Happy Atheist Forum

So I just starting seeing this woman and on the surface we get along great and she's everything I want in a girlfriend and potential long term partner/wife.  For the day to day things we get along great (sharing cooking/cleaning responsibilities, deciding activities to do, etc).  We're extremely attracted to each other on a physical and emotional level.  The problem that has been on my mind for the last couple days is that she is religious and I'm trying to decide if I can live with that.  I am pretty liberal and would classify myself as a free-thinker verging on atheism.  I don't believe there is a God and I don't need the bible to give me a set of morals in which to live my life.  My parents were very liberal and atheist and I think I turned out just fine, obviously enough to attract and keep happy someone who grew up religious and conservative.  She hasn't been vocal about her faith or the fact that she's conservative but has mentioned that it bothered her that her previous boyfriend didn't get involved politically or at least didn't keep up to date on the issues.  I just foresee problems down the road, especially in election years.  Also I worry about how my parents will accept her and how I will be received by her parents.  And probably the most important issue, I need to decide if I have any loss of respect for her because she believes in God and if I can live with that.  I can tell you right now I'm having a really hard time with it.  I have plenty of friends with mixed beliefs and political opinions, I think that's really important to be well rounded as long as they're not ignorant and they are able to justify they're beliefs I have no problem being around them.  But I just don't know if I can spend the rest of my life with someone knowing that we differ so greatly on our religious and political views, even if we don't vocalize them.  Anyone out there been/are in this situation and have any perspective to share with me?

The issue of 'mixed marriages' crops up here quite a lot. The basic answer appears to be, does your collective desire to be a couple out weigh your individual desire to convert the other to your religious/areligious world view? If the collective desire is strong enough then you won't have a serious problem. If on the other hand one of the couple seriously can't cope with the other's world view then you may have a long term issue. Families are mostly irrelevant, that's what front doors are for, once you're together you are your own family and that's what counts in any long term relationship. Undoubtedly a 'mixed marriage' does add to the potential areas of conflict but it is not a relationship killer unless one partner makes it so.

All successful relationships accommodate differences, really successful ones often encourage them. While my wife and I are both atheists we are in other respects like chalk and cheese, she is reserved, I'm very outgoing, she takes a long time to trust people, I am way too trusting for my own good, she is a highly cerebral academic type, I'm a hands on 'learn by doing' sort. As such we compliment each other and have very heated debates about all kinds of subjects.

I asked my wife to marry me because I could never envision a day when I didn't want her to be by my side, that was 30 years ago and I was not wrong.  

Oh and welcome aboard!

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My son's mother was Catholic, and largely apolitical, when we met.  I'd been an atheist for twelve years at that time, and I've always been the wonkish sort.  Our relationship failed (after 6 years), but not over religion or politics, because we agreed to disagree on those issues.  We also agreed that our son would discover his own beliefs, and not have them hammered into shape by either of us.

Just because she's religious doesn't mean she's unworthy of respect; if you think that's the case, do not extend the relationship.  Also, so far as different views in a relationship are concerned, permit this quote from a favorite song of mine:

Quote from: "Neil Peart"Just between us, I think it's time to recognize
the differences we sometimes fear to show.
Just between us, I think it's time we realized:
the spaces in between leave room for you and I to grow

Good luck!

At a certain point you have to stop looking at her religious and political views and just see her for who she is.  If she's intelligent, then I don't think contrasting views will be a problem (This is assuming that you're intelligent. I tend to stereotype atheists as smarter people, No offense ). Frankly, conversation is boring when there's no disagreement. You just need to know when intelligent discussion crosses the line into a fight.

Quote from: "cstam"So I just starting seeing this woman and on the surface we get along great and she's everything I want in a girlfriend and potential long term partner/wife. For the day to day things we get along great (sharing cooking/cleaning responsibilities, deciding activities to do, etc). We're extremely attracted to each other on a physical and emotional level.

I had a Muslim girlfriend a while back. It didn't matter that our religions were different, because we were happy when we were together. That's the bottom line. Even when we were talking about the big things, like the nature of the universe, we easily disagreed, and it didn't make anyone unhappy. If a pair of people are really right for each other, I think, it would be like that automatically. When you're just happy being together, you don't have to disagree just because you don't agree.

