Happy Atheist Forum

To someone who said all religions are cults.

No.

Cults are cults. Organized religion is sometimes a force for good in this world, while cults never are.  I can drop off emergency supplies at my local church but not at my local cult-compound.

Just because something is irrational doesn't make it automatically evil. My religious friends do not refuse to talk to me because I am not part of their religion, as a cultist would. My religious family members do not cut off contact with me because I do not share in their religion, as a cultist would. Maybe your religious family members do, but that doesn't mean *all* religions are cults. Overgeneralization (is that a repetetive word?), I believe, is a nasty, dangerous thing, in general :p.

Quote from: "hasone"To someone who said all religions are cults.

No.

Cults are cults. Organized religion is sometimes a force for good in this world, while cults never are.  I can drop off emergency supplies at my local church but not at my local cult-compound.

Just because something is irrational doesn't make it automatically evil. My religious friends do not refuse to talk to me because I am not part of their religion, as a cultist would. My religious family members do not cut off contact with me because I do not share in their religion, as a cultist would. Maybe your religious family members do, but that doesn't mean *all* religions are cults. Overgeneralization (is that a repetetive word?), I believe, is a nasty, dangerous thing, in general :p.

CULT n.

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
The followers of such a religion or sect.
A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
The object of such devotion.
An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
[Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate.]

cultic cul'tic or cult'ish adj.
cultism cult'ism n.
cultist cult'ist n.

ALL RELIGIONS are CULTS by definition.  It just depends on what YOUR definition is.  You define cults from the perspective of something evil or wrong.  My origninal statement stands, if you read it in the context in which it was written.  Cults, ie Relgions, use certain rituals, doctrines, figures, and icons to "train" their believers to follow their central teachings.  IF that doesn't sound like religion to you, then you need to redefine your definitions.  To the ancient Romans, early Christians were cultists, which is why they were persecuted; they followed the teachings of a condemned criminal.  It wouldn't be much different if we were to suddenly begin to "worship" Charles Manson, our government would persecute us.

I split this post to reflect the religion/cult discussion, unfortunately I forgot to change the name for the split post, I apologize for any confusion.

To be fair, there is a cultural distinction between a cult and a religion.

There is no difference at all in terms of the truth-value of their claims.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"To be fair, there is a cultural distinction between a cult and a religion.

There is no difference at all in terms of the truth-value of their claims.

Yeah, exactly.  I wouldn't categorize all religions as cults, but I also wouldn't say that those religions not categorized as a cult are necessarily any better than a cult, they're just widely accepted enough culturally to warrant the distinction.  I always thought the main difference between a cult and a religion was the number of followers, like how a cult-classic movie is a movie with a devoted but small fan-base.

Quote from: "Squid"I split this post to reflect the religion/cult discussion, unfortunately I forgot to change the name for the split post, I apologize for any confusion.

I fixed it...you just have to go in and edit the title of the OP and it changes the topic title.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Squid"I split this post to reflect the religion/cult discussion, unfortunately I forgot to change the name for the split post, I apologize for any confusion.

I fixed it...you just have to go in and edit the title of the OP and it changes the topic title.

Ah, cool...gracias.

All religions started as cults.  I agree with MartinTK

Quote from: "Argie"All religions started as cults.  I agree with MartinTK

Thank you, I see that you get it.  I am not saying that all cults/religions are inherently BAD, just that I find no real value in them.  I believe that cults/religions both seek a form of control over their members, using common tactics.

So wait, are you saying all religions STARTED as cults or all religions ARE cults?  I agree that all religions started as cults, but I think it's incorrect to say that all religions are cults as they exist today, given that a cult is culturally distinguished as a fringe or smaller group.

QuoteThe word cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are reasonably considered strange.[1] The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The narrower, derogatory sense of the word is a product of the 20th century, especially since the 1980s, and is considered subjective, and is a result of the anti-cult movement, which uses the word in reference to groups seen as authoritarian, exploitative and possibly dangerous. The word implies a group which is a minority in society.

