Happy Atheist Forum

I had a nice long conversation with a theist friend of mine today about why women submit to the point of ridiculousness to their husbands or most any man for that matter.  She doesn't understand it either.  Mind you, she's right at 61, devout christian and she doesn't 'get it'.  We have 2 mutual friends who literally confuse us on a weekly basis.  One, even though she holds a job and does volunteer work at 65, has to come home from work and make her husband lunch everyday even though she has places she needs to be.  As in a cooked lunch, not a sandwich.  The other, same age with severe knee and hip problems, got home one day and found that her husband had traded in her car, the only one she could get in and out of without hurting herself, on a massive F350 that he refuses to drive and leaves her to struggle getting in and out of.  She didn't complain or even get upset.
Seriously we are    It's something I've tried to figure out for years even though I grew up in the mindset.  And seeing these older ladies struggling to keep up with the demands of their submission because god says they have to, well it just fries a few circuits.  And for what it's worth, women's lib is an evil topic of conversation out here.  MOST women are like this to some degree or another here.  It's odd.

I'm just wondering WHY most religions out there insist that women be subjugated and without rights.  What would be the reason to keep women under thumb so to speak?  This goes even for the religions that don't have a story of Eden and Eve with the apple.

Because you can bet your last dollar that such a religion wasn't started and developed by a woman/women who thought all women should be subjugated and treated like a second class citizens.

Maybe in a few thousand years feminists will start a religion. Muslims will bomb the Holy Feminitheists Church because a female prophet is ridiculous*.
And Christians will hate her because her miracles will consist of abortions. No "impregnating marry" crap.  :shake:

Quote from: "Gawen"Because you can bet your last dollar that such a religion wasn't started and developed by a woman/women who thought all women should be subjugated and treated like a second class citizens.

Point... but....... it still leaves the questions of why men felt they had to subjugate women and why didn't the women fight back?  It just doesn't compute for me.

The winner makes the rules. As men are aggressive with other men the most aggressive man wins. IF one concedes that that men are general more aggressive than women then women are simply collaterally damage in men's greed for power over other men. That's a huge generalisation but I think the OP is addressing the general situation of religious women?

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "Gawen"Because you can bet your last dollar that such a religion wasn't started and developed by a woman/women who thought all women should be subjugated and treated like a second class citizens.

Point... but....... it still leaves the questions of why men felt they had to subjugate women and why didn't the women fight back?  It just doesn't compute for me.

Well, men were the protectors...the fighters...and women stayed home in the cave or hut with the youngsters. I can just hear it now..."If I'm putting myself on the line every day until I'm dead at 30, well, yer just gonna do what I want to do."

Bleed that all the way down to the Abrahamic religions and those superstitions and if you're a woman, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Why they still hold to this class and gender distinction is mindboggling and an abomination.

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "Gawen"Because you can bet your last dollar that such a religion wasn't started and developed by a woman/women who thought all women should be subjugated and treated like a second class citizens.

Point... but....... it still leaves the questions of why men felt they had to subjugate women and why didn't the women fight back?  It just doesn't compute for me.

Quote from: "Gawen"Well, men were the protectors...the fighters...and women stayed home in the cave or hut with the youngsters. I can just hear it now..."If I'm putting myself on the line every day until I'm dead at 30, well, yer just gonna do what I want to do."

Bleed that all the way down to the Abrahamic religions and those superstitions and if you're a woman, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Why they still hold to this class and gender distinction is mindboggling and an abomination.

I don't thing the dominance thing was men over women, it's which guy gets to the top of the pile. You look at the alpha men and women in business and politics, they are almost without exception complete bastards!

A male of a species "dominating" over a female of the same species is relatively common in nature. Animals just don't know any better and do it that way because that's how it's always been done. Female humans can think for themselves, realize this inequality, and so the men had to find a way to contain them and incidentally, they say it's because it's how it's always been done.

Anthropologically it would seem the subjugation of women has to do with sexual dimorphism and the fact that woman were seen as the creators of life.  I think it makes sense that men in general felt ind of screwed over - they're generally bigger and stronger and find a natural place in society in the role of hunter and protector, yet women are obviously very powerful as they are the ones who physically produce children.  So, males feel threatened, they take control (which is easy to do re: sexual dimorphism) and bam - I'm a whore for wearing a tank top AND I'm evil for having the audacity to control my ability to reproduce while men are big dumb jerks who don't 'get it.'

Thankfully we understand now that men are equally needed in the creation of life as women, modern society makes sexual dimorphism a non issue, and there's no reason for either gender to feel they have to control or manipulate the other, right?  Right?!?

