Happy Atheist Forum

I have a gf that I really like....ok love.  She doesn't go to church, or talk about her beliefs often....but I think it's out of respect for my beliefs.

I remember when I told her I was vegan, and that if we were to ever have a child, I would be unacceptable to raise my kid in a meat eating environment. She seemed opposed to it, but I'm really not flexible.  Luckily, she eventually came around and became vegan herself. I would like to note that it was never my intention to convert her into a vegan, but when she did, I became open to pursuing this relationship on a more serious level.

We have talked about marriage, and she is set on having a wedding in a church with her family's pastor. But I am afraid this will lead to more... This is another area I am not flexible. I would humor her and her family with the wedding, but I don't want to go any further than that.

I know what you're thinking.... "quit being a pussy and talk to her about it".  I will. But it would be nice to hear if any of you have had a similar situation, or any advice on approaching this would be helpful.

Thanks.

Sorry no help here. Wife is woo free and always has been. Although she stills buys Crystals and the like  

Quote from: "Tank"Sorry no help here. Wife is woo free and always has been. Although she stills buys Crystals and the like  

Good for you....must be nice.

I will say, my gf has a phd and is no dummy.....but it still amazes me that she still considers herself christian.  

No crystals here.

Well after 30 years of marriage there are times when one wishes for a bit of friction. There isn't a lot to go from after 'Do you agree?', 'Yes.'  :D  As long as atheism/theism doesn't become a 'hot button' issue between you then I don't think it's going to be a serious issue.

The ONLY question you need to ask yourself is this 'Do I ever want there to be a time when this person is not part of my life?' if the answer is no you're ok, if the answer is yes or maybe then you already have a serious problem, because a lifetime commitment is a 100% commitment to the other person. It has nothing to do with you but all about her, if you are not prepared to commit utterly to the welfare and well being of your significant other you will truly miss out on the best possible relationship with another human being.

If you're worried about her theism is that simply a symptom of your own possible doubts about your ability to commit to the ultimate relationship, are you just using her theism as an excuse?

That got rather heavy! Just typing what came into my head.

I almost did. She was lovely in every sense of the word. Jesus (and her mum) got in the way though.  

She posted photos of her recent holiday on facebook last week. I'm happy to see she now has a boyfriend (must be a christian as her mum seems to have approved it). The funny thing is, in almost every one of the holiday snaps of them together, you can see the demonic mum hovering in the background.

I think i dodged a bullet.

The wife's a nontheist, but she doesn't like to call herself an atheist because she's Chinese. In her view the idea of being a theist was never really on the table, so to be "a-theist" doesn't make much sense to her. She's glad I'm an atheist, though, to be honest. She sees how a lot of theists (conservative theists, mostly) act in this country and can't imagine having to deal with that. So, not much help there.

Dated a Catholic for a long time but, like most Catholics I know, she was really only Catholic on holidays and when families came around. Again, not much help.

Good luck!  :devil:

The wife's a catholic. She's quite surprised that I advocate feminism more than her.

The wife's a catholic. She's quite surprised that my advocacy for feminism is more than hers.

My girlfriend of 3 years is a Christian, but it doesn't really bother me. She hates going to church, and hates it when her parents talk to her about any religious-moral based deeds to do in life. I've talked a lot about why I'm a non-believer and she mostly agrees with me. Heck, she's probably a non-believer herself, although she won't admit it. We've talked about marriage before, and I honestly do think she's the one. I plan on marrying her, and really don't care if it's in a church. If her parents want it, then that's fine. I'll still have to have my traditional Chinese wedding though. Chinese weddings are SOOOO much more fun and entertaining than a boring church wedding.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"Chinese weddings are SOOOO much more fun and entertaining than a boring church wedding.

Amen to that. Red envelopes whaaaaaaaaaaaaat!

My wife was an atheist before I was, but we were both atheists when we met, so that's cool.  My first wife's father was a Baptist minister, which was awkward, but we managed.

The only thing I see as a problem with your relationship is that you seem to be inflexible, I'd be careful there, but that's just my opinion.  I find that absolutes are a real killer where relationships are concerned, it's a sure fire way to cause strife.  Just my opinion.

Quote from: "Martin TK"My wife was an atheist before I was, but we were both atheists when we met, so that's cool.  My first wife's father was a Baptist minister, which was awkward, but we managed.

The only thing I see as a problem with your relationship is that you seem to be inflexible, I'd be careful there, but that's just my opinion.  I find that absolutes are a real killer where relationships are concerned, it's a sure fire way to cause strife.  Just my opinion.

There are two things that I am inflexible about.... my veganism and atheism.  Other than that, I am a very open minded dude. I f'n went to twilight with her the other day. .

I don't think there is an inherent problem with relationships where the people have different religious or political views, etc... so long as both parties are respectful to the other.  And, as Tank said, there isn't really anywhere to go after "I agree".

I have to say, I find this whole notion of inflexibility very contrary to the idea of love.  Love is supposed to be unconditional.  Asking someone to completely change their lifestyle seems unreasonable to me.  You either love someone, or you don't.  Telling someone you can only be with them if they're a vegan or an atheist seems ridiculous if everything else about them is pleasing to you.  I also find the idea of forcing veganism on kids kind of scary-how is that any different than a parent who forces religion on a child without allowing them to explore other options?  It's fine not to have faith in God, but I think it's necessary to have at least a little faith in other people by allowing them the freedom to think for themselves and make their own decisions without piling on conditions to your acceptance of them.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"I don't think there is an inherent problem with relationships where the people have different religious or political views, etc... so long as both parties are respectful to the other.  And, as Tank said, there isn't really anywhere to go after "I agree".

I have to say, I find this whole notion of inflexibility very contrary to the idea of love.  Love is supposed to be unconditional.  Asking someone to completely change their lifestyle seems unreasonable to me.  You either love someone, or you don't.  Telling someone you can only be with them if they're a vegan or an atheist seems ridiculous if everything else about them is pleasing to you.  I also find the idea of forcing veganism on kids kind of scary-how is that any different than a parent who forces religion on a child without allowing them to explore other options?  It's fine not to have faith in God, but I think it's necessary to have at least a little faith in other people by allowing them the freedom to think for themselves and make their own decisions without piling on conditions to your acceptance of them.

I'm not sure if you read my original post that carefully. I never asked her to become vegan. She became vegan on her own. In fact when we first started dating, she wasn't eating much meat to begin with.  As with being an atheist, I realize I am the minority on this issue and respect others beliefs...Being vegan or atheist isn't a prerequisite for me to date someone, but in order for me to take the relationship to another level.....it is a must.

