Happy Atheist Forum

Hi, i've often heard the following from ALOT of Theists and Agnostics.
- Nobody can prove God, and nobody can disprove God, so the most logical conclusion is that he does exist.
Lets see why proof and God doesnt mix so well.
what i am about to do is to show you Theists that the reason why i *cant disprove him* is because he doesnt exist.
Is it possible at all to prove or disprove anything that doesnt exist?
Can you prove that ive never had sex with your mother?
can you disprove that a invisible unicorn is standing right behind you?
to sum it up..: What kind of evidence would you ( in a theoretical sentence ) Expect in order to accept that God doesnt exist? - meaning is there any evidence even in a theoretical sentence that would be accepted as valid as disproof of God according to you?
If God now doesnt exist, then evidence both for him and against him would be impossible to find.
IF God does indeed exist, then you should be able to answer this question...
What kind of evidence would you consider valid as disproof of God?

it will be interesting to hear your answers, PLS point out flaws with this argument if you can find any, i dont wanna go around using noob arguments

The burden of evidence lies upon the claimant.  If your interlocutor claims god exists, ask him or her for evidence.  If you claim god doesn't exist, provide your evidence.

I agree with Thum (sorry your name is hard to spell so I hope abbreviations are okay ;)  It has something to do with certainty not necessarily implying concrete knowledge.

Quote from: "Whitney"I agree with Thum (sorry your name is hard to spell so I hope abbreviations are okay ;)  It has something to do with certainty not necessarily implying concrete knowledge.

Hiya Whitney,

The Christian conception of god is easily disprovable on logical bases alone.  But a larger conception of god is not, as you obviously understand, is not so easily done.  In that circumstance, the reasonable position to take, imo, is to concede ignorance and ask for evidence.  By that reasoning, I am an atheist; I have no faith, and I find the evidence entirely unconvincing.

eta:  Grand Prairie native here.  

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"The burden of evidence lies upon the claimant.  If your interlocutor claims god exists, ask him or her for evidence.  If you claim god doesn't exist, provide your evidence.

Why do atheists ask theists for evidence of something which atheists have already filtered out as a possibility? If you genuinely really want evidence, you should seek it yourself. If you have a good look and you can't find any, then carry on not believing. But asking theists for evidence isn't really being honest because when the question is asked the motives are usually ridicule rather than really wanting to see evidence. When an atheist asks me for evidence,what I hear is "I don't really want evidence, I've made up my mind already, I just want to ridicule you". It's very transparent and any atheist who genuinely wants evidence would seek it themselves.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"The burden of evidence lies upon the claimant.  If your interlocutor claims god exists, ask him or her for evidence.  If you claim god doesn't exist, provide your evidence.

Why do atheists ask theists for evidence of something which atheists have already filtered out as a possibility? If you genuinely really want evidence, you should seek it yourself.

Trust me, I have, for about 35 years. Also, I've only disregarded "god" as a possibility because of the extreme paucity of evidence supporting his existence.

QuoteIf you have a good look and you can't find any, then carry on not believing. But asking theists for evidence isn't really being honest because when the question is asked the motives are usually ridicule rather than really wanting to see evidence.

Actually, my motive is to cause someone who is preaching at me to actually examine the beliefs he or she purports to hold.  When I wish to ridicule someone, I turn to sarcasm, or simple pointing and laughing.

QuoteWhen an atheist asks me for evidence,what I hear is "I don't really want evidence, I've made up my mind already, I just want to ridicule you". It's very transparent and any atheist who genuinely wants evidence would seek it themselves.

This may be what you hear, but I submit you should give dissentients the benefit of the doubt and actually address their questions.  Any faith so weak that it cannot withstand questioning is no faith worthy of my attention.

Finally, if you make a positive claim without any evidence, you've no reason to be bothered when it is disregarded.  As Christopher Hitchens wrote:  "A claim advanced without evidence may be discarded without evidence."

You've probably spent those 35 years reinforcing to yourself your own beliefs rather than looking for evidence to support other possibilities. Besides, if you're satisfied after all that time that your view is correct, why bother to ask theists for evidence? It sounds to me like reinforcing and ridiculing. I don't think you really have any interest in questioning your own views at all.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"You've probably spent those 35 years reinforcing to yourself your own beliefs rather than looking for evidence to support other possibilities. Besides, if you're satisfied after all that time that your view is correct, why bother to ask theists for evidence? It sounds to me like reinforcing and ridiculing. I don't think you really have any interest in questioning your own views at all.

