Happy Atheist Forum

What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?  

Both the Bible and the Qur'an contain the laws of Leviticus, which is the book containing most of the absurd laws and their horrible punishments. The only difference is a lot of the muslim countries actually follow it. You could point this out but the response I usually get it, "But Jesus came to change all of that." And then they're finally stumped when I point out Jesus said, ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20

Pointing out the contradiction in someone's belief doesn't make you an asshole.  In this case, I'd say the theist's silence speaks volume-she knows you're right.  Otherwise, she would have responded.

If this sort of exchange makes you uncomfortable though, I'd just avoid bringing up these sorts of topics, or declining to share your view when asked about it.  When talking with a theist, it is almost unavoidable to point out at least one contradiction or flaw in their logic.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?  

It depends on whether they're preaching at you, you guys are having a friendly discussion, or you're trying to get up in their grill.  Context stamps most of our messages.

Actually she got back on and we had a long and civil discussion.I asked her again if she would kill her kid if god asked and she said she didnt know but it was a different time then :shake:


edited because my grammar and syntax are of the devil

Quote from: "NothingSacred"What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?  

This is one of the issues I have with Christians, their interpretation of the OT versus the NT.  They often refer to the OT for things like the ten commandments and their hatred of homosexuality, but then revert to the NT when asked questions like the one you posed.  I believe you have every right to ask the tough questions when having an open discussion with a theist/Christian; so long as you are willing to have your own ideas challenged by them.

I once had a discussion that went something like this:
Theist:  I hate homosexuals, because the bible tells me that it's wrong.
ME:  Where does it say that?
Theist:  In the OT, (he then cites chapter and verse)
ME:  So the OT is a valid book for Christians to follow?
Theist:  Of course it is.
ME:  So, then it's ok for me to stone my children for being disrespectful.
Theist:  Of course not, the New Testament changed all that.
ME:  So, the NT tells us that we should "LOVE our neighbors as ourselves" Right?
Theist:  Yes, Jesus says that.
ME:  So, why then do you not love homosexuals.
Theist:  I do love them in God, just not what they do.  It says what they do is wrong in the bible.
ME:  In the OT, right?
Theist:  Yes.

And on and on we went for a very long time.  I just wanted the guy to agree that Christians take from the OT what they want to apply, and then claim that the NT negates all the stuff they don't want to think or talk about.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?

Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

Quote from: "Double D"BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

No questions necessary; it's all pretty straightforward.


"Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."

How about the book of Numbers?
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

GO. Ransack that city! RRaarrr!

Quote from: "Double D"

Quote from: "NothingSacred"What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?

Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

Hi Denny

As a forum denizen from a number of places, e.g. TheologyWeb and Richard Dawkins, may I offer a little insight. This place is not the run of the mill slagg fest. Whitney and her crew run a tight ship and as a result people actually tend to say it like it is. Consequently it's a good idea to take people's comments at face value until one has evidence to the contrary. The underlined bit in your reply immediately calls into question the honesty of another member which is not very polite really is it? Please stick around and get to know the other members here, you will find this place a little different from the norm, but believe me you'll find it worth the effort.

Welcome aboard!

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QuoteHi Denny

As a forum denizen from a number of places, e.g. TheologyWeb and Richard Dawkins, may I offer a little insight. This place is not the run of the mill slagg fest. Whitney and her crew run a tight ship and as a result people actually tend to say it like it is. Consequently it's a good idea to take people's comments at face value until one has evidence to the contrary. The underlined bit in your reply immediately calls into question the honesty of another member which is not very polite really is it? Please stick around and get to know the other members here, you will find this place a little different from the norm, but believe me you'll find it worth the effort.

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for the heads up and for the welcome, I appreciate it!  And please believe me when I say that I am not looking for a fight. For some reason atheists and agnostics interest me, hence the reason for me even looking at this website.  After looking at a couple of topics regarding religion, I've found quite a few fallacies regarding Christianity.  I felt obliged to at least introduce myself and to offer any corrections as I see fit.  I'm no theolgian, but I do regulary stay at a Holiday Inn Express for work (OK, sorry attempt at humor).  I'll be sure to behave myself, as I'm not usually one to give in to emotion.