And honestly, you shouldn't criticize my beliefs about raising my children vegan. There is nothing similar to forcing religion on kids.  I believe in the ethical treatment of animals, and detest the conditions they raise these creatures in, and all of the hormones they inject into them.  When they are old enough to make an informed decision, then I will respect that.

But thanks for your input....I guess

In the risk of mild thread derailment, here's my two-cents..

I'd never get serious with someone who felt their absolutism should be implanted on any children we might have. I'd have no problem dating a vegan or muslim or hells angel just as long as their lifestyle didn't directly conflict with my lifestyle. I'm pretty easy going so as long as any potential date isn't so radical that 99% of their time is spent on veganism/animal welfare/feminism, etc, then I'm sure there'd be plenty of other stuff we'd be able to connect with. If they told me I'd have to become vegetarian for the relationship to continue, then I'd end it right there. I'd never think of telling them to start playing lots of computer games, for instance.

If we were to have kids, I'd hope my partner would be able to let our offspring choose how they want to lead their lives. If the child wanted to become a vegan because he/she didn't like the idea of animals being killed in slaughter houses, then I'd be happy with that. It would also be up to me to inform the child that we need to eat meat or at least, dairy products as children to get the best possible nutritional spectrum. I'd also let them know that not all meat comes from nasty slaughter houses and that many places provide meat from humane sources. After all, we are all omnivores.

But that's the thing-forcing veganism on children is EXACTLY like forcing religion on them, whether you see it that way or not.  You're passionate about the ethical treatment of animals, and other people are passionate about Jesus.  What it comes down to is the fanaticism.  The beliefs may be different, but the dogmatism is pretty much the same.  You're not willing to bend on the atheism and veganism thing.  Fine.  But you want other people to adopt your views (i.e. your girlfriend and future children), without being willing to accept the views they hold as well.  You're willing to allow a religious wedding, but are afraid it might go further than that?  Oh please.  What you really sound like is an asshole.  It's just very convenient that your girlfriend became vegan, AFTER you'd expressed your opinion on it.  If I were her, I'd be running the other direction.  The end point is that you aren't and weren't willing to accept her as a meat eating Christian, and that's fucked up.  You're no better than a religious person who is unwilling to respect atheists.  Again, you either love people or you don't.  And if you really loved her, you'd love her even if she also loved hamburgers and Jesus.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"But that's the thing-forcing veganism on children is EXACTLY like forcing religion on them, whether you see it that way or not.  You're passionate about the ethical treatment of animals, and other people are passionate about Jesus.  What it comes down to is the fanaticism.  The beliefs may be different, but the dogmatism is pretty much the same.  You're not willing to bend on the atheism and veganism thing.  Fine.  But you want other people to adopt your views (i.e. your girlfriend and future children), without being willing to accept the views they hold as well.  You're willing to allow a religious wedding, but are afraid it might go further than that?  Oh please.  What you really sound like is an asshole.  It's just very convenient that your girlfriend became vegan, AFTER you'd expressed your opinion on it.  If I were her, I'd be running the other direction.  The end point is that you aren't and weren't willing to accept her as a meat eating Christian, and that's fucked up.  You're no better than a religious person who is unwilling to respect atheists.  Again, you either love people or you don't.  And if you really loved her, you'd love her even if she also loved hamburgers and Jesus.

Philo just wrote what I was thinking. When you have kids and they get invited to a birthday party at McDonalds what will you do?

I was trying to be a bit more diplomatic, but I have to say BRAVO to all those who answered so far.  I find that absolutism is not healthy no matter what.  I only advocate that when someone is absolutely against a habit or an action that will directly result in imminent harm.  I, like some of you, have some absolutes that I would not tollerate, but I wouldn't begin a relationship with a person who participated in certain activities.  I would NEVER get involved with a person who smoked, only because I had to bury my Mother after she suffered from lung cancer, and it was preventable.  I would never get involved with a Fundamentalist Christian, mainly because I know what the future with a person like that would most likely be, and I think I could find someone more compatible.  If that makes me a judgemental person, then I guess I'm lucky to be with the woman I'm with.  SMILE.

It's one thing to chose not to associate with people whose lifestyle or activities you disagree with.  THAT is not judgmental.  It's a whole different ball game to become romantically involved with one of them, and then expect them to change for you after the fact.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"But that's the thing-forcing veganism on children is EXACTLY like forcing religion on them, whether you see it that way or not.  You're passionate about the ethical treatment of animals, and other people are passionate about Jesus.  What it comes down to is the fanaticism.  The beliefs may be different, but the dogmatism is pretty much the same.  You're not willing to bend on the atheism and veganism thing.  Fine.  But you want other people to adopt your views (i.e. your girlfriend and future children), without being willing to accept the views they hold as well.  You're willing to allow a religious wedding, but are afraid it might go further than that?  Oh please.  What you really sound like is an asshole.  It's just very convenient that your girlfriend became vegan, AFTER you'd expressed your opinion on it.  If I were her, I'd be running the other direction.  The end point is that you aren't and weren't willing to accept her as a meat eating Christian, and that's fucked up.  You're no better than a religious person who is unwilling to respect atheists.  Again, you either love people or you don't.  And if you really loved her, you'd love her even if she also loved hamburgers and Jesus.

As much as I agree with the context of your reply, I'm not convinced that LOVE alone is enough to keep a relationship solid.  I have to advocate that having things in common, similar views on life and religion, are also important; however, saying that I have seen marriages work that I wouldn't have given a chance in hell to work.  So, I guess it's up to the two people in the relationship.

I think my biggest problem with the original post is the absolutism toward children.  I find that parents who have such unbendable rules, whether they be food, religion, education, or social; often find that it sets the table for children to look for ways to circumvent the "rules."  I also find that making absolutes before you have children will often make a liar out of you.  For instance, when I was young, I would say that I would NEVER allow my children to act unruly in public; boy was I made to look foolish on more than one occasion.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"It's one thing to chose not to associate with people whose lifestyle or activities you disagree with.  THAT is not judgmental.  It's a whole different ball game to become romantically involved with one of them, and then expect them to change for you after the fact.

I completely AGREE with you on that.

Quote from: "Martin TK"For instance, when I was young, I would say that I would NEVER allow my children to act unruly in public; boy was I made to look foolish on more than one occasion.