1) I've already explained why I ask for evidence, above.  Please look back over that reply if for some reason it seems unclear to you.

2) You keep speculating on my motives, I don't care.  I'll leave you to your cherished illusions.  Your opinion of me is none of my business.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"You've probably spent those 35 years reinforcing to yourself your own beliefs rather than looking for evidence to support other possibilities.

The very same charge can be levelled at the believer, as long as we're speculating on motives.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Besides, if you're satisfied after all that time that your view is correct, why bother to ask theists for evidence?

Our answers are satisfactory for now, given the current state of the evidence.  New evidence, as well as new arguments, can always come to light.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I don't think you really have any interest in questioning your own views at all.

Again, see my first point.

Also, you don't know any of us.  You have no basis for that conclusion in reference to people with whom you are unfamiliar.

Quote from: "The Black Jester"

Quote from: "Filanthropod"You've probably spent those 35 years reinforcing to yourself your own beliefs rather than looking for evidence to support other possibilities.

The very same charge can be levelled at the believer, as long as we're speculating on motives.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Besides, if you're satisfied after all that time that your view is correct, why bother to ask theists for evidence?

Our answers are satisfactory for now, given the current state of the evidence.  New evidence, as well as new arguments, can always come to light.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I don't think you really have any interest in questioning your own views at all.

Again, see my first point.

Also, you don't know any of us.  You have no basis for that conclusion in reference to people with whom you are unfamiliar.

I certainly agree that, as well as many atheists, there are a lot of theists who spend more time reinforcing what they already think rather than questioning their own views or seeking evidence to support other possibilities. That doesn't however change that fact that many atheists do it.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"

Quote from: "The Black Jester"

Quote from: "Filanthropod"You've probably spent those 35 years reinforcing to yourself your own beliefs rather than looking for evidence to support other possibilities.

The very same charge can be levelled at the believer, as long as we're speculating on motives.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Besides, if you're satisfied after all that time that your view is correct, why bother to ask theists for evidence?

Our answers are satisfactory for now, given the current state of the evidence.  New evidence, as well as new arguments, can always come to light.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I don't think you really have any interest in questioning your own views at all.

Again, see my first point.

Also, you don't know any of us.  You have no basis for that conclusion in reference to people with whom you are unfamiliar.

I certainly agree that, as well as many atheists, there are a lot of theists who spend more time reinforcing what they already think rather than questioning their own views or seeking evidence to support other possibilities. That doesn't however change that fact that many atheists do it.

Luke 6:42

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the bible. I take it you were a christian.

You can always look it up, if you're interested in see other viewpoints.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"You can always look it up, if you're interested in see other viewpoints.

I'm not sure anything in the bible is your viewpoint. Why mention a biblical verse?

Perhaps I thought it pertinent.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"That doesn't however change that fact that many atheists do it.

"Many," even if true, does not necessarily include Thumpalumpacus.  You do not know him.  And I said the same charge could be levelled at the believer, I did not say it would be a more fair an accusation.  My attempt was to demonstrate how fallacious it would be to make such a blanket statement about specific individuals whom I have never met, and with whom I have never conversed in any other context.

Quote from: "The Black Jester"

Quote from: "Filanthropod"That doesn't however change that fact that many atheists do it.

"Many," even if true, does not necessarily include Thumpalumpacus.  You do not know him.  And I said the same charge could be levelled at the believer, I did not say it would be a more fair an accusation.  My attempt was to demonstrate how fallacious it would be to make such a blanket statement about specific individuals whom I have never met, and with whom I have never conversed in any other context.

Ok, so I'll rephrase. Many people overall spend their lives merely reinforcing to themselves their already existing views, and have no honest interest in questioning them or seeking evidence either way. All they want to do is feel that they are always right, and ridicule others. Many people overall do this.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"

Quote from: "The Black Jester"

Quote from: "Filanthropod"That doesn't however change that fact that many atheists do it.

"Many," even if true, does not necessarily include Thumpalumpacus.  You do not know him.  And I said the same charge could be levelled at the believer, I did not say it would be a more fair an accusation.  My attempt was to demonstrate how fallacious it would be to make such a blanket statement about specific individuals whom I have never met, and with whom I have never conversed in any other context.