Regards,
Denny

Christianity is so diverse that you can state pretty much any fact about one group and immediately find a counter-example. So, yeah...

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "Double D"BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

No questions necessary; it's all pretty straightforward.


"Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."

How about the book of Numbers?
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

GO. Ransack that city! RRaarrr!

The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  While God is long suffering, eventually, time does run out, as it did for those particular groups of people.


Denny

Anything logically coherent is a hard question for biblical literalism.  My favorite is: "Is Gandhi in Hell?"  He was an exceptionally good person, but he did not believe in Jesus. Would a just God actually send Gandhi to hell?

The bible justifies a lot of evil evil evil things that the New Testament didn't really address. Christians act like it did, but the NT only undid the practice of stoning adulterous wives to death.  Every other bad thing in the OT is still on the table as far as Christian Scripture is concerned.  So when people say they believe in the bible, or they draw their morals from the bible, I point out:

~ The Bible condones GENOCIDE, RAPE, and SLAVERY.
~ Human Sacrifice. Contrary to popular belief: Pagan scriptures do not condone human sacrifice, that's all coming from the Bible.
~ God killed over 2.5 million people, and Satan only killed 10.
~ Jesus guaranteed that prayer was foolproof, but it definitely does not work. Statistically, it's actually WORSE to pray for people sick in the hospital.
~ God condoned, and several times ordered infanticide, and even punished women by making them have miscarriages, or be beaten and/or abused to kill the baby. Ironic, because these bible-thumpers are always Pro-Life.
~ An all knowing God who incorporated all his knowledge in his creation, is paradoxical to Free Will, Suffering, Imperfection, and even Creation.
~ That Epicurus Paradox is always fun to recite.

I can't stand the Bible! It's such an evil book, but people think it's so righteous. There are deeply disturbing its of the bible that every person who believes in it mus resolve to themselves.  In the end, if you cut out all the bits of the Bible that contradict each other, and contradict reality, you end up with a tattered pile of shredded paper with no coherent message remaining.

Quote from: "Double D"[
The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  While God is long suffering, eventually, time does run out, as it did for those particular groups of people.Denny

It seems normal that a country/people will demonise the enemy.
They are made to seem less than human.
Some people have an inconvenient reluctance to kill, this needs to be overcome.
It's OK to kill a two year old boy if he might corrupt my people?
So we kill a people take their land and young females, we don't feel guilty, no we are righteous.
Isn’t religion a wonderful thing?
I can understand why such things happened.
I can't understand anyone defending them today.
DD your religion has gangrenous limbs, best lop em off to save any remaining life.

Quote from: "Double D"

QuoteHi Denny

As a forum denizen from a number of places, e.g. TheologyWeb and Richard Dawkins, may I offer a little insight. This place is not the run of the mill slagg fest. Whitney and her crew run a tight ship and as a result people actually tend to say it like it is. Consequently it's a good idea to take people's comments at face value until one has evidence to the contrary. The underlined bit in your reply immediately calls into question the honesty of another member which is not very polite really is it? Please stick around and get to know the other members here, you will find this place a little different from the norm, but believe me you'll find it worth the effort.

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for the heads up and for the welcome, I appreciate it!  And please believe me when I say that I am not looking for a fight. For some reason atheists and agnostics interest me, hence the reason for me even looking at this website.  After looking at a couple of topics regarding religion, I've found quite a few fallacies regarding Christianity.  I felt obliged to at least introduce myself and to offer any corrections as I see fit.  I'm no theolgian, but I do regulary stay at a Holiday Inn Express for work (OK, sorry attempt at humor).  I'll be sure to behave myself, as I'm not usually one to give in to emotion.

Regards,
Denny

I hope you stay and enjoy yourself. My world view is very different from your world view but in my experience with people I'll share an awful lot more with you than I will disagree on, once we put the minor issue of the existance of God to one side  

Quote from: "Double D"The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  While God is long suffering, eventually, time does run out, as it did for those particular groups of people.