Nothing you are ever told about having kids comes anywhere near the reality of holding that first baby and the realisation that you really know nothing about what being a parent is really about  

My biggest issue with that first post would have to be the absolutism regarding children, too, for most of the reasons already mentioned.  And yeah, love is not always enough-having things in common definitely helps.  I just think it's very manipulative to get involved with someone, and then be like "Oh by the way, now that you love me and all, I can only take you seriously if you adopt my personal lifestyle choices."  Why does she have to be the one that bends?  It kind of reeks a little of male privilege, on top of everything else.  If you're not willing to date Christian meat eaters, than join a specialized dating service or something.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Martin TK"For instance, when I was young, I would say that I would NEVER allow my children to act unruly in public; boy was I made to look foolish on more than one occasion.

Nothing you are ever told about having kids comes anywhere near the reality of holding that first baby and the realisation that you really know nothing about what being a parent is really about  

You can say that again, I took care of younger siblings as a teen, but NOTHING prepared me for that first night at home with my first son, just me, him, and his mother.  I didn't sleep for a week, I was a mess.  It was the greatest time of my life.

Quote from: "Martin TK"You can say that again, I took care of younger siblings as a teen, but NOTHING prepared me for that first night at home with my first son, just me, him, and his mother.  I didn't sleep for a week, I was a mess.  It was the greatest time of my life.

Just thinking about my eldest daughter when she was couple of days old and thinking she's expecting my first grand child nominally 2 days after my 51st birthday in December. Quite choked up here, but in a nice way  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Martin TK"You can say that again, I took care of younger siblings as a teen, but NOTHING prepared me for that first night at home with my first son, just me, him, and his mother.  I didn't sleep for a week, I was a mess.  It was the greatest time of my life.

Just thinking about my eldest daughter when she was couple of days old and thinking she's expecting my first grand child nominally 2 days after my 51st birthday in December. Quite choked up here, but in a nice way  

Congrats, my friend! My son had his first son in December 2009, I was very proud of him and of my new grandson.  Pity that his Christian Fundamentalist wife thinks I am a heathen and forbids me from seeing my own grandson.  I'm not sure what she thinks will happen, it's not like I'm going to eat the kid or that he will self-combust in the presence of an atheist.  Unfortunately, my son, who was raised as a free-thinker and allowed to make his own choices, has fallen for the very same crap that is being discussed on this thread.  

I hope your relationship with your daughter is solid, I would not wish the empty feelings I have on anyone for any reason.  Thankfully, I have a wonderful wife now, who supports me, and I am a very strong-willed atheist who isn't about to allow anyone to hold the power of Jesus over my head.  I'll just wait until the kid is old enough to want to know his grandfather, then I'll show him that I am not the monster his Mother may have made me out to be.  Life is too short, I refuse to live it by someone else's rules.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"My biggest issue with that first post would have to be the absolutism regarding children, too, for most of the reasons already mentioned.  And yeah, love is not always enough-having things in common definitely helps.  I just think it's very manipulative to get involved with someone, and then be like "Oh by the way, now that you love me and all, I can only take you seriously if you adopt my personal lifestyle choices."  Why does she have to be the one that bends?  It kind of reeks a little of male privilege, on top of everything else.  If you're not willing to date Christian meat eaters, than join a specialized dating service or something.

We are definately on the same page here.

Quote from: "Martin TK"Congrats, my friend! My son had his first son in December 2009, I was very proud of him and of my new grandson.  Pity that his Christian Fundamentalist wife thinks I am a heathen and forbids me from seeing my own grandson.  I'm not sure what she thinks will happen, it's not like I'm going to eat the kid or that he will self-combust in the presence of an atheist.  Unfortunately, my son, who was raised as a free-thinker and allowed to make his own choices, has fallen for the very same crap that is being discussed on this thread.  

I hope your relationship with your daughter is solid, I would not wish the empty feelings I have on anyone for any reason.  Thankfully, I have a wonderful wife now, who supports me, and I am a very strong-willed atheist who isn't about to allow anyone to hold the power of Jesus over my head.  I'll just wait until the kid is old enough to want to know his grandfather, then I'll show him that I am not the monster his Mother may have made me out to be.  Life is too short, I refuse to live it by someone else's rules.

I can't imagine your family life with your daughter-in-law. I would be apoplectic. I admire your cool sir!

Fortunately my wife has always been an atheist and all my kids and their partners are also atheists so I'm not facing the issues that you are putting up with. I was quite proud of my son as he spent the last semester at Berkeley with a Muslim room mate because they just got on well with each other. His partner is the daughter of two Vietnamese boat people who met in America where she was born. I have a lovely bigotry free family  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Martin TK"Congrats, my friend! My son had his first son in December 2009, I was very proud of him and of my new grandson.  Pity that his Christian Fundamentalist wife thinks I am a heathen and forbids me from seeing my own grandson.  I'm not sure what she thinks will happen, it's not like I'm going to eat the kid or that he will self-combust in the presence of an atheist.  Unfortunately, my son, who was raised as a free-thinker and allowed to make his own choices, has fallen for the very same crap that is being discussed on this thread.  

I hope your relationship with your daughter is solid, I would not wish the empty feelings I have on anyone for any reason.  Thankfully, I have a wonderful wife now, who supports me, and I am a very strong-willed atheist who isn't about to allow anyone to hold the power of Jesus over my head.  I'll just wait until the kid is old enough to want to know his grandfather, then I'll show him that I am not the monster his Mother may have made me out to be.  Life is too short, I refuse to live it by someone else's rules.

I can't imagine your family life with your daughter-in-law. I would be apoplectic. I admire your cool sir!

Fortunately my wife has always been an atheist and all my kids and their partners are also atheists so I'm not facing the issues that you are putting up with. I was quite proud of my son as he spent the last semester at Berkeley with a Muslim room mate because they just got on well with each other. His partner is the daughter of two Vietnamese boat people who met in America where she was born. I have a lovely bigotry free family  

I knew that my family, brothers, sister, father, would never accept me as an atheist, even though they all had to know I was an atheist all along, I never went to church and I raised my own children to think for themselves.  I guess the hardest part for me is that my oldest son was the deeper thinker of my two boys, he and I had long discussions on theology, life, science, just about everything.  I was sure he would always be, at the least, an open minded person.  Now, my youngest son was always the kid who lived his life by the seat of his pants.  He went through life with a recklessness, he was a good student but only because it came naturally; and he today is the Atheist and would NEVER allow another person to have the kind of power over him that my oldest has allowed.  Go figure.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"But that's the thing-forcing veganism on children is EXACTLY like forcing religion on them, whether you see it that way or not.  You're passionate about the ethical treatment of animals, and other people are passionate about Jesus.  What it comes down to is the fanaticism.  The beliefs may be different, but the dogmatism is pretty much the same.  You're not willing to bend on the atheism and veganism thing.  Fine.  But you want other people to adopt your views (i.e. your girlfriend and future children), without being willing to accept the views they hold as well.  You're willing to allow a religious wedding, but are afraid it might go further than that?  Oh please.  What you really sound like is an asshole.  It's just very convenient that your girlfriend became vegan, AFTER you'd expressed your opinion on it.  If I were her, I'd be running the other direction.  The end point is that you aren't and weren't willing to accept her as a meat eating Christian, and that's fucked up.  You're no better than a religious person who is unwilling to respect atheists.  Again, you either love people or you don't.  And if you really loved her, you'd love her even if she also loved hamburgers and Jesus.

