Happy Atheist Forum

This could get messy. Of course, it was reported by Fox News.com (or at least that is where I saw it), so take it with however big a grain of salt you will, but I'll be interested to see the outcome.

QuoteA graduate student in Georgia is suing her university after she was told she must undergo a remediation program due to her beliefs on homosexuality and transgendered persons.

According the the article (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/27/georgia-university-tells-student-lose-religion-lawsuit-claims/?test=faces), the school claims they will expel the student unless she changes her views on LGBT issues. I think this could have some serious free speech implications forthcoming.

Frankly, my position is this student is free to believe, and even vocalize her views within the First Amendment about these issues, and the school can't do anything about that. However, if because of these views, her school work suffers, then that should be reflected in her grades, and thereby affect her graduation status. I don't think the school has any right whatsoever to tell her what to believe (even though I think it is disgusting what she does believe).

QuoteThe Code of Ethics prohibits counselors from discriminating based on a number of factors, including gender identity and sexual orientation. "Counselors do not discriminate against clients, students, employees, supervisees, or research participants in a manner that has a negative impact on these persons," the code says.

And this part of the article/lawsuit cites the Code of Ethics for school counselors. The key word, in my opinion, is discriminate. The added bold formatting is mine. Again, the students views can be whatever she wants, however misguided, but as long as in her profession she does not discriminate against others based on those beliefs, as far as I'm concerned, she has done nothing wrong.

But... she could use a good slap I think.  

[youtube:13zlz300]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW9PW7uyeM4[/youtube:13zlz300]

[youtube:1yk4q9w9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXrLwkwnpc[/youtube:1yk4q9w9]

If this is being reported right, the college is in some deep kimche.

Belief is fine until it impacts on the job one is employed to do, this is a case when the lady believes one thing that is contrary to the requirements of the job she is training to do. It's not any easy call for either side. Imagine a few hundred years ago when a person who did not believe in daemons being the cause of illness voiced that opinion and was vilified for it. We would laugh at that situation now as 'we know better' and nobody in adequately educated and in their right mind would argue the facts. Is it a cut and dried fact that being Gay is not a lifestyle choice, and frankly even if it was, what has it got to do with this lady?

Quote from: "hismikeness"But... she could use a good slap I think.  

But give the poor lass a good meal first, she looks like she'd blow away in a stiff breeze!

I think a person is free to old whatever views they want, no matter how loony, and even to express those views, but there is certainly a time and a place for that last one.

If she goes to work as a school counsellor, and some kids comes in, thinking he might be gay, struggling with it and seeking guidance, if she cannot separate her abhorrent religious views from her professional duty of care, then she will not be able to provide him with suitable advice. This is a good reason for stopping her being a counsellor.

As another example, I wouldn't mind if my heart surgeon read horoscopes (maybe), as long as he left that shit outside the operating theatre and used scalpels on me instead of woo woo crystals. If his belief in crap affected his work, then it's time for him to go.

Quote from: "SSY"If she goes to work as a school counsellor, and some kids comes in, thinking he might be gay, struggling with it and seeking guidance, if she cannot separate her abhorrent religious views from her professional duty of care, then she will not be able to provide him with suitable advice. This is a good reason for stopping her being a counsellor.

Certainly. However, I can't think of many professions in which this woman won't encounter some LGBT's in some capacity, except work from home type jobs. Should the university really have a say whether she is fit ethically or morally, or only have a say if she is fit for the job academically? I wonder how there could be any type of "test" to see how she might handle a situation similar to the one described by SSY without her first having a chance at the job?  

It's thin ice they are treading on for sure.

This is going to be an interesting case, that's for sure.  I've worked/taught at both private and public universities, and private universities get a little more room to wiggle, than do public universities.  The problem I have is how does an institution give a degree in counseling to someone who holds views that go against the codes and teachings of counseling.  My question is why on earth would she want to be a counselor if she holds these views against homosexuals?  Unless she is going to work for one of those places that report to "cure" homosexuality. (major fit of laughter here)

I am sickened by anyone entering a profession that I have held near and dear to my heart for three decades, with that kind of belief system.  She does need a good slap, and a sandwich.  Maybe she's just angry because she's so damn hungry.  The other part of my professional brain wants to really dig deep and find out why she is repressing her own sexuality, perhaps?

Edit:  Ok, I went back and watched her video again.  WOW... I am dumbstruck.  Of course the faculty aren't necessarily saying that she has to alter her belief system, but she should have to learn to be sensative to those she doesn't agree with.  That's like working in an environment where men aren't sensative to women's issues, or African-American issues, or even Gay/Lesbian issues.  We don't always have to agree with those issues, but we do have to be sensative to them, and keep our OPINIONS out of the workplace.  She needs to understand that even though she may have Christian values, the profession she has chosen will be working with people from all walks of life and opinions and values.  She will never be a successful counselor, school or otherwise, unless she is willing to accept that everyone will NOT think as she does.  That's like saying I won't work somewhere that African-Americans work... well, good luck with that one, eh?  

So she wants to alienate children who might come to her with issues about being bullied for being gay, or worse, that makes sense.  :brick:  I am not saying that she shouldn't be a school counselor or anything, but really, she shouldn't be a fucking counselor.  Bitch.

Quote from: "GAYtheist"So she wants to alienate children who might come to her with issues about being bullied for being gay, or worse, that makes sense.  :brick:  I am not saying that she shouldn't be a school counselor or anything, but really, she shouldn't be a fucking counselor.  Bitch. :upset:

Has everyone seen this similar case?

http://chronicle.com/article/Judge-Upholds-Dismissal-of/123704/

Has anyone found any reports of the comments she made in papers or classes?  I find it interesting that what I've found doesn't report that part of the story.  It's a big gaping hole in sorting all of this out, in my opinion.  It's easy to look like a good, innocent little victimized Christian girl when people don't have access to your potentially ugly, hate-filled statements.  I'm guessing this wasn't a casual comment she made that got the attention of the faculty.  

