Happy Atheist Forum

Raised a Christian, I realized, as a mid-teen, that I did not truly have the faith necessary for being a Christian. I searched for evidence disproving God, and found plenty enough. I took comfort, knowing that I could live my life as I saw fit, and I had no-one but myself and dumb luck to blame for problems, and that there was no divine plan expected of me. I was content as a nonparticipant, and thus became something of a passing Atheist. I responded skeptically to the attempts of Christians to explain away my arguments as to why God doesn't exist, but on the whole took a very passive approach. They could believe what they wanted--it didn't affect me.

However, a long discussion this morning with an older lady who is a believer gave me pause. I debated the morality and plausibility of God to no end. After all, her eventual response was merely "who can know the ways of God?" A sissy's way out, in my opinion, but I'll consent that, should God exist, he could perfectly well be above understanding, and the world just be constructed (through what method, it doesn't matter) in such a way that the evidence we see is misleading.

What made me stop was her discussions of miracles. Now, I've long held that it doesn't matter how much evidence God has on his side--if you're truly faithful, you should be able to spit in the face of evidence and believe regardless of how things appear to be. As a skeptic, I'm normally pretty good at at least theorizing a debunking of so-called "miracles" put forth. For instance, her first claim was that she knew of an individual in a third-world country who was brought back to life after being dead for four days. Now, discounting the story being downright lies, and considering that the country in question didn't have the same education and technology as we, I would say it is more likely that he slipped into a coma, then recovered after having been mispronounced as dead. Makes sense, I thought.

Then, she started with things that were harder to refute. A story of a paster she knew who prayed over a woman who had legs of differing lengths, and, immediately after the prayer, her shorter leg lengthened to equal her other. Now that is a miracle, and I have no way of refuting it, particularly since it allegedly happened immediately after the prayer took place, as the participants looked on. Then she told another story about a friend of hers who had had a tumor or growth of some kind that bulged out of her body like a baseball, but receded within seconds after being prayed over. These stories are harder to explain away, particularly since they were based on first or second-hand witness either by her, or people she knew well and trusted.

Needless to say, being unable to refute it, I got a bit flustered and declared that I was going to look into these alleged miracles: if God exists, he has an opportunity now to show me the way, but if I'm being lied to, I will stop being a passive atheist and let Christians know that they're being blatantly used and lied to.

I let my parents know of this resolve, and they responded by recounting a few miracles of their own. While I don't always trust my parents' perceptions, since they're more than willing to make God-of-the-gaps excuses, I do earnestly trust their truthfulness. While I may hypothesize a better explanation for an event that they attribute to divine intervention, I in any case largely believe the circumstances of their anecdotes. This made it particularly tough when my mother told me of how, after having suffered an accident falling from a horse as a teenager, she had been completely deaf in one ear, and about a quarter deaf in the other for about ten years. Then, after being prayed over and anointed with oil after those ten years (after she became a Christian, since she wasn't one, at least not a faithful one, earlier on in life), a friend of hers noticed the very next day that she was able to hear her when they spoke, and she has apparently been fine since.

Then, my dad recounted a couple miracles that I actually recall. As a child, I had been far more faithful, and would oftentimes pray over my parents. In one case, my dad had fallen off a ladder and injured his neck so that he was unable to turn his head. Soon thereafter, during Sunday School, he head a loud "crack" and was suddenly able to turn his head again. After Sunday School, I hurried to him to ask whether his neck was better, and he admitted that it was. I asked if it had happened early or later on during the service, and he said it was early on, to which I replied enthusiastically that that was when I had asked our Sunday School class to pray for him. In another incident, he had had his left pinkie fingernail torn out by the root and the doctor claimed it would never grow back, but after I had prayed for it, sure enough, it grew back (not instantly, mind, but it was prayed for and then grew back).

