Happy Atheist Forum

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm)

I never thought the above would get past the proposal stage but my cheese-eating, onion-loving neighbours seem to be determined in their quest to get this put through. I'm currently sitting on the fence with this issue whereas before, i was for the proposal.

Anyone think this will get past the European parliament?

Great news.  As I understand it, non muslim women that travel to Iral or Saudi Arabia, ARE forced to wear those veils... it is the law there, and I guess we should respect it... but why on earth should a non muslim nation have to tolerate this practice which advoctates for the inequality of men and women and diminishes women?

The muslims will make a lot of noise, but I think the west should start drawing lines defending its values.

I'm against it. Don't make a law that go against or for religion. Just like making a law that forces private places to allow burka wearers into their establishment would be wrong, forcing people to not be able to wear a specific kind of garment is wrong. It just seems biased towards a specific religion and I hope it doesn't pass despite me not living any where near there.

Yeah, I don't support this.  While I appreciate the argument that they make woman wear the article of clothing in their countries so it's perfectly fair to make the garment illegal in other countries, I don't think it's right that they make women wear it in the first place, so using that as a reason to justify forcing whoever might want to wear it to not wear it in public seems just as equally unfair.  Like Davin said, I think that any business ought to be allowed to ban burqa wearers if they wish, but making it so that these women can't wear the garment in public no matter what is a condition of freedom that I find unacceptable and very well might lead to worse lives for the Islamic women in France.  I think EVERYONE deserves freedom, even religious people I generally greatly disagree with.  I don't think the fight for Islamic women's rights is going to be helped by a law which takes away an Islamic woman's right to wear what she potentially wants to wear.

I am unsure if this is a good move.

Then again, as I remember, all religious clothing or jewellery is banned in public schools in France. Which seems completely fair.

I do find the ideas behind the veil completely sexist for men and women. Then again, that is my personal opinion. I can not impose that on anyone. It is wrong.

If the law is "all or nothing" in terms of all religious clothing and jewellery, I see no problem.

Then again, do we admire or despise the French attitude of : "Be like us, or get lost"?

80/20 against the legislation. Emotionally I love the idea of banning the full face veil, rationally I know it's the wrong thing to do. Forcing people to go against their personal wishes when what they wish to do does no harm to others is wrong. I don't want to be told what I can and can not wear so I can't tell others what they can and can not wear, end of story. If this legislation were to be created in the UK I would wear a burka in protest.

Thank you guys for making a light shine on me.  I didn´t quite considered enough the fact that people should be free to wear what they like.  But still I think about what the veil/burka stands for... I could only compare it to the clothing or patch that jews were forced to wear during certain times and regimes.  The veil or burka are not a matter of choice for the muslim woman, it is enforced by religion... in some muslim countries, not wearing it would be punishable by death or by a public whiping.  I still belive the West should draw lines to defend and protect its values... now is the burka or veil... in the future the muslims will want to have sharia tribunals... and later on parades with the whips with knifes to commemorate the battle that the sunnis won over the shia.  But ok,you had me convinced that it shouldn´t be a crime.

Quote from: "Tank"If this legislation were to be created in the UK I would wear a burka in protest.

If this legislation comes to be created ANYWHERE I'll wear a burka in protest.

I heard that nowhere in the Koran does it say muslim women have to wear a full-face veil.

Anyone able to confirm this?

I guess we'll see how the French public vote on this. Most seem in favour of the ban.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "Tank"If this legislation were to be created in the UK I would wear a burka in protest.

If this legislation comes to be created ANYWHERE I'll wear a burka in protest.

Pictures or it never happened! Ah! We couldn't tell it was you! Bah foiled again!

I found a vid of Heretical Rants in a burka:

[youtube:1vuo7y56]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHbqEIr15NM[/youtube:1vuo7y56]

 

On balance, I'm against the ban on civil liberties grounds. As others have said, people should have a right to wear what they want.

However, I support banning the burqa in schools, and also support the right of employers to ban the burqa in the workplace.

I'm against this sort of law.

If it does pass, how many French Muslim males will resort to simply forcing their wives to stay home?

Karadan, it is true, the koran doesn´t specifically mandate the veils or bhurkas, but here are the texts:

Surah 24:30-31:  "and say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty or ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimar (head scarf or veil) over their bossoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..."

Surah 33: 59:  "Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed..."

It seems from the second surah that men should also wear a veil or bhurka.  The garments of dress code vary from country to country.

I guess the obvious thing to point out here is that passages like the above are so open to interpretation that you could glean almost anything you want from that kind of writing. So, the original reason for the male dominated religion of islam to force their women to hide under cloth is the above tenuous nonsense?

And many islamic women will fight for this right...

 

Quote from: "karadan"I guess the obvious thing to point out here is that passages like the above are so open to interpretation that you could glean almost anything you want from that kind of writing. So, the original reason for the male dominated religion of islam to force their women to hide under cloth is the above tenuous nonsense?

And many islamic women will fight for this right...

 :sigh:

I found an interview with the "vice-chair of British Muslims for Secular Democracy". I do not know anything about this organization so I am unsure of the creditability of this interview.

The interview in question (is quite short) and is the second one down on this page. The top one is a pro argument while the lower one is against. (http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/01/201012515127437808.html)

I'm for the ban, even with a nagging unease. Quite simply, I can't imagine anything more isolationist and divisive than a tent with a couple of eye holes worn as a dress, not to mention the fact that talking to someone as if through a letterbox is quite unnerving.

The whole rationale behind it is also bewildering, "The women are so beautiful that to stop them getting harassed or the men getting tempted, the women shall wear garments to make them look as ridiculous as possible". I can't help but feel a little insulted at the insinuation that men wouldn't be able to hold themselves back either.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of the ban.  

