Happy Atheist Forum

I'm sure this topic has been covered at some stage before on this forum, but anyway...

Lets all asume for a moment that there is no God (or any such deity) - Lets aslo asume that the bible and all other religious texts are a complete work of fiction. Lets all asume that we have complete legitimate proof and evidence of this and that the whole concept of existance and evolution is compltly scientifically explained.

Religion has caused alot of pain and suffering; would the world not benifit without it. Would it not lessen the likelyhood of wars between nations. Would it erase the whole consept of homophobia and racial conflict completly. Would this create world pease.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

No, we would still have capitalism.  :hide2:

No. We would still have power mad megalomaniac nutters who want to run the planet. You can be sure what when all the theists are gone all the muggings, murders, rapes and molestations will be done by atheists.

People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

Quote from: "Martin TK"People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

I hope not but I fear you may be correct.

Even without religion we'd still have politics and/or greed driving wars.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Martin TK"People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

I hope not but I fear you may be correct.

I really believe that the only "cure" for religion is education.  When the inhabitants of this world realize that its survival will strongly depend on educating the masses, only then will the superstition of religion die out.  Martin Luther said it best when he wrote that the single greatest threat to Christianity was education.

Quote from: "Martin TK"People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

Hero worship is a phase that children/teenagers/young adults tend to go through. Some come out the other side and grow up. Others fail to fully develop as adults and these are the unfortunates upon whom religion peddlers prey.

Quote from: "Keithzworld"Religion has caused alot of pain and suffering; would the world not benifit without it. Would it not lessen the likelyhood of wars between nations. Would it erase the whole consept of homophobia and racial conflict completly. Would this create world pease.

Not at all.  There will always be asshats that will do stupid things.  What will happen though is that certain things, such as parents killing their children because they believe God is telling them to do it is much less likely.  Parents not taking their children to the doctor and letting them die or suffer through horrible pain because they believe that God's will is for them not to see doctors, but let him heal them instead won't happen.

There will likely be less instances of homophobia though, since about the only reasoning behind it is religious.  Not to say that there aren't atheists that hate gays, but that's more because they get upset about the ick factor.

A world where everyone is sure that atheism is true would be then end of human civilization. It would be a world ruled without law, because there would be no reason for law, not law based on social contract, anyway. Slavery would resume, and the weak would be the slaves, but since they would have no hope or stake in society, suicide-resistance would be the name of the game.

Let's see: I am dirt. I work for dirt that happens to have more money than me and can hire people with guns to make me work for them. Why not? I'm only a dirt clod anyway. Hell, even my consciousness is an illusion, but so is theirs. I can breed and give them more slaves, or I can strap a bomb on, grab some guns and ammo and go take out whatever I can. They're only going to work me to death anyway, and then I won't exist anymore. There is no God. I have no reason for being born. I am tortured by my consciousness. And I serve dirt clods who are no better than me.

Seriously, given atheism, how long can you watch YouTube videos of hydrogen bomb explosions without starting to see a sublime beauty in them?

Fortunately, atheism isn't true.

No, even better. You want a world without God? Check out my avatar. When I'm cooking meat on the grill, that little bitch takes it out on the cat until dinner is served. Why? because she can and she feels like it. Thank God for demi-god's like my wife and me who when the cat starts to howl will look over at said avatar that is pinning the cat down to the carpet by its throart and say, "Morticia--stop that." Otherwise the cat would live an Orwellian existence (Imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever; translation: Imagine a dogs jaws pinning your throat to the carpet forever.). That's a world without God.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"A world where everyone is sure that atheism is true would be then end of human civilization. It would be a world ruled without law, because there would be no reason for law, not law based on social contract, anyway. Slavery would resume, and the weak would be the slaves, but since they would have no hope or stake in society, suicide-resistance would be the name of the game.

Let's see: I am dirt. I work for dirt that happens to have more money than me and can hire people with guns to make me work for them. Why not? I'm only a dirt clod anyway. Hell, even my consciousness is an illusion, but so is theirs I can breed and give them more slaves, or I can strap a bomb on, grab some guns and ammo and go take out whatever I can. They're only going to work me to death anyway, and then I won't exist anymore. There is no God. I have no reason for being born. I am tortured by my consciousness. And I serve dirt clods who are no better than me.