Now, I faintly recall the stories told by my father, since they involved me and I was aware of what happened, although I am fully aware that my true recollections may have been colored by his recounting the story a number of times as I grew up (altering my memories to exaggerate the miraculousness of the events). As an Atheist, I had always just shrugged them both off as coincidence, although having the nail grow back after a doctor's assurance that it wouldn't is noteworthy, as is having the crick in his neck vanish at approximately the same time I was praying for it. I have no explanation at all to account for my mother's partial deafness vanishing after ten years a mere day after having it prayed for.

Between those stories and a bit of research which yielded this article (http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/01/do_miracles_happen_today.html) concerning reported miracles, I felt it necessary to get some input, because I'm stumped. Honestly, I'd rather believe that there is no God, and that all the religious folks are simply gullible and/or ignorant, and I am fully aware of what evidence exists to seemingly disprove God (the Christian God, mind), so there is no need to try to sway me with that. My conundrum is simply that, if there is evidence that miracles do happen from prayer, it would be close-minded and foolish of me not to then appropriately change my belief system to support the fact that there is clearly some divine intervention, or even that humans somehow are able to alter the fabric of reality with their minds through faith or something, as ridiculous as that all sounds. Again, I'm aware of studies that have shown no statistical evidence supporting the claim that faith heals (as in a certain study done, and articles concerning it (http://www.sram.org/0802/faith-healing.html)), but if such astounding and inexplicable miracles do occur, particularly as frequently as they sound like, it would be close-minded and foolish of me to entirely discount them, just because the majority of miracle claims are fraudulent.

So, with that said, please, lend me your insight.

Hello Dispirited! Welcome to the forum.

QuoteIn another incident, he had had his left pinkie fingernail torn out by the root and the doctor claimed it would never grow back, but after I had prayed for it, sure enough, it grew back (not instantly, mind, but it was prayed for and then grew back).

I completely lost a fingernail on the ring finger of my left hand when it was run over by a skater. I don't recall how long it took to grow back but I never went to a doctor about it. I'm no doctor but I think finger nails usually grow back... don't they?  ;)

One other thought: why would answered prayers prove the existence of Yahweh? After all so many people of other faiths claim miracles in their favor too.

Thanks for the response.

His fingernail was pulled out by the root, and so supposedly shouldn't have grown back. Tearing off the nail and ripping out the parts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingernails#Parts_of_the_nail) that grow the nail aren't quite the same.

The only reason to attribute truth to Yahweh is due to the strength of these alleged miracles. Growing out a limb within seconds after having asked the Christian God for assistance seems to support that particularly deity's existence (if not, as I said, some miraculous healing power of the human mind that faith just manages to utilize, although this "magic" explanation sounds a lot more unfamiliar, and thus far-fetched), or in any case, some attentive deity's existence, whether Yahweh is the correct one being invoked, or the deity that responds isn't particularly picky about who the faithful think they're asking for help.

Fiddle Faddle.  As soon as prayer is subjected to a randomized controlled study it fails.

QuoteStudy of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer
http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS00 ... t1=no&vol= (http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS0002870305006496/abstract?browse_volume=151&issue_key=TOC%40%40JOURNALSNOSUPP%40YMHJ%400151%400004&issue_preview=no&select1=no&select1=no&vol=)

You have been subjected to unsupported mythmaking and story telling. If your "god" heals then why doesn't it heal amputees?

Not that I'm saying you are but you come off as a Christian with a message who is pretending to be an atheist to get his message through.  I say this because you describe yourself and your experience exactly as many Christians portray atheists and unlike any atheist I've ever known.  

So you haven't actually seen any of these "miracles" or even seen video of them?  The answer is that people see what they want to believe.  

Second and third-hand accounts really aren't evidence at all.  I'm not saying that the people involved are lying but stories have a way of growing from teller to teller because they hear what they expect or want to, not what is actually said.  

People want to believe in miracles because there's the strong possibility of getting caught in an unpleasant and un-fixable situation.  They want a way out of these situations that have no way out so they convince themselves that there are ways out.    

