't prove that the Christian god does not exist.  I don't need to. However, no Christian can prove that their god does exist.  Sure, there are a number of bogus "proofs of God's existence" out there, but they all fall far short of producing the goods as advertised.  I came to atheism at a very young age, by watching those who professed to believe in the Christian god, and by applying basic logic to the problem, in conjunction with the evidence before me.  I'm very close to "hard atheism," and depending on my mood, I will outright deny that the Christian, or any other of the thousands of gods is anything more than a figment of human imagination. I decided even before I became an atheist that if the Christian god exists, then I am opposed to him and those who are members of his faithful flock.  While I've met plenty of Christians since then who were good people, I was lucky enough to grow up around some who were poltroonish, malicious mountebanks.  My initial judgment of the situation was based almost as much on emotion as cogitation. Deeper thinking and investigation has only confirmed it.  Religion provides comfort to many people in the world, so I no longer loath and despise it as I once did. but it also provides a really good reason to do evil for a number of people, so I can't say that I respect it much either.

I see that while I've typed this answer, you've gotten a couple of others, and asked a second question:

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?

If I'm wrong then I'll be spending eternity in hell, and I'll be in good company.  I've heard a number of times that the "one unforgivable sin" is to deny the Christian god's existence.  If that's the case, then plenty of vicious swine will be going to heaven, and plenty of fine, otherwise good people will be going to hell.  I'll take my chances with the goats-- I never could get along well with the sheep.

For what it's worth, I'm willing to take your questions on face value.  I consider them honest and reasonable, if perhaps somewhat ingenuous. Until you prove otherwise, I, for one, don't consider you a troll, and the moderators on this forum don't ban without good reason, and plenty of warning, so don't be intimidated.

You don't go to heaven if you're good. You go if you believe. Don't underestimate belief. Belief can move mountains.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You don't go to heaven if you're good. You go if you believe. Don't underestimate belief. Belief can move mountains.

I understand that only too well.  Which is why I said, "...plenty of vicious swine will be going to heaven, and plenty of fine, otherwise good people will be going to hell."

But what's the problem with that? They perfectally understood that their lack of faith (like yours) could potentially land them in hell. It's their fault.

The only way that I know of that you can prove that a specific god does not exist if you find a contradiction.  It can be between a portion of a holy book (if you claim it is the infallible word of the god) and something else we know to be true, or it can be a self contradiction.

Lack of a contradiction is not, however, evidence for the said god.

QuoteHow can you prove God does not exist?

I can't prove that every god mankind has ever thought up doesn't exist but I can disprove Yahweh, just as I can disprove that elephants don't exist at Yellowstone Park (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/the-evidence-against-god_b_682169.html).

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'm new to this forum, so I have one biting question, and I think this is a great platform to ask it. I'm not prejudiced against atheists or anything, however I never understood how someone can not believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot disprove the God of the bible's existence.

How can you prove God does not exist?

I don't need to.  You should either present your evidence for god(s), or abstain from preaching.

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?

Also, why, at the end of the day, do most Christian arguments end up with this appeal to fear?  Is your god so ignoble he must threaten in order to win converts?  Is your god so weak he cannot punish in this life?  Is your god so [strike:1ha7zagz]good[/strike:1ha7zagz] evil that he will torture for eternity simply for the lack of obeisant worship?

Should I stuff my son in the oven when he mouths off?

Puh-leeze.  As trolls go, you're very 1997.

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

I question those odds.
What if god is testing you.
What if he really wants good people who can think for themselves.

Have you heard the claim that god needs malleable unquestioning souls to mend a fault in time/space.
These poor souls will suffer an eternity of ultimate pain and suffering.
It is said the free thinkers will be free to create their own paradise.

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'm new to this forum, so I have one biting question, and I think this is a great platform to ask it. I'm not prejudiced against atheists or anything, however I never understood how someone can not believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot disprove the God of the bible's existence.

How can you prove God does not exist?

You can't disprove anything unless it's a contradiction or unless that which is to be proved has no definition. My problem with what you ask is this: Who is the god of the Bible? He is different in different books. Jesus shows us an altogether different God than we find in the Old Testament. Sometimes God is like a Greek God, sometimes he's like an angel, sometimes he's like a Father, sometimes more like a pet owner (in the case of Adam and Eve) and sometimes he is a spirit. In the case of Jesus, sometimes he is like a man. Currently, he is a Trinity.

The disproof of the "God of the Bible." is that there never has been a stable definition. If God is real, God is defined. If God cannot be defined, then God is not a real thing.

I don't ask you to prove God's existence. I ask you merely to form a coherent definition of God.

You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

Quote from: "pc4lf"Don't underestimate belief. Belief can move mountains.

So show me the mountain that was moved by belief.

It's not a matter of proving that God does not exist. It's a matter of being a fully thinking human being. Belief is a very nice thing for children, but one has to grow up you know.

But you're right about faith being simple. Being a fully thinking human being requires a great deal more than simply being faithful to an invisible sky-god.

But hey, welcome to to the forum.

Edit: You mention hell. If you had never heard of hell, if hell was never spoken of in the Catholic or any other religion, would it make any difference to your firm belief in Jesus and God?

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

Perhaps this (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5630&hilit=pascal%27s+wager#p78313) thread regarding Pascal's Wager would be of interest to you.  A few of us have been discussing why we don't think there is a point in believing just to believe.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

So I suppose followers of this simple god must be simpletons.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

Hey, could you post a pic of your god?

I didn't think so.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

This just pisses me off. I encourage overthinking. Why blindly accept what you're told without question? Just...ugh. I think Magic Pudding's got it right with the simpleton thing.