Ok, so I'll rephrase. Many people overall spend their lives merely reinforcing to themselves their already existing views, and have no honest interest in questioning them or seeking evidence either way. All they want to do is feel that they are always right, and ridicule others. Many people overall do this.

Personally, I've found that to be the case with some people I've met, and with myself at certain points in my life, but I've met many people who are very open to changing their minds about many things.  I myself have had a few changes of mind on these matters, the more I investigated particular lines of evidence and modes of thinking.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Why do atheists ask theists for evidence of something which atheists have already filtered out as a possibility? If you genuinely really want evidence, you should seek it yourself.

Because theists say they have evidence. The problem is that all the evidence to date isn't good enough. So we ask them to trot out their gods so we can have a look at them...maybe even ask a few questions. But no gods show up. Hell, we can't even get a dead saint to say anything.

QuoteIf you have a good look and you can't find any, then carry on not believing.

We do.

QuoteBut asking theists for evidence isn't really being honest because when the question is asked the motives are usually ridicule rather than really wanting to see evidence.

That is not entirely true. Yes, I'll agree to a degree with your statement, but when the theist isn't being honest, well, he'll get a bit of the same.

QuoteWhen an atheist asks me for evidence,what I hear is "I don't really want evidence, I've made up my mind already, I just want to ridicule you".

Very well then. What evidence of any gods can you share with us?

QuoteIt's very transparent and any atheist who genuinely wants evidence would seek it themselves.

I am seeking it. I'm asking you. Present your evidence and we'll sift through it.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"

Quote from: "The Black Jester"

Quote from: "Filanthropod"That doesn't however change that fact that many atheists do it.

"Many," even if true, does not necessarily include Thumpalumpacus.  You do not know him.  And I said the same charge could be levelled at the believer, I did not say it would be a more fair an accusation.  My attempt was to demonstrate how fallacious it would be to make such a blanket statement about specific individuals whom I have never met, and with whom I have never conversed in any other context.

Ok, so I'll rephrase. Many people overall spend their lives merely reinforcing to themselves their already existing views, and have no honest interest in questioning them or seeking evidence either way. All they want to do is feel that they are always right, and ridicule others. Many people overall do this.

Do you? And if not how do you not do it?

Quote from: "Filanthropod"But asking theists for evidence isn't really being honest because when the question is asked the motives are usually ridicule rather than really wanting to see evidence.

One of the things that brings people to an atheistic world view is scepticism. If you think you have evidence for the existance of a deity post it here please so I can read it.

I prophesy that you will do one of the following.

a) Not respond to this post.
b) Claim some wooberish nonsense that I am incapable of understanding the evidence
c) Claim I don't really want evidence
d) Claim I won't consider the evidence, because I've made my mind up already
e) Claim you have no evidence
f) Make some other fatuous comment to wriggle out of presenting any evidence.

The one thing you will not do is provide the evidence you claim you have.

Quote from: "Tank"I prophesy that you will do one of the following.

a) Not respond to this post.
b) Claim some wooberish nonsense that I am incapable of understanding the evidence
c) Claim I don't really want evidence
d) Claim I won't consider the evidence, because I've made my mind up already
e) Claim you have no evidence
f) Make some other fatuous comment to wriggle out of presenting any evidence.

The one thing you will not do is provide the evidence you claim you have.

or g) claim that the evidence is all around us, but that we don't see it.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"The Christian conception of god is easily disprovable on logical bases alone.  But a larger conception of god is not, as you obviously understand, is not so easily done.

Interesting. Please explain.

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "Tank"I prophesy that you will do one of the following.

a) Not respond to this post.
b) Claim some wooberish nonsense that I am incapable of understanding the evidence
c) Claim I don't really want evidence
d) Claim I won't consider the evidence, because I've made my mind up already
e) Claim you have no evidence
f) Make some other fatuous comment to wriggle out of presenting any evidence.

The one thing you will not do is provide the evidence you claim you have.

or g) claim that the evidence is all around us, but that we don't see it.

Quite so, that would be under my category 'f' as I simply could not be arsed to go through all the winging whining apologetics arguments.

No, Tank. There's no way in which I do it because I don't do it.

Do you? If so, how?