The "miracles" you are talking about wouldn't be considered as evidence in a court of law.  Even eyewitness testimony is taken with a grain of salt, even if the witness is well respected, simply because the mind plays tricks.  The mind fills in details to make what was heard, felt, or seen fit what we expect or hope for or fear.

I'd like to think that, not, but it's hard to refute some of those claims. Did you see the links I posted?

It frankly doesn't matter why it doesn't work in all cases where we think it should, or that it doesn't work all the time. If miracles happen, for real, in a way that can't be disproved with a scientific explanation, wouldn't it be foolish to ignore that entirely?

Think of it like lightening. A lot of people fear being hit and killed by lightening, but it only actually kills about 60 Americans annually. Little Johnny running out in the field flying a kite may not be hit, even though he's trying his hardest. Does this prove that lightening doesn't strike people? No, it just proves that lightening strikes, while they happen infrequently, cannot be predicted to happen on demand, even at times when it may seem like they should.

EDIT: Thanks, Kly, but I'm aware of that. My biggest concern is with those documented miracles in that link I posted and the first-hand "miracles" of my parents. Suddenly regaining one's hearing after ten years of being near-deaf the night after being prayed for is enough to make me sit up and wonder.

Also, as I said, three of the miracles are from first-hand witnesses--my parents, and I even recall two of them occurring. Sure, the neck getting better at about the same time as prayer is offered could be just coincidence, and maybe the doctor was mistaken about the whole nail root being pulled out, but what about a ten-year streak of near-deafness being healed overnight after prayer is offered?

I'm not trying to claim that prayer always heals, or even that it often heals. I'm trying to follow any evidence to see if it can ever heal. If it can, that suggests that there's something at work, even if that something is highly unpredictable, does it not?

"Assertions advanced without evidence may be disposed of without evidence." -- Chris Hitchens

Also, I agree with Kyly.  This thread reeks of concern troll. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)#Concern_troll)

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Also, I agree with Kyly.  This thread reeks of concern troll. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)#Concern_troll)

If that were the case, I'd think that I would offer more concern and less double-edged skepticism.

In any case, I appreciate the input for y'all. Just consider it a moment of having my faith shaken. The guys at Rational Skepticism (http://www.rationalskepticism.org/new-members/dispirited-disbelief-t11158.html) assisted a great deal with their input as well. What I was really looking for was reassurances that the aforementioned miracles aren't as big of deals as they appear to be and are frequently falsified (as opposed to the more commonly-heard "I prayed for it to rain" types of miracles).

A skeptic seeking reassurance.  I like that.

Quote from: "Dispirited"However, a long discussion this morning with an older lady who is a believer gave me pause. I debated the morality and plausibility of God to no end. After all, her eventual response was merely "who can know the ways of God?" A sissy's way out, in my opinion, but I'll consent that, should God exist, he could perfectly well be above understanding, and the world just be constructed (through what method, it doesn't matter) in such a way that the evidence we see is misleading.

Bold added is mine.

My answer to this claim along the lines of "God's ways are higher than man's" and that there may be evidence of his/its existence but it is misleading is always: "Why the trickery? Why the deception?" If someone cannot reasonably answer that, then unfortunately I don't believe they can properly speak of the way's of god, including miracles.

Prayer works at about the same rate that it doesn't work.

[youtube:119g3tdy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o[/youtube:119g3tdy]

I think that covers all that needs to be said.  I can't help but think: If you buy into the whole prayer/miracle/faith healing thing, you can't be a very good skeptic.  Who cares about individual anecdotes? "Oh I twisted my ankle and then it stopped hurting... It must be because I emailed my thoughts to the skyman, and he made it better!"  So if God is out there, answering prayers, Why doesn't God heal amputees?  This guy can eradicate cancer from a person's body, I'm pretty sure he could regrow a limb. I'm sure thousands, if not millions of amputees have prayed to grow their lost limbs back, so why hasn't God cured even one of them?