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'm new to this forum, so I have one biting question, and I think this is a great platform to ask it. I'm not prejudiced against atheists or anything, however I never understood how someone can not believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot disprove the God of the bible's existence.

How can you prove God does not exist?

Welcome aboard. And you are quite right this is a great place to find out what atheists actually think. First things first, there are two basic flavours of atheist de-facto and strong. A de-facto atheist, like myself does not deny a God of some sort could exist, a strong atheist does deny that God exists. The burden of proof to disprove the existance of any deity would definitely fall on the shoulders of a strong atheist. Here is a screen shot from a thread on the now defunct Richard Dawkins forum, where I was for a time a moderator.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.imageshack.us%2Fimg594%2F2415%2Fatheistpoll.th.jpg&hash=413e5ffe76bbee31212dad598324b96f6cae5f45) (http://img594.imageshack.us/i/atheistpoll.jpg/)

Now the original thread was instigated to show the demographic of the forum members and asked people to self classify on the Dawkins theistic scale. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability) There was a huge and ongoing debate between de-facto and strong atheists as to which was the right view and why various people held it.  

So, of the 4,555 people who self identified as an atheist 3,289 (72.2%) were de-facto and 1,266 (27.8%) were strong, so you can actually only direct your question How can you prove God does not exist? at a minority of people who self identify as atheists, the majority of atheists do not deny the possibility of the existance of some sort of deity.

Now for the majority of atheists who do not deny the possibility of a God of some sort existing, such as I, the burden of proof of the existance of said deity rests fair and square on shoulders of people who assert that said deity does exist, like you.

It is your responsibility to prove to me that your version of a deity exists. However, until you do that I will maintain my world view that there is no effective evidence for the existance of the supernatural, or that part of the supernatural is sentient, or that sentient part of the supernatural is in any way concerned with the behaviour of an evolved ape on an obscure planet in the outer reaches of one of billions of galaxies and has only been concerned for 4,000 years of the last 13,750,000,000 years.

The ball is in your court now.

Regards
Chris

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

Absolutely correct. God is the easy answer that requires no thought and faith requires no effort. Why do you think the concept of God has been invoked by most people who do not want to make an effort, or did not have the capability, to find out what is really going on?

Quote from: "Tank"God was the creation of human frailty and fear, in particular the fear of the perceived but not understood and the unconscious ramblings of the mind. At the dawn of human awareness came the moment of knowledge without understanding. Humans have evolved into cause and effect machines, we see cause we infer effect, we see effect and we infer cause. It's the way we evolved as the ability to second guess our prey and/or predictors is a huge evolutionary advantage. But with this ability came the cost of cognitive dissonance when a cause is seen or an effect is observed we are evolved to balance that equation. And every night unconsciousness came, not in a comfortable bed in a secure home, but surrounded by predators out in the open. And there were dreams and nightmares, the unexplained visions, an affect of what? What caused the visions seen at night that were good or bad, heaven or hell? So our ancestors had knowledge, they could see the Sun rise, they had effect but no cause, they did not understand why the Sun rose, a psychologically intolerable situation. They knew their dreams, visions of beauty and fear, an effect with no cause. So they balanced the equation with superstition and called it God. God is the filler in the cracks of our evolved mind.

From this post viewtopic.php?p=74274#p74274 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=74274#p74274)

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?

What if you're wrong? Seriously entertain that notion and you'll realise how much of your life you've wasted/are wasting..

I'm quite happy to ask that of myself and i'm very comfortable with the outcome. I'll be judged to have been a decent and kind person in this life. If belief is definitely a requirement then whatever bullish homicidal maniac presides over us, doesn't deserve any praise from me.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

I question those odds.
What if god is testing you.
What if he really wants good people who can think for themselves.

Have you heard the claim that god needs malleable unquestioning souls to mend a fault in time/space.
These poor souls will suffer an eternity of ultimate pain and suffering.
It is said the free thinkers will be free to create their own paradise.

Oooh, i like that one!
 

Quote from: "karadan"Oooh, i like that one!

Do you mean the proposal "god needs malleable unquestioning souls to mend a fault in time/space".
I'm open to any suggestions of pseudo scientific terminology to improve it.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

God is not simple at all. If the christen idea of god was as such, their most likely would not be tens of thousands of denominations. God is contradictory and morally archaic because it is the work of bigoted men.

And welcome to the forum!

Lemme be the last in a long line of people to say that we do not have to prove nonexistence of gods. That is the default position unless the concept has a purpose in the Universe, in which case it still has to be proven not to be purely hypothetical in nature.

Unless you can prove it or otherwise demonstrate it beyond reasonable doubt, it's safe to assume "it" doesn't exist. For instance, the Dark Matter is one such. We know there is something there, but is it the hypothesized dark matter or does it have other properties? We don't know. Thus, we don't know whether or not dark matter exists and, if you feel the need to polarize it to two, that is a statement to the negative. (Note that Dark Matter is just an illustrative example before you start a massive subparticle physics game with me    )

I do not need proof. Those making a positive claim (something exists) bear the burden of proof. I disbelieve their claim because it lacks evidence and logical consistency. This is a pretty standard viewpoint among Atheists.

However, I want to address your statement that I/we cannot disprove the existence of god. That's not entirely true. It depends very much on the definition of god being used. A very detailed definition of god might easily be disproven. A generic claim that some type of higher power exists cannot. However, in between these two extremes exists a continuum of varying degrees of specificity. The more specific the definition, the lower the probability that the entity exists.