Seriously, given atheism, how long can you watch YouTube videos of hydrogen bomb explosions without starting to see a sublime beauty in them?

Fortunately, atheism isn't true.

No time to respond ATM I'll get back to this later.

If people need a supreme being to tell them what is right, or not right then humanity is more sad than I imagined. However, I do not think that a world completely devoid of religion would be a GREAT place to live. We would still have problems, because we are human beings.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"A world where everyone is sure that atheism is true would be then end of human civilization. It would be a world ruled without law, because there would be no reason for law, not law based on social contract, anyway. Slavery would resume, and the weak would be the slaves, but since they would have no hope or stake in society, suicide-resistance would be the name of the game.

Let's see: I am dirt. I work for dirt that happens to have more money than me and can hire people with guns to make me work for them. Why not? I'm only a dirt clod anyway. Hell, even my consciousness is an illusion, but so is theirs I can breed and give them more slaves, or I can strap a bomb on, grab some guns and ammo and go take out whatever I can. They're only going to work me to death anyway, and then I won't exist anymore. There is no God. I have no reason for being born. I am tortured by my consciousness. And I serve dirt clods who are no better than me.

Seriously, given atheism, how long can you watch YouTube videos of hydrogen bomb explosions without starting to see a sublime beauty in them?

Fortunately, atheism isn't true.

No, even better. You want a world without God? Check out my avatar. When I'm cooking meat on the grill, that little bitch takes it out on the cat until dinner is served. Why? because she can and she feels like it. Thank God for demi-god's like my wife and me who when the cat starts to howl will look over at said avatar that is pinning the cat down to the carpet by its throart and say, "Morticia--stop that." Otherwise the cat would live an Orwellian existence (Imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever; translation: Imagine a dogs jaws pinning your throat to the carpet forever.). That's a world without God.

You're an hysterical, jabbering fuckwit, edward.

Granted, it's not an expansive reply, but it's as much as your contributions merit.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"A world where everyone is sure that atheism is true would be then end of human civilization. It would be a world ruled without law, because there would be no reason for law, not law based on social contract, anyway. Slavery would resume, and the weak would be the slaves, but since they would have no hope or stake in society, suicide-resistance would be the name of the game.

Let's see: I am dirt. I work for dirt that happens to have more money than me and can hire people with guns to make me work for them. Why not? I'm only a dirt clod anyway. Hell, even my consciousness is an illusion, but so is theirs I can breed and give them more slaves, or I can strap a bomb on, grab some guns and ammo and go take out whatever I can. They're only going to work me to death anyway, and then I won't exist anymore. There is no God. I have no reason for being born. I am tortured by my consciousness. And I serve dirt clods who are no better than me.

Seriously, given atheism, how long can you watch YouTube videos of hydrogen bomb explosions without starting to see a sublime beauty in them?

Fortunately, atheism isn't true.

No, even better. You want a world without God? Check out my avatar. When I'm cooking meat on the grill, that little bitch takes it out on the cat until dinner is served. Why? because she can and she feels like it. Thank God for demi-god's like my wife and me who when the cat starts to howl will look over at said avatar that is pinning the cat down to the carpet by its throart and say, "Morticia--stop that." Otherwise the cat would live an Orwellian existence (Imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever; translation: Imagine a dogs jaws pinning your throat to the carpet forever.). That's a world without God.

The entire implication that people cannot be good without religion is one of the things that really gets me.
I've always found atheists to be as good, if not better than those who embrace religion.
I would much rather do good because it is the right thing to do, not because I'm suppose to do it.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchicago.unitedcor.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fchicagocor.jpg&hash=00ea51cb74c925b757b63042844a9772ce0bf831)

http://chicago.unitedcor.org/

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"A world where everyone is sure that atheism is true would be then end of human civilization. It would be a world ruled without law, because there would be no reason for law, not law based on social contract, anyway. Slavery would resume, and the weak would be the slaves, but since they would have no hope or stake in society, suicide-resistance would be the name of the game.Nature proves time and time again that there are safety in numbers.  The social contract is to keep the group strong for better defenses, more hands to help with work, etc.

