Happy Atheist Forum

As former theists know all too well, many religions have a built in system of fear to retain their members. I was always taught that those who left the faith(christianity) lost the protection of god in their lives and horrific things would happen to them. I know this isn't the case intellectually. I have left religion and I am in general happy. The problem is in the back of my mind Pascal's wager pops up. I know the various flaws with this wager but on some days thinking through it rationally doesn't seem to help. I've had fear ingrained in me since I can remember. My earliest memory of church was my youth pastor telling a five year old boy(who giggled at a mentally challenged student's runny nose) that he would go to hell if he wasn't nicer. He talked about the eternal  burning, lonliness, and suffering. I was allowed to sit through the church reading the book of revelation as a child and I was taught that god was going to burn all of the non christians to death. Lately I haven't been able to sleep without nightmares that Jesus is torturing me or that god is going to kill my husband in his sleep. It is very frustrating because rationally I can say hell has about the same % chance of exsisting as unicorns or the easter bunny but it still strikes me on an emotional level.I recently watched a documentary about members of a cult who got out. I found myself feeling the same way they did. Even though I attended a very mainstream even liberal christian church I'm convinced religion in general is a big cult. Those of you who are further along in recovering from religion, in what ways can I teach myself to ignore the lies I was taught?  

How long were you a christian and how long ago did you stop being a christian?

I know how you feel, I was christian for the first thirteen and a half years of my life (about 2 1/2 years free!)

    Well, When I lost my faith I was in a very bad situation, I had nothing to live for, I hated myself and life, and I was considering suicide. (My problems back then seem trivial when I think of them now, but they were important to me then.)
    I lost my faith because of all the bad things that happened to me, in a way it was the best thing to ever happen to me. I rationalized that no benevolent god would allow those things to happen to one of his followers.
    With my belief in god stripped by the realities of life, I discovered that the bible was inaccurate, and because of that there was no afterlife, and thus, nothing to fear.

I lost my fear of hell at that time.

For advice, evaluate your fears
1.What do I fear?
2.Why do I fear this?
3.Are these fears justified? (If no, disregard them. If yes, try to accept your fear.)

I try to keep a very open and accepting mindset. If you can't change something, accept it. If you can change it, do your best.

Hope it helps.

*Edited for minor readability issues

I can relate. Although it usually doesn't bother me just two nights ago I had (long story short) a very bizarre dream where it was the Apocalypse and I had been condemned to hell afterward. Even though it's a dream it's one of those things that doesn't leave you quickly.

Surely, different methods work for different people but I was taught by a psychologist that you cannot reason with fear because, as you already know, this fear isn't rational. So what I do is try to focus on love and being connected with others. Get together with a good friend, do something with someone that makes you happy and you should feel anew. The mind just needs some fresh air. Chances are, for both of us, that it's something in the subconscious completely unrelated to religion itself anyway.

Warmest wishes!  

I'm very sorry for you but sadly can't relate. I was never raised in a faith and was aloud to believe in what and who and how I wanted without judgement. Without that indoctrination and brianwashing and fear that keeps followers to afraid to question thier own minds let alone religious leaders or texts I haven't ever had reacurring fears or nightmares. I would guess after you become more comfortable with what you believe (or don't) and why your problems will fade with time. Sadly from some stories I've heard it can take years.

Quote from: "Tank"How long were you a christian and how long ago did you stop being a christian?

22 1/2 years but i had questions from an early age but i supressed them ...its been about 6 mos since i left

Quote from: "NothingSacred"

Quote from: "Tank"How long were you a christian and how long ago did you stop being a christian?

22 1/2 years but i had questions from an early age but i supressed them ...its been about 6 mos since i left

It's absolutly to be expected that you'll still be deep in the grip of serious cognitive dissonance at the moment, the nightmares are all part of your sub-conscious coming to terms with a massive realignment of your world view. One way of helping yourself get over this is to discuss these issues with others just as you are doing here. Another way is to meditate on the problem while awake thus doing what the dreams are trying to do but in a controlled way. I think I know somebody who can help with this.