Quote from: "Filanthropod"No, Tank. There's no way in which I do it because I don't do it.

Do you? If so, how?

Sorry that made no sense at all, please try again.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Why do atheists ask theists for evidence of something which atheists have already filtered out as a possibility? If you genuinely really want evidence, you should seek it yourself. If you have a good look and you can't find any, then carry on not believing. But asking theists for evidence isn't really being honest because when the question is asked the motives are usually ridicule rather than really wanting to see evidence. When an atheist asks me for evidence,what I hear is "I don't really want evidence, I've made up my mind already, I just want to ridicule you". It's very transparent and any atheist who genuinely wants evidence would seek it themselves.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"You've probably spent those 35 years reinforcing to yourself your own beliefs rather than looking for evidence to support other possibilities. Besides, if you're satisfied after all that time that your view is correct, why bother to ask theists for evidence? It sounds to me like reinforcing and ridiculing. I don't think you really have any interest in questioning your own views at all.

See.... this is something I've thought on all day and it still pisses me off to no end....
You assume too damn much about people who do not share your beliefs.  Being told what I think, how I think and why I think it is incredibly presumptuous and altogether annoying.  You have no clue who I am or what I do or how I came to be where I'm at in my life.  I ask for evidence because I want to know if your ideas are founded in reality or in the fantastical so that I know how you think.  I don't care what you believe or don't believe as long as you don't preach to me or tell me how I need to think.  You don't like that?  Tough shit.  I came to my way of thinking by educating myself.  You apparently, gathering from a few of your posts so far on this forum, are uneducated in mathematics and science and probably a few other subjects related to critical thinking.  Whereas most of the rest of us are, several of us hold multiple degrees in the sciences you know so little about.

KDBeads...Certain things bother you, don't they? You are incredibly bothered when someone, and not just anyone, but specifically someone who you disagree with, makes an assumption about atheists (and by extension, you). It means a lot to you that people, and not just anyone, but specifically people who you disagree with, understand atheists (and by extension, you) Why does that bother you so much? Why does it get up your nose? You don't care what I believe, but you care what I might think of atheists (and by extension, you). I'm a stranger, why should you care what I think about atheists (and by extension, you)? It seems a bit childish and insecure, doesn't it? I don't see the fuss. If someone makes an assumption about me, I find it very amusing but it certainly doesn't get me all hot under the collar the way it does you. Another funny thing is that you ask me for evidence for what I believe yet you care not what I believe, and simultaneously, somehow, you also want to know how I think. Exactly what do you want? Do you know? I think all you want is an excuse to ridicule those who you disagree with. Many atheists do that, I've found. That's not an assumption, that's a fact. You also have a weird desire to tell me just how clever you and your fellow atheists are. I am so unimpressed by your self righteousness and you self proclaimed superintelligence, you can't even begin to realise.

Basically, everything you're saying, which also sums up what a lot of atheists say (again not an assumption, but a fact) is this :

I'm so clever, please acknowledge that, I really need your validation
Look at me, I'm an individual, we're not the same (based on what I've seen ---> excuse me while I laugh my head off), please acknowledge my individuality!

Look, don't get me wrong. Some of you are quite clever. Some of you are brilliant at semantic games, especially with your beloved word : {A-The}-ISM. Sorry but I can't acknowledge your individuality as many of you seem to be clones of each other.

Again, sorry, but that's how I see a lot of atheists. If you don't like it, well...


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This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=72163#p72163 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=72163#p72163) .

Looks like the shoe is on the other foot (just pecause you didn't use one word to insult someone doesn't mean it is okay)...since I already gave you a verbal for sockpuppets you are now on official warning one for personal insults.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"KDBeads...Certain things bother you, don't they? You are incredibly bothered when someone, and not just anyone, but specifically someone who you disagree with, makes an assumption about atheists (and by extension, you). It means a lot to you that people, and not just anyone, but specifically people who you disagree with, understand atheists (and by extension, you) Why does that bother you so much? Why does it get up your nose? You don't care what I believe, but you care what I might think of atheists (and by extension, you). I'm a stranger, why should you care what I think about atheists (and by extension, you)? It seems a bit childish and insecure, doesn't it? I don't see the fuss. If someone makes an assumption about me, I find it very amusing but it certainly doesn't get me all hot under the collar the way it does you. Another funny thing is that you ask me for evidence for what I believe yet you care not what I believe, and simultaneously, somehow, you also want to know how I think. Exactly what do you want? Do you know? I think all you want is an excuse to ridicule those who you disagree with. Many atheists do that, I've found. That's not an assumption, that's a fact. You also have a weird desire to tell me just how clever you and your fellow atheists are. I am so unimpressed by your self righteousness and you self proclaimed superintelligence, you can't even begin to realise.