Denny

Just think about what you're saying. It's okay that God killed over 2.5 MILLION people (Plus uncounted billions in plagues and global floods) because we all deserve judgment.  In my Opinion, Original Sin is the single most perverted and evil religious belief in history.  There is an obsession with making sure that humans are evil. It's just spiritually masochistic. "We all deserve Judgment" Is such an awful thing to believe: Humans are all naturally evil and can only be saved by refraining from specific ThoughtCrimes known as Blasphemy.

We deserve judgment, because a bone-woman was tricked in a magical garden by a talking snake into eating a black-magic apple 6000 years ago.  God knew she would eat the apple, he designed her psychology down to the last detail.  He could have predicted anything she would ever do in any situation.  God created her failure, God put the talking snake and the apple there, it follows that if any of this is true (it's not) God either wanted her to fail, or God is simply bad at designing good people.  God is either not Benevolent, or not Omnipotent.  But he makes sure we believe he believe he is both. God is a bigot.

You see how easy that falls apart. It's like it's already a Straw Man!  This is because this is not the perfect word of God, and this is not reality. These are ancient myths that people came up with thousands of years before we knew anything about Logic or Science.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skepticaldog.com%2Fwp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F07%2Fbiblenoah.jpg&hash=a6ae1c534bea88fb32c9c050f1016c6906eb8995)

We do not deserve to be judged based on our beliefs. We do not need a giant invisible thought police in the sky to decide our eternal fate based solely on whether or not we fell in love with his son.  Original sin implies that every single person who died before Jesus was crucified went to hell.  Every person who was born in a location not colonized by Christianity who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell.  Gandhi, just about the most altruistic person I can think of, went to hell.

Were they all evil people? They were not, but God still thinks it's okay to torture good people for all of eternity. It's wrong, and I don't care how much bigger than me God is, he needs to answer to some form of morality, and stop being such a malevolent control freak.

QuoteThese people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

Denny

If one met, on average, one new person per day for all of ones life till one was 30 one would know 11,000 'ish people. I don't think I knew, properly, 11,000 people by the time I was 30. In fact would say the number of people I know well now at 50 would be maybe a couple of hundred. So for arguments sake lets say one gets to know 500 people in ones life time. What is 500 as a percentage of 7,000,000,000 the approximate population of the earth? It's 0.000,007%. To all intents and purposes you have met next to nobody at all, yet you hold a world view that says they are all sinners and should be judged. Why do you hold that view?

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

QuoteThese people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

QuoteThese people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

It's really good marketing though. Make the customer feel like they need your product... and make god damn sure they can pay!!  

My biggest problems with Christianity are as follows.

The bible is misogynistic in nature, blaming women for all the evils in the world.
<Eve and the apple, for example.>

The countless, horrible ways that women could be forced to marry, for reasons I will not list again, I will not search the bible for the verses, but for an example a man could ransack a village, kidnap a little girl, rape her and force her hand in marriage.

The concept of the sanctity of marriage holding only to heterosexual couples. Stop that shit.

The scientifically impossible, and seemingly magical, occurrences in the bible. The ark, walking on water and the like.

The seeming inability to accept that Homophobic, racist pricks enjoy to cherry pick what they want from the bible, and when called on it, to accept the unwillingness to see whats at their noses.

To me, all religion is a mistake, Christianity is the biggest of them.

I don't like being told what I think, I don't like words being put in my mouth, I'm sure I am not alone in this feeling. So why not ask Denny what he thinks and then comment on what he says?  

Quote from: "pinkocommie"

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

QuoteThese people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

No. You don't actually think it's untrue.  You know it's untrue. Anyone who thinks critically about it for ten minutes does.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"Christianity is so diverse that you can state pretty much any fact about one group and immediately find a counter-example. So, yeah...