I so understand!  Most of my life (30+ years) I identified as a Christian, even though I've always had questions and doubts.  It's only been the last year or so that I have openly said out loud to others that I don't believe in the Christian idea of God.  Yet, still, I fear at times that punishment we've been taught at church.  I'm also still guilty at times of thinking bad things are going to happen to me (one of my children will die, my husband will get really sick, etc.) because I don't believe.  Like you, I know this line of thought is completely irrational, but when it washes over me, it feels very real.

It does get less with time; I'm definitely less fearful now than I was just 3 months ago.  I'm also lucky enough to have a non-believing husband who has never had the fear of hell or God-caused punishment to talk these fears out with.  Do you have anyone like that?

As far as Pascal's wager goes, I just think about how even if God is true and the threat of Hell is true, there's nothing I can do about it.  I could still pick the "wrong way" to worship and end up there anyway.  So I start seeing how silly all of it really is, and a lot of my fear dissipates.  Just believing in a God, in other words, isn't enough to keep you out of hell.  No, you have to figure out the right religion to believe, so the wager is off anyway.  Does that make any sense?

And it might help to read some good books that explore the problems with the Christian Bible.  For me, realizing exactly how much politics when into the KJV and exclusion of books and differing interpretations, etc. again made any threats or promises seem unworthy of my real consideration.  If you can debunk the source, then there is nothing to fear in the words that remain.  

If you ever have one of those fearful moments, you are welcome to PM me.  Maybe we can work through it together.

Best wishes.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"Those of you who are further along in recovering from religion, in what ways can I teach myself to ignore the lies I was taught?

The trick for me was not to ignore them, but to investigate every single claim religion makes, using reason.  You'll have your own critical mass of comfort, where you get to the point that the entirety of your debunking eliminates your fear.  It's kind of like, as a child, coming to grips with the Monster under the Bed.

I think a better question would be: How did you go from being a Christian to an Atheist?

You can turn a fundamentalist into a liberal believer with education. And A liberal believer can become an agnostic with critical thinking. But Full-Fledged Atheist converts usually need something bad to turn them all the way away from god.  Faith does not appeal to the intellect. It never has. Faith is a series of internally verifiable truths that only appeal to your emotions.  When faith no longer appeals to your emotions on any level, then you are entirely free of religious faith.

Ironically, I get this line of thought from a different religion: Buddhism. This religion taught me that the way to end suffering is to free yourself from attachment.  Organized Religion does the opposite: They use these fear tactics to make people hopelessly attached to their beliefs. Most people are never told to meditate on freeing themselves from their attachment to their beliefs.  Instead this deep-seeded emotional appeal is usually broken by bad experiences.

I was a fundy, then I was a moderate believer, then I was agnostic. For me, I didn't entirely lose faith in God until everything in my life went to shit, and I tried praying, and I realized for sure: There was absolutely no one helping me.  So, obviously I don't want you to go through hard times so I'll suggest another tactic I've picked up. Meditation.

Focus on this concept:

Absolutely nothing is permanent. Whatever you attach yourself to (such as fear lodged in your brain by the church) WILL end someday. One day you will die and your fears will die with you. Knowing this impermanence, also realize that this attachment will cause you suffering, and that freedom from this suffering lies in detaching yourself.  With all these cognitive realizations, practice meditation. Master your own mind, and truth and happiness will follow.

Well I have all kinds of Buddhist biases, but I highly recommend meditation. It makes sense to me: At least it's not shit about talking snakes.  

Quote from: "KebertX"But Full-Fledged Atheist converts usually need something bad to turn them all the way away from god.

I disagree with this much-bandied stereotype.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "KebertX"But Full-Fledged Atheist converts usually need something bad to turn them all the way away from god.

I disagree with this much-bandied stereotype.

I second this objection.  Can we get some data on this assertion before we start perpetuating the tired old stereotype of atheists being petulant children who wandered from the flock because of personal tragedy?

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "KebertX"But Full-Fledged Atheist converts usually need something bad to turn them all the way away from god.

I disagree with this much-bandied stereotype.

I have to agree with you. Nothing bad happened to me to make me lose my faith; it was just a matter of reading so much about science and things and doing my best to think critically that I came to atheism. The worst thing that happened to me along the way was that I lost my faith, considering I wasn't yet strong enough to deal with it.   Then again, I guess you could argue I'm not a "full-fledged" atheist since a small part of me still wants to cling to some sort of religious hope.