Hahaha, this is all ridiculously simplified of course - specific cultures developed differently because of a huge number of culturally specific factors, but I think sexual dimorphism and childbirth probably played a big part in the subjugation of women in general.

Quote from: "hismikeness"A male of a species "dominating" over a female of the same species is relatively common in nature. Animals just don't know any better and do it that way because that's how it's always been done.

Well.... not always.  It's usually an alpha that dominates, and alphas can be male or female, just depends on who has enough attitude to dominate and keep it that way.  I have an alpha dog that is female and blind at that, she runs the 3 boys into corners just for bothering her some days.  I've seen heifers run a herd and terrorize bulls.  There's a herd of zebra out here where there is a dominant female.  Heck I just recently sold a hen that was mounting my rooster!  Repeatedly!  And should we mention a herd of elephants has no adult males unless it's breeding season?
Yes, for the most part the male of the species is usually bigger and can dominate but it's not uncommon for females to run the group.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Anthropologically it would seem the subjugation of women has to do with sexual dimorphism and the fact that woman were seen as the creators of life.  I think it makes sense that men in general felt ind of screwed over - they're generally bigger and stronger and find a natural place in society in the role of hunter and protector, yet women are obviously very powerful as they are the ones who physically produce children.  So, males feel threatened, they take control (which is easy to do re: sexual dimorphism)...

Now that makes a bit of sense, I hadn't thought about it that way.  Wonder if religion, in part, was created to help keep women subjugated.....  Hmmm something to think about.

Quote from: "KDbeads"Now that makes a bit of sense, I hadn't thought about it that way.  Wonder if religion, in part, was created to help keep women subjugated.....  Hmmm something to think about.

Undoubtedly. Men only have secondary control of their reproduction, if men can control women they have tighter control over their reproduction and ensure that the offspring they invest in are actually there own. Any male that is more possessive of their mate is more likely to reproduce than one that is less so. Natural selection sucks.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "KDbeads"Now that makes a bit of sense, I hadn't thought about it that way.  Wonder if religion, in part, was created to help keep women subjugated.....  Hmmm something to think about.

Undoubtedly. Men only have secondary control of their reproduction, if men can control women they have tighter control over their reproduction and ensure that the offspring they invest in are actually there own. Any male that is more possessive of their mate is more likely to reproduce than one that is less so. Natural selection sucks.

This is why women don't date the nice guy vs the controlling asshole..

I think the big points have already been touched on.  I think religious submission is an attempt to justify female oppression.  It was Eve who brought the pain, suffering, toiling, etc. to the world, and Adam was made to rule over her.  It was Pandora who let diseases, pain, and suffering into the world.  When the people of Athens voted for Athena as their deity of choice over Neptune, that caused women to be "under" the men to help heal Neptune's bruised ego.  The stories go on and on.  They are all the same:  naughty women brought this punishment on themselves.

But I think the stories came about AFTER the idea of female submission was already in place economically and politically.  Post hoc justification, if you will.  And in the past, women were more likely to die in childbirth than today, requiring men to reproduce with more than one woman to guarantee the continuation of his bloodline.  So women were viewed more as commodities than as humans.  Heck, just look at how many of the first women came to the U.S.  The first settlement ships were all, or mostly, men.  Once here, they wanted women.  Enter a ship full of women that men could buy for 150 pounds of their best tobacco.  Clearly, they were just another supply coming over from the mother country.

So the question that was raised here that I think is very interesting is why have women put up with it for so long?  Why haven't more women slit the throats of men in the middle of the night?  Why don't more women flee?  Join together and change things?  The same reason slaves throughout history have not successfully done so:  Whoever has the weapons and the law on their side, wins.  Just look at the young girl who was 14 in the news two days ago who tried to flee her forced marriage.  She was publicly flogged.  In the U.S., there may not be public floggings, but women still get paid less than men for the same work.  Compare the number of male and female CEO's, political leaders, etc., and it's clear to see who has the economic and political power in the U.S.  Add children into the picture and women are going to do what they think they have to do in order to try to provide for and protect their children.  In most cases, that means staying put and following the status quo.

As hard as it might be to swallow, I think male domination throughout most of history is due to biology.  Men typically are physically stronger and physically more aggressive than women.  I hate to admit it at times, but my skinny smoker husband who never works out could kick my butt with one hand tied behind his back.  Men can overpower women physically, so that threat, even when not openly spoken or demonstrated publicly, is always present.  That keeps a lot of women submitting because an alternative doesn't seem to be possible from a cursory glance.