I see this often in debates. A Theist will say to me, "You agree that a deity of some type may exist. You can't rule it out." Yes, I do agree that I cannot rule it out (disprove it). Then, the Theist jumps right to discussing the Bible. Oh, wait, hold on. I agreed that I couldn't disprove some type of entity, that doesn't equate to the more specific definition now being used when the Bible comes into play. If the person believes in Yahweh literally as defined by the Bible, with the actions described in the Bible, yes, I can disprove that 100%.

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?

What if you are wrong about Krisha, Isis, Osiris, Durga, or any of the other thousands of deities exists? I assure you that you are not living by the Egyptian Negative Confession, and if you are wrong about that, your soul will be consumed by Amit and cease to exist when you are judged in the Hall of Osiris by the Law of Ma'at.

This "what if you are wrong" bet-hedging is what is known as Pascal's wager. I actually used it at one point myself, when I was in my early teens. It is not logically valid. I can explain why if you really have an interest.

QuoteBut what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

Really? The chance is 50/50? From where do you get that probability? Have you taken statistics? This is so improbable, it's like worrying that lightning will strike me 500 times tomorrow. The real probability of something is the result of multiplying the probabilities of each claim. The  probability of each claim is the number values you wish (in this case, 1) divided by the number of actual possibilities. The lower the denominator, the lower the probability.

God exists: Given the complete lack of evidence, I wouldn't give this a 50/50 shot at all. However, I'll humor you on it. 1/2
God is the Abrahamic deity: 1/3000 (actually, probably less, as the actual number of possibilities is infinite, the deity could be of a type never defined by any religion)
Hell exists: 1/3000 (you'd be surprised at the young age of the concept of hell...Judaism does not have it...probability likely far less than what I've given here)

You go on and on for each stated level of specificity (for each trait that you define the deity to have). Then, you multiply them all together. So, in our example, it would look like this:

1/2 * 1/3000 * 1/3000 = 1/18,000,000

Just with this small example, you are at a probability of 1 in 18 MILLION that it exists. (I'd give it as a percentage, but it has to be expressed in scientific notation.)

Now as to the why not...

You make all the false assumptions that Pascal's Wager (Pascal's Faulty Wager, I call it) makes.

1.) Belief is a choice. You can choose to believe even though you are not convinced.
2.) If a deity exists, that deity is singular, masculine, and is associated with Hell (ie: the Bible or Koran...Yahweh).
3.) The deity would care whether or not I believe in it.
4.) The deity would reward belief and punish unbelief in the afterlife. (Hint:  A deity could well exist without an afterlife existing. See also: sum total of possibilities)
5.) A deity meeting criteria 1-4 would accept me choosing to behave as if I believe simply to avoid punishment. ie: from self-interest

I simply will not abdicate my rational faculties, or pretend to, for such a remote possibility when the evidence is utterly insufficient (in fact, non-existent).

Nice! A person who can do some proper math. I approve  

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "karadan"Oooh, i like that one!

Do you mean the proposal "god needs malleable unquestioning souls to mend a fault in time/space".
I'm open to any suggestions of pseudo scientific terminology to improve it.

That, and the test being faith itself. All religious people actually going to hell because they failed the test to think for themselves.

That's an excellent beginning to a piece of great fiction, methinks.

Now you have to find a link between the soul and space-time.  

Quote from: "AntigoneRisen"Massive post of awesome

Oooh, you are going to fit in well here.

Hopefully you'll stay longer than four posts.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You don't go to heaven if you're good. You go if you believe. Don't underestimate belief. Belief can move mountains.

Yes, exactly, you do not go if you are good. (According to Christian dogma.) You can be a genocidal, raping, lying, cheating, stealing asshole and go to heaven if you accept Yeshua (Jesus) into your heart at the last minute. This literally means that if Hitler repented on his deathbed, he'd go to heaven, while Gandhi, who never accepted Yeshua but preached nonviolence to end oppression, would go to Hell. You call that morality or justice?

Let me be frank, here. You need to separate two things: proving a deity exists and convincing me to worship that deity. Even if you could prove Yahweh existed and I accepted that, I would not have the slightest inclination to worship him. (Unless you could prove He is most decidedly not as the Bible describes him.) Yahweh orders genocides in the Bible. He praises Lot for offering his daughters to a mob of rapists. He deliberately and repeatedly hardens Pharaoh's heart to bring about his "wonders" in Egypt, which include the slaughter of all the first born in the country, including cattle. He requires blood sacrifice in payment for sin (see below). The Ten Commandments spend the first 3 on satiating his ego, but never once say a thing about rape or assault. He prefers David to Saul simply because Saul failed to kill enough people for him. Saul left a few Almalekites alive, and Yahweh couldn't stand it. The wonderful King David purchased his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins. All the Biblical patriarchs were polygynists with concubines (sex slaves to whom they were not married...sexual slavery = lifetime of unending rape). He approves (see Midianites) of murdering young male children, and keeping the young female children who are virgins for sex slaves. Yahweh isn't moral. He isn't amoral. He is IMMORAL. I feel no need to worship such an entity.

When you understand how you (likely) view the Koran, you will understand how I view the Bible. The Koran has a greater density of violence, but the Bible wins for sheer volume.

As for belief moving mountains, that's easy to say. Unfortunately for you, it hasn't happened. No one can do it. If so, please feel free to amaze  us and put on a demonstration.


