Happy Atheist Forum

I personally regard it as mutilation and child abuse, but thats just my opinion; I'm speaking in reference to circumcision performed at child birth.

Thoughts?

My research (although not as much research as I would do if I found myself with a son on the way) indicates that there is no medical reason to circumcise.  For this reason I think it's a bad idea (I'd argue it's immoral) to decide for the boy that he wants it done to "fit in" when he can choose to do that when he is older.  I don't buy rationalizations that it will hurt more when they are older; sure it will be bigger but at least they get proper pain medications as opposed to none as a baby.  Not being able to remember it happening as a baby doesn't affect the actual pain either.

My son is intact.  Whitney, I found the same conclusion as you after researching: there's no medical need or advantage.  Also, when I learned that routine circumcision was started in part in an attempt to stop masturbation due to religious values at the time (http://www.cirp.org/library/history/darby4/ (http://www.cirp.org/library/history/darby4/)), I almost barfed.

I'm glad this issue is getting good discussion now.  I think its barbaric, with or without numbing meds.

Never appreciated your avatar so much as I did reading this thread, Biz.  

Quote from: "Businessocks"Also, when I learned that routine circumcision was started in part in an attempt to stop masturbation due to religious values at the time (http://www.cirp.org/library/history/darby4/ (http://www.cirp.org/library/history/darby4/)), I almost barfed.

Do you eat cornflakes?

Very anti circumcision here, I can see this thread being very amicable, I think there will be a large consensus. None of the arguments I have seen make sense in even practical terms (excluding medical of course), let alone come close to vaulting the consent barrier.

Secular infant circumcision used to be very common here a few decades back, not so now.
Doctors are very reluctant to do it.
I had daughters so I never had to decide, I suppose I'm a mild disagree.
The bible is a bit strange on the issue.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua ... 05_02.html (http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/second_circumcision/jos05_02.html)

No. No, I do not. If you're interested, there's an old thread on this forum about circumcision here. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3608)  

I'm very glad i'm not circumcised. My cousin was done and there were complications which led to severe scarring. Luckily it hasn't effected him in the disastrous way it could have but apparently it was a very close call at one point.

I'm fucking glad my parents didn't think i had to get done. It is a stupid tradition.

I was cut and I'm damn angry about it.  Not really angry, what is done is done and my parents didn't know any better.  It should be outlawed.  If need be as an intermediate step, doctors should at least be required to strongly advise against it.

I totally disagree with circumcision.  I cannot understand the logic behind it.

Circumcision is so fucking stupid!

And the invisible man in the sky came down and said: Everything you're doing is SIN! The only way to make up for this travesty is FORESKINS! I want lots and lots of foreskins!  Then you won't be sinners anymore, and I'll have to find some other excuse to kill you all!  

It's just popularized genital mutilation isn't it?  I would never have one of my kids circumcised, it preforms no function whatsoever, it's just some retarded thing people started doing to their dicks in the bronze age!

Poll: Do you agree or disagree with circumcision?

On religious or cultural grounds, most definitely not.
On medical grounds perfectly acceptable.

If one looks at the US and the UK one finds that most US males are circumcised while most UK males are not. In the US there is a private medical system and a profit driven ethos, in the UK we have a public medical system with a care driven ethos. Just saying  

I am circumcised, both my sons are, and until recently I had no problem with it.  I'm still on the fence, hence my vote, mainly because I've never had any problems with being that way.

Quote from: "elliebean"Never appreciated your avatar so much as I did reading this thread, Biz.  roflol    roflol

I find it disturbing that circumcision is still considered acceptable when most people shudder in horror at the stories of cliterectomies and other forms of genital mutilation preformed on women outside of North America.  Leave the peens alone!

I'm on the fence about this issue, I haven't had any problems with my circumcised penis, and I don't really feel as if I'm missing out by not having a foreskin, but then again, it IS a pretty barbaric thing to do to a baby.

I think it should be illegal. Who cares if some people are ok with it, they can get it done when they're old enough to decide for themselves. I doubt many would though, after it becomes unfashionable.

I've noticed this is one of those issues where atheists specifically seem to really feel passionately about - probably because circumcision is a draconian religious practice.  I don't like circumcision at all, but my son is circumcised.  We had a huge fight about it when he was about to be born, and it actually took talking to a handful of my uncircumcised friends to make me concede to my ex's wishes on the subject.  What I found was that for the majority of the guys I knew, they had a lot harder of a time feeling comfortable with their body when they weren't circumcised and it ended up affecting a few guys' self esteem really negatively because they felt strange about their 'weird' penis.  Which probably sounds totally stupid, but when you're a new parent that kind of stuff gets to you, the same way shying away from naming your kid an easily picked on name - avoid 'Bart' because it rhymes with 'fart', that kind of thing - becomes a weirdly important consideration.  