I think you'll find that there are a lot of really intelligent conversations for an atheist to have on the subject of God.  You just have to respect each other.  That's the other bottom line. Everyone's life is different, but as a general rule, I think religion is a bad place to start your judgment of someone.  Only you can determine whether you have respect for someone. Love is not about attachment, it's about altruism.

~

Quote from: "cstam"Also I worry about how my parents will accept her and how I will be received by her parents.

So you're parents might not accept her because her views on religion are different than their own? Lol, sounds like something theists would do...

I'm an atheist and every woman I have ever dated was religious.  Some didn't go to church but they prayed over every meal and spoke of the goodness of Christ, others went to church weekly.  As long as I refrained from making funny faces when they prayed everything was fine.  As for families, most people just want their loved ones to be with somebody who is good to them and makes them happy. Just show them you are such a person.  A fellow atheist once told me "don't let the Easter Bunny keep you from your love".  

Dating an theist is easy if you both really care for each other.

Quote from: "cstam"She hasn't been vocal about her faith or the fact that she's conservative but has mentioned that it bothered her that her previous boyfriend didn't get involved politically or at least didn't keep up to date on the issues.

How would you feel if she wanted you to go to an anti marriage equality rally or a pro-life rally?  

I did the mixed marriage thing.  It ended pretty badly.  For the first year or two you may think a partner having opposing views on almost everything is a minor issue but in my experience it came out in every unrelated fight or argument.  It even came out when we were discussing whether to get a sofa bed or a futon.  If I disagreed it was because I have no morals because I think human beings are just sacks of meat without an afterlife to punish or reward them.  We stayed together for eleven years.  He pulled out the "you're an atheist so you don't know any better" card on a regular basis from the third year on, increasing in frequency as time went by.  

He defused my arguments of reason by suggesting that I'm too stupid to know what I'm talking about.  He made a point of asking a man (any man would do) for a second opinion if I said something, even to the level of whether or not the dogs needed a flea collar or if deli meat was still good after two weeks in the fridge.  He isolated me from people with differing opinions to the point I thought I was stupid, too.  His family couldn't know about my lack of religious fundamentalism either.   He forbade me to do things that offended him - meaning I was not allowed to mention, talk about, or post to the internet anything in regard to religion or atheism (or sex or sexuality).  This all happened in increments so tiny I barely noticed it until I could barely breathe without his permission.  

We can't even talk for five minutes now without him bringing up the atheist thing.   I'd love to have him in my life because, well, I still love him but he hates too many things about me.  In my opinion, it's a very short step from hating something a person is or believes to hating that person.  I thought love would conquer all but I was wrong.

Believing things so diametrically opposed is likely to be a relationship killer eventually.

Oh, wait, I forgot about the advice part.

Talk to her.  Find out if she'd be comfortable raising children without religion or even raising them around someone who isn't religious.  Find out how she feels about your views on same sex marriage, abortion, education, politics.  It's easy to get along on a superficial level, like when working together but if you plan to spend a lifetime, including child-rearing with a person, I think it's vital to discuss your differences.

Others may disagree but I don't think that it's possible to have a deep and meaningful relationship with someone who finds your views and operating morality to be repulsive or whose views and operating morality you find to be repulsive.  For example, I could never even date someone who was bigoted against homosexuals or people of other races or religions.  I find those views too repulsive to live with on a long-term basis.  And I also couldn't have any long-term relationship with someone who found aspects of my self repulsive (i.e. that I'm bisexual, atheist, and liberal) to any degree.

Non-fundamentalist theists are a different story.  If a person doesn't hate anything about me and I don't hate anything about them, then there's plenty to work with.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "cstam"She hasn't been vocal about her faith or the fact that she's conservative but has mentioned that it bothered her that her previous boyfriend didn't get involved politically or at least didn't keep up to date on the issues.

How would you feel if she wanted you to go to an anti marriage equality rally or a pro-life rally?  

I did the mixed marriage thing.  It ended pretty badly.  For the first year or two you may think a partner having opposing views on almost everything is a minor issue but in my experience it came out in every unrelated fight or argument.  It even came out when we were discussing whether to get a sofa bed or a futon.  If I disagreed it was because I have no morals because I think human beings are just sacks of meat without an afterlife to punish or reward them.  We stayed together for eleven years.  He pulled out the "you're an atheist so you don't know any better" card on a regular basis from the third year on, increasing in frequency as time went by.  

