Happy Atheist Forum

I was driving through Wisconsin yesterday and kept seeing these billboard about religion and Jesus and burning in hell, well, you get the picture.

On one particular bill board, there were three crosses and it said, "Jesus died for the sins of the world."  Well, that got me thinking, it was a long drive and my lovely wife was sleeping, anyway, here is a Reader's Digest version of my thoughts:

IF Jesus died for the sins of the WORLD, doesn't that imply that no matter what religion or non-religion you claim, Jesus died so that your sins are gone.  Now, IF Christians claim that Jesus died for the sins of Christian believers, isn't that like admitting that their god is a god unable to give unconditional love?  Therefore, he can't be the god of mankind, he is ONLY the god of Christians.  Now, some Christians like to say that Jesus died for everyone's sins, but in order to receive that love or forgiveness, one must convert to Christianity; but doesn't that again prove that their god only loves Christians, NOT the whole world?  MY thoughts are that the billboard would be better served by saying, "Jesus died for the sins of Christians, all the rest of you smuks are going to hell."

Just a thought, or two..... I told you it was a LONG drive from Illinois to the UP of Michigan.

That thought is just more evidence of the blatant contradiction between the wrath of the angry God and the love of Jesus. I think of it as a good cop bad cop scenario spread over a few thousand years  

Quote from: "Martin TK"I was driving through Wisconsin yesterday and kept seeing these billboard about religion and Jesus and burning in hell, well, you get the picture.

On one particular bill board, there were three crosses and it said, "Jesus died for the sins of the world."  Well, that got me thinking, it was a long drive and my lovely wife was sleeping, anyway, here is a Reader's Digest version of my thoughts:

IF Jesus died for the sins of the WORLD, doesn't that imply that no matter what religion or non-religion you claim, Jesus died so that your sins are gone.  Now, IF Christians claim that Jesus died for the sins of Christian believers, isn't that like admitting that their god is a god unable to give unconditional love?  Therefore, he can't be the god of mankind, he is ONLY the god of Christians.  Now, some Christians like to say that Jesus died for everyone's sins, but in order to receive that love or forgiveness, one must convert to Christianity; but doesn't that again prove that their god only loves Christians, NOT the whole world?  MY thoughts are that the billboard would be better served by saying, "Jesus died for the sins of Christians, all the rest of you smuks are going to hell."

Just a thought, or two..... I told you it was a LONG drive from Illinois to the UP of Michigan. :eek:

LOL... god could just have erased Adam and Eve (and Steve too) and start all over again... this is another example of why christianity is a bunch of bolony.

I see something I haven't focused on before. If God's love is infinite and unconditional, why is there the specific condition that you must believe his son died for the world?

Quote from: "Ellainix"I see something I haven't focused on before. If God's love is infinite and unconditional, why is there the specific condition that you must believe his son died for the world?

Dude, that's how powerful God is.  He can have conditions to his love, but his love is still unconditional.  OoOoOoOoOoOohh!!!  Doesn't make sense?  Dude, that's how mysterious God is...

Quote from: "Ellainix"I see something I haven't focused on before. If God's love is infinite and unconditional, why is there the specific condition that you must believe his son died for the world?

So you want to believe you have to suffer for every little thing you didn't do right? I don't think god really cares what we believe, or even what we do as long as it's not hurting anyone. I think he lives vicariously through us in a way. I think he cares more about what's in our heart and how we treat people. And his son/Jesus literally was him perhaps. Somehow he must have put part of his soul in a human body here, idk how that would work though.

Eh I don't think you really have to believe it.....you can believe whatever you want. Although god will probably be able to show you history and show that it did happen (I don't know if it did or not, but I suspect it did). But since the Bible was still written by man, I wouldn't regard it as completely true/100% good. Or at least not take it literally in a bad way. The Catholic church (and other churches) have had lots of issues. Jesus didn't write the Bible himself, it wasn't even written until 30 years after his death.

I see everything made by man as sort of being a reflection/part of god, but no one thing (like the Bible) is the complete truth or the ONLY way to the truth. I personally see the Bible as kind of a way to keep the ignorant people in check. (but the Bible did help in the foundation of America imo, and it helped mold us into a pretty good country).

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Martin TK"I was driving through Wisconsin yesterday and kept seeing these billboard about religion and Jesus and burning in hell, well, you get the picture.