The popular, derogatory sense of the word has no currency in academic studies of religions, where "cults" are subsumed under the neutral label of "new religious movement", while academic sociology has partly adopted the popular meaning of the word.[2][3][4]

The concept of "cult" was introduced into sociological classification in 1932 by American sociologist Howard P. Becker as an expansion of German theologian Ernst Troeltsch's church-sect typology. Troeltsch's aim was to distinguish between three main types of religious behavior: churchly, sectarian and mystical. Becker created four categories out of Troeltsch's first two by splitting church into "ecclesia" and "denomination", and sect into "sect" and "cult".[5] Like Troeltsch's "mystical religion" Becker's cults were small religious groups lacking in organization and emphasizing the private nature of personal beliefs.[6] Later formulations built on these characteristics while placing an additional emphasis on cults as deviant religious groups "deriving their inspiration from outside of the predominant religious culture".[7] This deviation is often thought to lead to a high degree of tension between the group and the more mainstream culture surrounding it, a characteristic shared with religious sects.[8] Yet sociologists maintain that unlike sects, which are products of religious schism and therefore maintain a continuity with traditional beliefs and practices, "cults" arise spontaneously around novel beliefs and practices.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

Cults have behavioral markers that separate them from mainstream religions: removal from family & familiar surroundings; a command structure that is very intrusive (to the point of assuming control of the believer's social- and love-life); the ruthless fleecing of the flock, far beyond 10% tithing; and so on.  

The idea that all religions start as cults is in essence a numbers argument, but the are more (and more important) differences than sheer numbers which distinguish the two phenomena.

Not ALL religions are cults, but a few "legitimate" religions technically are.

Catholicism and Scientology are groups that DO in fact constitute cults.

A significant group of people, having been brainwashed to believe obvious lies, kept in the organization by threats of being shunned, or otherwise excommunicated. Most important is the structure: The blind followers on the bottom, and exactly ONE figure-head leader on top. The Pope and L. Ron. Hubbard are/were cult leaders, even if they're deluded enough to actually believe they're spreading truth.

If God could count as a figure-head leader, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons could also be said to belong to cults. But God isn't real, so they technically don't count.

A cult isn't defined as being harmful. If that were the definition, the 3 Abrahmic Religions would be the most fearsome cults in the world.

Quote from: "KebertX"Not ALL religions are cults, but a few "legitimate" religions technically are.

Catholicism and Scientology are groups that DO in fact constitute cults.

A significant group of people, having been brainwashed to believe obvious lies, kept in the organization by threats of being shunned, or otherwise excommunicated. Most important is the structure: The blind followers on the bottom, and exactly ONE figure-head leader on top. The Pope and L. Ron. Hubbard are/were cult leaders, even if they're deluded enough to actually believe they're spreading truth.

If God could count as a figure-head leader, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons could also be said to belong to cults. But God isn't real, so they technically don't count.

A cult isn't defined as being harmful. If that were the definition, the 3 Abrahmic Religions would be the most fearsome cults in the world.

I disagree that Catholicism is a cult.  The heterogeneity of opinion within the church on big issues indicates that even its nominal big cheese wields less authority than we may think.

Quote from: "hasone"To someone who said all religions are cults.

No.

Cults are cults. Organized religion is sometimes a force for good in this world, while cults never are.  I can drop off emergency supplies at my local church but not at my local cult-compound.

Just because something is irrational doesn't make it automatically evil. My religious friends do not refuse to talk to me because I am not part of their religion, as a cultist would. My religious family members do not cut off contact with me because I do not share in their religion, as a cultist would. Maybe your religious family members do, but that doesn't mean *all* religions are cults. Overgeneralization (is that a repetetive word?), I believe, is a nasty, dangerous thing, in general :p.

 If you look at the texts of the abrahamic religions they all ask for unwavering devotion to the point of being ready to kill or die for their diety,Their diets are controlled ( if they are actually following the texts), Certain thoughts are considered sinful ( "the wages of sin are death") , Their sexuality is controlled, their families ( again if they are following their holy book) have little value compared to the value of the love of the diety, and Fear and guilt are big motivators. That is text book cult. Individual churches may not run that way but if you look at the holy books the churches teach from it is clear.Luckily most people cherry pick what is important to them out of holy books. I wanted to add that cults are sometimes a force for good as well the hare krishna provide food at homeless shelters and scientologisty has charity organizations. Cults do good things to promote their cult.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"

Quote from: "hasone"To someone who said all religions are cults.

