Happy Atheist Forum

I have just recently been in the process of going from devout faithfulness to an atheist but when I after I came to terms with my new belief I got this strange urge to talk about it.  Kind of like "witnessing" atheism.  I never really ever wanted to talk about Jesus and what not.  I find myself agueing with my girlfreind (who's dad is a Lutheran paster an she is very religious)  and trying to debate with her and kind of pushing her away. I realize what it's doing to our relationship but I feel the need to bring it up when ever she talks about god and miricles and what not.  I'm not a person who thinks that religious people are " bad " or anything but I find myself wanting others to question things that they have been told like I have.  

I'm wondering if others ever feel the need to discuss their beliefs or try to "convert" people.

Please post an view, advise, or attitude on the matter.

Quote from: "JustAJ"I'm wondering if others ever feel the need to discuss their beliefs or try to "convert" people.

All the damn time. I refrain, however. Sometimes it's better to not make waves, especially when the desired results come with some very undesirable consequences.

Luckily, my wife is a de facto atheist, being Taiwanese, and my mother has a very laissez-faire attitude toward religion. The extended family, Appalachian Bible-bangers all the way. I don't visit them much.   As for co-workers, I find religion is best kept out of the workplace. Friends know I'm an atheist, most of them are either atheists, agnostics or just not very religious in either direction, so the urges I do feel to convert are usually directed toward public figures or people in the news. Then again, I live in a small college town, so the attitude here is pretty liberal and religion isn't really a big thing.

I have found myself steering conversations around to belief/faith/atheism much more than I used to. Partly I think it is down to the fact that I spend a lot more time considering these issues than I used to. Partly it is to discuss these issues via speaking than typing as I'm not a very fast typist and I can get through a lot more ideas when talking. I also find face-to-face communication of emotional and delicate issue more productive as you get to see body language and hear vocal inflections that are denied to us through the medium of the written word.

Maybe part of it stems from not wanting to be misunderstood.

I can't here, this area is not the place to question faith or sexuality.  So far anyone who has come out of either closet has been dealt with harshly, ie brick through windows, vandilization of property, etc...

I like to talk about religions, but I'm not interested in convincing anyone they should be an atheist.  It's kind of a weird position to be in I guess, because I have to deflect a lot of weird assumptions from people who think I am trying to change their mind.  I'm not shy about saying that I think they're wrong when I happen to disagree with them, I just don't expect them to care that I think they're wrong.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"I like to talk about religions, but I'm not interested in convincing anyone they should be an atheist.  It's kind of a weird position to be in I guess, because I have to deflect a lot of weird assumptions from people who think I am trying to change their mind.  I'm not shy about saying that I think they're wrong when I happen to disagree with them, I just don't expect them to care that I think they're wrong.

It's almost impossible to state an argument on such forums like this without being on one side of that coin or another. When people join forums like these they ought to expect to hear the opposing view, or arguments. It may at times sound like a conversion game but it really comes down to how much currency and value you have within your arguments. Hence, they are playing a circular game when they pull the "you are trying to change my mind card", especially in forums with opposing views.. Hence, if you are going to join in the discussion, or argument, you need to accept and expect the consequences of engagement. Everyone here has a choice to participate or remain on the sidelines. There is no excuse to call foul when you are knee deep in the argument. Thus, those types of arguments are deflections and have no meaning or substance to any argument being waged. ;)

I think wanting to talk about a recent personal paradigm shift is completely normal no matter who you are or what you believe.

I talk about atheism, freethought etc in real life about as much as I do on the forum but that's only because I'm involved in freethought community groups and volunteer projects....I don't particularly enjoy discussing religion with most people (most people don't want to think) because I don't feel the need to be that kind of teacher.

I think I just am more conserned about figuring out what I believe more than convinsong other people,  debateing it just makes u really have to think about what u really believe and why.

Yes, but when you really love someone, one of 2 things happens:
1) You care too much about them to see them persist in delusion, and try to entice them to question their faitn. This tends to lead to hostility.
2) Because you love them, you cannot bring yourself to see something wrong with their beliefs, and you fully accept them for everyting they are. This leads to harmony.
It's your call. My last girlfriend was a muslim. I wanted to use both of these approaches so badly, but #2 is the only one that actually helped the relationship.