_____________________________________________________

Sin -

Yahweh is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient by Christian dogma. (All-knowing, ever-present in everything, and all-knowing.) He created things according to his divine Plan and saw that it was good. This means he deliberately executed a plan by which most humans who have lived will be eternally tortured. He decides what is - and is not - sin, and decides what the payment for sin is (else he is not omnipotent). Thus, he sent himself as his son to earth to shed his blood to pay himself what he required for sin. He deliberately designed it so that he'd have to. If you don't think that's the most illogical, ludicrous notion, we simply must agree to disagree.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "AntigoneRisen"Massive post of awesome

Oooh, you are going to fit in well here.

Hopefully you'll stay longer than four posts. :)

Quote from: "Asmodean"Nice! A person who can do some proper math. I approve  

Thank you kindly. I do have an aversion to statistics pulled straight out of...errr...thin air.

Quote from: "AntigoneRisen"The wonderful King David purchased his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins.

Is that what went for hard currency in those times?  

By the way, you should do an introduction. I'm sure everyone would like to say hi.

Quote from: "karadan"Now you have to find a link between the soul and space-time.  

Possibly, but I could just say it with a pious expression and look to the heavens.
This is a religious treatise, huge leaps of reason are de rigueur.
I haven't got a link between soul and space-time.
But some bullshit about the timelessness of the soul, making it the only thing able to patch the rift might do.

Power figures recruiting followers and demanding blind loyalty arouse suspicion.
What are they up to?

A battle with a Satan figure could be the cause of the space-time problem.
Everyone one likes a Satan figure.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

I've read about fire breathing Christians who hate atheists and Christian Scholars who do a decent job of making the religion fit in with the real world, but the vast majority of Christians I have come across have been this variety.

I bet pc4lf is a good person (as I believe most people are good), but (s)he has probably never even thought about why (s)he is a Christian.  Maybe it's better that way.  Extremists are a scary lot indeed, but pc4lf, and people of similar ilk, are largely harmless (imo).

Christianity is simply a better version of reality for people like pc4lf.  Of course Christians can't prove that god exists, but atheists can't prove that having no faith is better than having faith.  

We are all "wrong" about something unprovable. Most of us think we are more attractive, smarter, and more ethical than what the consensus opinion would be of us.  Logically, not the same, I know, but quite similar for day to day purposes (imo).

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I've read about fire breathing Christians who hate atheists

 and Christian Scholars who do a decent job of making the religion fit in with the real world, but the vast majority of Christians I have come across have been this variety.

OK

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I bet pc4lf is a good person (as I believe most people are good), but (s)he has probably never even thought about why (s)he is a Christian.  Maybe it's better that way.  Extremists are a scary lot indeed, but pc4lf, and people of similar ilk, are largely harmless (imo).

I haven't heard pc4lf say anything to make it seem anything but a troll.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Christianity is simply a better version of reality for people like pc4lf.  Of course Christians can't prove that god exists, but atheists can't prove that having no faith is better than having faith.  

I think there are a whole lot of arguments against this.
I think it can be proved to a reasonable person.
It can't be proved to some people who have been indoctrinated from an early age.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"We are all "wrong" about something unprovable.

Some of us leave the unprovable open.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Most of us think we are more attractive, smarter, and more ethical than what the consensus opinion would be of us.  Logically, not the same, I know, but quite similar for day to day purposes (imo).

Many people are self conscious about appearance and other things.
I'll let smartness and ethics go for now.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I've read about fire breathing Christians who hate atheists

 and Christian Scholars who do a decent job of making the religion fit in with the real world, but the vast majority of Christians I have come across have been this variety.

OK

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I bet pc4lf is a good person (as I believe most people are good), but (s)he has probably never even thought about why (s)he is a Christian.  Maybe it's better that way.  Extremists are a scary lot indeed, but pc4lf, and people of similar ilk, are largely harmless (imo).

I haven't heard pc4lf say anything to make it seem anything but a troll.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Christianity is simply a better version of reality for people like pc4lf.  Of course Christians can't prove that god exists, but atheists can't prove that having no faith is better than having faith.  

I think there are a whole lot of arguments against this.
I think it can be proved to a reasonable person.
It can't be proved to some people who have been indoctrinated from an early age.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"We are all "wrong" about something unprovable.

Some of us leave the unprovable open.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Most of us think we are more attractive, smarter, and more ethical than what the consensus opinion would be of us.  Logically, not the same, I know, but quite similar for day to day purposes (imo).

Many people are self conscious about appearance and other things.
I'll let smartness and ethics go for now.

I'm not sure what "OK" means.  I see it a lot around here.  If you don't have a comment or criticism, why quote something and type "OK" under it?

Sure pc4lf is a troll, what does that have to do with him being a good person? His viewpoint seems pretty common in my real life experience.

How would one go about proving faith is necessarily bad?  Is it fair to assume those that can't be convince are unreasonable?

I put "wrong" in quotation marks.  I don't think anybody is actually wrong when it comes to pretty/smart/good.  The point is that opinions vary wildly.

I'm not sure percentage matters.  A significant number of people think more highly (or lowly) of themselves than what evidence indicates.  Generally, we seem to be OK with this kind of miscalculation, why not be OK with miscalculations about god?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F13%2FYall_niggas_postin_in_a_troll_thread.png&hash=d7d7774cece264f3bbe611a4c4069b43e083eb09)

Quote from: "SSY"(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F13%2FYall_niggas_postin_in_a_troll_thread.png&hash=d7d7774cece264f3bbe611a4c4069b43e083eb09)

   OK, I'm new to the whole troll thing.  I just wanted to know if anybody had any ideas on how to speak to "simpler" Christians about the illogical nature of their faith.  Didn't think a new thread was warranted, so I posted here.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"How would one go about proving faith is necessarily bad?  Is it fair to assume those that can't be convince are unreasonable?