Wow, total thread derailment here... you guys are way off of the topic here now.  Now I feel I have to defend myself....again.

1) First of all, I did not force her to become vegan....I just want to re-establish this.  I have dated many meat eaters and god lovers in my day. But in order for me to start a family, I find it necessary to be able to find someone who shares my beliefs on the vegan topic since I will not raise my children to eat meat.

2) Second of all, Phila.....sorry, you just do not get it.  Not flexing on veganism is NOT like forcing religion on them.  When they are of age, I will let them make their own decision.  I do not want them to participate in the torturing and unethical treatment of animals while they are at a age when they do not understand. Seeing as you probably eat hamburgers and pork rinds, you are not in a position to judge me.  You are the one being like the judgemental asshole here.  I'm sorry if you are single and bitter.

Thanks for the namecalling...

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "philosoraptor"But that's the thing-forcing veganism on children is EXACTLY like forcing religion on them, whether you see it that way or not.  You're passionate about the ethical treatment of animals, and other people are passionate about Jesus.  What it comes down to is the fanaticism.  The beliefs may be different, but the dogmatism is pretty much the same.  You're not willing to bend on the atheism and veganism thing.  Fine.  But you want other people to adopt your views (i.e. your girlfriend and future children), without being willing to accept the views they hold as well.  You're willing to allow a religious wedding, but are afraid it might go further than that?  Oh please.  What you really sound like is an asshole.  It's just very convenient that your girlfriend became vegan, AFTER you'd expressed your opinion on it.  If I were her, I'd be running the other direction.  The end point is that you aren't and weren't willing to accept her as a meat eating Christian, and that's fucked up.  You're no better than a religious person who is unwilling to respect atheists.  Again, you either love people or you don't.  And if you really loved her, you'd love her even if she also loved hamburgers and Jesus.

Philo just wrote what I was thinking. When you have kids and they get invited to a birthday party at McDonalds what will you do?

I don't know that I would let them go to McDonalds..... but who knows.

Why did this turn into a vegan topic anyway?  That is not even an issue.....

I am trying to find out the best way to initiate a conversation about our religious beliefs.... I was trying to find out if any of you are in the same boat... I really don't think me being atheist is going to be a problem with her, but it would be nice to hear how some of you were dealing with a similar situation.

Oh, what a surprise.  Since I called you out for being a douche, I must be single and bitter.  I guess it will come as a surprise then when I tell you I've been with someone for seven years.  You're still missing the point-if there are certain things that you are not willing to accept in a person, than you have no business dating someone with those qualities and allowing it to get serious.  Period.  If you're unwilling to sacrifice your own beliefs or bend on them, you have no right to expect others to do what you yourself are unwilling to do, and the way your initial post came across very much read as if you're afraid you're girlfriend will *gasp* want to continue with her own religious views if you get married.

Incidentally, I was vegetarian for quite awhile.  It had a negative impact on my health, and my doctor advised me that I ought to consider eating meat again.  So I did.  I don't think there's any shame in this.  So you're comment that I'm probably the type of person who eats pork rinds (gross, by the way) and hamburgers as if that's on par with eating babies is more than a little ridiculous.  Hitler was a vegetarian too, so what's your point?  I'm not accusing you of being a genocidal dictator, but I do think you're being a hypocrite.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Oh, what a surprise.  Since I called you out for being a douche, I must be single and bitter.  I guess it will come as a surprise then when I tell you I've been with someone for seven years.  You're still missing the point-if there are certain things that you are not willing to accept in a person, than you have no business dating someone with those qualities and allowing it to get serious.  Period.  If you're unwilling to sacrifice your own beliefs or bend on them, you have no right to expect others to do what you yourself are unwilling to do, and the way your initial post came across very much read as if you're afraid you're girlfriend will *gasp* want to continue with her own religious views if you get married.

Incidentally, I was vegetarian for quite awhile.  It had a negative impact on my health, and my doctor advised me that I ought to consider eating meat again.  So I did.  I don't think there's any shame in this.  So you're comment that I'm probably the type of person who eats pork rinds (gross, by the way) and hamburgers as if that's on par with eating babies is more than a little ridiculous.  Hitler was a vegetarian too, so what's your point?  I'm not accusing you of being a genocidal dictator, but I do think you're being a hypocrite.

The bottom line is, I'm not a douche.... I was never a douche about being vegan or atheist.  The irony is you are a hypocrite for being as judgemental about my decision to raise a family in a vegan household as one of the christians you mention in the very same breath.

Damn straight I'm judging you.  Because you're an absolutist.  See other posts as to why this is a bad thing.

I do love how you've singled only me out, after other male posters have agreed with me.  Maybe what you really hate is women who dare to think for themselves.  Which would explain why you're girlfriend wanting to have a religious wedding and be Christian bothers you so much.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Oh, what a surprise.  Since I called you out for being a douche, I must be single and bitter.  I guess it will come as a surprise then when I tell you I've been with someone for seven years.  You're still missing the point-if there are certain things that you are not willing to accept in a person, than you have no business dating someone with those qualities and allowing it to get serious.  Period.  If you're unwilling to sacrifice your own beliefs or bend on them, you have no right to expect others to do what you yourself are unwilling to do, and the way your initial post came across very much read as if you're afraid you're girlfriend will *gasp* want to continue with her own religious views if you get married.

Incidentally, I was vegetarian for quite awhile.  It had a negative impact on my health, and my doctor advised me that I ought to consider eating meat again.  So I did.  I don't think there's any shame in this.  So you're comment that I'm probably the type of person who eats pork rinds (gross, by the way) and hamburgers as if that's on par with eating babies is more than a little ridiculous.  Hitler was a vegetarian too, so what's your point?  I'm not accusing you of being a genocidal dictator, but I do think you're being a hypocrite.

The bottom line is, I'm not a douche.... I was never a douche about being vegan or atheist.  The irony is you are a hypocrite for being as judgemental about my decision to raise a family in a vegan household as one of the christians you mention in the very same breath.  And you call me a hypocrite (the IRONY)

I do appreciate the name calling though.....I'm an asshole, a douche, and now you are comparing me to Hitler?