Let's see: I am dirt. I work for dirt that happens to have more money than me and can hire people with guns to make me work for them. Um, this is the reality every day with God firmly placed in it. Why not? I'm only a dirt clod anyway. Hell, even my consciousness is an illusion, but so is theirs I can breed and give them more slaves, or I can strap a bomb on, grab some guns and ammo and go take out whatever I can. They're only going to work me to death anyway, and then I won't exist anymore. There is no God. I have no reason for being born. I am tortured by my consciousness. And I serve dirt clods who are no better than me.

Seriously, given atheism, how long can you watch YouTube videos of hydrogen bomb explosions without starting to see a sublime beauty in them?

Fortunately, atheism isn't true.

No, even better. You want a world without God? Check out my avatar. When I'm cooking meat on the grill, that little bitch takes it out on the cat until dinner is served. Why? because she can and she feels like it. Thank God for demi-god's like my wife and me who when the cat starts to howl will look over at said avatar that is pinning the cat down to the carpet by its throart and say, "Morticia--stop that." Otherwise the cat would live an Orwellian existence (Imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever; translation: Imagine a dogs jaws pinning your throat to the carpet forever.). That's a world without God. :hmm:   Slavery existed with religious approval, suicide killings exist with religious approval, violence worship exists with religious approval.  So I'm not following the logic of why these things would come back full force with the absence of religious teachings and institutions?  Religious beliefs have not always led to compassionate, moral behavior.  

Now that being said, I don't think the world would be infinitely better without belief in God.  I think it's two separate discussions actually:  A world without belief in God and world without religion.  I think a world without competing organized religions would indeed lead to fewer conflicts in the world, on a personal and political way.  

But I think a world without any belief or wondering about possibilities beyond our explanation would be a significant shift (maybe for the better, maybe not) in human brain composition.  There's great neuroscience research that suggest we differ from animals in our ability to form images and stories outside of physical existence.  WE are the ultimate creators with our imaginations.  The long-lived quest for "God" is an expression of that human-ness programmed into our brains.  But I disagree it has to lead to worship.  I LOVE imagining and contemplating the possibility of god or gods without the need to worship any manifestation thereof.

Ironically, it's because I believe in evolution that I value what makes us different from other intelligent animals.  I do think that becoming a world full of only fact-based believers would be a dreary, un-human world indeed.  Not because of a lack of god per se, but because of the lack of the imaginative quality that sparks such uniquely human expressions and interactions in the world.

There  are a couple of  great podcasts about the morality centers and imaginative centers in our brain from RadioLab.  If I new how to link here to them, I would.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"

In short; the world would be just as bad a place as it is already, due to the likes of people like you. Got it.

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"You're an hysterical, jabbering fuckwit, edward.

Granted, it's not an expansive reply, but it's as much as your contributions merit.

First warning to Ivan. Your post is way outside of forum rules and etiquette.

Quote from: "Businessocks"Ironically, it's because I believe in evolution that I value what makes us different from other intelligent animals.  I do think that becoming a world full of only fact-based believers would be a dreary, un-human world indeed.  Not because of a lack of god per se, but because of the lack of the imaginative quality that sparks such uniquely human expressions and interactions in the world.

Well put.

Thank you, McQ.

You're actually the first moderator in any atheist group I've ever been in that has done that. In every group I have been in to date, the moderators have consistently allowed the atheists to break whatever rules they wanted to when it came to poor etiquette or insults directed toward me. On the other hand, they consistently warned me for things that were well inside the rules. I always found that to be very cowardly on their part, sad and pathetic, the last actions of a defeated mod and group.

You, on the other hand, have not acted that way. I am surprised and impressed.

Again, thanks.

Edward

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Martin TK"People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

I hope not but I fear you may be correct.

I don't think that mankind is hardwired to "worship". I think rather that we are wired to be willingly self-deceived. Will have that capacity to willingly believe all sorts of idiocy whether we worship it or not.

Now, if y'all excuse me, I the current additions of The Enquirer and The Daily Star (starbabe, ya know) to read...*chucklin*

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Martin TK"People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

I hope not but I fear you may be correct.

I don't think that mankind is hardwired to "worship". I think rather that we are wired to be willingly self-deceived. Will have that capacity to willingly believe all sorts of idiocy whether we worship it or not.