I often address a post one point at a time, OK means I agree or I'll let the point pass.

I don't like the in group out group thing.
An out group isn't truly human atrocities are OK.

Our current troll says entry to heaven is gained by belief, good deeds don't come into it.
What could be more dangerous than that?

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"How would one go about proving faith is necessarily bad?  Is it fair to assume those that can't be convince are unreasonable?

I often address a post one point at a time, OK means I agree or I'll let the point pass.

I don't like the in group out group thing.
An out group isn't truly human atrocities are OK.

Our current troll says entry to heaven is gained by belief, good deeds don't come into it.
What could be more dangerous than that?

Doing something about it. Ideas are like guns, not inherently dangerous, it's just when a moron gets hold of one you never know what will happen next!

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"How would one go about proving faith is necessarily bad?  Is it fair to assume those that can't be convince are unreasonable?

I often address a post one point at a time, OK means I agree or I'll let the point pass.

I don't like the in group out group thing.
An out group isn't truly human atrocities are OK.

Our current troll says entry to heaven is gained by belief, good deeds don't come into it.
What could be more dangerous than that?

I dunno.  I haven't met many Christians who thinks it's OK to do bad things to atheists, let alone hold the opinion that we aren't truly human.  Not saying that those folks don't exist, but my experience suggests that there are few of them and the vast majority of Christians consider them the "out group".

Our current troll believes as most Christians believe--the underlined seems to be the lowest common denominator of the religion.  

Generally, Christians are no more or less dangerous than atheists.  People are people.  I don't know personally know any Christians who think slavery, genocide and subjugation of women are OK.  Obviously, they are not following their book all that closely.  Whether they know it or not, they are good people in spite of being Christian, not because of it.  They use their good sense to know what is right or wrong just like atheists.

I'm not arguing with you MP.  I'm an atheist, I'm just trying to wrap my head around a better way to deal with the Christians I commonly deal with day to day without belittling them or being insincere.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I'm not arguing with you MP.  I'm an atheist, I'm just trying to wrap my head around a better way to deal with the Christians I commonly deal with day to day without belittling them or being insincere.

It's OK to argue.
I don't like abuse.
If you can frame your problem into a question, people here will try to help.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Our current troll says entry to heaven is gained by belief, good deeds don't come into it.
What could be more dangerous than that?  

Sliding naked down a 20 meter razor blade into a boiling vat of concentrated hydrochloric acid.

 

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I'm not arguing with you MP.  I'm an atheist, I'm just trying to wrap my head around a better way to deal with the Christians I commonly deal with day to day without belittling them or being insincere.

It's OK to argue.
I don't like abuse.
If you can frame your problem into a question, people here will try to help.

Point taken.  

Do you think that an otherwise good person who has faith in Christ is dangerous?

If you do, could you please explain why?

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Our current troll says entry to heaven is gained by belief, good deeds don't come into it.
What could be more dangerous than that?  

Sliding naked down a 20 meter razor blade into a boiling vat of concentrated hydrochloric acid.

 

damn just the thought of it. Just. damn.

Quote from: "karadan"Sliding naked down a 20 meter razor blade into a boiling vat of concentrated hydrochloric acid.
 

To be fair and objective, you will have demonstrate the danger of the 20 metre slide.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "karadan"Sliding naked down a 20 meter razor blade into a boiling vat of concentrated hydrochloric acid.
 

To be fair and objective, you will have demonstrate the danger of the 20 metre slide.

I'll just get my camera.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Do you think that an otherwise good person who has faith in Christ is dangerous?
If you do, could you please explain why?

Before I say anything more, I'm just me, I don't know much.

I think Christianity can help people to be good.
I don't live in the US, but people there say religious weirdness reigns in some regions.
Families are split over religious issues.

I think there are Christians who are better people than me in many ways, they risk their lives, time and money helping others.
Someone who believes the world is 6000 years old and all that crap are beyond my understanding, are they dangerous? maybe.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Do you think that an otherwise good person who has faith in Christ is dangerous?
If you do, could you please explain why?

Before I say anything more, I'm just me, I don't know much.

I think Christianity can help people to be good.
I don't live in the US, but people there say religious weirdness reigns in some regions.
Families are split over religious issues.

I think there are Christians who are better people than me in many ways, they risk their lives, time and money helping others.
Someone who believes the world is 6000 years old and all that crap are beyond my understanding, are they dangerous? maybe.

thanks for the reply.  

If I understand correctly, the answer to my first question is "maybe".  

Do u have any opinions on the second part?

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I haven't heard pc4lf say anything to make it seem anything but a troll.

I understand that you, and the others who've said that the OP is a troll may be jaded by your forum experience.  It's a definite possibility that you're right, but a more charitable reading of their posts is also possible.  There are people in this world (especially younger ones, and especially in the US) who've had practically no contact with atheists.  Some of them may be curious just what type of people are they who would reject a "just and loving God."  They might even go so far as to join an atheist forum with a name that doesn't seem too threatening to satisfy their curiosity.  Such a person would be indistinguishable from pc4lf.  I've seen plenty of trolls come and go here, and there's a good chance that pc4lf won't stay long enough to be sure either way.  But for many of the trolls it is obvious from their very first post that they have nothing to contribute and are not here for anything but trouble.  I'm more than willing to treat them as they deserve. Call me soft-headed, but in a more ambiguous case, such as the OP, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt.  I'd rather be burned by yet another Christian warrior/anklebiter (it doesn't hurt, after all) than to treat an honest inquirer with less hospitality than they deserve.  Preemptively calling a new member a troll does not seem to me to be very hospitable. But that's just me.  However, I think that one of the reasons that I liked this place when I first came across it is that there was an attempt to be less hostile and more open to dialog than some other places that I had seen.  That's a result of certain policies here, but it also should be a manifestation of a certain esprit de corps. There is no shortage of bile-spewing atheist fora around; I'd like to think that atheists who join and stay at this one do so because they prefer something different.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Do you think that an otherwise good person who has faith in Christ is dangerous?
If you do, could you please explain why?