Quote from: "KebertX"Yes, but when you really love someone, one of 2 things happens:
1) You care too much about them to see them persist in delusion, and try to entice them to question their faitn. This tends to lead to hostility.
2) Because you love them, you cannot bring yourself to see something wrong with their beliefs, and you fully accept them for everyting they are. This leads to harmony.
It's your call. My last girlfriend was a muslim. I wanted to use both of these approaches so badly, but #2 is the only one that actually helped the relationship.

Would you say that this applies in all cases, or that hostility is sometimes preferable to harmony? Or could there be more options?

For example:

I am adamantly, vocally, visibly, on the rare occasion violently opposed to intolerance, bigotry, hate, oppression, etc., especially of the organized variety.

I have a first cousin I was very close to since we were infants and grew up with almost as a brother, who I love the same as if he were actually my brother. After we had been seperated for a few years, as a young adult he had become involved in some serious criminal activities and was very soon apprehended and given a long prison sentence. During his incarceration, he also became affiliated with a known white supremacist hate group and rose within their ranks. I know this because I was one of the two people who maintained written communication with him during that time. As much as I disapproved, I tried to be understanding of his need to use whatever means available in order to survive his confinement amongst violent, racist psychopaths. He has now long since paroled, yet persists in his racist attitudes and continues to associate himself with the same types of people on the outside.

I'm sure there are plenty of things about my worldview and lifestyle of which he does not approve, either.

I don't know what kind of relationship I can expect to have with such a person.




So I don't.  



I'm just wondering what anyone else's take on this would be.

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "KebertX"Yes, but when you really love someone, one of 2 things happens:
1) You care too much about them to see them persist in delusion, and try to entice them to question their faitn. This tends to lead to hostility.
2) Because you love them, you cannot bring yourself to see something wrong with their beliefs, and you fully accept them for everyting they are. This leads to harmony.
It's your call. My last girlfriend was a muslim. I wanted to use both of these approaches so badly, but #2 is the only one that actually helped the relationship.

Would you say that this applies in all cases, or that hostility is sometimes preferable to harmony? Or could there be more options?

For example:

I am adamantly, vocally, visibly, on the rare occasion violently opposed to intolerance, bigotry, hate, oppression, etc., especially of the organized variety.

I have a first cousin I was very close to since we were infants and grew up with almost as a brother, who I love the same as if he were actually my brother. After we had been seperated for a few years, as a young adult he had become involved in some serious criminal activities and was very soon apprehended and given a long prison sentence. During his incarceration, he also became affiliated with a known white supremacist hate group and rose within their ranks. I know this because I was one of the two people who maintained written communication with him during that time. As much as I disapproved, I tried to be understanding of his need to use whatever means available in order to survive his confinement amongst violent, racist psychopaths. He has now long since paroled, yet persists in his racist attitudes and continues to associate himself with the same types of people on the outside.

I'm sure there are plenty of things about my worldview and lifestyle of which he does not approve, either.

I don't know what kind of relationship I can expect to have with such a person.




So I don't.  :shake:

You should perhaps have conversations with him on why he's racist, or doesn't associate with other races. It's likely that he has been brainwashed, or manipulated into using his anger and fears as an emotional attachment to other races. This is how religion brainwashes people on a daily basis by preying on peoples emotions in order to attach them to iconic symbols, objects, or concepts. It's how faith and devotion is engineered with obedience and  without question. And interestingly enough, prison is typically an acute environment to where such manipulation becomes easily submissive considering the Latino's, Blacks, Whites, ect. all segregate into protective groups, or gangs.. So I'm not sure he will ever overcome this unless he gets some serious help or therapy.

I pretend I'm hoeing a rather tough piece of ground...with big ass rocks in it. I'm not trying to convert the ground...just plant a few seeds.

That really sums it up well gawen.  I'm not aiming to "make" others agree with me i just want poeple to take a serious look at what they believe and THINK about it. I have a friend who said herself that the only reason she belives in God (catholic) is because she is just "Going with the flow of what everyone elce is doing".