Basically, everything you're saying, which also sums up what a lot of atheists say (again not an assumption, but a fact) is this :

I'm so clever, please acknowledge that, I really need your validation
Look at me, I'm an individual, we're not the same (based on what I've seen ---> excuse me while I laugh my head off), please acknowledge my individuality!

Look, don't get me wrong. Some of you are quite clever. Some of you are brilliant at semantic games, especially with your beloved word : {A-The}-ISM. Sorry but I can't acknowledge your individuality as many of you seem to be clones of each other.

Again, sorry, but that's how I see a lot of atheists. If you don't like it, well...


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ADMIN BREAK:
This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=72163#p72163 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=72163#p72163) .

Looks like the shoe is on the other foot (just pecause you didn't use one word to insult someone doesn't mean it is okay)...since I already gave you a verbal for sockpuppets you are now on official warning one for personal insults.

Have you not read the above posts? Why do you keep repeating yourself placing non-believers under one umbrella?

Quote from: "Filanthropod"I think all you want is an excuse to ridicule those who you disagree with. Many atheists do that, I've found. That's not an assumption, that's a fact.

Again. You assume too damn much.  I do not ridicule based on religion alone.  And that is a fact.  

Furthermore you are the one on here telling us that we don't believe in whatever because we have closed our minds to your way of thinking.  You are the one with a closed mind.  And I still stand by my claim of you having no clue when it comes to science, scientific method, scientific theory, mathematics and basic critical thinking skills.  'Superintellegence' was not mentioned by anyone but you.  I am educated.

Quote from: "Filanthropod"Basically, everything you're saying, which also sums up what a lot of atheists say (again not an assumption, but a fact) is this :

I'm so clever, please acknowledge that, I really need your validation
Look at me, I'm an individual, we're not the same (based on what I've seen ---> excuse me while I laugh my head off), please acknowledge my individuality!

Look, don't get me wrong. Some of you are quite clever. Some of you are brilliant at semantic games, especially with your beloved word : {A-The}-ISM. Sorry but I can't acknowledge your individuality as many of you seem to be clones of each other.

Again, sorry, but that's how I see a lot of atheists. If you don't like it, well...

As for what I want?  For people like you to quit lumping us all into one group and telling us what we think. Like the above bit of dribble.

Quote from: "JoElite"Is it possible at all to prove or disprove anything that doesnt exist?
Can you prove that ive never had sex with your mother?
can you disprove that a invisible unicorn is standing right behind you?

I might be able to disprove that you've had sex with my mother with some medical examinations, or disprove that an invisible unicorn is standing behind me with thermal imaging, or some spray-paint.

God CAN be disproved to some degree.  You can see that there is no one living in the clouds using satellites.  When this was proven, theists simply stopped saying that he lived in the clouds.  You can disprove the existence of God as described in the bible, by...

Uncovering more and more and more and more and more and more evidence for evolution, or the big bang, or the age of the Earth (4.5 billion years).
Finding paradoxes in his attributes:

QuoteIf God is Omnipotent, could he create a boulder so heavy that he himself would be unable to lift it?

QuoteCan God sin? If God cannot sin, is He truly omnipotent?

Quote from: "Epicurus"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Quote from: "Karen Owens"Can omniscient God, who knows the future, find The omnipotence to change his future mind?

A little extra thought shows very plainly that omnipotence contradicts itself, and therefore, cannot truly exist.  Omniscience and Omnipotence disprove each other, and Benevolence cannot be attributed to an all powerful being (and vis versa).  So God could definitely not be Omnipotent, Benevolent, or Omniscient.  So if he does exist, why are we calling him God?  It is impossible to deductively prove a negative argument.  Inductive reasoning, however, can strongly indicate nonexistence.

A quote I picked up from someone else on here: "Absence of evidence of a thing that is claimed to be common and plentiful, everywhere that humanity is able to search, is for all practical purposes, evidence of absence." It's entirely true.