Your statement addresses a HUGE issue within religion.  Here we have group A which follows the bible, and group B who claims to follow the same bible and the same god; however, within each group there are obvious differences.  WHY?  If there is ONE true god, wouldn't you think that he would have set up the rules so that everyone would follow the same plan?  I mean the guy is a deity, he should have known that the whole bible thing, sending his son, the Catholic Church, would have been a massive failure to get HIS humans to do his bidding.  Now, I get the whole cop out of free will and all, but you'd think he'd have come up with a better plan.  I mean he is afterall, GOD, isn't he?

Note:  I'm not saying this for or against you personally, just that your response triggered my Rant.  Thanks.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

QuoteThese people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).

That. That right there. The idea that all of humanity is tainted, unworthy, in need of salvation, ---I hate that.

I'm with you there, but then Christianity is built on the whole Original Sin concept.  Without it, Jesus has NO real meaning, and his death was for nothing.  I find the whole born into sin thing to be rather moronic, myself.  I remember as a child that crap really messing with my head, then I started asking some really tough questions, got into a lot of hot water with the parents and the ministers, but I kept on asking.  Got to the point that one of my church's pastors stopped visiting our house because I grilled him so much, another minister we had LOVED me, and was very understanding when I had questions.  The funny thing is that his kindness, along with the kindness of several professors in college, who thought they were helping me find my way within Christianity, actually gave me the materials I needed to understand just how off base religion is.

Quote from: "Double D"

Quote from: "NothingSacred"What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?

Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

I really wanted to know if she would stone her disobedient child as deuteronomy says. I also wanted to know if she could sacrifice her child like Jephthah does injudges 11:29-40. Could you and how can you arrive at the conclusion that a god who demands such things is good and loves you? I HONESTLY want to know!

Quote from: "Double D"Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

I've heard that defense a lot, "You don't really want to learn anything, You atheists only ask questions about my religion because you are evil trolls with nothing better to do than laugh at my insufficient arguments!"   Don't you think that's a bit... weak? To acknowledge that the general theist argument is humorously illogical, then say you refuse to defend your point because you don't want the atheist to laugh at you when they make you stumble. I think that's a bit ridiculous.

I mean C'mon, I can't speak for the whole forum, but I'm insulted when I hear that. I am an atheist because I always always look for answers. As of right now, (and my entire life past the age of 9) the answer 'God did it' was not sufficient for me.  I still want to learn though.  And I still want to fully understand the God Complex that religious people hold to.  So if I do ask a theist a burning question, can it be considered fair for me to not be accused of trolling?


BTW, Denny, you actually seem fairly reasonable, so I'm not directing this at you. I was merely fixating on that question, and I felt this needed to be said.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"I really wanted to know if she would stone her disobedient child as deuteronomy says. I also wanted to know if she could sacrifice her child like Jephthah does injudges 11:29-40. Could you and how can you arrive at the conclusion that a god who demands such things is good and loves you? I HONESTLY want to know!

First of all, the passage you are referencing:

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The context of this verse is smack dab in the middle of civil laws that were meant for the nation of Israel at that time in history.  Secondly, this punishment was reserved for the long term pattern of rebellion and sin of a child who was incorrigibly disobedient.  So no, it is not OK to stone your child to death.

As for Jephthah, what he did was clearly against God's law:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. Deuteronomy 18:10

Jephthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering.  Remember, just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't mean that God condones it.


Denny

Quote from: "Double D"First of all, the passage you are referencing:

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The context of this verse is smack dab in the middle of civil laws that were meant for the nation of Israel at that time in history. Secondly, this punishment was reserved for the long term pattern of rebellion and sin of a child who was incorrigibly disobedient. So no, it is not OK to stone your child to death.

As for Jephthah, what he did was clearly against God's law:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. Deuteronomy 18:10

Jephthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering. Remember, just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't mean that God condones it.


Denny

All you've proved here is that the Bible contradicts itself.  I want you to pick up your bible and read 2 Samuel 24:1.

Quote from: "The Bible"Once again the Israelites felt the LORD's anger, when he incited David against them and instructed him to take a census of Israel and Judah.

Then go forward a few pages and read 1 Chronicles 21:1.

Quote from: "The Bible"Now SATAN, setting himself against Israel, incited David to make a census of the people.