No, I think the hard-wiring for worship makes more sense from an evolutionary perspective. If we are hard-wired to deceive ourselves, wouldn't that make survival less likely? On the other hand, religion brings people together (http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/04/04/neurotheology/index.html) for good or evil, and that has evolutionary advantages. All this might explain the falling back on God and prayer by even some of the people here (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5472) in moments of crisis.

Edward:

Utilitarianism doesn't imply amorality; it implies a rational morality, based on human experience, rather than an irrational morality, based upon "divine" fiat (as translated by intercessionaries).  A social contract, as any reading of Locke et al will show, is vital for utilitarianism, in order to avoid evil (in the social sense).

Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Kashmir ... all religious conflicts which produced (and still produce) atrocities.  Is that your idea of divine morality?

Already pointed out has been religious justification for slavery and racism, as well.

History shows that religion has a piss-poor record when it comes to inculcating morality.  It more often serves as a fig-leaf to cover crimes which still occur to this day.  Can you justify those evils without resorting to moral relativity?

Quote from: "Jac3510"No, I think the hard-wiring for worship makes more sense from an evolutionary perspective. If we are hard-wired to deceive ourselves, wouldn't that make survival less likely? On the other hand, religion brings people together (http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/04/04/neurotheology/index.html) for good or evil, and that has evolutionary advantages. All this might explain the falling back on God and prayer by even some of the people here (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5472) in moments of crisis.

It's the self deception that makes the worship possible. It works the same way as some ancient person incites a belief that if we band together, we could kill or drive off the guys across the river so we have more food.
Hunting is safer in numbers. But more numbers uses more food and we have enough people, so let's get rid of the guys that live across the river, even though they haven't done anything to us.

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"You're an hysterical, jabbering fuckwit, edward.

Granted, it's not an expansive reply, but it's as much as your contributions merit.

First warning to Ivan. Your post is way outside of forum rules and etiquette.

McQ - presumably your objection to my post is based on my use of a certain combination of four letters. Let me quote from one of our forum's more erudite members:

".....if you insist that I indulge your superstitious fear of certain arrangements of letters, then I must insist that you refrain from ever posting the numbers 312, 6 and 4,734. These numbers are clearly vulgar, offensive and have no place in civilised society."

You might also want to reflect on the absurdity of an atheist, on an atheism forum, parading his superstitious fear of certain combinations of letters.

You might also want to reflect on the facts of this situation:

1: edward suggested that having no imaginary friend will lead to one finding beauty in weapons designed to slaughter millions.

2: I treated his input witht the contempt it deserved.

Now, one of these comments is clearly more uncivilised and lacking in etiquette than the other. Can you work out which one that is?

Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

As an atheist, I don't do imprecations. Strange that you would use that word.

However, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to insult a person's intelligence based on their faith. It may be unkind, but it is certainly not unfair nor unreasonable.

If I sincerely loved and believed in the Tooth Fairy and I publicly professed my love and belief, I would likely have my intellect ridiculed. The things that theists believe are far, far more ridiculous than belief in the Tooth Fairy and thus believers richly deserve to have their intellects ridiculed.

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

As an atheist, I don't do imprecations. Strange that you would use that word.

However, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to insult a person's intelligence based on their faith. It may be unkind, but it is certainly not unfair nor unreasonable.

If I sincerely loved and believed in the Tooth Fairy and I publicly professed my love and belief, I would likely have my intellect ridiculed. The things that theists believe are far, far more ridiculous than belief in the Tooth Fairy and thus believers richly deserve to have their intellects ridiculed.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I've met many very intelligent people who are religious.  You know, the compartmentalization thing.  The possession of faith and the possession of intellect are two different things.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

As an atheist, I don't do imprecations. Strange that you would use that word.

However, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to insult a person's intelligence based on their faith. It may be unkind, but it is certainly not unfair nor unreasonable.

If I sincerely loved and believed in the Tooth Fairy and I publicly professed my love and belief, I would likely have my intellect ridiculed. The things that theists believe are far, far more ridiculous than belief in the Tooth Fairy and thus believers richly deserve to have their intellects ridiculed.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I've met many very intelligent people who are religious.  You know, the compartmentalization thing.  The possession of faith and the possession of intellect are two different things.

