Happy Atheist Forum

Hello Folks,

You will have to forgive me it I post something that has been worked through before, I'm new to this site and I have this need to reach out and talk with those of like mindedness.  As an Atheist, born in the Deep South, now living in a very religious area of Michigan, I don't have a lot of people I can discuss these things with.

So, to keep it short, My question/thought for this post is simply that those who have a particular religion have that religion because of where they were born and what religion their parents had.  I am disturbed by the fact that children are being abused by religion so early in life that they don't have the freedom to make up their own minds as to what to believe or who to believe in.  With my own children, I left the door open for them to make the decision as to their own faith, and found that one fell in with the Faith-Heads and the other has just admitted to me that he doesn't believe in a personal god.

Thoughts please....

Martin TK, I had done exactly the same with my own child (7) although this desition has broght me long discussions with my wife, who is still a beliver.  Just as you, I belive that imposing any type of religion upon a child is a form of forced indoctrination or brain washing... the british author and scientific Richard Dawkins used your same words to describe what he thinks of this indoctrination:  child abuse.  In my case, my wife and I had come to an arrangemente where we would present each of our side to our son without forcing him to do anything:  she presents the christian side by reading Cathechism to him, I on the other hand chose to read Nicomachean Ethic to teach him right from wrong... when he grows up he can choose to have a baptism communion and confirmation by the catholic church, or any religion he chooses, or, if everything goes as I hope for, he can choose the atheist way.  To answer your question, in a way, I was baptized by the catholic church, although I didn´t have a say so at the time, I don´t feel trespassed in any way... was just the traditions and customs of the place I live in... and knowing the ways of my parents it was more a social event than a religious stand.

Influences can come from several places, parents are not the only suppliers of belief systems.  My parents were both thoughtful secular humanists (I suppose that is the closest fitting description), and were slightly surprised that I suddenly decided to become a fundamentalist Christian at 13.  The source of this decision is still a little confusing for me.  I had religious relatives, whom I didn't visit very often, and religious neighbors, whom I did.  Could have been either influence.  In any case, my parents never tried to force the issue.  My father merely playfully engaged me in what he termed "jousts" - verbal battles of wit and logic over religion.  He didn't care what I believed as long as I never stopped thinking.  I am grateful to him to this day.  I eventually left my beliefs, because I never stopped questioning those beliefs.  In any case, there is much wiggle room for surprise, even given direct and immediate influences.

Quote from: "The Black Jester"Influences can come from several places, parents are not the only suppliers of belief systems.  My parents were both thoughtful secular humanists (I suppose that is the closest fitting description), and were slightly surprised that I suddenly decided to become a fundamentalist Christian at 13.  The source of this decision is still a little confusing for me.  I had religious relatives, whom I didn't visit very often, and religious neighbors, whom I did.  Could have been either influence.  In any case, my parents never tried to force the issue.  My father merely playfully engaged me in what he termed "jousts" - verbal battles of wit and logic over religion.  He didn't care what I believed as long as I never stopped thinking.  I am grateful to him to this day.  I eventually left my beliefs, because I never stopped questioning those beliefs.  In any case, there is much wiggle room for surprise, even given direct and immediate influences.

I completely agree that many outside forces influence us as children, however, a lot of those influences are directly related to the decisions our parents make: where we live, the kinds of activities we are exposed to, our families, and even our neighbors.  You became a fundamentalist Christian at the age of 13, which is about the age when children can begin to make some life changing decisions, and then your belief system evolved.  IF all children had the same advantages that you, and I dare say those of us who have worked hard to give our kids some shelter from orthodox religion, maybe there would be a truer picture of the religious in the world.  

My comments don't just reflect Christianity; however, it does touch Islam, Hindu, and any other of the major and minor religions of the world.  If I had been born in an Arab nation, I would most likely have been born and raised a Muslim.