On one particular bill board, there were three crosses and it said, "Jesus died for the sins of the world."  Well, that got me thinking, it was a long drive and my lovely wife was sleeping, anyway, here is a Reader's Digest version of my thoughts:

First the Seventh Day Adventist take on Hell.  Jesus had to drink a cup of the sins of all people.  But if you don't accept God then an eternity with God would be a hell such as you can't imagine.  You get to drink your portion of that cup and ONLY your portion so that your hell fire experience is only the measure of the things you did that are considered wrong.  Remember that in perfect Justice punishment must only fit the exact measure of the crime.

Given that the wages of sin is death then there will be a second death after the judgment and you only need suffer the exact measure of your sin.

--Oh and don't forget that the lake of fire will be eternal and thus a memorial to those who rejected God's unconditional love.  Also a poignant reminder for all who are children of God.

Quote from: "McQ"Sadly, no matter how much you look for answers to this, there is little ACTUAL explanation given, just mostly people parroting others they have read or heard.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Romans-road-salvation.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Romans-road-salvation.html)
http://contenderministries.org/romanroad.php (http://contenderministries.org/romanroad.php)
http://www.matthewmcgee.org/roman-rd.html (http://www.matthewmcgee.org/roman-rd.html)

God has communicated sufficiently thru His word so the Bible should be enough to get the answers you need as you also understand the concept of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit guiding you to a full understanding.

Quote from: "McQ"In brief:  
8. Of course, rather than one through seven, the all powerful god could have just not fucked it all up in the first place. Or could just wave his magic hand around and simply remove the sin, or turn back time, or a million other things instead of going to all the trouble of condemning his creation from the get-go.  

http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/wes/plantfwd.html (http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/wes/plantfwd.html)

Quote(3) God actualized a world in which there are free creatures who produce some moral goodness; AND all possible persons suffer from TWD, so that God could not have actualized a world in which there were free creatures who produced moral goodness and no moral evil.

Given Plantinga's free will defense you have a way to understand why there are some things that God can't do because they are not logically constructable and any possible world.  Thus there will be no magic hand.

And let me point out at this time that the idea that God is all knowing does not mean you do not have a free will.  I could have perfect knowledge of everything you are going to do in the next three days.  Does that mean that you have been robed of your free will in any way?  If you had perfect access to my perfect knowledge of the next three days then you would be robed of your free will.  But you don't and thus regardless of any perfect knowledge of your future you have free will to make your own choices.  And what if our future is more like a matrix of quantum super positions where a free will choice collapses the wave and sets that aspect of your future.  An all knowing being could see ALL the quantum super positions simultaneously and still you would have a matrix of possible choices that require the activation of your will to collapse the wave.

God's love is unconditional.  God does want you to have a way to spend eternity with your Creator.  Yet you must make a choice.  You must be willing to be with God. This is about perfect justice and a way for there to be atonement for the measure of your sin. God will adopt us as His children.  This is a powerful status that even some Christians do not fully understand so enough with the deeper theology.

Quote from: "McQ"The catch is that it is a GIFT from god. But wait! Guess what? In order for a gift to be an actual gift it has to be given AND RECEIVED. So every single human has to accept the gift (think of it as a literal boxed gift being handed to you - it's not really yours until you take it from the giver).

Given that at one time you where a Christian as gave yourself to Jesus so that you come under the atonement you do have a free will choice.  You would not want eternity with a God you can't love unconditionally would you?  And I grant that we may not at first find our love for God to be unconditional.  But that is why salvation is a path.  And we are all free to leave the path any time we chose.

It is a two way street after all and a Just and Loving God would not want to do something you don't really want.

Quote from: "Prea"(but the Bible did help in the foundation of America imo, and it helped mold us into a pretty good country).

I'm not about to take on that huge post above me, but I have to say this has been debunked over and over again. If America was founded on any particular pre-existing moral code, it'd be much easier to make a case for the Enlightenment-era philosophers like Locke, Paine and Jefferson than the Bible (I think Jefferson was a deist and Paine was for the disestablishment of religion all together, not sure about Locke though).

To those who responded from the Theist side, your responses are typical and disputable at every turn.  I'm not attacking your views, you are very welcome to them, and I do appreciate the effort in posting them, you would have done your duty to attempt conversion well, it's just that none of your answers really answer anything.  Your fall back position is always the bible, and theologians fight among themselves over the reliability of that book, and the attempt to explain god's intentions is somewhat laughable since the "man" himself hasn't spoken to anyone in like 2000 years.