Before I say anything more, I'm just me, I don't know much.

I think Christianity can help people to be good.
I don't live in the US, but people there say religious weirdness reigns in some regions.
Families are split over religious issues.

I think there are Christians who are better people than me in many ways, they risk their lives, time and money helping others.
Someone who believes the world is 6000 years old and all that crap are beyond my understanding, are they dangerous? maybe.

thanks for the reply.  

If I understand correctly, the answer to my first question is "maybe".  

Do u have any opinions on the second part?

Potential Dangers SOME Christians offer to the rest of us.

Galileo look again they don't really move do they?.
Darwin keep that theory in the draw.
We are all going to heaven (everyone that matters)
The earth doesn't matter, take what you want.
Brother Loon says the scientists are up to no good,
let's stamp on that stem cell research.
The Pope says God says people should breed and die like rats, no birth control.
Let millions of Africans die of AIDS because condoms are evil.
A free thinker in small town the USA, ostracised by all.
Children rejected by families because they can't believe.
Elect an idiot president wearing the mask of belief.
Marching off to war without questioning why.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Galileo look again they don't really move do they?.
Darwin keep that theory in the draw.
We are all going to heaven (everyone that matters)
The earth doesn't matter, take what you want.
Brother Loon says the scientists are up to no good,
let's stamp on that stem cell research.
The Pope says God says people should breed and die like rats, no birth control.
Let millions of Africans die of AIDS because condoms are evil.
A free thinker in small town the USA, ostracised by all.
Children rejected by families because they can't believe.
Elect an idiot president wearing the mask of belief.
Marching off to war without questioning why.

Add abusing children who are too young to voice a protest in the name of religion.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Potential Dangers SOME Christians offer to the rest of us.

Galileo look again they don't really move do they?.
Darwin keep that theory in the draw.
We are all going to heaven (everyone that matters)
The earth doesn't matter, take what you want.
Brother Loon says the scientists are up to no good,
let's stamp on that stem cell research.
The Pope says God says people should breed and die like rats, no birth control.
Let millions of Africans die of AIDS because condoms are evil.
A free thinker in small town the USA, ostracised by all.
Children rejected by families because they can't believe.
Elect an idiot president wearing the mask of belief.
Marching off to war without questioning why.

Good points all.  The first one was particularly funny.  The last one particularly sad. I agree that all of these things are bad and are the direct result of Christianity.  However, I think you would agree that one can retain their faith and still come down on the side of reason on most of the issues you listed.   Mr. Obama would be just one example.  

We agree that some Christians are dangerous.  By definition, it seems we also agree that some are not.  I think we would also agree that some atheists are dangerous and some are not.  I recognize the key distinction:   atrocities aren't committed under the flag of Atheism, while much harm is done in the name of Christ.

That said, I don't think we've shown that there is any danger in faith itself.  A Christian can give up his faith and still be guilty of the moral relativism, evilness, and downright stupidity represented on your list.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Our current troll says entry to heaven is gained by belief, good deeds don't come into it.
What could be more dangerous than that?  

Sliding naked down a 20 meter razor blade into a boiling vat of concentrated hydrochloric acid.

 

How about sliding down a giant sword onto a bed of spikes....The Long Ships with Richard Widmark...
About the 4 minute point if your in a hurry...

[youtube:2xgdjaep]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AETyNpe4LE[/youtube:2xgdjaep]

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?

PC4lf,

But...what if YOU are wrong?

I can think of a pretty long list of gods who would be really pissed off at you for being Catholic and the odds of them being real are no better than the odds of the Catholic view of God being real since none of them have any supporting evidence aside from hearsay and old books.

Do you see why your question is moot?  Btw, that's called pascal's wager...philosophers who are worth their salt don't use it anymore but you can do a wiki search on "pascal's wager" to pull up info on what it is and also why it is faulty.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it. Faith is simple. God is simple.

Let this be your friendly reminder that preaching is against HAF forum rules because we want to encourage productive discussions between members rather than just be a bulletin board for thoughts.  Rules --->  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1522 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1522)

To everyone,

While I realize the OP has posted comments which are the typical fodder of trolls; I think it's best to reserve calling someone a Troll for when it has become apparent that they are purposely baiting people just to get an emotional response out of them.  The OP may just be someone who hasn't thought about these questions yet...please keep that in mind for now till we have a better history of posts to determine if the OP cares to discuss or not.  Thanks!

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "pc4lf"You don't go to heaven if you're good. You go if you believe. Don't underestimate belief. Belief can move mountains.

I understand that only too well.  Which is why I said, "...plenty of vicious swine will be going to heaven, and plenty of fine, otherwise good people will be going to hell."

NO evidence exists that any mountain has ever been moved, certainly not by belief.  I think it's not so much that atheist underestimate belief, as it is that Christians overestimate this thing called belief.

Quote from: "Martin TK"

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "pc4lf"You don't go to heaven if you're good. You go if you believe. Don't underestimate belief. Belief can move mountains.

I understand that only too well.  Which is why I said, "...plenty of vicious swine will be going to heaven, and plenty of fine, otherwise good people will be going to hell."