There are two main reasons, which I mentioned in my 'origin of the religion' threads, why ostensibly intelligent people fall victim to the delusion of religion. Those reasons are greed/egomania and cowardice.

The greedy are seduced by the promise of everything forever after death, the egomaniacal are seduced by the idea that the founder of the universe, who looks just like them, has singled them out for special attention, and the cowardly simply don't have the balls to look reality square in the eye. The fact that the intellect of such people can be subjugated by the base, obvious lures offered by religion shows us clearly that their intellect is not what it may appear to be.

Any way you cut it, if you believe in invisible friends with magic wands who like to zap up universes in their spare time, you. are. an. idiot.

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"You're an hysterical, jabbering fuckwit, edward.

Granted, it's not an expansive reply, but it's as much as your contributions merit.

First warning to Ivan. Your post is way outside of forum rules and etiquette.

McQ - presumably your objection to my post is based on my use of a certain combination of four letters. Let me quote from one of our forum's more erudite members:

".....if you insist that I indulge your superstitious fear of certain arrangements of letters, then I must insist that you refrain from ever posting the numbers 312, 6 and 4,734. These numbers are clearly vulgar, offensive and have no place in civilised society."

You might also want to reflect on the absurdity of an atheist, on an atheism forum, parading his superstitious fear of certain combinations of letters.

You might also want to reflect on the facts of this situation:

1: edward suggested that having no imaginary friend will lead to one finding beauty in weapons designed to slaughter millions.

2: I treated his input witht the contempt it deserved.

Now, one of these comments is clearly more uncivilised and lacking in etiquette than the other. Can you work out which one that is?

A random combination is numbers is not the same thing as a recognised sequence of characters. Language, spoken or written, is symbolic. When you use language you parse meaning via symbolism, simply attempting to weasel out of what you wrote by claiming the characters are somehow random and therefore jufhdn is just trying to get away from the personal insult you aimed directly at Edward.

His ideas may well be fuckwittery writ large but they are his ideas.

Quote from: "Edward the Theist"Let's see: I am dirt. I work for dirt that happens to have more money than me and can hire people with guns to make me work for them. Why not? I'm only a dirt clod anyway. Hell, even my consciousness is an illusion, but so is theirs. I can breed and give them more slaves, or I can strap a bomb on, grab some guns and ammo and go take out whatever I can. They're only going to work me to death anyway, and then I won't exist anymore. There is no God. I have no reason for being born. I am tortured by my consciousness. And I serve dirt clods who are no better than me.

It's pretty clear that you are obsessed with the idea that religion makes some people better than others.  Reread what you wrote here, you are basically raving that belief in the equality of human beings will bring about Armageddon.

How is this much different from "everyone is a piece of shit because two people 6,000 years ago disobeyed God so everyone deserves suffering?"  How is it worse than people doing those things for religious reasons as they do now?  When they do them for religious reasons they can add on "I'm dirt but God is my master so I'm better dirt than everyone else so I have the right to do anything I want to other people" and "I'll go to Heaven when I blow up these subhuman nonbelievers."  Hmmmm, absolute extinction or a promise of paradise - which sounds more tempting to you?  

I'm surprised you've never heard of (or don't believe in) empathy.  Just randomly running around killing one another wouldn't serve a purpose from an evolutionary standpoint, but helping each other would.

You are basically stating that you are a sociopath who would kill, rape, steal, and keep slaves if your faith were shaken.  I'm not being flippant when I say this but I suggest counseling, even talking to your pastor or priest.

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"1: edward suggested that having no imaginary friend will lead to one finding beauty in weapons designed to slaughter millions.

2: I treated his input witht the contempt it deserved.

No, you treated Edward with contempt, not his ideas.

Quote from: "Ivan Tudor C McHock"Any way you cut it, if you believe in invisible friends with magic wands who like to zap up universes in their spare time, you. are. an. idiot.

Wow. This hurts, and I'm an atheist.  I know of countless individuals that are devout theists that I am sure are intellectually superior to me.  I guess I'm a super idiot.  Here I thought I was of at least average intelligence.  Thanks for clearing that up.