Again, I have no problem with people eating meat.  I'm sorry being veggie didn't work out for you..... I never put it anywhere near the plane of eating babies, what are you talking about ?

Fucking hell.  That whizzing noise?  That's the sound of a dozen missed points whizzing over your head.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Damn straight I'm judging you.  Because you're an absolutist.  See other posts as to why this is a bad thing.

I do love how you've singled only me out, after other male posters have agreed with me.  Maybe what you really hate is women who dare to think for themselves.  Which would explain why you're girlfriend wanting to have a religious wedding and be Christian bothers you so much.

......I'm an absolutist? Do you know me?  Have you read the other posts? You see them being judgemental and calling me names?  


Did I ever say being christian bothers me so much?

Do you have any reading comprehension skills?

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Fucking hell.  That whizzing noise?  That's the sound of a dozen missed points whizzing over your head.

I actually pity you now... you don't get it.

Woooowwwwoooo nellley!!!

There is no need for anybody to personalise this. I'm reading a thread with two intelligent and committed people. Please don't hack at each other, it's not needed and it's upsetting to watch. There is no need, none whatsoever to turn this into a gender focused issue at all. I would imagine SioS feels pretty pissed off that he's being given a hard time over something that he volunteered information over and calling Philo 'bitter and twisted' is way out of order, completely unacceptable in a civil debate.

Philo said you sounded like an asshole not that you are an asshole. And SioS you do come over as a little arseholly in the OP.

Can we put the knives away please this is upsetting Tank  

Quote2) Second of all, Phila.....sorry, you just do not get it. Not flexing on veganism is NOT like forcing religion on them. When they are of age, I will let them make their own decision. I do not want them to participate in the torturing and unethical treatment of animals while they are at a age when they do not understand. Seeing as you probably eat hamburgers and pork rinds, you are not in a position to judge me. You are the one being like the judgemental asshole here. I'm sorry if you are single and bitter.

Nonsense.  She is easily as qualified as any of us to judge for herself, and her diet is irrelevant to the matter.  Her thinking is the crux of evaluating any judgement she -- or anyone else here -- utters.

Also, what are you going to tell them when they ask why they cannot eat hamburgers at school?  Are you going to stay true to your principles of veganism, and tell them because you object to factory farming / animal cruelty etc (thus indoctrinating them with your view)?  Or are you going to risk that they absorb habits from others that you find abhorrent?

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Fucking hell.  That whizzing noise?  That's the sound of a dozen missed points whizzing over your head.

I actually pity you now... you don't get it.

I disagree.  I think she get's it.  Your pity is misplaced.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Fucking hell.  That whizzing noise?  That's the sound of a dozen missed points whizzing over your head.

I actually pity you now... you don't get it.

I disagree.  I think she get's it.  Your pity is misplaced.

She obviously doesn't get the point of this thread, raising kids vegan, or the fact that veganism is not an issue in my relationship.

You mentioned being unwilling to compromise on veganism or atheism in your relationship.  You brought it up.  If you didn't want multiple people (note - she's not the only one commenting on the subject after you brought it up) commenting on it, why did you incorporate it into your OP?  Lesson learned for you - if you don't want something discussed, don't talk about it in the first place.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"I remember when I told her I was vegan, and that if we were to ever have a child, I would be unacceptable to raise my kid in a meat eating environment. She seemed opposed to it, but I'm really not flexible.  Luckily, she eventually came around and became vegan herself. I would like to note that it was never my intention to convert her into a vegan, but when she did, I became open to pursuing this relationship on a more serious level.

If someone must meet some kind of criteria in order to become a serious partner for you, then why not use that as a screen and make sure that you don't even attempt to have a relationship with those that you know won't become serious?

I don't like extremely religious people, but instead of dating an extremely religious person until she's thinking about getting serious, then telling her that I won't get serious unless she becomes an atheist is not only a waste of time, but potentially damaging to her. Even if she says she'll become an atheist in order to get serious with me, this kind of bribery/threat conversion is never a good way for a person to accept anything, especially a way of life and/or thinking.

So the objections to your OP is that you knew before hand that your potential partner must be a vegan in order to even have a chance at a serious relationship with you and that the person you're dating decided to become a vegan after you gave her that threat/bribe.

Also, plants are living things too. They get plucked from their environment and left to slowly die on trucks and then in stores until they're cooked, eaten alive or tossed in the garbage.

Quote from: "Davin"So the objections to your OP is that you knew before hand that your potential partner must be a vegan in order to even have a chance at a serious relationship with you and that the person you're dating decided to become a vegan after you gave her that threat/bribe.

This this this.  What's the point in saying you never planned on converting her to be a vegan-the fact is is that she DID convert, but only after knowing how you felt about it.  You may not have intentionally forced her, but you did plant that seed, for sure.

If veganism is the thing that is REALLY important than you, I'd seriously just get over the religion thing.  You're an atheist, she's not.  She loves you and puts up with your shit.  Unless she makes a point of preaching to you or trying to convert you on a daily basis, religion is really a non-issue.  And if you can't let the religion thing slide, than don't date her.  But it would be selfish to ask that she give it up, just because you don't agree with it.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"I remember when I told her I was vegan, and that if we were to ever have a child, I would be unacceptable to raise my kid in a meat eating environment. She seemed opposed to it, but I'm really not flexible.  Luckily, she eventually came around and became vegan herself. I would like to note that it was never my intention to convert her into a vegan, but when she did, I became open to pursuing this relationship on a more serious level.

If someone must meet some kind of criteria in order to become a serious partner for you, then why not use that as a screen and make sure that you don't even attempt to have a relationship with those that you know won't become serious?

I don't like extremely religious people, but instead of dating an extremely religious person until she's thinking about getting serious, then telling her that I won't get serious unless she becomes an atheist is not only a waste of time, but potentially damaging to her. Even if she says she'll become an atheist in order to get serious with me, this kind of bribery/threat conversion is never a good way for a person to accept anything, especially a way of life and/or thinking.

So the objections to your OP is that you knew before hand that your potential partner must be a vegan in order to even have a chance at a serious relationship with you and that the person you're dating decided to become a vegan after you gave her that threat/bribe.

Also, plants are living things too. They get plucked from their environment and left to slowly die on trucks and then in stores until they're cooked, eaten alive or tossed in the garbage.

My gf has beed vegan for more than 2 years now...its not an issue with us at this point, why is it an issue with you guys?  I never pressured her to become vegan.  