Quote from: "pinkocommie"I like to talk about religions, but I'm not interested in convincing anyone they should be an atheist.  It's kind of a weird position to be in I guess, because I have to deflect a lot of weird assumptions from people who think I am trying to change their mind.  I'm not shy about saying that I think they're wrong when I happen to disagree with them, I just don't expect them to care that I think they're wrong.

Ce pensee, et toujours ce pensee.

"I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do." ~D. Dale Gulledge

Quote from: "JustAJ"I have just recently been in the process of going from devout faithfulness to an atheist but when I after I came to terms with my new belief I got this strange urge to talk about it.  Kind of like "witnessing" atheism.  I never really ever wanted to talk about Jesus and what not.  I find myself agueing with my girlfreind (who's dad is a Lutheran paster an she is very religious)  and trying to debate with her and kind of pushing her away. I realize what it's doing to our relationship but I feel the need to bring it up when ever she talks about god and miricles and what not.  I'm not a person who thinks that religious people are " bad " or anything but I find myself wanting others to question things that they have been told like I have.  

I'm wondering if others ever feel the need to discuss their beliefs or try to "convert" people.

Please post an view, advise, or attitude on the matter.

Don't try to teach the pigs to sing.

It's exhausting, useless, and potentially dangerous. There is no point in discussing it with them; they are either a skeptic or not. If the person is the least bit skeptic, sure maybe see if you can get somewhere with them. But a real believer, just keep on truckin' my friend. No point.

Yeah, i know what you mean dogs.  My girlfriends father is a Lutheran pastor.  She believes in it all, Tower of Babel, Noah's arc, Adam and Eve.  When i present her with very good evidence against any of these things, she get really angry and defensive.  Its hard to convince those who already think they know everything, because they read it and a book and all the fools around them believe it.

Quote from: "JustAJ"Yeah, i know what you mean dogs.  My girlfriends father is a Lutheran pastor.  She believes in it all, Tower of Babel, Noah's arc, Adam and Eve.  When i present her with very good evidence against any of these things, she get really angry and defensive.  Its hard to convince those who already think they know everything, because they read it and a book and all the fools around them believe it.

Memes are powerful things and we invest such a lot of emotion in them that logic can often bounce off like a pea on tank armour. All you can do is show by example that being an atheist is not a negative world view and it does not threaten most of the ideals she hold to.

I am always entering into ... ahem ... socratic debate against religious people. I don't actively seek religious people and call them out, but I also don't let comments slide.

As far as your girlfriend is concerned. Either you just have a frank discussion with her and let her know that you are not interested in that part of her life and that if you want to stay together either you don't discuss it anymore or you have civil debate.

If you can't let it go, then you may have to accept the fact that you've grown apart and move on.

When I find out that a person I am seeing is religious, it is pretty much a deal breaker. I can't stay with someone if I don't respect their intelligence. Fortunately most of my girlfriends have been atheist. Out of fairness, I always drop the A bomb pretty soon in the courtship.

I used to be very tolerant of religious ideas when I first became an atheist, but the longer I am an atheist, the more I have to say something when someone expresses silly beliefs, and that isn't just relegated to religion.  I know that I'm not going to deconvert the converted, but I like watching them dance around when I put them on the spot about their beliefs.

I know that I will have a terrible time living with someone that is unable to just keep their beliefs to themselves.  It makes it difficult to find women to have any kind of long lasting relationship with, but I think it is better that I don't have to stuff my disdain for stupidity.  I have tried it, and it's tremendously annoying.

Simple

There are three things I do not discuss






Money











Politics














and Religion

You will find me dead silent or leaving the room when any of those three enter a conversation.

It all bears explaining

I also forgot to add other interesting things like sexuality and abortion and capital punishment.  The first two are particularly hair raising.

It is hypocritical that I don't discuss religion and yet I am on a board like this, but in IRL, I avoid such topics. These kinds of things tend to end very badly with very hard feelings, and I have had situation that came to a head because the passion just runs way too high when it comes to religion, politics, and money (and usually all tend to end up mixed together).