OP, you don't sound like an atheist. You sound like a Christian stereotype of an atheist. I'm tempted to call tollin' on this post, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

It's unfortunate that you missed my point, Ker. I call myself a "skeptic," because I try to find reasonable answers for things, rather than taking the more obvious first answer (at least as far as religion is concerned). I created this thread for the sake of those anecdotes that I couldn't rationalize from people whom I trusted. I'm merely proposing that, if it can be shown that the occasional stupendous miracle does occur, it would be irrational to dismiss it entirely simply because it diverges from one's preferred beliefs. I'm here looking for a reasonable reason to disbelieve in those alleged miracles, so I don't have to just pull the same "that's not what I believe" retort that Christians use.

I prefer longer novels.  Have you thought of writing one?

:brick:   Do you actually believe everything you hear?  

And for what it's worth hubby (deekayfry) regrew his thumbnail after the ER yanked it out and told me it may or may not regrow, I doubt he remembers that part as they had him all morphined up.  But it regrew, miracle?  Nope, it was the luck of the draw.  I put a box staple through the nail bed of my thumb and crushed the entire nail bed with the anvil head of the machine at the same time.  This usually causes severe malformation of the future nail growth.  Is my thumbnail currently deformed by that accident?  Nope.  Miracle?  Well, at first I really didn't think it would ever grow back in straight, without ripples or a massive ridge, but, it's fine now, only took 6 years.  So no miracle.  Just the amazing capacity of the human body to fix itself.

Leg growing after prayer?  Oh, come on!  I can rotate my leg bones just right and gain an inch in height.  Ask hubby, he's seen me do it.  No miracle.

Deafness can be caused by a number of things including wax build up that can spontaneously melt or fall out/dislodge in one large chunk, sinus drainage that can move all of a sudden, infection that can drain, etc and so on.  Really I can go on and on, I grew up and live with deaf people.  So nope, not buying it.

Cancer can go away on it's own, another example of the amazing human body able to heal itself.  Not to mention meds that can be used to shrink tumors.

And all this crap about no cameras?  Well, there's your answer.

I guess I still don't understand how your skepticism has been shaken.  If all at takes is some unsupported stories and online editorials filled with similar unsupported evidence to shake your skepticism, I would argue you were never really a skeptic in the first place.  I'm not trying to insult you, but I don't see how a skeptic could be confronted with what is pretty standard banal stories and consider them as if they're evidence of anything beyond the ability of the human imagination.  Why are these stories compelling?  What makes you think your memory from when you were a kid is in any way reliable?  

From what I've read, memories are generally extrememly unreliable when it comes to a factual recollection of events. (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2193/study-shows-memory-surprisingly-unreliable)  In fact, people are known to regularly but unknowingly make things up when they recall memories, but have absolutely no idea they made anything up and at times will argue their memories as fact very passionately.  That's why it's important for a skeptic to try to set aside emotions, including how earnest someone seems or how honest you feel they are, when it comes to some situations because your parents don't have to be willfully lying to not be telling the truth.  Just like you don't have to be aware of remembering things that didn't happen in order to remember them as clearly.  This is one of the reasons that more and more, eyewitness testimony is considered unreliable in court cases. (http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/eyewitnessmemory.html)

Also, when thinking about the concept of being open vs. closed-minded, I often reference this wonderful video by Qualiasoup,  It does a great job in explaining why open-mindedness does NOT require us to consider ridiculous or nearly impossible possibilities as if they might be true:

[youtube:1o6stg5b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI[/youtube:1o6stg5b]

Hope that helps!

I appreciate the responses, thank you. I believe I've had enough.

Quote from: "Dispirited"I appreciate the responses, thank you. I believe I've had enough.

I hope you'll consider watching that video.  It's very clear and well put.  Regardless, good luck!

I did, and many more. Very interesting, indeed.

I merely think that my position has been either misrepresented by myself or misinterpreted by others and am growing tired of being scolded for a problem that I don't have. Consider it a very long bout of "there AREN'T any cases of pigs actually flying, right? Yeah, didn't think so."