He defused my arguments of reason by suggesting that I'm too stupid to know what I'm talking about.  He made a point of asking a man (any man would do) for a second opinion if I said something, even to the level of whether or not the dogs needed a flea collar or if deli meat was still good after two weeks in the fridge.  He isolated me from people with differing opinions to the point I thought I was stupid, too.  His family couldn't know about my lack of religious fundamentalism either.   He forbade me to do things that offended him - meaning I was not allowed to mention, talk about, or post to the internet anything in regard to religion or atheism (or sex or sexuality).  This all happened in increments so tiny I barely noticed it until I could barely breathe without his permission.  

We can't even talk for five minutes now without him bringing up the atheist thing.   I'd love to have him in my life because, well, I still love him but he hates too many things about me.  In my opinion, it's a very short step from hating something a person is or believes to hating that person.  I thought love would conquer all but I was wrong.

Believing things so diametrically opposed is likely to be a relationship killer eventually.

Sorry you had such a hard time.  Stuff like this bugs me because ultimately the theist is actually right.  I sure hope you are wrong about that last sentence though.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Stuff like this bugs me because ultimately the theist is actually right.  I sure hope you are wrong about that last sentence though.

How is the theist ultimately right?

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Stuff like this bugs me because ultimately the theist is actually right.  I sure hope you are wrong about that last sentence though.

How is the theist ultimately right?

Sorry, I meant the atheist is right.  As in the burden of proof lies with the theist, not the atheist.  Sometimes theists look at us like we are in some new aged cult, instead of people taking the logical default position.  You should never have to defend yourself for a lack of belief in something unproven.  I know otherwise good people who have said things like "I could never trust an atheist", or "I would never let an atheist raise my child".  However, if you were to make the assumption that because he is a theist, his rational reasoning skills might need to be questioned, you'd be a jerk.  

I think it can work only if there is the concession on the part of the theist that his is not a rational view.  Something like "it may or may not be true, but my faith gets me through the day".   If they are actively trying to convert you, expecting you to eventually "see the light", or forcing you to hide who you are, then it isn't worth it.

Thank you for all the replies, after reading that there have been plenty of you out there who have made it work it gives me hope.  I certainly do respect her political and religious views and we agreed to disagree.  I haven't had a debate with her yet, so I'm a little apprehensive right now, but I know she's not extreme in her views and we have the same beliefs on abortion and healthcare and other issues that are important to me so I don't think it'll be so bad.  We'll just have to take it one step at a time, I'm just glad it's not an election year, otherwise we probably would have annoyed each other too much to form the connection that we have.  I have plenty of friends that have my same political and religious (or lack thereof) beliefs that I can discuss things with when I need a sounding board.  We're both in our mid twenties and have been in long term relationships before, so talking about our future and involving kids isn't that scary of a topic.  I just need to make sure she's ok with letting them make up their own mind and not pressing her beliefs on them.  She hasn't tried to do that to me at all, and isn't put off by that fact that I'm not religious so I'm hoping that conversation goes well too.  You've all given me good things to think about/bring up with her that have eased a lot of my worries.  I'm happy I found this forum I know I'll be back often and get involved.
Thanks again.

Glad to have been of one of the helpers. Why not invite her here and/or show her the replies as an ice breaker to the subject?

Also, if I can tender one more bit:  don't debate the issue.

I quit it 2 years ago,

I can only date other atheists.  and I don't have anything against other races or anything, but by only dating atheist. I can't have my black women anymore.

they're allllllllllll christians. and i'm in the south so it's "those" christians ya know?

Quote from: "TheWilliam"I quit it 2 years ago,

I can only date other atheists.

Word.  

I have religious friends ad if they ever mention god/religion I find myself grinding my teeth. I cant imagine being with one all day long

An ex girlfriend of mine became religious during our relationship.  It ended, badly, three months later.  Maybe this was only my experience, but I'm not sure how any atheist/religiot relationship can work.

I will forever heed the warning of Marge Simpson to Homer in the Simpsons season 4 episode 3 (Homer the Heritic).