I guess my position is simple:  IF god is the god of mankind, and man can only get to god through Jesus, then god is the god of Christianity, period....  At least that is the premise of the billboards that I have read.  Having said this, I then have to believe that the Christian god has no more validity than does the god of Islam, Hindu, or the Grecko-Roman gods.  A very strong argument, much like those made by our theists today, could be made by believers in any religion over the entire history of mankind.

What is it then that distinguishes ONE god over the others, and if you attempt to answer this, please do it from the POV of all gods, or no gods.  Thank you.

One final thought on this and then I'm going to leave it be and move on.

It seems to me that there is a recurrent theme in all this, "god's gift" and that it must be accepted to be received.  Isn't that just saying the same old same old, that HIS love and forgiveness are conditional, therefore, god's love can not be claimed as unconditional love.  I know unconditional love, it's what I give to my three children, even when they turn their backs on me because I am an atheist.  I would die for any of them, I would give everything I have for them, I would NEVER want to see them suffer, I would NEVER want to be the cause of their pain; that is unconditional love.  Then again, I am not a jealous father, a vengeful father, or one who tells my kids they have to bow down to me or even acknowledge the gifts I send them.  I just love them, period.  If I can do it, and I am a mere mortal, why can't god?  It's not that hard, really.

Quote from: "Martin TK"To those who responded from the Theist side, your responses are typical and disputable at every turn.  I'm not attacking your views, you are very welcome to them, and I do appreciate the effort in posting them, you would have done your duty to attempt conversion well, it's just that none of your answers really answer anything.  Your fall back position is always the bible, and theologians fight among themselves over the reliability of that book, and the attempt to explain god's intentions is somewhat laughable since the "man" himself hasn't spoken to anyone in like 2000 years.

I guess my position is simple:  IF god is the god of mankind, and man can only get to god through Jesus, then god is the god of Christianity, period....  At least that is the premise of the billboards that I have read.  Having said this, I then have to believe that the Christian god has no more validity than does the god of Islam, Hindu, or the Grecko-Roman gods.  A very strong argument, much like those made by our theists today, could be made by believers in any religion over the entire history of mankind.

What is it then that distinguishes ONE god over the others, and if you attempt to answer this, please do it from the POV of all gods, or no gods.  Thank you.

They are all a manifestation of the one self that we are all modeled after (although many times people don't use these tools to better themself, and instead use them for destructive behavior) imo

I don't believe there is necessarily any one true or right way, they are whatever you make of them really......they are all different paths that lead to someone being able to find themself.

Quote from: "Martin TK"One final thought on this and then I'm going to leave it be and move on.

It seems to me that there is a recurrent theme in all this, "god's gift" and that it must be accepted to be received.  Isn't that just saying the same old same old, that HIS love and forgiveness are conditional, therefore, god's love can not be claimed as unconditional love.  I know unconditional love, it's what I give to my three children, even when they turn their backs on me because I am an atheist.  I would die for any of them, I would give everything I have for them, I would NEVER want to see them suffer, I would NEVER want to be the cause of their pain; that is unconditional love.  Then again, I am not a jealous father, a vengeful father, or one who tells my kids they have to bow down to me or even acknowledge the gifts I send them.  I just love them, period.  If I can do it, and I am a mere mortal, why can't god?  It's not that hard, really.

What makes you think enjoying being around people/treating others right, and just living life is not enough to satisfy god? God only wants you to enjoy what he has created

God doesn't make you accept anything. If you don't want to accept unconditional love....then don't. I'm not sure what pain god causes you? You really think life is that bad? You live here for what...maybe 80 years max? That's not even a speck in the realm of eternity

Quote from: "Martin TK"To those who responded from the Theist side, your responses are typical and disputable at every turn.  I'm not attacking your views, you are very welcome to them, and I do appreciate the effort in posting them, you would have done your duty to attempt conversion well, it's just that none of your answers really answer anything.  Your fall back position is always the bible, and theologians fight among themselves over the reliability of that book, and the attempt to explain god's intentions is somewhat laughable since the "man" himself hasn't spoken to anyone in like 2000 years.

I guess my position is simple:  IF god is the god of mankind, and man can only get to god through Jesus, then god is the god of Christianity, period....  At least that is the premise of the billboards that I have read.  Having said this, I then have to believe that the Christian god has no more validity than does the god of Islam, Hindu, or the Grecko-Roman gods.  A very strong argument, much like those made by our theists today, could be made by believers in any religion over the entire history of mankind.

What is it then that distinguishes ONE god over the others, and if you attempt to answer this, please do it from the POV of all gods, or no gods.  Thank you.

You are aware that I'm an atheist, right?
I was trying to help answer your question.