Quote from: "Businessocks"As hard as it might be to swallow, I think male domination throughout most of history is due to biology.  Men typically are physically stronger and physically more aggressive than women.  I hate to admit it at times, but my skinny smoker husband who never works out could kick my butt with one hand tied behind his back.  Men can overpower women physically, so that threat, even when not openly spoken or demonstrated publicly, is always present.  That keeps a lot of women submitting because an alternative doesn't seem to be possible from a cursory glance.

You don't have to hate to admit it, it's a biological fact - humans are sexually dimorphic in that men are generally bigger and stronger than women.  It's not something anyone should be ashamed of or try to deny.  I think the fact that modern society makes the biological differences between the sexes less and less of an issue, yet the subjugation in some cases is still very much an issue is interesting.  I think that's where multiple, often societally specific factors come into play.

Quote from: "TheJackel"This is why women don't date the nice guy vs the controlling asshole..

;)

Quote from: "pinkocommie"I think the fact that modern society makes the biological differences between the sexes less and less of an issue, yet the subjugation in some cases is still very much an issue is interesting.  I think that's where multiple, often societally specific factors come into play.

If you include religion in those societal factors I wholeheartedly agree.  There are high school girls out in this area who aim for nothing more than to get a husband that works at one of the mines and start producing kids.  No thought for her education, what she will do if he leaves or dies, nothing... they want to hand it all over to the man.  I haven't seen this attitude in the big cities I've lived in but out here, it's quite prevalent.  And disturbing.

Quote from: "KDbeads"I'm just wondering WHY most religions out there insist that women be subjugated and without rights.  What would be the reason to keep women under thumb so to speak?  This goes even for the religions that don't have a story of Eden and Eve with the apple.

We don't learn this stuff in Catholic school because it makes all the nuns get flustered and it's considered blasphemus by most old church heads. Hell, they couldn't even give us a straight answer about the incestuous stories in the Old Testament that the boys in my class found grossly amusing. Anyway, I know enough about Christianity to know that there was a woman before Eve. In Christian mythology, her name was Lillith. God had made her the same time he made Adam. Apparently, she defected because she wouldn't "lay down beneath" him (as in during sex); to her, that symbolized inequality between man and woman. I forgot what she did after that but whatever she did made God so mad that he gave Adam another wife, Eve. There's some literature that  implies the serpent that tempted Eve was Lillith her reptile form.

That story itself made me angry when I first read it at 13. Regardless of whether it's true or not (and clearly it's not), it is evident that Christianity is a man's religion (though, dare I say, not one for strong men). I hate that male-female equality is associated with evil. I'm no longer a Catholic but I'm terribly tempted to name any future daughter of mine Lillith.

Quote;)

Listen here WOMAN!, you're ruining my stereotyping

Quote from: "TheJackel"

Quote;)

Listen here WOMAN!, you're ruining my stereotyping lol
Yeah, yeah, I'm so unstereotypical it's not funny  

Yeah, I'm pretty stereotypical.  lol

Quote from: "elliebean"Yeah, I'm pretty stereotypical.  lol

Typical Texan Cheerleader  

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "TheJackel"

Quote;)

Listen here WOMAN!, you're ruining my stereotyping lol
Yeah, yeah, I'm so unstereotypical it's not funny  :)

Quote from: "TheJackel"

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "TheJackel"Listen here WOMAN!, you're ruining my stereotyping lol
Yeah, yeah, I'm so unstereotypical it's not funny  :)

 :blush:   I'm the one who took apart car engines and transmissions, the one who caught frogs and other fun critters, I don't do make-up, perfume, pink, frilly or dresses.  I hate dresses.  I like my power tools

Quote:blush:   I'm the one who took apart car engines and transmissions, the one who caught frogs and other fun critters, I don't do make-up, perfume, pink, frilly or dresses.  I hate dresses.  I like my power tools ;)

And btw, I always thought dresses are little girlish..  

this is the main reasons why women are treated like shitt in religious cultures ( based purely on scientific evidence ).
1. Religion stands for sexual oppression, ( Defined: You know that you are sexually oppressed when someone makes you feel ashamed over your naked body, when your ashamed of talking about sex, when someone yells at you or treats you like something disgusting if they see you act sexy, or if you act horny. Sexual oppression is when someone makes you deny your own nature.. )
This is one of the BIG issues with religion, its oppressing both men and women sexuality.