QuoteDon't try to come between my God and my man because you just can't win!

My wife is a deist.  We have an agreement not to hold each others beliefs against them.

Quote from: TheWilliam on September 19, 2010, 01:06:04 PM
I quit it 2 years ago,

I can only date other atheists.  and I don't have anything against other races or anything, but by only dating atheist. I can't have my black women anymore.

they're allllllllllll christians. and i'm in the south so it's "those" christians ya know?

Try dating a northern city girl. I know I can vouch for us when I say we will blow your mind. Most of my family is from the south so I know exactly what you mean when you say "those" Christians.  But don't fret, you can still have your black women, you just have to know where to find them.

If I dated a lady and leared she was religious, this would be a dealbreaker.

Quote from: unholy1971 on December 19, 2011, 04:22:23 AM
If I dated a lady and leared she was religious, this would be a dealbreaker.

Same here. There's just no way I can deal with that crap.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 25, 2011, 06:13:20 AM

Quote from: unholy1971 on December 19, 2011, 04:22:23 AM
If I dated a lady and leared she was religious, this would be a dealbreaker.

Same here. There's just no way I can deal with that crap.

My girlfriend is religious, in a fairly liberal way.  It's not a problem.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 25, 2011, 08:04:19 AM

Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 25, 2011, 06:13:20 AM

Quote from: unholy1971 on December 19, 2011, 04:22:23 AM
If I dated a lady and leared she was religious, this would be a dealbreaker.

Same here. There's just no way I can deal with that crap.

My girlfriend is religious, in a fairly liberal way.  It's not a problem.

How do you  deal with it? o_o

Quote from: TheWilliam on September 19, 2010, 01:06:04 PM
...by only dating atheist. I can't have my black women anymore.

they're allllllllllll christians. and i'm in the south so it's "those" christians ya know?

No they're not. I was looking through the freedom from religion banners and there were a lot of black women (and men) in there. You might just have to move out of the south. ;)

As for the OP ... definately talk about all the difficult issues first. I know that I couldn't marry a man who'd vote for Sarah Palin or one of her ilk. Someone that radically to the right would drive me stark raving mad.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 25, 2011, 02:02:04 PM

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 25, 2011, 08:04:19 AM

Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 25, 2011, 06:13:20 AM

Quote from: unholy1971 on December 19, 2011, 04:22:23 AM
If I dated a lady and leared she was religious, this would be a dealbreaker.

Same here. There's just no way I can deal with that crap.

My girlfriend is religious, in a fairly liberal way.  It's not a problem.

How do you  deal with it? o_o

Not really anything to deal with.  She doesn't care that I don't believe in a personal god and I don't care that she does -- it gives her comfort and doesn't make her do anything terrible so it's fine with me.  I like getting her take on religious issues, or issues that have a religious side, such as forgiveness, and she loves hearing about this forum.  Other than that, the subject of religion doesn't come up much between us.

I was still religious-ish when I first met my husband. Actually, he was the first openly atheist person that I'd ever met in real life. When he told me he was an atheist, my first response was "But you're so nice!" ( totally cringe-worthy, right?).

But he was willing to give me the benefit of the doubt, and never really pushed the issue. After going through university and continuing to use my brain, I came around, eventually, on my own.

So never say never  ;)

I would find it strange and likely start many arguments or heated discussions but never an impossibility.

I have two friends that are religious the rest either couldn't give a damn or are atheist, one of my closets friends is religious and we are close enough to ridicule each others beliefs without it being a problem, its actually fun due to the uniqueness of his beliefs as he comes from a very different background faith wise (his dad Rastafarian, mum Wicca, step dad staunch Christian from a Muslim upbringing) to most people I have met, but at least he admits that it is his own made-up beliefs and he doesn't mind them being ridiculed, that type of religious I can easily cope with.

I have met many a girl that claim that they are very *insert random faith* and that they live their life by those teachings, then a few hours later or have previously done something with myself or friends of mine that is not according to that religion, with the catholic ones insisting on using something that is against their churches beliefs. Sometimes it just seems like it is something people want to be associated with but don't actually practice any of the preachings.

Quote from: cstam on August 09, 2010, 01:31:59 PM
I just foresee problems down the road, especially in election years.