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Martin TK"To those who responded from the Theist side, your responses are typical and disputable at every turn.  I'm not attacking your views, you are very welcome to them, and I do appreciate the effort in posting them, you would have done your duty to attempt conversion well, it's just that none of your answers really answer anything.  Your fall back position is always the bible, and theologians fight among themselves over the reliability of that book, and the attempt to explain god's intentions is somewhat laughable since the "man" himself hasn't spoken to anyone in like 2000 years.

I guess my position is simple:  IF god is the god of mankind, and man can only get to god through Jesus, then god is the god of Christianity, period....  At least that is the premise of the billboards that I have read.  Having said this, I then have to believe that the Christian god has no more validity than does the god of Islam, Hindu, or the Grecko-Roman gods.  A very strong argument, much like those made by our theists today, could be made by believers in any religion over the entire history of mankind.

What is it then that distinguishes ONE god over the others, and if you attempt to answer this, please do it from the POV of all gods, or no gods.  Thank you.

You are aware that I'm an atheist, right?
I was trying to help answer your question.

I was actually talking about Freeservant, not you McQ, sorry if you thought otherwise.  Thanks for the answer though.

Quote from: "freeservant"God has communicated sufficiently thru His word so the Bible should be enough to get the answers you need as you also understand the concept of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit guiding you to a full understanding.

.......


It is a two way street after all and a Just and Loving God would not want to do something you don't really want.

But again, such talk fails to answer why then the "Holy Spirit" that is "guiding" believers to a "full understanding" keeps guiding people in different directions.  :brick:  Why doesn't every Christian guided by the Holy Spirit when reading the Bible reach the same full understanding ?!?  They are all false prophets and you are a true one?  But doesn't everyone think THEY are the one with TRUE understanding?

And if hell is real, I definitely don't want to go burn in fire for eternity for being created too proud or ignorant or whatever to be fully guided by the Holy Spirit, yet you claim God will have no problem sentencing me to such a fate--even though he is the one who made me the way I am in the first place.

Quote from: "Prea"

Quote from: "Martin TK"To those who responded from the Theist side, your responses are typical and disputable at every turn.  I'm not attacking your views, you are very welcome to them, and I do appreciate the effort in posting them, you would have done your duty to attempt conversion well, it's just that none of your answers really answer anything.  Your fall back position is always the bible, and theologians fight among themselves over the reliability of that book, and the attempt to explain god's intentions is somewhat laughable since the "man" himself hasn't spoken to anyone in like 2000 years.

I guess my position is simple:  IF god is the god of mankind, and man can only get to god through Jesus, then god is the god of Christianity, period....  At least that is the premise of the billboards that I have read.  Having said this, I then have to believe that the Christian god has no more validity than does the god of Islam, Hindu, or the Grecko-Roman gods.  A very strong argument, much like those made by our theists today, could be made by believers in any religion over the entire history of mankind.

What is it then that distinguishes ONE god over the others, and if you attempt to answer this, please do it from the POV of all gods, or no gods.  Thank you.

They are all a manifestation of the one self that we are all modeled after (although many times people don't use these tools to better themself, and instead use them for destructive behavior) imo

I don't believe there is necessarily any one true or right way, they are whatever you make of them really......they are all different paths that lead to someone being able to find themself.

Quote from: "Martin TK"One final thought on this and then I'm going to leave it be and move on.

It seems to me that there is a recurrent theme in all this, "god's gift" and that it must be accepted to be received.  Isn't that just saying the same old same old, that HIS love and forgiveness are conditional, therefore, god's love can not be claimed as unconditional love.  I know unconditional love, it's what I give to my three children, even when they turn their backs on me because I am an atheist.  I would die for any of them, I would give everything I have for them, I would NEVER want to see them suffer, I would NEVER want to be the cause of their pain; that is unconditional love.  Then again, I am not a jealous father, a vengeful father, or one who tells my kids they have to bow down to me or even acknowledge the gifts I send them.  I just love them, period.  If I can do it, and I am a mere mortal, why can't god?  It's not that hard, really. :brick:

Quote from: "Prea"

Quote from: "Martin TK"To those who responded from the Theist side, your responses are typical and disputable at every turn.  I'm not attacking your views, you are very welcome to them, and I do appreciate the effort in posting them, you would have done your duty to attempt conversion well, it's just that none of your answers really answer anything.  Your fall back position is always the bible, and theologians fight among themselves over the reliability of that book, and the attempt to explain god's intentions is somewhat laughable since the "man" himself hasn't spoken to anyone in like 2000 years.