Quote from: "Argie"Martin TK, I had done exactly the same with my own child (7) although this desition has broght me long discussions with my wife, who is still a beliver.  Just as you, I belive that imposing any type of religion upon a child is a form of forced indoctrination or brain washing... the british author and scientific Richard Dawkins used your same words to describe what he thinks of this indoctrination:  child abuse.  In my case, my wife and I had come to an arrangemente where we would present each of our side to our son without forcing him to do anything:  she presents the christian side by reading Cathechism to him, I on the other hand chose to read Nicomachean Ethic to teach him right from wrong... when he grows up he can choose to have a baptism communion and confirmation by the catholic church, or any religion he chooses, or, if everything goes as I hope for, he can choose the atheist way.  To answer your question, in a way, I was baptized by the catholic church, although I didn´t have a say so at the time, I don´t feel trespassed in any way... was just the traditions and customs of the place I live in... and knowing the ways of my parents it was more a social event than a religious stand.

ARgie, I have been fortunate enough in my life to have developed a relationship with both Dawkins and Dan Barker, both excellent examples of true non-believers, who work from different angles to reach the world about the dangers of religious dogma. I stand and applaud both you and your wife, both for not exposing your child to any one belief system, and for NOT divorcing.  When my son's wife and my brother's wife found out I was an atheist, both of them went stupid and cut me off from all communication with their families.  My sister-in-law went so far as to state that I was immoral and to ban me from any contact with her children.  Oh well, their loss, is the way I look at it. Thanks for your response.

Quote from: "Martin TK"If I had been born in an Arab nation, I would most likely have been born and raised a Muslim.

And I very likely would have converted to fundamentalist Islam, rather than Christianity, and my parents very likely would have been far less vocal about their beliefs.  Indeed, I am well aware of my fortune, and very grateful for it.

Quote from: "Martin TK"I have been fortunate enough in my life to have developed a relationship with both Dawkins and Dan Barker

An actual, first name basis relationship?  You are indeed fortunate!  I envy you!  

Quote from: "The Black Jester"

Quote from: "Martin TK"If I had been born in an Arab nation, I would most likely have been born and raised a Muslim.

And I very likely would have converted to fundamentalist Islam, rather than Christianity, and my parents very likely would have been far less vocal about their beliefs.  Indeed, I am well aware of my fortune, and very grateful for it.

Quote from: "Martin TK"I have been fortunate enough in my life to have developed a relationship with both Dawkins and Dan Barker

An actual, first name basis relationship?  You are indeed fortunate!  I envy you!  

Yes, I met Richard back in 2002, when I was in England presenting a paper on race relations in America at Oxford.  He was speaking at the same conference and we exchanged e-mails and began a friendly e-mail relationship.  He sends me copies of his books and I have been known to write for his site from time to time.  I hope one day to meet Hitchens, he's a character I think I could have a heck of a conversation with.  As for Dan Barker, I met him about five months ago, down in Detroit, Michigan, when he was debating D'Souza at at university there.  I just happened to know one of the faculty there, and he got me a meeting with Dan and we have been friends since.  I've worked with his legal team on two separation cases, doing some pro-bono psych profiling.

If you go to his site, FFRF, you can e-mail Dan and he will personally respond to you.  I, also, recommend joining the Freedom From Religion Foundation, you get some really good inside information and a great newsletter each month.  I'm not trying to sell his site, just that as he and I have talked about, atheists don't usually work well in an organized situation, mainly because we are atheists, but having a group like FFRF to put forth our ideas and thoughts is the next best thing.

Quote from: "Martin TK"As for Dan Barker, I met him about five months ago, down in Detroit, Michigan, when he was debating D'Souza at at university there.

D'Souza, eh!  That must have been interesting...wow.

Quote from: "Martin TK"I'm not trying to sell his site, just that as he and I have talked about, atheists don't usually work well in an organized situation, mainly because we are atheists, but having a group like FFRF to put forth our ideas and thoughts is the next best thing.

...No, no, I'm grateful for the recommendation. I'm definitely looking for more 'community' among those of like mind - I find it extremely helpful, personally.

I would love to meet Dawkins, or Barker (or Hitchens!) someday.  If one of them has a talk in NY someday, (which seems not entirely out of the realm of possibility), I will have to go see them!

Quote from: "The Black Jester"

Quote from: "Martin TK"As for Dan Barker, I met him about five months ago, down in Detroit, Michigan, when he was debating D'Souza at at university there.

D'Souza, eh!  That must have been interesting...wow.