That wasn't enough to convince me, though, what really made me concede was my friend who wasn't circumcised while his dad was.  He said that he wished he had been because the fact that his penis looked different from his dad's really bothered him and made him feel uncomfortable about his body so much, he didn't really like to see himself naked and avoided it at all costs.  All of this feedback about negative effects on self esteem really got to me as well as the fact that his dad - who I felt should have equal say in everything obviously and whose opinion I trusted probably more than I should have because he has a penis and I don't- wanted it done, so with that my son got cut, it wasn't a big deal and now he's fine.  I sometimes worry about him getting older and being angry with me for making that decision for him, but I'll have made a ton of decisions for him that he could possibly be angry at me for and at least this one comes with what I consider at least an understandable explanation.  When the majority of guys you talk to who aren't circumcised tell you they wish they were and that you ought to circumcise your kid, well, it was compelling.

That being said, I still don't like it.  I feel guilty for not fighting it more.  And I always feel ashamed and uncomfortable when people start flinging around terms like 'abusive' in regard to it.    That's probably one of the shittiest aspects of being a parent - no matter how much consideration you put into any given decision, there is ALWAYS a group of people out there ready to tell you what a horrible person you are for making the choice you did.

No judgement from me.  

Quote from: "pinkocommie"That being said, I still don't like it.  I feel guilty for not fighting it more.  And I always feel ashamed and uncomfortable when people start flinging around terms like 'abusive' in regard to it.    That's probably one of the shittiest aspects of being a parent - no matter how much consideration you put into any given decision, there is ALWAYS a group of people out there ready to tell you what a horrible person you are for making the choice you did.

If you didn't there would be people that would tell you what a horrible person you are for not doing it, it seems there's always someone in a queue to try and make someone feel like shit for making any choice. You spent time considering it and it wasn't a thoughtless decision, that's a hell of a lot better than most people who would try to make you feel like shit for it without knowing 25% of the situation.

Circumcision is a barbaric practice. We do not cut the genitals of girls. We should not cut the genitals of boys.

I was circumcised at birth. I dislike my circumcision so much that I am restoring my foreskin.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Snip

Of course, all those self esteem issues could have been easily resolved by having the snip at 13, when they would be old enough to make the decision themselves. Also, the consideration you gave to your husbands wishes seems at odds with the facts that you gave no consideration to the wishes of your son, why not wait and let him decide himself? After all, it is much easier to have the snip later than restore a foreskin.

I'm against genital mutilation under any non-medically-necessary circumstances. That includes circumcision.

I'm against circumcision.  

Here's an interesting note - more men and boys die from circumcision complications than the number of men that even get penile cancer, much less die from it.  

I have tried to stay away from this discussion because people who are for it, especially parents who've had it done to their children, tend to take it as a personal attack that others may be against it.  Circumcised men sometimes feel it's an attack on their sexual being that other people object to circumcision.

I'm against performing any cosmetic surgery on children that is not considered to be reconstructive surgery.  I'm against such other cosmetic surgeries as ear tacking, nose bobbing, epicanthic fold reduction, and gender assignment surgery (about one in 2,000 infants is born with what are called ambiguous genitalia in layman's terms) performed on anyone too young to consent.  I also don't care for getting infants ears pierced though it's a far less serious procedure.

I have a friend who has very little penile sensation due to a botched circumcision.  Most men don't but in my opinion, even one infant dying from an unnecessary procedure is too many and even one man suffering from pain or sexual dysfunction due to an unnecessary procedure performed on him without his consent is too many.

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Snip

Of course, all those self esteem issues could have been easily resolved by having the snip at 13, when they would be old enough to make the decision themselves. Also, the consideration you gave to your husbands wishes seems at odds with the facts that you gave no consideration to the wishes of your son, why not wait and let him decide himself? After all, it is much easier to have the snip later than restore a foreskin.

All I can say is I did what I thought was best.  I'm used to being told what I should have done and that I made a terrible mistake, but it never gets any easier to listen to.  To say that I have no consideration for my son seems like a very cruel judgement for you to make about me, but I can understand why you would think that.  Just consider me another one of those terrible parents I suppose.  

I'm against it.

(circumcision knife from the late 1700's)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.edu-search.com%2Fuploads%2Fcircumcisionknife.jpg&hash=ed1a196f39554b0981480b57f8f5e0eaa3542381)