I guess my position is simple:  IF god is the god of mankind, and man can only get to god through Jesus, then god is the god of Christianity, period....  At least that is the premise of the billboards that I have read.  Having said this, I then have to believe that the Christian god has no more validity than does the god of Islam, Hindu, or the Grecko-Roman gods.  A very strong argument, much like those made by our theists today, could be made by believers in any religion over the entire history of mankind.

What is it then that distinguishes ONE god over the others, and if you attempt to answer this, please do it from the POV of all gods, or no gods.  Thank you.

They are all a manifestation of the one self that we are all modeled after (although many times people don't use these tools to better themself, and instead use them for destructive behavior) imo

I don't believe there is necessarily any one true or right way, they are whatever you make of them really......they are all different paths that lead to someone being able to find themself.

Quote from: "Martin TK"One final thought on this and then I'm going to leave it be and move on.

It seems to me that there is a recurrent theme in all this, "god's gift" and that it must be accepted to be received.  Isn't that just saying the same old same old, that HIS love and forgiveness are conditional, therefore, god's love can not be claimed as unconditional love.  I know unconditional love, it's what I give to my three children, even when they turn their backs on me because I am an atheist.  I would die for any of them, I would give everything I have for them, I would NEVER want to see them suffer, I would NEVER want to be the cause of their pain; that is unconditional love.  Then again, I am not a jealous father, a vengeful father, or one who tells my kids they have to bow down to me or even acknowledge the gifts I send them.  I just love them, period.  If I can do it, and I am a mere mortal, why can't god?  It's not that hard, really. :brick:

I'm rather pressed for time, son has football practice, but this jumped out at me:

QuoteAnd let me point out at this time that the idea that God is all knowing does not mean you do not have a free will. I could have perfect knowledge of everything you are going to do in the next three days. Does that mean that you have been robed of your free will in any way? If you had perfect access to my perfect knowledge of the next three days then you would be robed of your free will. But you don't and thus regardless of any perfect knowledge of your future you have free will to make your own choices. And what if our future is more like a matrix of quantum super positions where a free will choice collapses the wave and sets that aspect of your future. An all knowing being could see ALL the quantum super positions simultaneously and still you would have a matrix of possible choices that require the activation of your will to collapse the wave.

Aside from the misunderstood fancy talk for "no one can know the future", here's why an omnipotent ommnibeneficent god is incompatible with free will:

If he knows the choices we are to make, we cannot help but make those choices, or else he is not omniscient.  If he knows the likelihood of our making those choices, but doesn't know certainly, then he is still not omniscient.  If he knows our choices perfectly, and cannot change then, then he is not omnipotent.  If he knows our choices will result, and still lets us, say, gas 5.8 million Jews to death, then he is certainly not good.

Quote from: "Martin TK"You do realize that your arguments are all circular, you keep rolling over the same old tired arguments time and time and time again, answering NOTHING.

That's exactly the point
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_1I7KiCuAU4k%2FSGseCrxRRJI%2FAAAAAAAABZg%2Fq_AahnOFjRU%2Fs400%2Flemniscate_kidicarus222.gif&hash=4aab1b5829e27a83f6cd4e7699259a71baac4bf2)

Quote from: "Prea"

Quote from: "Martin TK"You do realize that your arguments are all circular, you keep rolling over the same old tired arguments time and time and time again, answering NOTHING.

That's exactly the point
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_1I7KiCuAU4k%2FSGseCrxRRJI%2FAAAAAAAABZg%2Fq_AahnOFjRU%2Fs400%2Flemniscate_kidicarus222.gif&hash=4aab1b5829e27a83f6cd4e7699259a71baac4bf2)

You should be in marketing (if you aren't already), what a brilliant example of turning a vice into a virtue to fool customers!

Quote from: "Prea"

Quote from: "Martin TK"You do realize that your arguments are all circular, you keep rolling over the same old tired arguments time and time and time again, answering NOTHING.

That's exactly the point
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_1I7KiCuAU4k%2FSGseCrxRRJI%2FAAAAAAAABZg%2Fq_AahnOFjRU%2Fs400%2Flemniscate_kidicarus222.gif&hash=4aab1b5829e27a83f6cd4e7699259a71baac4bf2)

So you admit that your arguments are circular and that you aren't answering anything, which means you're not here to talk, you're here to preach.  That's not what this place is for.  But no worries!  The internets are vast and endless - I'm sure you'll find some place willing to buy whatever it is you're selling.