Quote from: "Martin TK"I'm not trying to sell his site, just that as he and I have talked about, atheists don't usually work well in an organized situation, mainly because we are atheists, but having a group like FFRF to put forth our ideas and thoughts is the next best thing.

...No, no, I'm grateful for the recommendation. I'm definitely looking for more 'community' among those of like mind - I find it extremely helpful, personally.

I would love to meet Dawkins, or Barker (or Hitchens!) someday.  If one of them has a talk in NY someday, (which seems not entirely out of the realm of possibility), I will have to go see them!

Yes, D'Souza was a good opponent for Barker, except that he's not a very good Biblical Scholar and Dan ate him alive in that respect.  D'Souza has a really good grasp on how to debate, comes prepared, and is very knowledgeable on issues like Biology and such; but I found him easily rattled by Dan's calm and by Dan's evangelical past.  You can't debate the bible with Dan Barker, he knows it too well.

I'm thinking of moving to NY this fall and taking a position over at Sryacuse University.  I need to ask Dan when and where his next debate will be held, if I hear of him coming to NY or Dawkins for that matter, I'll post it here for everyone.  I haven't seen Dawkins debate, but I did listen to his lecture on Memes, which was facinating.

I'm not sure how I would answer this.  Area based religion doesn't always affect those who grow up in it, as in keeping them in the same religion.  Where I grew up, the whole area was fundamental pentecostal.  It was forced on us as children, on our school mates, the kids in the other schools, the kids who didn't go to school... etc.  Fast forward a good 25-30 years later, those I have had the chance to talk to are not very, if at all, religious.  Plus, most all of us got out of the area and haven't gone back.  Those who did remain religious no longer follow that doctrine and many have switched to completely different religions.

So it may just be a little anomaly that this particular community changed, it may not.  I'm not entirely convinced either way.

Quote from: "Martin TK"I'm thinking of moving to NY this fall and taking a position over at Sryacuse University.

I hope all goes well for you!  If you ever come to NYC, I'll buy you coffee.

Hoping to go back to school again someday, myself.  We'll see.

It's interesting what TBJ said about his interest in religion as a teen. For me one of the most important influences on my life were BBC natural history television programmes. I lived for Sunday evening 7pm BBC2 and The World About Us (http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/series/18482). At school I found I had a natural talent for biology and a great teacher, Mr Bell. My parents were quite balanced in their outlooks, but not really through choice more through circumstance. My Mum was a Church of England Christian or 'Christianity Lite'. I got dragged to church but never fell for it. My Dad was an atheist, I know that now but I don't remember him ever using the word. On a Sunday I would go off to church with Mum and then I'd have long chats with my Dad about 'Life, the universe and everything.' after I got back. I was confirmed but mainly just to keep my Mum off my back.

Later there was David Attenborough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Attenborough) and Life On Earth when I was 19 and all of his wonderful work on the natural world.

If anybody here has not read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali) I would highly recommend it. It addresses the issues raised in the OP as Ayaan was born into a Muslim family in Somalia and it traces her de-conversion from Islam and how her eyes were opened on reaching Germany and later the Netherlands.

The arguments that prove the exception, not the rule, are very interesting, but think about it; children born in America to Christian parents normally remain at least in theory, Christian.  If only 10% of Americans are atheists, then certainly a larger portion of the children of Christians remain associated with Christianity.  I think that once those children grow up, there is a greater chance of them remaining Christian than becoming atheist or agnostic; however, I think this trend will change in the coming decades.

Just a theory, but I know that Dawkins and Barker both agree with this, as both have written about it in various books and publications.

I'm reading a book right now called Moral Minds by Marc Hauser.  He takes a "Chomskyist" approach to morality- there is an underlying framework on which our morality is built.  The specifics are of an infinite variety (just look at all the different moral and religious codes) but the basic framework remains the same (killing is bad, altruism is good, etc.)  It has changed my opinion on the nature vs. nurture debate.

I don't think religious indoctrination is inherently "abuse", and I think it dilutes such a charged word to so assert.  It can be abuse, but it need not be so; it depends largely on the manner of indoctrination.

And all education is indoctrination, at one level or another.