I understand the concerns about freedom of speech and belief.  But I don't see sensitivity training and exposure to a culture that you seem to be publicly condemning as trying to change her beliefs.  I see it as an understandable approach to teaching her how to deal with clients that may differ from her religious beliefs in a professional manner.  She could be taught how to say, "I don't have any expertise in counseling this type of relationship; let me refer you to someone who does."  There's no need for her beliefs to be expressed.  The fact that she can't make that distinction would suggest to me that she lacks the maturity necessary to complete a counseling program.  Counselors do it every day:  some are comfortable trying to work with abusive men, others are not; some will work with children, some will not, etc.  I, like the faculty there, would be worried that she felt the repeated need to proselytize to, rather than help, clients who don't agree with her world view.  Also, when I went to grad school, I remember signing some form about performing to the standards defined and monitored by the supervising faculty and in a manner that adheres to the mission and purpose of the program.  Is there any mention of any such agreement between her and the university?

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Has everyone seen this similar case?

http://chronicle.com/article/Judge-Upholds-Dismissal-of/123704/

QuoteThe university "had a right and duty to enforce compliance" with professional ethics rules barring counselors from being intolerant or engaging in discrimination, and no reasonable person could conclude that a counseling program's requirement that students comply with such rules "conveys a message endorsing or disapproving of religion," Judge Steeh wrote.

Yes, this point is what I was trying to get at, but did not do so as eloquently as the writer of this article.  I'm glad to see that the judge supported the university, and I hope this new case ends the same way.

Quote from: "Businessocks"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Has everyone seen this similar case?

http://chronicle.com/article/Judge-Upholds-Dismissal-of/123704/

QuoteThe university "had a right and duty to enforce compliance" with professional ethics rules barring counselors from being intolerant or engaging in discrimination, and no reasonable person could conclude that a counseling program's requirement that students comply with such rules "conveys a message endorsing or disapproving of religion," Judge Steeh wrote.

Yes, this point is what I was trying to get at, but did not do so as eloquently as the writer of this article.  I'm glad to see that the judge supported the university, and I hope this new case ends the same way.

Yep, this will likely be the outcome of any such lawsuit.

QuoteThe ruling said, "Her refusal to attempt learning to counsel all clients within their own value systems is a failure to complete an academic requirement of the program."

This sums up how I feel.

Quote from: "Martin TK"

Quote from: "GAYtheist"So she wants to alienate children who might come to her with issues about being bullied for being gay, or worse, that makes sense.  :brick:  I am not saying that she shouldn't be a school counselor or anything, but really, she shouldn't be a fucking counselor.  Bitch. :upset:

It is difficult to eschew that mentality within someone who truly believes everyone should be with god, and therefore, shouldn't be gay.

Just another poor persecuted Christian, if you ask her. If you ask me, she's an ignorant twit.

I'm going to disagree with those of you saying she should be able to keep her craziness because....

Quote from: "url=http://www.secularnewsdaily.com/2010/07/28/a-biblical-degree-of-fraud/]SND[/url]"]Keeton, who thinks homosexuals suffer from “identity confusion,” wants to get a graduate counseling degree from ASU, which uses national standards on which to base its curriculum. Those standards (http://m.chronicle.augusta.com/news/metro/2010-07-24/asu-student-says-gays-have-identity-confusion), from the American School Counselor Association (http://www.schoolcounselor.org/) (ASCA), include the requirement that students must “recognize and accept” differences among their future potential clients/patients, including cultural diversity and alternative points of view. This means that telling LGBT people that their “lifestyle choice” is invalid based on the Bible is not in line with those standards.

Notice how even FOX News included:

Quote"The Counselor Education Program is grounded in the core principles of the American Counseling Association and the American School Counselor Association, which defines the roles and responsibilities of professional counselors in its code of ethics," the statement read. "The code is included in the curriculum of the counseling education program, which states that counselors in training have the same responsibility as professional counselors to understand and follow the ACA Code of Ethics."
The Code of Ethics prohibits counselors from discriminating based on a number of factors, including gender identity and sexual orientation. "Counselors do not discriminate against clients, students, employees, supervisees, or research participants in a manner that has a negative impact on these persons," the code says.

So to GAYtheist, I wish to insist that you are right - she should not be a counselor as she does not meet criteria. To be a counselor requires one be an empathizer. It is a job that requires right brain thinking and social skills. Her "future clients" are more important than her bigotry. Far more important. Her thoughts tell us how she will act, so I have no problem with this decision whatsoever. This is not an act of discrimination, to the contrary, it is an effort to prevent it.

A perfect analogy to draw this to is the Shirley Sherrod case. If to the contrary of reality, it turned out Andrew Breitbart/FOX News weren't making up a bunch of racist propaganda they would have been right in saying discrimination against a client due to race is unacceptable. Jennifer Keeton will clearly discriminate against future clients which is not something to be tolerated.

Quote from: "Sophus"To be a counselor requires one be an empathizer. It is a job that requires right brain thinking and social skills. Her "future clients" are more important than her bigotry. Far more important. Her thoughts tell us how she will act, so I have no problem with this decision whatsoever. This is not an act of discrimination, to the contrary, it is an effort to prevent it.

I agree with Sophus here and very nicely elucidated it is to. Not quite sure why I got rather Yodaerish there but I'll let it stand