BIBLE FAIL!

As for whether or not the Bible condones violence, it does. And it's not isolated incidents, it is in just about every single book, about 1200 violent acts in all.

Don't believe me? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html It's all in there.  Why does your loving God do these things?

Quote from: "KebertX"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"I hate it not only because it's a depressingly bleak and pessimistic outlook regarding humanity, but also because I think it's untrue.

No. You don't actually think it's untrue.  You know it's untrue. Anyone who thinks critically about it for ten minutes does.

Don't correct me when I'm stating my opinion, please.  No one likes to be told what they think or know, even if you are agreeing with my essential point.

Quote from: "KebertX
All you've proved here is that the Bible contradicts itself. I want you to pick up your bible and read 2 Samuel 24:1.
quote="The Bible"]Once again the Israelites felt the LORD's anger, when he incited David against them and instructed him to take a census of Israel and Judah.

Then go forward a few pages and read 1 Chronicles 21:1.

Quote from: "The Bible"Now SATAN, setting himself against Israel, incited David to make a census of the people.

BIBLE FAIL!

As for whether or not the Bible condones violence, it does. And it's not isolated incidents, it is in just about every single book, about 1200 violent acts in all.

Don't believe me? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html It's all in there. Why does your loving God do these things?[/quote]

Wow, hard to believe that the editors of the Bible let that one slip for the last 3000 years or so.  

David sinned when he desired to number his army and the population of Israel.  What was his sin?  Pride, arrogance, an attitude of, "Look what I did" rather than "Look at what God did through me".  Nothing happens without God allowing it, and in this case, God allowed Satan to incite David to take the census.  Once again, it does not mean that taking a census is evil, but rather God looks at the motives of the heart and judges from there.

The Lord is many things, and loving is just one aspect.  He is also just, upholding His law for everyone, and showing no favoritism.  My sin is as bad as your sin which is as bad as the richest person's sin which is as bad as the poorest person's sin.  And it is that sin that separates us from Him.  The loving part comes into play when he paid the price of His Son for our sins, condemning Him that lead a perfect life and imputing His perfect life onto us.

Quote from: "Double D"Wow, hard to believe that the editors of the Bible let that one slip for the last 3000 years or so.  

David sinned when he desired to number his army and the population of Israel.  What was his sin?  Pride, arrogance, an attitude of, "Look what I did" rather than "Look at what God did through me".  Nothing happens without God allowing it, and in this case, God allowed Satan to incite David to take the census.  Once again, it does not mean that taking a census is evil, but rather God looks at the motives of the heart and judges from there.

The Lord is many things, and loving is just one aspect.  He is also just, upholding His law for everyone, and showing no favoritism.  My sin is as bad as your sin which is as bad as the richest person's sin which is as bad as the poorest person's sin.  And it is that sin that separates us from Him.  The loving part comes into play when he paid the price of His Son for our sins, condemning Him that lead a perfect life and imputing His perfect life onto us.

So David sinned when God told him to take the census? Or is it only a Sin in the book that attributes the exact same census to Satan.  This isn't both God and Satan doing the same thing.  This is one event that is paradoxically attributed to both God and Satan within the bible.  It just goes to show: the primitive who wrote the bible couldn't tell the difference between an angry God, and a Happy Satan.  With God's like these, who needs Beelzebub?

And God is fair because he acknowledges all humans as equally tainted and deserving of eternal torture.  Oh the skydaddy is so nice isn't he?  Here's what I don't get: Why did God need to sacrifice his Son (who's apparently also himself)?  It seems to me that if the man who can do anything wanted to forgive us, he could have just forgiven us.  I mean, think about what would have been going through his mind?

Quote from: "GOD"Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...

Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn't like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them...

So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That will, finally, make me happy. Yes, sending mself down and having the humans crucify me -- that will satisfy me. I feel much better now.

At the base of this all you're making the argument that God is perfect. And even though he does things that disgust us and contradict everything we know about morality, he's still absolutely perfect, and we're not in a position to judge him. This is most likely because he's bigger and us and has the power of flight.  Or is it because we owe him for creating us?