Quote from: "NearBr0ken"I'm reading a book right now called Moral Minds by Marc Hauser.

That's on my short-list of books to read in the near future - are you enjoying it?

It's wonderful.  It explains a lot about human nature.  He starts with a materialistic and evolutionary point of view and moves into how evolution has influenced the foundation of our morals.  It has also opened my eyes about many social situations in modern society.  For example, it's easier to see now why one can see "black power" as an empowerment philosophy and "white power" as a supremacist philosophy.  One of the main points is that a lot of our moral decisions can't be explained or justified- they're just made because we know they're right.

Quote from: "NearBr0ken"One of the main points is that a lot of our moral decisions can't be explained or justified- they're just made because we know they're right.

Check out: On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not, by Robert A. Burton, M.D. - has a lot to say about decision making and so-called "certainty."

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I don't think religious indoctrination is inherently "abuse", and I think it dilutes such a charged word to so assert.  It can be abuse, but it need not be so; it depends largely on the manner of indoctrination.

And all education is indoctrination, at one level or another.

Would you consider what the Extremeist Muslims do to be a form of abuse?  I'm sorry, but to me ALL forms of early religious indoctrination are abusive to children in that it takes away their freedom to chose what, if any, religion they wish to follow.  Like most indoctrinations (I like to think of it more as brainwashing) there are long term psychological implications that are extremely hard to shake off, even in adulthood.  As one theologian said to me, "Even if you brought concrete evidence to me that god did not exist, I would continue to believe in a god.  Not because he existed, but because I have been taught to believe."  

The difference between indoctrination by education and that of religion is that education often teaches us to think, question, and to experiment; while religion indoctrination teaches that there is value in unquestioned faith, which I believe to be dangerous.

I´m very sorry to read the treatment you got from your family after they learned you are an atheist Martin TK.  I disnt´t quite understand your personal background:  were you born a muslim?  If so, then it would certainly "make sense", if that´s a way to say it, your family´s reaction...muslims belive that once a muslim, either born into Islam or converted you cannot leave the religion under penalty of death.  They would have reacted the same way if you adopted another religion or even if being a suni muslim you turned into shia muslim or viceversa.

I defenetly agree with you that religious education is brainwashing and a form of child abuse.  Think of what happens to girls in some muslim countries, they are taught to belive not only the sharia´s obedience to men, but also to accept the fact that they will have the clitoreal amputation, because "Allah thinks" its a "dirty" place on the female anatomy.  But to be fair, not only muslims teach this kind of nonsese, the jews are indoctrinated from early age to belive they are "the chosen people", and I think that belief is a kind of supremacism.  I knew some christians that belive other denomination christians are heathen or infidelsbecause they are catholics... and catholics belive all other no catholic christians are heretics.  If children din´t grow upwith all these mambojambo indoctrination the world would be a much better place.

Secular education could be biased, there is no question about it.  The best example would be communist or socialist countries.  But that bias can only be found in certain social and humanistic disciplines, not in all the other branches of science... I see no way you could indoctrinate someone through mathematics or physics.  Some branches of science are just about teaching the truth following the scientific method.

Quote from: "Martin TK"Would you consider what the Extremeist Muslims do to be a form of abuse?  I'm sorry, but to me ALL forms of early religious indoctrination are abusive to children in that it takes away their freedom to chose what, if any, religion they wish to follow.

Indeed, it is a self-reinforcing meme.  That does not render it abuse.

QuoteLike most indoctrinations (I like to think of it more as brainwashing) there are long term psychological implications that are extremely hard to shake off, even in adulthood.  As one theologian said to me, "Even if you brought concrete evidence to me that god did not exist, I would continue to believe in a god.  Not because he existed, but because I have been taught to believe."

There are also long-term implications to the indoctrination of fighting for kith and kin.  Do you regard that as abuse?

QuoteThe difference between indoctrination by education and that of religion is that education often teaches us to think, question, and to experiment; while religion indoctrination teaches that there is value in unquestioned faith, which I believe to be dangerous.

The difference between abuse and indoctrination, which is the issue here, is that indoctrination trains one to think a certain way, while abuse punishes the inability or refusal to do so.