I have a good friend and several other good friends who are devoutly religious.  My closest friend is as fundamentalist as the sky is blue.  I have never explicitly stated what I thought, but I can tell he knows from his occasional jabs and jibes.

I would rather keep it that way, and for me and him to go fishing or kayaking or shooting the shit then for us to waste our time on what we believe or don't believe.

This is just me though.  It is okay if you want to share you new feelings.  It will help you to accept what you have discovered and help you grow more as you learn.

Quote from: "deekayfry"There are three things I do not discuss
Money
Politics
and Religion
You will find me dead silent or leaving the room when any of those three enter a conversation.

I can understand caution, but absolute silence on things you care about is worrying.

Quote"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Me and the girl recently broke up due to her obsession that without religion I will be a different person.  But I still enjoy debateing with people over it.  I don't actively seek conflict but when it comes up I like to talk about belief and whatnot.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "deekayfry"There are three things I do not discuss
Money
Politics
and Religion
You will find me dead silent or leaving the room when any of those three enter a conversation.

I can understand caution, but absolute silence on things you care about is worrying.

Quote"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

 

I speak up, but those three things have for me personally have created a great deal of consternation.  As some of you probably know, my wife KDBeads pointed out that we live in a very intolerant area, we mean INTOLERANT.

When I discussed money with a land owner's wife, which the wife initiated, the land owner's husband threatened to kill me if I were to go to the Money Man about the land owner's mineral rights.  I confronted on him on the threat, and now I look at him as a father, and I am very fond of him.  Sometimes money would creep up in some of the convos with the wife, and I promptly stop her and say I will not talk money.

Discussing alternative views of religion could lead to blacklisting.  I mean even the denominations are at battle with each other.  There extreme cases of Church A vs. Church B vs Church C.

I also should be a little more specific, I stay away from those topic without a doubt at work, but in general I keep quiet even outside of work.

I hope that addresses some of your worries.  I understand why you would feel that way.

For these reasons, this is why I am HAF because it is a place for me and KDBeads to vent some of our frustration not being able to talk to sensible people.  It doesn't matter if they are atheistic or theistic or any thing else.  We would like to have open honest discussion that does not evolve to those people never talking to us again.

Quote from: "deekayfry"I also should be a little more specific, I stay away from those topic without a doubt at work, but in general I keep quiet even outside of work.

I said I can understand your position, well that's bullshit I have no idea.
But if things get to bad, Australia needs mining techs.

Quote from: "JustAJ"Me and the girl recently broke up due to her obsession that without religion I will be a different person.  But I still enjoy debateing with people over it.  I don't actively seek conflict but when it comes up I like to talk about belief and whatnot.

What led to your change of mind to become atheistic?

Quote from: "Tank"I have found myself steering conversations around to belief/faith/atheism much more than I used to.

Same here. I think because I'm over the Century mark now, I have less to fear...*chucklin*

QuotePartly I think it is down to the fact that I spend a lot more time considering these issues than I used to. Partly it is to discuss these issues via speaking than typing as I'm not a very fast typist and I can get through a lot more ideas when talking. I also find face-to-face communication of emotional and delicate issue more productive as you get to see body language and hear vocal inflections that are denied to us through the medium of the written word.

I would rather type it out these days. I have all mymaterials handy in the computer or sitting next to it. I simply cannot remember all I need to in "live" conversations these days. Must be cause I'm over the Century mark?...*laffin*

I became an atheist one night when I was talking to a friend and realized that if I had been born years before as an Indian or something I would believe in a rain god or something as much as I believe in god, or zues if I was born earlier. And that it's just what you have been told and the lies you've been fed.

Quote from: "JustAJ"I became an atheist one night when I was talking to a friend and realized that if I had been born years before as an Indian or something I would believe in a rain god or something as much as I believe in god, or zues if I was born earlier. And that it's just what you have been told and the lies you've been fed.

Yes that is an inconsistency that can be seen by young people.
You don't need sophisticated scientific knowledge.
All the murdering god does seems suspect to many.
And christians always looked like such dorks.

I like to tell pople I saw the other side of the coin, it wasn't as shiny but much more detailed.