This thread has been hijacked by peoples inability to get past the vegan issue.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"I remember when I told her I was vegan, and that if we were to ever have a child, I would be unacceptable to raise my kid in a meat eating environment. She seemed opposed to it, but I'm really not flexible.  Luckily, she eventually came around and became vegan herself. I would like to note that it was never my intention to convert her into a vegan, but when she did, I became open to pursuing this relationship on a more serious level.

If someone must meet some kind of criteria in order to become a serious partner for you, then why not use that as a screen and make sure that you don't even attempt to have a relationship with those that you know won't become serious?

I don't like extremely religious people, but instead of dating an extremely religious person until she's thinking about getting serious, then telling her that I won't get serious unless she becomes an atheist is not only a waste of time, but potentially damaging to her. Even if she says she'll become an atheist in order to get serious with me, this kind of bribery/threat conversion is never a good way for a person to accept anything, especially a way of life and/or thinking.

So the objections to your OP is that you knew before hand that your potential partner must be a vegan in order to even have a chance at a serious relationship with you and that the person you're dating decided to become a vegan after you gave her that threat/bribe.

Also, plants are living things too. They get plucked from their environment and left to slowly die on trucks and then in stores until they're cooked, eaten alive or tossed in the garbage.

My gf has beed vegan for more than 2 years now...its not an issue with us at this point, why is it an issue with you guys?  I never pressured her to become vegan.  

This thread has been hijacked by peoples inability to get past the vegan issue.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"My gf has beed vegan for more than 2 years now...its not an issue with us at this point, why is it an issue with you guys?  I never pressured her to become vegan.  

This thread has been hijacked by peoples inability to get past the vegan issue.

My problem isn't the vegan part, it's that you have an absolute standard that you won't waver on, but instead of letting this person know about your requirement from near the beginning, you waited until the serious topic of raising children came up which implies that she already had a significant emotional and time investment in the relationship. Saying that you can't get serious with someone after this kind of emotional attachment means that it is essentially a threat/bribe; "I won't get more serious with you unless you become a <insert whatever here>." Things you can insert are, but not limited to: Christian, vegetarian, vegan, clown, short, brunette... etc.

So to clarify: it's not the vegan part I have a problem with, it's the persuasive method used.

This topic got way off track, and it needs to get back on. I am going to point out that there is no need for anyone, and no excuse for anyone to simply call anyone else in this forum an asshole, just because you disagree with a position. To Philosoraptor AND to anyone else who then followed up Philo's completely-against-forum-rules post: Stop right now. You were wrong to assume so much and to call sleep-in an asshole, and then continue to attack him for his stance on veganism.

I don't want to hear one word of bitching about this one this time. What happened was against forum rules, and the simple rules of human civility which we try to adhere to. Try to appreciate that this isn't even an official warning and get back on track, and be civil. Too many people have been pushing the limits of what this forum's civility rules lately, and it stops now.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"My gf has beed vegan for more than 2 years now...its not an issue with us at this point, why is it an issue with you guys?  I never pressured her to become vegan.  

This thread has been hijacked by peoples inability to get past the vegan issue.

My problem isn't the vegan part, it's that you have an absolute standard that you won't waver on, but instead of letting this person know about your requirement from near the beginning, you waited until the serious topic of raising children came up which implies that she already had a significant emotional and time investment in the relationship. Saying that you can't get serious with someone after this kind of emotional attachment means that it is essentially a threat/bribe; "I won't get more serious with you unless you become a <insert whatever here>." Things you can insert are, but not limited to: Christian, vegetarian, vegan, clown, short, brunette... etc.

So to clarify: it's not the vegan part I have a problem with, it's the persuasive method used.

First of all, I appreciate your tone in your post .... I do have an absolute standard when it comes to raising my children.  I did not force her to adhere to my standard, yet she adopted it at a later point on her own. It was at this point that I considered taking the relationship to another level.  I never persuaded her or pressured her.  Maybe I didn't clarify that in my op.

At this point, I'd either like the thread closed or kept back onto the topic I was originally going for as far as a relationship with someone who is a theist.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"My gf has beed vegan for more than 2 years now...its not an issue with us at this point, why is it an issue with you guys?  I never pressured her to become vegan.  

This thread has been hijacked by peoples inability to get past the vegan issue.

My problem isn't the vegan part, it's that you have an absolute standard that you won't waver on, but instead of letting this person know about your requirement from near the beginning, you waited until the serious topic of raising children came up which implies that she already had a significant emotional and time investment in the relationship. Saying that you can't get serious with someone after this kind of emotional attachment means that it is essentially a threat/bribe; "I won't get more serious with you unless you become a <insert whatever here>." Things you can insert are, but not limited to: Christian, vegetarian, vegan, clown, short, brunette... etc.

So to clarify: it's not the vegan part I have a problem with, it's the persuasive method used.

First of all, I appreciate your tone in your post .... I do have an absolute standard when it comes to raising my children.  I did not force her to adhere to my standard, yet she adopted it at a later point on her own. It was at this point that I considered taking the relationship to another level.  I never persuaded her or pressured her.  Maybe I didn't clarify that in my op.

At this point, I'd either like the thread closed or kept back onto the topic I was originally going for as far as a relationship with someone who is a theist.

It's a great topic, and one that many of us have to deal with. If it can stay on topic and civil, it should really continue on. We can learn a lot from each others' lives and how we deal with the reality of our relationships.

P.S. I'm happily married for 27 years to a roman catholic woman.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"First of all, I appreciate your tone in your post .... I do have an absolute standard when it comes to raising my children.  I did not force her to adhere to my standard, yet she adopted it at a later point on her own. It was at this point that I considered taking the relationship to another level.  I never persuaded her or pressured her.  Maybe I didn't clarify that in my op.

If that's the case then I have less of a problem with it.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"At this point, I'd either like the thread closed or kept back onto the topic I was originally going for as far as a relationship with someone who is a theist.

My last significant other is a Wiccan so technically a theist. I didn't have a problem with it because most the things that are important to me were things that we agree on. I think the best thing to do is to bring it up as soon as reasonably possible and/or whenever you first get the feeling that it may be a problem. This prevents things from building up inside until they explode, makes sure you both are working together and/or to save both of you some time by ending the relationship as soon as you know that you're not a going to work out.

For what it's worth Sleep-in... if you can't bring this up with her now, get it out in the open and deal with it, then it will be a sticky point later on in the marriage that could ultimately lead down a rough road.  It's better to know now than to be plagued with it later.
Hubby and I are both atheist but we've had our share of issues like all other married persons.  It helps though to be able to be open about the issues, even though we disagree.  Keeps the marriage alive.  Communication is the key.