No.

Cults are cults. Organized religion is sometimes a force for good in this world, while cults never are.  I can drop off emergency supplies at my local church but not at my local cult-compound.

Just because something is irrational doesn't make it automatically evil. My religious friends do not refuse to talk to me because I am not part of their religion, as a cultist would. My religious family members do not cut off contact with me because I do not share in their religion, as a cultist would. Maybe your religious family members do, but that doesn't mean *all* religions are cults. Overgeneralization (is that a repetetive word?), I believe, is a nasty, dangerous thing, in general :p.

 If you look at the texts of the abrahamic religions they all ask for unwavering devotion to the point of being ready to kill or die for their diety,Their diets are controlled ( if they are actually following the texts), Certain thoughts are considered sinful ( "the wages of sin are death") , Their sexuality is controlled, their families ( again if they are following their holy book) have little value compared to the value of the love of the diety, and Fear and guilt are big motivators. That is text book cult. Individual churches may not run that way but if you look at the holy books the churches teach from it is clear.Luckily most people cherry pick what is important to them out of holy books. I wanted to add that cults are sometimes a force for good as well the hare krishna provide food at homeless shelters and scientologisty has charity organizations. Cults do good things to promote their cult.

How many of you have ever heard a Christian say "I put god in front of my family"  If that isn't putting the central theme of your CULT above all else, I don't know what is.

But how many Christians, in practice, do that?

I would argue, not many.  After all, they spend their money on feeding Junior, not "donating" it all to the Leader.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"But how many Christians, in practice, do that?

I would argue, not many.  After all, they spend their money on feeding Junior, not "donating" it all to the Leader.

I'd say most cult members dont follow word for word what their leader says. Most cults are built upon a system of rules or ideals that are impossible to follow.When the members fail they have to go looking to the leader for forgiveness. The power comes the guilt when members fail. The member might think wow I got junior that toy and got myself some shoes when I could have given that to the cult. I better give more next time or at least donate my time and or labor.[youtube:3rzuqd2j]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFncA6pm7T8[/youtube:3rzuqd2j]

Quote from: "NothingSacred"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"But how many Christians, in practice, do that?

I would argue, not many.  After all, they spend their money on feeding Junior, not "donating" it all to the Leader.

I'd say most cult members dont follow word for word what their leader says. Most cults are built upon a system of rules or ideals that are impossible to follow.When the members fail they have to go looking to the leader for forgiveness. The power comes the guilt when members fail. The member might think wow I got junior that toy and got myself some shoes when I could have given that to the cult. I better give more next time or at least donate my time and or labor.

Perhaps, and perhaps not.  In cults where the members share a compound, the existence of both peer pressure and the presence of informers would tend to result in highly conformist behavior.  

You're right that guilt is a lever of power loved by cult-leaders, because it keeps members looking over their shoulders; and you're right that most religions rely on a level of guilt in order to compel favored behaviors.  It is the intensity of the practice, in my view, that helps to differentiate between a religion and a cult.

If one is to claim that the Catholic Church is a cult, it should be a bit more apparent that the tools of manipulation are being used to a cult-like intensity.  Please note that that is the specific issue I am addressing.  It is apparent from the criteria listed here (http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklist.htm) that they are not.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I disagree that Catholicism is a cult.  The heterogeneity of opinion within the church on big issues indicates that even its nominal big cheese wields less authority than we may think.

That is true, but you can't deny: It has the same basic structure of a really big cult.

Quote from: "KebertX"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I disagree that Catholicism is a cult.  The heterogeneity of opinion within the church on big issues indicates that even its nominal big cheese wields less authority than we may think.

That is true, but you can't deny: It has the same basic structure of a really big cult.

Yes, and atoms have the same basic structure as solar systems.  Yet the one isn't the other.  

The word "cult" has a specific meaning.  The Catholic faith doesn't fit that meaning.  Attempts to shoehorn it into that definition only redound to the deficit of the person making the attempt.