Here are the fundamental Problems with Creation:

What was God doing before he created us? Because if God were perfect, it would seem to imply that he was complete. And a complete being doesn't need to create anything more.  It doesn't feel a desire to do anything.  We humans only do things because of motivations we feel due to a gap between what we have, and what we want.  A perfect being is complete, and therefore does not have this gap, and therefore has no motivation to create anything.

Also, is it not obvious that God planned out Eve's original sin? He designed her psychology down to the last detail, he could have predicted what she would do in any possible situation. He crated the Apple. He created the talking Snake.  God created the Original Sin.  We must conclude that either God wanted Eve to fail and doom humanity to eternal torture, OR that he is not Omnipotent or Benevolent.

They say God had to give us free will, because we could not be happy without free will, and so Eve's failure was all her own.  Here's the thing: God created the nature of happiness. So couldn't he have just as easily created his precious humans in such a way that they could only be happy if they had NO free will. Or if they had free will, but their souls were pure (or however that works) so they only ever made good decisions.

God had options, and he ultimately chose to create a world with suffering. There is absolutely no way around this conclusion.  It makes no sense. Not one single word of it.  God is a paradox that continuously contradicts his own existence.  Saying he's Benevolent, Omnipotent, and he Created the Universe: You may as well be saying 'God is a Square Circle!' It's unadulterated nonsense!

I asked Christians 'burning' questions many times. Most times I get no reply. Other times I get apologetics so idiotically thought out, it's a wonder anyone believes such nonesense. Many of you know I am a big fan of reason, rationality and critical thinking. Christians can reason and rationalize their belief system to suit their needs. But they cannot think critically to reason or rationalize their thoughts of their belief system, otherwise, they would come to a much different conclusion. So, it's sometimes quite difficult to carry on a conversation concerning a 'burning question' with Christians.

The best questions are controversial or contradictive. Of course, a good Christian will say there is nothing contradictive or controversial in the Manual. You simply show them otherwise and be prepared for apologetics and "That's not in context" stuff. Just make sure you're able to back yourself up with pertinent biblical verses.

Quote from: "Double D"

Quote from: "NothingSacred"I really wanted to know if she would stone her disobedient child as deuteronomy says. I also wanted to know if she could sacrifice her child like Jephthah does injudges 11:29-40. Could you and how can you arrive at the conclusion that a god who demands such things is good and loves you? I HONESTLY want to know!

First of all, the passage you are referencing:

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The context of this verse is smack dab in the middle of civil laws that were meant for the nation of Israel at that time in history.  Secondly, this punishment was reserved for the long term pattern of rebellion and sin of a child who was incorrigibly disobedient.  So no, it is not OK to stone your child to death.

As for Jephthah, what he did was clearly against God's law:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. Deuteronomy 18:10

Jephthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering.  Remember, just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't mean that God condones it.


Denny

Its ok to stone them to death if they were continually disobedient then? For an omnipotent god who never changes his mind and knows right from wrong contex isn't enough to justify wrong doing.That civil law is not civil at all and yet your god approves of it.

Jephthah...

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry." "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.


Why would the spirit of the lord be mentioned as being upon him if it were something god didnt approve of and why would god grant him victory? being that he is omnipotent he would know his daughter would be the first out of his house and he would be bound by his word to kill her!

Quote from: "Double D"The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  


Denny

But God DOES punish the innocent Denny.

Exodus 20 - I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, PUNISHING THE CHILDREN for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

Quote from: "Double D"The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  


Denny

So God (Who knows the future) decided to annihilate an entire race of people because he did not approve of their behavior.  Just so he could let the Israelites do the same thing?  That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, THE BIBLE IS NOT TRUE!

The stories in there, I think, were intended to be fables, not historical documents.  You can learn a lesson about responsibility from the story of Jonah in the Whale without thinking there was actually a guy who lived in a big fish for 3 days!  Just like you can learn lessons of Friendship watching Pixar Movies without actually thinking toys can talk!