If anything I posted offended anyone, I want to be the first to say I am truly sorry.  While I do not go out of my way to offend, or to call anyone names, if in this case I did, then it was in poor judgement and wrong.  Having said that, I guess my input remains that being inflexible is putting oneself on the path to a world of hurt and probably on the path to eating the proverbial crow.  

Like I said, if going in you put those absolutes in the relationship, I think you are fine.  Like I said, smoking, drugs, and abusive or dangerous habits were a deal breaker for me when I was looking to remarry; thankfully, I found the perfect woman for me in an atheist, who loves nature, is intellectually my superior, and is a hottie.  What more could you ask for, eh?  PEACE.

Quote from: "KDbeads"For what it's worth Sleep-in... if you can't bring this up with her now, get it out in the open and deal with it, then it will be a sticky point later on in the marriage that could ultimately lead down a rough road.  It's better to know now than to be plagued with it later.
Hubby and I are both atheist but we've had our share of issues like all other married persons.  It helps though to be able to be open about the issues, even though we disagree.  Keeps the marriage alive.  Communication is the key.

We have great communication.  The more I think about it, the roadblock is more about settling down than theology. I think if it would make her, and our families happy....I'd have in in a church. But if I had my druthers, I'd rather just go see a judge and get it over with.  But I think that would cut down on the gift cards and my buddies would be pissed at the lack of an open bar.

For those of you married to a theist, do you have kids? What do you tell them?

For anyone that wants to continue the vegan topic in another thread either start a new one or find the old vegan thread...and make sure to strive to be civil.  That goes for both sides, I don't want to hear anyone telling others that they are evil for eating meat either.  There are various civil ways to convey that you find an action to be immoral without attacking people.

Also, if those of you who can't seem to play nice don't shape up I'm going to start enforcing the rules with almost zero tolerance and I really don't care if that means giving even long term posters a week time out ban or more (I've had to do it before).  This is the Happy Atheist forum..try to act like it.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"2) Second of all, Phila.....sorry, you just do not get it.  Not flexing on veganism is NOT like forcing religion on them.  When they are of age, I will let them make their own decision.  I do not want them to participate in the torturing and unethical treatment of animals while they are at a age when they do not understand. Seeing as you probably eat hamburgers and pork rinds, you are not in a position to judge me.  You are the one being like the judgemental asshole here.  I'm sorry if you are single and bitter.

I have to disagree with this. You are denying your children essential nutrients which are especially needed for a growing child. You should feed them meat when young and let them make the choice to become vegan as they grow older. There's a reason humans have incisor and canine teeth.

You can get dairy and meat from humane sources. It isn't difficult to find. If you're the sort of vegan who thinks milking a cow is inhumane, then your mind will not be swayed.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"Damn straight I'm judging you.  Because you're an absolutist.  See other posts as to why this is a bad thing.

I do love how you've singled only me out, after other male posters have agreed with me.  Maybe what you really hate is women who dare to think for themselves.  Which would explain why you're girlfriend wanting to have a religious wedding and be Christian bothers you so much.

Please accept my apologies! I must have missed the memo about you being a lady.  

(Just in case i've referred to you in a masculine tense before now).

Quote from: "Whitney"For anyone that wants to continue the vegan topic in another thread either start a new one or find the old vegan thread...and make sure to strive to be civil.  That goes for both sides, I don't want to hear anyone telling others that they are evil for eating meat either.  There are various civil ways to convey that you find an action to be immoral without attacking people.

Also, if those of you who can't seem to play nice don't shape up I'm going to start enforcing the rules with almost zero tolerance and I really don't care if that means giving even long term posters a week time out ban or more (I've had to do it before).  This is the Happy Atheist forum..try to act like it.

Oops, sorry for my above vegan post. I was posted as i was trawling through the thread.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "KDbeads"For what it's worth Sleep-in... if you can't bring this up with her now, get it out in the open and deal with it, then it will be a sticky point later on in the marriage that could ultimately lead down a rough road.  It's better to know now than to be plagued with it later.
Hubby and I are both atheist but we've had our share of issues like all other married persons.  It helps though to be able to be open about the issues, even though we disagree.  Keeps the marriage alive.  Communication is the key.

We have great communication.  The more I think about it, the roadblock is more about settling down than theology. I think if it would make her, and our families happy....I'd have in in a church. But if I had my druthers, I'd rather just go see a judge and get it over with.  But I think that would cut down on the gift cards and my buddies would be pissed at the lack of an open bar.

For those of you married to a theist, do you have kids? What do you tell them?

My husband is a catholic and we have decided that the kids (when they come) will have all of the things that are important due to tradition like "christening" but they will not be indoctrinated with any ideology. If our future kids come to us with any questions about origins we will simply say mommy believes this and daddy believes this and there are millions of other philosophies and ideologies you can explore. I'd say give your partner the traditional things like weddings etc. because they hold sentimental value but when it comes to teaching your children and molding them into who they will eventually become it's best to expose them to as many ideologies as possible. Most importantly you should teach them HOW to think not WHAT to think. I wish my parents had done that for me. Sort of the Atticus finch approach.

My future Mrs. Ihateyoumike is not religious. She does believe in other just as ridiculous things though, such as the loch ness monster, Bigfoot, and ghosts. I love it about her. It's so cute how she acts when I lovingly mock her for believing such nonsense. She thinks it's cute how I'm so damned scientifically oriented and won't believe anything without evidence.
I would never ask her to change anything about herself in order to suit my needs. If she makes an unwanted lifechoice change for me and resents me for it, then her unhappiness leads to my unhappiness.
I love her for who she is, good and bad and right and wrong.
It doesn't sound like you necessarily have that. In my humble and near worthless opinion, it sounds like since you have standards for her which she has changed herself to meet (has she really? Or will she resent it?) that maybe you don't truly love her for who she is, but who she can be for you. Again, just my thoughts. No offense intended since I really know nothing about you save for what I've read in this thread.
That being said, best of luck to you.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"2) Second of all, Phila.....sorry, you just do not get it.  Not flexing on veganism is NOT like forcing religion on them.  When they are of age, I will let them make their own decision.  I do not want them to participate in the torturing and unethical treatment of animals while they are at a age when they do not understand. Seeing as you probably eat hamburgers and pork rinds, you are not in a position to judge me.  You are the one being like the judgemental asshole here.  I'm sorry if you are single and bitter.

I have to disagree with this. You are denying your children essential nutrients which are especially needed for a growing child. You should feed them meat when young and let them make the choice to become vegan as they grow older. There's a reason humans have incisor and canine teeth.