NothingSacred, I know how you feel, because I went through something similar years ago when I gave up Christianity for another faith. What helped me get over the idea of Hell/divine punishment was just remembering that not being Christian does not mean I am not a bad person, and if me trying to be as best a person as I can without faith is not good enough for "God" then there's nothing I can do. You'd think "He"'d actually consider someone who did good things without hope for reward in an afterlife more worthy of praise than someone who only did good things because they were afraid of Hell. I also once or twice said aloud to an empty room, "God, if You're real, please let me find You so I can serve You," or something like that. While it feels silly, it did help me because after six years or so no sign ever came. You also have to figure that even if gods did make the world, they clearly don't mind that people don't believe in them because, if they really cared enough about having your faith that they would send you to Hell for not believing, they would simply obliterate all the false religions. Sure religious folk will say they're there to test faith, etc., but I can't imagine such a powerful being as a god is supposed to be would be petty enough to condemn people to eternal suffering for not believing when he makes it so hard to really get to know him in the first place.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "KebertX"But Full-Fledged Atheist converts usually need something bad to turn them all the way away from god.

I disagree with this much-bandied stereotype.

I second this objection.  Can we get some data on this assertion before we start perpetuating the tired old stereotype of atheists being petulant children who wandered from the flock because of personal tragedy?

I've yet to meet an atheist that became and atheist because something bad happened. I find more people where bad experiences strengthen their faith rather than weaken their faith. Bad experiences have very little to do with belief, "Think someone could spend half their life in a slam with a horse bit in their mouth and not believe? Think he could start out in some liquor store trash bin with an umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and not believe? Got it all wrong, holy man. I absolutely believe in God... And I absolutely hate the fucker." - Riddick. While that's a quote from a movie, I think it's something that is very possible, because if the Christian god ended up with a sufficient amount of reasonable evidence for it's existence, I would accept that god as true and hate the fucker at the same time.

I think you'll find that a better hasty generalization for atheists is that they don't believe in god because there isn't a sufficient (none really) amount of reasonable evidence.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"As former theists know all too well, many religions have a built in system of fear to retain their members. I was always taught that those who left the faith(christianity) lost the protection of god in their lives and horrific things would happen to them. I know this isn't the case intellectually. I have left religion and I am in general happy. The problem is in the back of my mind Pascal's wager pops up. I know the various flaws with this wager but on some days thinking through it rationally doesn't seem to help. I've had fear ingrained in me since I can remember. My earliest memory of church was my youth pastor telling a five year old boy(who giggled at a mentally challenged student's runny nose) that he would go to hell if he wasn't nicer. He talked about the eternal  burning, lonliness, and suffering. I was allowed to sit through the church reading the book of revelation as a child and I was taught that god was going to burn all of the non christians to death. Lately I haven't been able to sleep without nightmares that Jesus is torturing me or that god is going to kill my husband in his sleep. It is very frustrating because rationally I can say hell has about the same % chance of exsisting as unicorns or the easter bunny but it still strikes me on an emotional level.I recently watched a documentary about members of a cult who got out. I found myself feeling the same way they did. Even though I attended a very mainstream even liberal christian church I'm convinced religion in general is a big cult. Those of you who are further along in recovering from religion, in what ways can I teach myself to ignore the lies I was taught?  

Hi, I didn't read all the other replies because I wanted to speak from my own heart and experience.  Pascal's wager fails mainly on the premise that you could believe in god no matter what.  It's no more easy for me to believe in god as it is for me to believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy.  So, to me it couldn't possibly help for me to go to church on the hopes I could fool an omnicient being, if I wanted to.

My suggestion is that you keep reading as much as you can get your hands on from Atheist writers.  The more you distance yourself from the cult writings of the religious, the better off you will be.  See, Christians have had 2000 years to perfect their psychological warfare on mankind, and perfect it they have.  It is the same as any other cult, it's all about taking away individual thought and replacing it with a central doctrine.  Most cultist are known to fight for that central doctrine, sometimes LONG after they have been freed from the cult.  It takes time and effort, and a the willingness to let go of the crap and replace it with truth and openmindedness.  Good Luck.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "NothingSacred"

Quote from: "Tank"How long were you a christian and how long ago did you stop being a christian?