Quote from: "Dispirited"I did, and many more. Very interesting, indeed.

I merely think that my position has been either misrepresented by myself or misinterpreted by others and am growing tired of being scolded for a problem that I don't have. Consider it a very long bout of "there AREN'T any cases of pigs actually flying, right? Yeah, didn't think so."

I gotcha, that can be very annoying and tiring.  I hope you decide to stick around regardless - this place is really good about disagreeing without getting nasty, which is what I enjoy.

Quote from: "Dispirited"I appreciate the responses, thank you. I believe I've had enough.

Quote from: "Dispirited"I merely think that my position has been either misrepresented by myself or misinterpreted by others and am growing tired of being scolded for a problem that I don't have. Consider it a very long bout of "there AREN'T any cases of pigs actually flying, right? Yeah, didn't think so."

Ahem, you asked for insight....

Quote from: "Dispirited"...... So, with that said, please, lend me your insight.

I'll leave it at that, though the idea that we are scolding you because several of us are pointing out the unbelievable quality of these so called miracles is kinda funny, especially if there have been plausible explanations given.

As a former Christian myself, I understand how hard it can be to give up the "good stuff," i.e. the miracles.  But for me, it boils down to what it would mean if the examples you gave truly were miracles.  

To explain, I don't understand a god who answers a prayer about a toenail but ignores thousands of believers who pray for food, clothes, medicine, safety around the world.  So if god performs some miracles--answers some prayers but ignores others--what's the point of praying?  God is going to do what god is going to do.  

Prayer became one of the main reasons I stopped trying to be a Christian.  It's no win.  If god answers prayers, then "His Will" can be changed by the wants of individuals, so there's no larger plan to understand.  So it's a wishy-washy god who plays favorites.  But if god doesn't answer prayers, then he really doesn't care about the day to day struggles on a person, get-involved level.  Either way, I don't see much point in prayer.  It's still a crap shoot.

 Also, the idea of miracles begs the question of what becomes the tipping point for prayer?  What makes god listen to someone?  How faithful they are?  How earnestly they pray?  That's nonsense because of all the people I know who have lost children or others they loved but prayed desperately for their healing.  Or take my former boss, for instance.  Her daughter was born with a rare chromosomal disorder.  This woman is a fundamentalist all the way and prays all the time.  She has been holding prayer circles and has had the healing of her daughter on her church prayer list for 9 years.  No change.  This is a person who tithes and does all the "right" things by the church.  Where is her miracle?

In short, perhaps if you stopped trying to explain the miracles via god or answered prayers and considered the implications of them being god-answered miracles, you'll reach a different conclusion.

Hope I've helped and at least made some sense.  Welcome to the forum.

Why won’t you cynics accept the miracle of the regrown fingernail?
I think a fingernail world tour should be arranged to restore faith to the doubters.

I despair at this lack of faith.
If only there had been more faith when Dispirited's poor mother was young.
She wouldn't have had to wait ten years for someone to prey and heal her hearing.

This link has a light and easy look at chance by the Raidolab people.
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/ ... 6_1205.mp3 (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2010/06/ssw_20100626_1205.mp3)

I have lost three fingernails and have co-workers who experienced the same thing of which I physically saw first hand.  All of mine grew back without any outside influence.  Same with my co-workers.

Yeah, and you really don't wanna know how he lost them   Or the toenail.......

I suffered 2° burns over 30% of my face, and twenty+ years later, have no scars.

All credit belongs to the Goddess Aloe.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Not that I'm saying you are but you come off as a Christian with a message who is pretending to be an atheist to get his message through.  I say this because you describe yourself and your experience exactly as many Christians portray atheists and unlike any atheist I've ever known.  

So you haven't actually seen any of these "miracles" or even seen video of them?  The answer is that people see what they want to believe.  