You can get dairy and meat from humane sources. It isn't difficult to find. If you're the sort of vegan who thinks milking a cow is inhumane, then your mind will not be swayed.

That's a common misconception about vegans. I am very healthy and am not being denied any essential nutrients. In fact vegans are healthier than people who eat red meat (the same study also mentioned those who have a vegetarian diet including fish are the healthiest).

Should we consider the vegan issue a Red Herring and get back to the OP.

SioS has anything come up that you have considered interesting regarding the OP?

Quote from: "Tank"Should we consider the vegan issue a Red Herring and get back to the OP.

SioS has anything come up that you have considered interesting regarding the OP?

Plenty of interesting stuff.....but it was hard to get around the other issue in the OP.  I guess I knew before hand that my gf and I should just get it out in the open and talk about it. I really don't think it will be much of an issue.  I know many of you have dealt with this before, but every relationship is different.

I suppose if it was a big deal to my gf, she would have left by now.  It's not like she goes to church and conducts bible studies in my living room.  I think we will be alright.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "Tank"Should we consider the vegan issue a Red Herring and get back to the OP.

SioS has anything come up that you have considered interesting regarding the OP?

Plenty of interesting stuff.....but it was hard to get around the other issue in the OP.  I guess I knew before hand that my gf and I should just get it out in the open and talk about it. I really don't think it will be much of an issue.  I know many of you have dealt with this before, but every relationship is different.

I suppose if it was a big deal to my gf, she would have left by now.  It's not like she goes to church and conducts bible studies in my living room.  I think we will be alright.

This might sound like a silly question or a trick question, but it isn't. Why do you like your girlfriend? What is it about her that makes you want to spend all your time with her and nobody else? Why do you smile when she walks in the room?

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "Tank"Should we consider the vegan issue a Red Herring and get back to the OP.

SioS has anything come up that you have considered interesting regarding the OP?

Plenty of interesting stuff.....but it was hard to get around the other issue in the OP.  I guess I knew before hand that my gf and I should just get it out in the open and talk about it. I really don't think it will be much of an issue.  I know many of you have dealt with this before, but every relationship is different.

I suppose if it was a big deal to my gf, she would have left by now.  It's not like she goes to church and conducts bible studies in my living room.  I think we will be alright.

This might sound like a silly question or a trick question, but it isn't. Why do you like your girlfriend? What is it about her that makes you want to spend all your time with her and nobody else? Why do you smile when she walks in the room?

She's beautiful, intelligent, caring, has a great attitude, is a great conversationalist, stable, and awesome cook.  I can't really think of any negatives.

I know I'm not the easiest person to get along with, but she does more than tolerate it....she appreciates me for who I am. She always listens to me, but will challenge me at the same time....which I need.

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"She's beautiful, intelligent, caring, has a great attitude, is a great conversationalist, stable, and awesome cook.  I can't really think of any negatives.

I know I'm not the easiest person to get along with, but she does more than tolerate it....she appreciates me for who I am. She always listens to me, but will challenge me at the same time....which I need.

Having a spouse that will put up with one is very important, I know that my wife has put up with me for 30 years  :yay:

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"She's beautiful, intelligent, caring, has a great attitude, is a great conversationalist, stable, and awesome cook.  I can't really think of any negatives.

I know I'm not the easiest person to get along with, but she does more than tolerate it....she appreciates me for who I am. She always listens to me, but will challenge me at the same time....which I need.

Having a spouse that will put up with one is very important, I know that my wife has put up with me for 30 years  :yay:

I'm in no hurry to bring any kids into the world.  But someday, I'd love the chance to be a father.

We've actually been together for a while, and have lived together off and on for a couple years (I am out of the country quite a bit).

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"She's beautiful, intelligent, caring, has a great attitude, is a great conversationalist, stable, and awesome cook.  I can't really think of any negatives.

I know I'm not the easiest person to get along with, but she does more than tolerate it....she appreciates me for who I am. She always listens to me, but will challenge me at the same time....which I need.

Having a spouse that will put up with one is very important, I know that my wife has put up with me for 30 years  :yay:

I'm in no hurry to bring any kids into the world.  But someday, I'd love the chance to be a father.

We've actually been together for a while, and have lived together off and on for a couple years (I am out of the country quite a bit).

I don't think you've got anything significant to worry about. If you can put up with the cultural religious stuff and put on a brave face once all the ceremony is over and the door is shut on the outside world it's just down to you two. Tell you what though, make it a condition of the wedding that your in-laws pay for both it and your honeymoon  

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "sleep_in_on_sunday"2) Second of all, Phila.....sorry, you just do not get it.  Not flexing on veganism is NOT like forcing religion on them.  When they are of age, I will let them make their own decision.  I do not want them to participate in the torturing and unethical treatment of animals while they are at a age when they do not understand. Seeing as you probably eat hamburgers and pork rinds, you are not in a position to judge me.  You are the one being like the judgemental asshole here.  I'm sorry if you are single and bitter.

I have to disagree with this. You are denying your children essential nutrients which are especially needed for a growing child. You should feed them meat when young and let them make the choice to become vegan as they grow older. There's a reason humans have incisor and canine teeth.

You can get dairy and meat from humane sources. It isn't difficult to find. If you're the sort of vegan who thinks milking a cow is inhumane, then your mind will not be swayed.

That's a common misconception about vegans. I am very healthy and am not being denied any essential nutrients. In fact vegans are healthier than people who eat red meat (the same study also mentioned those who have a vegetarian diet including fish are the healthiest).

And was that study conducted with adults or children? I was talking about children.

[/quote]I have to disagree with this. You are denying your children essential nutrients which are especially needed for a growing child. You should feed them meat when young and let them make the choice to become vegan as they grow older. There's a reason humans have incisor and canine teeth.

You can get dairy and meat from humane sources. It isn't difficult to find. If you're the sort of vegan who thinks milking a cow is inhumane, then your mind will not be swayed.



And was that study conducted with adults or children? I was talking about children.[/quote]

A simple google search would answer your question.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

Quote from: "karadan"And was that study conducted with adults or children? I was talking about children.

Ok, we need to keep this on track.     If you'd like to create a topic to discuss diet, go ahead and start one up. It would be interesting, I'm sure.

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "karadan"And was that study conducted with adults or children? I was talking about children.

Ok, we need to keep this on track.  lol.

It's ok, Sleep-in, my reminder was for Karadan. Anyone who wants to discuss the merits of various human diets is free to do so, but in an appropriate thread so we don't continue to hijack this one.

No problem with any of it.