Also I worry about how my parents will accept her and how I will be received by her parents

And probably the most important issue, I need to decide if I have any loss of respect for her because she believes in God and if I can live with that

My wife and myself haven't voted for the same party as each other since we got together. It is a non issue for us. Although we both tend toward the right, capitalism rather than socialism. We respect each other's opinions and each other. We have lived different lives and hence are different people with different opinions. Together we make a great team.

Her parents are Chinese, they speak Cantonese most of the time, rarely choosing to speak English, so I hardly have a relationship with them. Open communication is important to them and their relationship with their daughter, trying to navigate through English is too hard and impedes this relationship. Although I get bored on our visits, I don't feel it is my place to change them or impede their family relationships.
She doesn't get on well with my parents, this causes many issues, much high tension and the odd emotionally charged explosive argument. I am stuck in the middle, it is hard to convince her to let my parents visit to see us and our children, it is extremely hard to convince her to visit my parents. She is making an effort but it it emotionally difficult for her.
But we don't live with her or my parents, we visit them once in a while, we live our own lives and love each other very much, we don't expect the in-laws to be our friends, they are the support group of our partners.

There are many reasons why a person believes in god/s. This is not a reflection on their intelligence, they could have been indoctrinated from an early age or have some emotional history that has lead them down this path. For the most part Atheists and Theists are similar, most of us don't go around stealing, murdering, raping or pillaging. My wife has some quirks and no doubt so do I, these should provide some amusement rather than irreconcilable differences.

I would see the biggest risks are if she tries to evangalise you and if she tries to indoctrinate your children at an age before they are capable of deciding for themselves what is true of false. If I were in this situation I would discuss and agree on this before marrying a woman.

I *think* I could date someone who was a theist as long as they were respectful and didn't try to push me towards religion.  I would not worry about what my parents thought, as I would expect them to accept anyone that I cared about.

My husband could NOT date a theist.  He just couldn't.  He gets too "eye-roll-y" about any sort of religious talk - it would drive him nuts.

So I guess my answer is, it depends on your personality, and also how important the relationship is to you, and whether you can both be respectful of each other.

Peaceful Coexistence is good.

Quote from: Wessik on January 19, 2012, 07:38:50 PM
Peaceful Coexistence is good.

Care to elaborate?

I think it depends on how much they respect your beliefs. If she does, and she's not trying to convert you, then I think it could be ok. But you definitely need to have some conversations if/when you need to decide how far the relationship can go. How to raise the children is often a huge issue, as Kylyssa mentioned.

I can definitely date someone who is religious -- I've been dating the same woman for the last seven years, and she's a liberal Anglican. I don't take a hard line on non-belief, though (other posts of mine have explained my stance, but it's essentially agnostic secular humanism). She and I don't get into arguments over it, at ALL. We have great conversations. I really appreciate her perspective on all kinds of issues, and she's a fun, friendly, sweet person who I love very much. Likewise, she respects and appreciates my ideas. So, it works.

Honestly, I don't really think the issue for a LOT of people is 'could I date someone religious', but 'could I date someone who's a close-minded, intolerant fundamentalist'. That seems to make the essential difference for most folks, unless of course the mere mention of God causes you a hernia... in which case, eh, you're probably a fundamentalist yourself, just in the opposite camp. :)

Quote from: Thumpalumpacus on August 09, 2010, 02:15:26 PM
My son's mother was Catholic, and largely apolitical, when we met.  I'd been an atheist for twelve years at that time, and I've always been the wonkish sort.  Our relationship failed (after 6 years), but not over religion or politics, because we agreed to disagree on those issues.  We also agreed that our son would discover his own beliefs, and not have them hammered into shape by either of us.

Just because she's religious doesn't mean she's unworthy of respect; if you think that's the case, do not extend the relationship.  Also, so far as different views in a relationship are concerned, permit this quote from a favorite song of mine:

Quote from: Neil PeartJust between us, I think it's time to recognize
the differences we sometimes fear to show.
Just between us, I think it's time we realized:
the spaces in between leave room for you and I to grow

Good luck!

I am replying for the soul purpose of saying,
Anyone who quotes Neil Peart and/or anything Rush related is awesome in my book.

Thank you and have a great day.