NO evidence exists that any mountain has ever been moved, certainly not by belief.  I think it's not so much that atheist underestimate belief, as it is that Christians overestimate this thing called belief.

Theists don't just overestimate belief....They rely on it, depend on it.  Without it, they have nothing.  So they have to support it completely.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"That said, I don't think we've shown that there is any danger in faith itself.  A Christian can give up his faith and still be guilty of the moral relativism, evilness, and downright stupidity represented on your list.

We will have to agree to disagree here, I think there is danger in faith.
If war, disease and the persecution of scientists don't convince you I don't know what to do.
Would dropping a bible on your toe do it?

My list hasn't included guilt and the fear of hell.  
This does people a lot of damage.
In The God Delusion Dawkins talks to psychologists who compare its effect to sexual abuse.

I kind of get the feeling the Op won't be coming back anyway, but perhaps that's just me.

Quote from: "Recusant"{snip}There is no shortage of bile-spewing atheist fora around; I'd like to think that atheists who join and stay at this one do so because they prefer something different.

That's why I joined here, I'm fed up with self-satisfied atheists who see the theist before the person. I must confess it has not been easy but I'm getting better at it.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"I kind of get the feeling the Op won't be coming back anyway, but perhaps that's just me.

I think you may be right as one got the feeling of a young person testing their wings and expecting to fly in a clear blue sky while instead arriving at a wall of mostly polite and accurate ack ack fire.

Quote from: "Recusant"There are people in this world (especially younger ones, and especially in the US) who've had practically no contact with atheists.  Some of them may be curious just what type of people are they who would reject a "just and loving God."  They might even go so far as to join an atheist forum with a name that doesn't seem too threatening to satisfy their curiosity.  Such a person would be indistinguishable from pc4lf.  

If I were such a person I would have already given up on this forum.

I'd like to thank all of you who took the time to answer my questions with honest thought-out answers. I'm still looking for answers, but I hope to find some.

I was born and raised in a small town, and have not had much contact with atheists. That does not make me simple.

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'd like to thank all of you who took the time to answer my questions with honest thought-out answers. I'm still looking for answers, but I hope to find some.

I was born and raised in a small town, and have not had much contact with atheists. That does not make me simple.

No. But it might make one a little parochial. The saying the travel broadens he mind is very true, provided you engage with the locals, so have a think and come back with some more questions  

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'd like to thank all of you who took the time to answer my questions with honest thought-out answers. I'm still looking for answers, but I hope to find some.

I'm glad you're still here.

Despite your claim that god is simple, you are declaring one particular, absolute quality of god, that if he exists, he will send to Hell everyone who does not believe in him.

You also imply that this is a bad thing, which presupposes that an eternity spent with a being as evil, stupid, vitriolic, egoistic, nasty, vicious, and just plain awful as you believe him to be is something that everyone should want.

You will probably justify this based on a book that has god killing millions of people, while his adversary killed around ten.

I don't mind if you're a masochist, but I'm not a masochist.

Theists tell me god is everywhere.
Let's put it to the test.

Is he behind the door? ... No
Is he in the grandfather clock? ... No
Is he in the piano?  ...  No
Is he under the stairs?  ...  No
Is he in the wardrobe?  ...  No
Is he under the bed?  ...  No
Is he in the box?  ...  No
Is he under the rug?  ...  No

This is quite the methodical scientific approach for me.
I conclude, he is not there.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Theists tell me god is everywhere.
Let's put it to the test.

Is he behind the door? ... No
Is he in the grandfather clock? ... No
Is he in the piano?  ...  No
Is he under the stairs?  ...  No
Is he in the wardrobe?  ...  No
Is he under the bed?  ...  No
Is he in the box?  ...  No
Is he under the rug?  ...  No

This is quite the methodical scientific approach for me.
I conclude, he is not there.

Ah! But have you checked in your septic tank?!  

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'd like to thank all of you who took the time to answer my questions with honest thought-out answers. I'm still looking for answers, but I hope to find some.

I was born and raised in a small town, and have not had much contact with atheists. That does not make me simple.

First, I'm glad you came back.  Second I apologize for using the term "troll" to describe you, I never actually thought you were a "troll" I just have the habit of using the same terms as the person I'm arguing with.

Most importantly, I apologize for referring to you as "simple".  I didn't mean simple in the sense that you lack intelligence, just that you haven't fully explored your faith/religion.  I shouldn't have even made that assumption.  Again, I'm sorry.

If you haven't noticed, or been told already, there is a very knowledgeable Christian scholar that has been a recent and active member of this forum.  His handle is Jac3510.  His blog makes for interesting reading.  He is a man of faith who is quite reasonable and his knowledge of the Bible and philosophy might be  helpful to you.

As for contact with atheists, you've come to the right place.  Good luck in finding the answers you seek.

But, I will warn you... If you hang around with us Atheists too long, the Tea Party will revoke your membership... They don't take kindly to our kind, you know.

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'm new to this forum, so I have one biting question, and I think this is a great platform to ask it. I'm not prejudiced against atheists or anything, however I never understood how someone can not believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot disprove the God of the bible's existence.

How can you prove God does not exist?

I can't. But you can't prove that he does. However, just as you have your conviction that he exists nonetheless, I have my conviction that he doesn't. Call it faith if you will.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Theists tell me god is everywhere.
Let's put it to the test.

Is he behind the door? ... No
Is he in the grandfather clock? ... No
Is he in the piano?  ...  No
Is he under the stairs?  ...  No
Is he in the wardrobe?  ...  No
Is he under the bed?  ...  No
Is he in the box?  ...  No
Is he under the rug?  ...  No

This is quite the methodical scientific approach for me.
I conclude, he is not there.