Gender discrimination really upsets me.  I was told I didn't need to bother with college because some man would take care of me.  I won't go into it right now but that attitude screwed me out of two overlapping full-ride scholarships.  Yes, I'm bitter.

We're talking about giving religious gender discrimination special protection.

But I believe in freedom of religion.

But then again, I believe that raising a child in a religion that fosters gender discrimination is child abuse.

Then there's personal freedom.

And there's the worry that if the veil were made illegal in public places how many Muslim women and girls would be forbidden to leave their homes?

I would love for the practice of veiling to disappear but I don't know if banning it would work.

Quote from: "SSY"I'm for the ban, even with a nagging unease. Quite simply, I can't imagine anything more isolationist and divisive than a tent with a couple of eye holes worn as a dress, not to mention the fact that talking to someone as if through a letterbox is quite unnerving.

The whole rationale behind it is also bewildering, "The women are so beautiful that to stop them getting harassed or the men getting tempted, the women shall wear garments to make them look as ridiculous as possible". I can't help but feel a little insulted at the insinuation that men wouldn't be able to hold themselves back either.

My feelings on the issue are mixed, but I'm real uncomfortable with making fashion a subject of law.  I do, however, think that they should be banned in buildings or areas with a raised risk of crime, like banks, government buildings, airports, etc.

Islamic Burka Ban: 67% Of Britons Agree (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Burka-Ban-Two-Thirds-Believe-Islamic-Garment-Should-Be-Outlawed-Five-News-And-YouGov-Survey-Says/Article/201007315666275?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15666275_Burka_Ban:_Two-Thirds_Believe_Islamic_Garment_Should_Be_Outlawed,_Five_News_And_YouGov_Survey_Says) - Apparently.

When I look at someone wearing a burqa, I see Lavar Burton wearing a slave collar. It disgusts me that anyone can be forced to wear something like that.

On the other hand, I can't support the idea of outlawing it. Outlawing the burqa just exchanges religious oppression for government oppression. It's not the government's business to decide how people dress. That's what they do in the parts of the world where women can be executed for not wearing this ridiculous costume. Do we want to lower ourselves to the same standard as a clique of theocratic dictators who long for the good ol' days of the 6th century?

If France wants to deal with Islamic oppression of women in their country, they should come down harshly on all forms of discrimination and violence against women from those muslims who demand they wear a burqa. If a man attacks a woman for not wearing one, put him in jail for assault and add an extra 10 years because it was religiously motivated. Attack the problem, not the victims of the problem.

^^^ Well said.

Quote from: "Rooker"When I look at someone wearing a burqa, I see Lavar Burton wearing a slave collar. It disgusts me that anyone can be forced to wear something like that.

On the other hand, I can't support the idea of outlawing it. Outlawing the burqa just exchanges religious oppression for government oppression. It's not the government's business to decide how people dress. That's what they do in the parts of the world where women can be executed for not wearing this ridiculous costume. Do we want to lower ourselves to the same standard as a clique of theocratic dictators who long for the good ol' days of the 6th century?

If France wants to deal with Islamic oppression of women in their country, they should come down harshly on all forms of discrimination and violence against women from those muslims who demand they wear a burqa. If a man attacks a woman for not wearing one, put him in jail for assault and add an extra 10 years because it was religiously motivated. Attack the problem, not the victims of the problem.

+1

I don't know how to feel about this. Men shouldn't be aloud to force women to wear a full body veil, but don't you freethinkers think women should be aloud to make their own decisions about what to wear? Then again, head scarves are still aloud, so this would only outlaw the types that cover the full body and the face, which I do consider extreme in certain situations. In Saudi Arabia, it's perfectly acceptable to express your modesty by not sticking out of the crowd, but in France, wearing a full body veil has the opposite effect: drawing a lot of attention to yourself.  So you can just put on a Hijab, express your modesty without rubbing everyone's nose in it.

Let's forget about the Middle East for a second (countries where they have sharia law). In 80% of the Muslim world, women are really encouraged to make their own decision about whether or not to cover their head.  Most of them do, (not because of gender inequality, or oppression, or because some man is forcing them). They do it because they want to, because it's suggested in the Qu'ran, and most women in their family do as well. There's a decent argument to be made for the whole 'modesty' thing. Freeing yourself from superficialness, or objectification.

In countries where you are made to cover yourself, you get the opposite. It's superficial and objectifying to tell the women of your community that they have to dress a certain way, or else their whores who will have full penalty of the law imposed on them. Which brings me full circle back to Fracne, who are telling the women in their community that they CAN'T dress a certain way, or else their brainwashed disruptions... who will penalty of the law enforced on them.

I'm all in favor of not allowing men to force women to wear full body veils, but I truly think the women should be aloud to wear what they want.  I don't see it as brainwashing, but just a different perspective on appearance from a different culture. That being said, I think it would be interesting to start a new thread for why Muslim Women would want to wear head scarves, or even burkas.

And already we're off the races (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7735607/France-has-first-burka-rage-incident.html):

QuoteFrance has first 'burka rage' incident
A 60-year-old lawyer ripped a Muslim woman's Islamic veil off in a row in a clothing shop in what police say is France's first case of "burka rage".

Quote from: "Rooker"And already we're off the races (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7735607/France-has-first-burka-rage-incident.html):

QuoteFrance has first 'burka rage' incident
A 60-year-old lawyer ripped a Muslim woman's Islamic veil off in a row in a clothing shop in what police say is France's first case of "burka rage".

Bloody hell! Lets hope it is an isolated incident.

I didn't know Belgium had banned the veil in public places already.