22 1/2 years but i had questions from an early age but i supressed them ...its been about 6 mos since i left

It's absolutly to be expected that you'll still be deep in the grip of serious cognitive dissonance at the moment, the nightmares are all part of your sub-conscious coming to terms with a massive realignment of your world view. One way of helping yourself get over this is to discuss these issues with others just as you are doing here. Another way is to meditate on the problem while awake thus doing what the dreams are trying to do but in a controlled way. I think I know somebody who can help with this.

I think after some evaluation ive worked out what the dream meant. I had a friend who was an atheist who asked me how it felt to be a christian in a relationship because you have to love god more than you love other people. I thought about it alot and his question haunted me.I thought to myself (still being a chrisian) that I easily loved my husband,my parents,and siblings more than god. I began to think about god being a jealous god and taking away the things you love more than him.It terrified me for quite some time. I guess it still does. If god were real and thats how he operated i'd have no choice but to think he was a prick and not worth following anyway.

Quote from: "KebertX"I think a better question would be: How did you go from being a Christian to an Atheist?

You can turn a fundamentalist into a liberal believer with education. And A liberal believer can become an agnostic with critical thinking. But Full-Fledged Atheist converts usually need something bad to turn them all the way away from god.  Faith does not appeal to the intellect. It never has. Faith is a series of internally verifiable truths that only appeal to your emotions.  When faith no longer appeals to your emotions on any level, then you are entirely free of religious faith.

Ironically, I get this line of thought from a different religion: Buddhism. This religion taught me that the way to end suffering is to free yourself from attachment.  Organized Religion does the opposite: They use these fear tactics to make people hopelessly attached to their beliefs. Most people are never told to meditate on freeing themselves from their attachment to their beliefs.  Instead this deep-seeded emotional appeal is usually broken by bad experiences.

I was a fundy, then I was a moderate believer, then I was agnostic. For me, I didn't entirely lose faith in God until everything in my life went to shit, and I tried praying, and I realized for sure: There was absolutely no one helping me.  So, obviously I don't want you to go through hard times so I'll suggest another tactic I've picked up. Meditation.

Focus on this concept:

Absolutely nothing is permanent. Whatever you attach yourself to (such as fear lodged in your brain by the church) WILL end someday. One day you will die and your fears will die with you. Knowing this impermanence, also realize that this attachment will cause you suffering, and that freedom from this suffering lies in detaching yourself.  With all these cognitive realizations, practice meditation. Master your own mind, and truth and happiness will follow.

Well I have all kinds of Buddhist biases, but I highly recommend meditation. It makes sense to me: At least it's not shit about talking snakes.  

The first step in my becoming an atheist was me stubling upon a clip from derren browns trick or treat where he uses hynosis ( an interest of mine) to convert atheists into christians. I wondered how he did it so i studied up on conditioning people's behavior with music, speech , loaded words,and social conditioning . I saw the link between the methods used in hynosis and the circumstances that lead me to "accept christ as my personal savior".a book called the god virus helped me in that . I learned that my conversion was on an emotional basis and when i began to seek concrete proof of god i found none. I also read the bible and that was one of the final nails in the coffin.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"I think after some evaluation ive worked out what the dream meant. I had a friend who was an atheist who asked me how it felt to be a christian in a relationship because you have to love god more than you love other people. I thought about it alot and his question haunted me.I thought to myself (still being a chrisian) that I easily loved my husband,my parents,and siblings more than god. I began to think about god being a jealous god and taking away the things you love more than him.It terrified me for quite some time. I guess it still does. If god were real and thats how he operated i'd have no choice but to think he was a prick and not worth following anyway.

Good to read that you're coming to terms with the reality of life that those around you are the ones to care about, not some mythical sky daddy. Please don't take this in a patronising way, it's not meant to be. From the little I know of you, from what you have written here you seem to have matured a lot in the recent past. What you wrote about yourself in the 10 things thread. Being somebody you were not to please your father, your diminutive stature, your need to please others. Are these things less of a problem for you now? I think that is the case and that you have come (are coming) to realise that you have a right to your own life, simply to be you. Sometimes answering the question 'Who am I?' is the most difficult thing of all because it is so easy to slip into being what others want you to be. It's easy and dare I say lazy and lots of us do it to some extent or another. It's not easy to determine who and what you are and then to show the world that person. People fear rejection, we are a social animal and lots of our sophisticated evolved behaviours are aligned with the need to perform well in a group, this can make us too subservient sometimes. You don't have to feel guilty for who you are.  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "NothingSacred"I think after some evaluation ive worked out what the dream meant. I had a friend who was an atheist who asked me how it felt to be a christian in a relationship because you have to love god more than you love other people. I thought about it alot and his question haunted me.I thought to myself (still being a chrisian) that I easily loved my husband,my parents,and siblings more than god. I began to think about god being a jealous god and taking away the things you love more than him.It terrified me for quite some time. I guess it still does. If god were real and thats how he operated i'd have no choice but to think he was a prick and not worth following anyway.