QuoteIt's very transparent and any atheist who genuinely wants evidence would seek it themselves.

We did seek it. There was none. Thus we are Atheists. If you have evidence, please present it.

QuoteWhen an atheist asks me for evidence,what I hear is "I don't really want evidence, I've made up my mind already, I just want to ridicule you".

You probably wouldn't think that if you actually had evidence that a god existed. An atheist would probably ridicule you because hundreds of theists have come before you, each with their own idea of what a god is, none able to prove that the idea is not just made up. Essentially to some, you are nothing more than a door-to-door salesmen or a telemarketer, selling products that are useless, phony, or simply a gimmick.

QuoteBut asking Atheists for evidence isn't really being honest because when the question is asked the motives are usually ridicule rather than really wanting to see evidence.

I added an 'a' somewhere in there, now the phrase reflects how things actually work out in the real world.

Filanthropod: Why did you join this Forum if you have such a low opinion of Atheists?  You have a very low bar of what it means to be ridiculed.  When we point out flaws in your logic, we're not Ridiculing you.  We're applying a Socratic method, arriving at answers by asking questions.

You say that we are missing some obvious evidence for God's existence, and then recoil into an astounding level of denial and defensiveness when someone ask about the nature of this evidence. PLEASE, If anyone start ridiculing you, I, personally will go off on them.  You have my word on that.  Tell us all, open a new thread, shout it from the rooftops, THIS IS THE EVIDENCE OF GOD!!!!

I am open to a lot of spiritual concepts, and I'm glad to listen if something in the Bible is confirmed.  I am an Atheist, not because I've locked myself into closed minded dogmatic rejection of all things spiritual.  I'm an Atheist because I have always wanted to learn everything.  What I learned in that process taught me that The Bible isn't true, and God probably isn't real.  But I still want to learn everything.  So please, tell me what this magnificent evidence of God is.  What have I been missing out on in my Atheist Ignorance?

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"The Christian conception of god is easily disprovable on logical bases alone.  But a larger conception of god is not, as you obviously understand, is not so easily done.

Interesting. Please explain.

Sure.  An omnipotent, omnibenificent god would certainly not have made such a screwed-up world; and the god which had made this world is either amoral, evil, or plainly incompetent.

So far as a deist god is concerned, there are no such firm holds on such a slippery object.

"Hi, i've often heard the following from ALOT of Theists and Agnostics.
- Nobody can prove God, and nobody can disprove God, so the most logical conclusion is that he does exist."

This argument and discussion is as old as the belief in gods, it truly is.  There are a lot of arguments like yours out there, and like yours, they have merit.  I agree with the premise from one respondent that the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.

I do find one thing particularly interesting in my 30 years of studying the bible and doing the whole thinking process thing.  Most atheists have a greater understanding/knowledge of what is in the Christian bible than do most Christians.  Recently a poll showed that nearly 2/3 of all modern Christians could NOT name one single prophet from the old testament and nearly half believed that Moses was one of the 12 disciples.

I challenge any theist to read a few books written by atheists, then once they understand the stance most atheists will take, come and debate your belief system, but I also warn them to read their own bible, and to do so with eyes yet unseen, meaning to read it from the position of someone who has not been indoctrinated.  Therein lies a huge problem though, because FAITH and BELIEF have usually been such a part of the Theist's life, it is virtually impossible to step back and look at religion from a different perspective.

Again, just my carefully thought out position, open to discussion and dismissal...

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"The Christian conception of god is easily disprovable on logical bases alone.  But a larger conception of god is not, as you obviously understand, is not so easily done.

Interesting. Please explain.

Sure.  An omnipotent, omnibenificent god would certainly not have made such a screwed-up world; and the god which had made this world is either amoral, evil, or plainly incompetent.

So far as a deist god is concerned, there are no such firm holds on such a slippery object.

But I think there is a pretty firm hold. Why would there be any reason for a deist to suspect that a "deist god" exists and created the universe? I see no difference beween gods. They all come from the same place, don't they?

I agree with your outlook.  I'm just addressing each their individually-assigned "attributes".  It is in that sense that I regard the deist god as more difficult to refute, because there are fewer positive claims made.

Also, my god comes from Hoboken, NJ.