Second and third-hand accounts really aren't evidence at all.  I'm not saying that the people involved are lying but stories have a way of growing from teller to teller because they hear what they expect or want to, not what is actually said.  

People want to believe in miracles because there's the strong possibility of getting caught in an unpleasant and un-fixable situation.  They want a way out of these situations that have no way out so they convince themselves that there are ways out.    

The "miracles" you are talking about wouldn't be considered as evidence in a court of law.  Even eyewitness testimony is taken with a grain of salt, even if the witness is well respected, simply because the mind plays tricks.  The mind fills in details to make what was heard, felt, or seen fit what we expect or hope for or fear.

All your points are exactly the ones I was thinking including the how the poster seems like a parady.

Well he's gone off to RatSkeps and is as happy as a pig in poo over there.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I suffered 2° burns over 30% of my face, and twenty+ years later, have no scars.

All credit belongs to the Goddess Aloe.

I survived a beat down and pistol whipping that caused a skull fracture, broken ribs, broken collarbone, internal bleeding and an eight or nine day coma.  I'm at least somewhat fucked up because of it but nine out of ten Christians tell me it was a miracle I survived.  I disagree.  It was through the kindness of the unknown homeless person who called the ambulance and through the skill and hard work of the EMTs and the hospital staff and surgeons who did their best to keep me alive that I survived, not due to a miracle.  All credit belongs to people who helped.

And the fingernail thing - I have two thumbnails that I lost in a very unpleasant manner.  They are lumpy and break off once they grow past the tip of my thumbs but they grew back after getting pulled out.

Quote from: "Tank"Well he's gone off to RatSkeps and is as happy as a pig in poo over there.

Is he really a skeptic then or is he some stealth troll as was suspected?  I can't imagine they reacted to this post any gentler than we did - IF he posted his over there as well.

He did post over there, I suggested it    Nobody called him on being a concern troll, yet.

Maybe we are accepting the argument that is convoluted. It seems that Dispirited isn't skeptical with the idea of miracles existing.  Rather he or she is skeptical as to the idea that miracles don't exist.  In other words, the skeptic is skeptical about a world that functions on physics, biology, and chemistry rather than on the divine intervention.

Either way, it made for an bass ackwards, interesting and head scratching funny read...  

This is a video that shares my concept of what skepticism is.

It seems that dispirited is using the term as just not trusting a thing, however that is my assumption.

[youtube:39h2svww]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZBlMwFnPns[/youtube:39h2svww]

My brother would get really bad ingrown toenails, and finally had them surgically removed. It was done in such a way that they toenails wouldn't ever grow back. But eventually they did grow back. Now I know he didn't pray for it to grow back, because in fact, didn't want them to grow back. Bottom line, it was just a coincidence.

And people that tell me they witness miracles, you have to brush off as either they are delusional, lying for attention, or probably more plausible, they don't know enough about what they saw/experienced and passed it off as a miracle. My mom claims she was visited by dead relatives and was told that my dad would die before a certain day. I am pretty sure it is either she was dreaming, wants attention, or wanted it to be true so much she imagined it. But either way, it is now 9 months after that day and my dad is alive and well.

There are perfectly reputable people that claim to have been abducted by aliens, have seen bigfoot, the vigin mary, ghosts, ufo's, Loch Ness Monster, chupacabra, yeti, think psychics are real or astrology, have seen jesus, god, miracles, etc.  You just can't trust what people say they saw, or especially when they know someone who saw something.

And if god really could heal people that prayed or bring people back to life, shouldn't the lifespan for religious people be very much higher than the lifespan of atheists? Because when the atheist became sick, or injured and didn't pray, they would die, while the religious would pray and be healed and go on living? But doing a lot of studying on the matter, all the statistics pointed to either same lifespan, or maybe 1-2 years in favor of the religious (which I think the number is higher either because of some religions strict lifestyles i.e. not eating certain meats, or not smoking or drinking in some religions, or it is higher because someone very sick can't go to church often, and in the studies aren't counted among the religious).