Good to read that you're coming to terms with the reality of life that those around you are the ones to care about, not some mythical sky daddy. Please don't take this in a patronising way, it's not meant to be. From the little I know of you, from what you have written here you seem to have matured a lot in the recent past. What you wrote about yourself in the 10 things thread. Being somebody you were not to please your father, your diminutive stature, your need to please others. Are these things less of a problem for you now? I think that is the case and that you have come (are coming) to realise that you have a right to your own life, simply to be you. Sometimes answering the question 'Who am I?' is the most difficult thing of all because it is so easy to slip into being what others want you to be. It's easy and dare I say lazy and lots of us do it to some extent or another. It's not easy to determine who and what you are and then to show the world that person. People fear rejection, we are a social animal and lots of our sophisticated evolved behaviours are aligned with the need to perform well in a group, this can make us too subservient sometimes. You don't have to feel guilty for who you are.  :P ) .When I was just starting to peak my head out of the cave and into the sunlight I didn't understand how people could be happy without a god but looking back I realize that the "joy" i experienced was just me putting on a happy face to convert others. Anywho before I get into my life story I'm really glad this forum exsists. It's theraputic to know that I'm not the only person experiencing these things. Everyone is really open and kind....which sometimes makes me wonder if im being love bombed like a new church member (im paranoid now about people's motives ). It seems genuine though.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"Everyone is really open and kind....which sometimes makes me wonder if im being love bombed like a new church member (im paranoid now about people's motives :devil:  You're right to be wary of people's motives, I've been screwed on line badly twice. The simple answer is don't get involved at the personal level online, save that for real life. I'm a pretty good judge of character in RL but the narrow communication band (written word) makes it very easy for one to fill in the gaps with one's desires, to read things into people's apparent behaviour that you want to see that really aren't there. If you ever want to see a great film about forcing an idealised character onto somebody in your own mind then dig out 'Being There' (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078841/). It's a comedy of errors based around people seeing in others what they want them to be, I personally rate it as one of the top 10 film ever made, I watch it a couple of time a year. Once you seen it you'll never hear the phrase 'I like to watch.' and keep a straight face ever again!

I'd love-bomb you but my B52 is in the hangar having an engine overhaul.  You'll have to settle for a friendly hand-grenade.

I inderstand how you fell Nothing Sacred.  When I gave up the beief in Jesus it took me a while to overcome the fear of "what if"  Later on I could give up the belief in god... I still have the "what ifs" days sometimes, but I´m learning to see those moments as an aquired need of superstition.  You´ll recover in due time.  Do as the members of the forum tell you, spend more time reading on the suject to help you rationalize the process.

"Everyone is really open and kind....which sometimes makes me wonder if im being love bombed like a new church member (im paranoid now about people's motives ). It seems genuine though."

Trust me, we have no motives, we don't seek to deconvert you, convert you, or control you.  The biggest difference between what you will get here and from Christians is that we have no "need" for you, nor any doctrine that tells us to be nice or to convert you.  We like you because we can like you, for who you are, not for what you bring to us, or do for us, or contribute to our cause or a cult.  In case you haven't noticed, we are about as divergent a group of people as you will find, and sometimes the ONLY real thing we have in common is our humanity, which is how it should be in the real world.  So, here check my hands and my "motives" you won't find a love bomb at all, but a genuine, real, and healthy respect for you as a member of the human race.  Hope that helps.

Quote from: "NothingSacred"Everyone is really open and kind....which sometimes makes me wonder if im being love bombed like a new church member (im paranoid now about people's motives ;)  ;)  so I can't add much other that to hold on and keep thinking/reading/questioning