Ah! But have you checked in your septic tank?!  

If he was, he'd be dead.

Quote from: "pc4lf"I'm new to this forum, so I have one biting question, and I think this is a great platform to ask it. I'm not prejudiced against atheists or anything, however I never understood how someone can not believe in God when one fundamental truth exists: you cannot disprove the God of the bible's existence.

There are several things wrong with this. Firstly, I can't disprove the existence of many things. Does that mean that I should believe in all of them? Should I believe in pixies? Fairies? Invisible dragons? Orbiting teapots?

As for the god of the bible, it's pretty trivial to demonstrate that this particular entity does not, and cannot, exist, by simple application of the law of non-contradiction:

1 John 4:8 (NLT) - "God is love." 1 Corinthians 13:4 (NLT) - "Love is not jealous." Exodus 20:5 (NLT) - "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God

Existence disproved.

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?

What if you're wrong about invisible dragons?

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what if you're wrong?? There's a 50/50 chance that you're wrong and going to hell, so why not just to sure?

Pascal's wager? Seriously? Is that the limit of your vision? Pascal knew himself that this was a terrible argument, not least because any deity given the (logically absurd) attributes cited for your particular imaginary friend would be able to see through any sort of deception. Further, we don't choose what to believe, we believe what the evidence suggests.

Finally, with regard to your woefully non-rigorous calculation of odds, it doesn't remotely hold water. In a situation where a proposition is presented with no evidential support whatsoever, such as a creator deity, and where the evidence for the converse is abundant, namely in the form of testable natural mechanisms being sufficient to account for every single natural phenomenon ever elucidated, the odss of your deity actually existing are not 50/50, nor even remotely close to it. They are vanishingly small. So close to zero, in fact, that at a first approximation the proposal is absurdly impossible.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You don't go to heaven if you're good. You go if you believe. Don't underestimate belief. Belief can move mountains.

And, of course, you have critically robust evidence to support this ex recto assertion?

Quote from: "pc4lf"But what's the problem with that? They perfectally understood that their lack of faith (like yours) could potentially land them in hell. It's their fault.

I see. So you think it perfectly reasonable that people who live good lives, giving of themselves for the betterment of society in general, should spend eternity in a magma jacuzzi, while criminals like Kent Hovind and charlatans like Henry Morris should be rewarded, just because they share you peurile masturbation fantasy, is that it?

As it happens, the concept of heaven is one of the more awful fates I can think of, as is eternity.

Quote from: "pc4lf"You guys are overthinking it.

Are we indeed? Again, care to support this assertion?

QuoteFaith is simple.

It's also entirely without utility. Limitless faith and $1 will buy you a $1 cup of coffee.

QuoteGod is simple.

Don't know about that, but it seems that many of his followers are. Not that I'm suggesting that of you, incidentally. Just a general observation. Your questions seem genuine enough.

QuoteI'd like to thank all of you who took the time to answer my questions with honest thought-out answers. I'm still looking for answers, but I hope to find some.

Then stick around. You might actually find what you're looking for.

QuoteI was born and raised in a small town, and have not had much contact with atheists. That does not make me simple.

And this shows what inculcation does to people. You're making the right steps, though. One piece of advice. Don't come with assumptions. Questions are never dumb, but assumptions almost always are.

I like this here new person I've never seen before  

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zgeek.com%2Fforum%2Fgallery%2Ffiles%2F1%2F7%2F9%2F1%2F0%2Ftroll_fail.jpg&hash=1bbfee635e71b55d6d9b6480f6296ebaa179e27b)

That's all I have to say, I'm not dealing with this illogical BS.

Quote from: "KebertX"(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zgeek.com%2Fforum%2Fgallery%2Ffiles%2F1%2F7%2F9%2F1%2F0%2Ftroll_fail.jpg&hash=1bbfee635e71b55d6d9b6480f6296ebaa179e27b)

That's all I have to say, I'm not dealing with this illogical BS.

All you have to say is... A broken image..?  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "KebertX"(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zgeek.com%2Fforum%2Fgallery%2Ffiles%2F1%2F7%2F9%2F1%2F0%2Ftroll_fail.jpg&hash=1bbfee635e71b55d6d9b6480f6296ebaa179e27b)

That's all I have to say, I'm not dealing with this illogical BS.

All you have to say is... A broken image..?  

Oh, I see it now.  It's a picture of a homeless troll.  "Unsuccessful Troll Is Unsuccessful" is the caption.

Oh, damn! The image isn't showing up.

Wow, I guess Unsuccessful Troll really is Unsuccessful...

Quote from: "KebertX"Oh, damn! The image isn't showing up.

Wow, I guess Unsuccessful Troll really is Unsuccessful...

You could have called it a Buddhist statement.  The image that is not an image.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Oh, I see it now.  It's a picture of a homeless troll.  "Unsuccessful Troll Is Unsuccessful" is the caption.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewsimg.ngfiles.com%2F117000%2F117416_76837_Unsuccessful.jpg&hash=dec4eb0e6e4fc83e0099c08ae57ba93791527dc4)'

?

OOO. If only I had seen the sock puppet sooner...

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Oh, I see it now.  It's a picture of a homeless troll.  "Unsuccessful Troll Is Unsuccessful" is the caption.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewsimg.ngfiles.com%2F117000%2F117416_76837_Unsuccessful.jpg&hash=dec4eb0e6e4fc83e0099c08ae57ba93791527dc4)'

?

Asmodean, you really don't see it? Weird

No. Your link does not show on my network, for whichever one of a million possible reasons, but MY image, it works