2. i would like to tell you what happens when you sexually oppress men.
Men produce some 50 million spermcells a day, not one, not 100 but 50 million..
This makes men extremely horny, and when you deny a man his sexuality he WILL ( this is scientifically proven ) see women as less of a being, he WILL find it to be right to treat women like shitt since the sexuality is SO oppressed he transforms his horny feelings into hate, and most of the time that hate goes out on women, he will see nothing wrong in rape or violence..

3. fear, Men are afraid of women, religious men are afraid of reason, they are afraid of being wrong..

How do we salve this problems?
1. STOP SEXUAL OPPRESSION ITS OUR NATURE TO WANT TO FUCK!.
2. DEMOCRACY WHERE THE REASONABLE WOMEN WE HAVE ON THIS PLANET CAN VOTE AND MAKE A CHANGE!.
3.  DO NOT LISTEN TO THE BIBLE AND ESPECIALLY NOT QURAN WHEN IT COMES TO MORALS, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!! Those books are ONLY stories, NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS..
Dont listen to them.

So for others who are reading this and trying to make sense of the world can you give us links to this scientific evidence please?  This way, in case we need to point it out to an annoying troll we can

Quote from: "KDbeads"So for others who are reading this and trying to make sense of the world can you give us links to this scientific evidence please?  This way, in case we need to point it out to an annoying troll we can

I agree, JoElite I would love to read the research papers that support your arguments!

Yeah, i couldnt find the original webbsite i saw this on but wikipedis does a very good job in covering this..
Quote from wikipedia: Sexual norms and sexual practice

Studies have shown that human sexual behavior does not generally fit neatly within structures imposed by societies or religions, with masturbation being almost universal, and pre-marital sex, serial monogamy, adultery, homosexuality, and paraphilia behavior being far more common than these societies are willing to acknowledge[citation needed]. Many societies which aggressively regulate sexual behavior tend to have high levels of hidden child sexual abuse or spousal abuse,[1] the public discussion of which is taboo in polite society. This behavior has been documented in Greenland, and Victorian England.[citation needed]
[edit] Social attitudes

READ MORE IN LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_norm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_norm)
REALLY sorry i couldnt find the original study, but ill be holding an eye out for it, and hope to find it soon so i can link more precisely what i mean..
but you can clearly see in the quote that sexual oppression leads to violence and child abuse.
And we all know that Religion is sexually oppressing as many as it possibly can.

Quote from: "JoElite"Yeah, i couldnt find the original webbsite i saw this on but wikipedis does a very good job in covering this..
Quote from wikipedia: Sexual norms and sexual practice

Studies have shown that human sexual behavior does not generally fit neatly within structures imposed by societies or religions, with masturbation being almost universal, and pre-marital sex, serial monogamy, adultery, homosexuality, and paraphilia behavior being far more common than these societies are willing to acknowledge[citation needed]. Many societies which aggressively regulate sexual behavior tend to have high levels of hidden child sexual abuse or spousal abuse,[1] the public discussion of which is taboo in polite society. This behavior has been documented in Greenland, and Victorian England.[citation needed]
[edit] Social attitudes

READ MORE IN LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_norm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_norm)
REALLY sorry i couldnt find the original study, but ill be holding an eye out for it, and hope to find it soon so i can link more precisely what i mean..
but you can clearly see in the quote that sexual oppression leads to violence and child abuse.
And we all know that Religion is sexually oppressing as many as it possibly can.

The problem is that without those pesky citations (note the [citation needed] indicators in the wiki article you posted) those claims are still unsubstantiated so the article doesn't actually help to prove anything.  Hopefully you can find the study, it sounds interesting.

Yes the study does sound interesting I'd love to read it if you can find it

ah ok, you guys asked for this one.. you better read em all xD
if this doesnt do, i dont know what will
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... 22&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=VYj_woVgA3EC&oi=fnd&pg=PA93&dq=%22sexual+repression+is%22&ots=ao6EF29FP3&sig=9DXWb62MGFUUHGQDDNqcBtw5Ah8#v=onepage&q=%22sexual%20repression%20is%22&f=false)

http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/i ... exual.html (http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/islam-is-powered-by-muslim-sexual.html)

http://www.chowk.com/articles/17000 (http://www.chowk.com/articles/17000)

http://www.livingscoop.com/watch.php?v=NTAx (http://www.livingscoop.com/watch.php?v=NTAx)

http://martininthemargins.blogspot.com/ ... exual.html (http://martininthemargins.blogspot.com/2009/06/iran-theocracy-misogyny-and-sexual.html)

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=25196 (http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=25196)

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/ ... -mqq2.html (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/frustration-fuels-acts-of-hatred-20100122-mqq2.html)

Can we now agree that the answer to the question on page 1 is: Sexual oppression.!?