I am not saying religious indoctrination is harmless.  I am saying that labeling it "abuse" risks either the dilution of the terminology, or the unfair castigation of people who teach their children the way that they were taught.  While I think religion is mistaken, I don't wish to purvey hyperbole, which is what I consider this charge.

Quote from: "Argie"I´m very sorry to read the treatment you got from your family after they learned you are an atheist Martin TK.  I disnt´t quite understand your personal background:  were you born a muslim?  If so, then it would certainly "make sense", if that´s a way to say it, your family´s reaction...muslims belive that once a muslim, either born into Islam or converted you cannot leave the religion under penalty of death.  They would have reacted the same way if you adopted another religion or even if being a suni muslim you turned into shia muslim or viceversa.

I defenetly agree with you that religious education is brainwashing and a form of child abuse.  Think of what happens to girls in some muslim countries, they are taught to belive not only the sharia´s obedience to men, but also to accept the fact that they will have the clitoreal amputation, because "Allah thinks" its a "dirty" place on the female anatomy.  But to be fair, not only muslims teach this kind of nonsese, the jews are indoctrinated from early age to belive they are "the chosen people", and I think that belief is a kind of supremacism.  I knew some christians that belive other denomination christians are heathen or infidelsbecause they are catholics... and catholics belive all other no catholic christians are heretics.  If children din´t grow upwith all these mambojambo indoctrination the world would be a much better place.

Secular education could be biased, there is no question about it.  The best example would be communist or socialist countries.  But that bias can only be found in certain social and humanistic disciplines, not in all the other branches of science... I see no way you could indoctrinate someone through mathematics or physics.  Some branches of science are just about teaching the truth following the scientific method.

No, I was born into a Christian home, I was using the Muslim example as well an example, is all.  But I agree with your statement all the way.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Martin TK"Would you consider what the Extremeist Muslims do to be a form of abuse?  I'm sorry, but to me ALL forms of early religious indoctrination are abusive to children in that it takes away their freedom to chose what, if any, religion they wish to follow.

Indeed, it is a self-reinforcing meme.  That does not render it abuse.

QuoteLike most indoctrinations (I like to think of it more as brainwashing) there are long term psychological implications that are extremely hard to shake off, even in adulthood.  As one theologian said to me, "Even if you brought concrete evidence to me that god did not exist, I would continue to believe in a god.  Not because he existed, but because I have been taught to believe."

There are also long-term implications to the indoctrination of fighting for kith and kin.  Do you regard that as abuse?

QuoteThe difference between indoctrination by education and that of religion is that education often teaches us to think, question, and to experiment; while religion indoctrination teaches that there is value in unquestioned faith, which I believe to be dangerous.

The difference between abuse and indoctrination, which is the issue here, is that indoctrination trains one to think a certain way, while abuse punishes the inability or refusal to do so.

I am not saying religious indoctrination is harmless.  I am saying that labeling it "abuse" risks either the dilution of the terminology, or the unfair castigation of people who teach their children the way that they were taught.  While I think religion is mistaken, I don't wish to purvey hyperbole, which is what I consider this charge.

We shall have to agree to disagree, as is often the case with atheists, which makes us all the more stronger in the end, agreed?  Thanks

At a somewhat early age, I realized that if I'd been born overseas I'd have been Muslin, not Catholic. I couldn't think of any compelling reason to prefer one general set of belief over another, and was forced to conclude that either all of them were valid, or none were. For quite a while I went with the former, but in the past few years I've swung over towards the latter.

Quote from: "Anthemyst"At a somewhat early age, I realized that if I'd been born overseas I'd have been Muslin, not Catholic. I couldn't think of any compelling reason to prefer one general set of belief over another, and was forced to conclude that either all of them were valid, or none were. For quite a while I went with the former, but in the past few years I've swung over towards the latter.

This kind of goes with a statement I made to a theist recently, what makes Christianity MORE valid than any of the previous religions of the world that have all been proven to be debunked.  If Christianity is valid, then so are the religions of the Greeks, the Romans, the Aztecs, and the Egyptians.  As Dawkins says, we are all atheists, he just takes it one more god further than Christians do.

SMILE