Happy Atheist Forum

I heard this the other day and was instantly puzzled as to the motives of whoever proposed it. On one hand, it is just a building but on the other hand, it represents the religion which some crazy bastards used to justify killing 3000 people with passenger aircraft.

It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. To put it into perspective, if some christian fundamentalists blew up down town Islamabad, do you guys think that nine years later, the local muslims would be happy for a church to be built there?

I thought this was a very good vid:

[youtube:1t74mzkd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-loW4G3pw0[/youtube:1t74mzkd]


The obligatory Pat Condell fundy vid

[youtube:1t74mzkd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4[/youtube:1t74mzkd]

What are your opinions?

Thanks for the help Tank.

As amusing as Pat Condells videos are - I utterly distrusted them.

I did also here that the mosque is going to be in a derelict building about 2 (or perhaps) 3 New York City blocks away. And the leader behind the project teaches at a christen school.

This is a story that is very easy to sensationalize. "Mosque on ground zero!" - which isn't exactly true.

Then again! I am not American.

Quote from: "karadan"I heard this the other day and was instantly puzzled as to the motives of whoever proposed it. On one hand, it is just a building but on the other hand, it represents the religion which some crazy bastards used to justify killing 3000 people with passenger aircraft.

It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. To put it into perspective, if some christian fundamentalists blew up down town Islamabad, do you guys think that nine years later, the local muslims would be happy for a church to be built there?

I thought this was a very good vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-loW4G3 ... re=recentf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-loW4G3pw0&playnext_from=TL&videos=rWHHiuJAlkY&feature=recentf)

The obligatory Pat Condell fundy vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4&feature=related)

What are your opinions?

(I'm sorry, for some reason i was unable to embed the vids. Anyone have any ideas why it is no longer working?)

This
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-loW4G3pw0&playnext_from=TL&videos=rWHHiuJAlkY&feature=recentf
 Needs to be stripped down to this to work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-loW4G3pw0
Strip off the & and all characters to its right and embed the remainder.

Thus
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-loW4G3pw0[/youtube]
gives

[youtube:di1ucrhw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-loW4G3pw0[/youtube:di1ucrhw]

I vote for option 4....don't care  or option 5 I don't like that Pat fellow.

I have tried very hard to care, but it's just not happening. Best I can manage is a mild apathetic disinterest.

I can't get any more worked up about a mosque than I can a church, synagogue, or stupa no matter what it might be in proximity to.

I'm much more concerned with how little attention the question "Why do people do crap like that?" (about flying planes into buildings, blowing up underground trains, buses, etc.) has gotten. Seems like asking that question gets a chorus of "you're an appeaser!" (and some looks of deep confusion when you tell them to read Sun Tzu).

So. Meh.

Pat's rants are often good but I don't particularly like that one, rather too much bile at the people rather than the meme of Islam itself.

I hope it doesn't get built as it will cause considerable tension I would think.

The first video is right up my alley. Where the fuck was the outrage the more subtle things? Where the fuck is the outrage that two countries have been ravaged by war because we reacted so swiftly on one (and then largely ignored it) and then built up to the other and focused on the wrong one (where we probably have sowed the seeds for another more horrific attack).

Where was the outrage. Damn this guy, who took the words out of my mind and onto a video. Reminds me of that scene from Gladiator. ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!

Utterly tasteless, insulting and provocative.

Yes. If for no other reason: irony. It would be nice to make that gesture to Muslims. Show them that the depraved attacks on 9/11 did not make them our enemies. We still care for them in our society. But the Muslim community would have to pay for it, if they do that, we should let them.  I would like to see a place of God (even though I don't consider God to be real) built there, just not at tax-payer's expense.

9/11 pissed off Americans, but it destroyed the Muslim-American community, because all the Americans were pissed off at them.  This anti-Muslim attitude swept through the minds of the ignorant like wildfire.  Any show of solidarity, to show good Muslims that we care about the pain 9/11 caused them (all of us), would bring us closer together.  I would love to see a mosque built on ground zero.

BTW, whatever happened to the REBUILD THE WORLD TRADE CENTER plan?  Weren't we committed to that after the attack?  What the fuck happened, did we give up?

I said "no". But I would say "no" for any location.

We need less religious buildings, and more schools. I'm not saying people shouldn't be free to make religious buildings if they want to; however, I am saying that I oppose making religious buildings of any kind. Send kids to a place where they can learn the truth, not sectarian, bigoted nonsense.

Quote from: "KebertX"Yes. If for no other reason: irony. It would be nice to make that gesture to Muslims. Show them that the depraved attacks on 9/11 did not make them our enemies. We still care for them in our society. But the Muslim community would have to pay for it, if they do that, we should let them.  I would like to see a place of God (even though I don't consider God to be real) built there, just not at tax-payer's expense.

9/11 pissed off Americans, but it destroyed the Muslim-American community, because all the Americans were pissed off at them.  This anti-Muslim attitude swept through the minds of the ignorant like wildfire.  Any show of solidarity, to show good Muslims that we care about the pain 9/11 caused them (all of us), would bring us closer together.  I would love to see a mosque built on ground zero.

BTW, whatever happened to the REBUILD THE WORLD TRADE CENTER plan?  Weren't we committed to that after the attack?  What the fuck happened, did we give up?

The irony would be lost on the fundies.

I don't care so long as the government doesn't fund it in any way, shape, or form.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"I don't care so long as the government doesn't fund it in any way, shape, or form.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel too.

It's a stupid idea, as stupid as anything I've ever heard. That's some pretty expensive real estate and what a ridiculous waste it would be to build a religious building, any religious building, in that area.

The point should be to bring commerce back, to construct buildings where people can go to get jobs and make money, office buildings and shops and restaurants and places for people to live, to rejuvenate that part of Manhattan, to really make it live again. And I also think that a state-of-the-art hospital dedicated to the memory of all who lost their lives on 9/11 should be first on the list of things that need to be built there.

But, come on. A mosque?

Quote from: "i_am_i"But, come on. A mosque?

That's exactly what i think.

Built a cafe, a disco house, a casino or anything but not mosque, please! It's stupid!

If they own the land, and it's zoned for religious use, our opinions are irrelevant.

Quote from: "i_am_i"It's a stupid idea, as stupid as anything I've ever heard. That's some pretty expensive real estate and what a ridiculous waste it would be to build a religious building, any religious building, in that area.

The point should be to bring commerce back, to construct buildings where people can go to get jobs and make money, office buildings and shops and restaurants and places for people to live, to rejuvenate that part of Manhattan, to really make it live again. And I also think that a state-of-the-art hospital dedicated to the memory of all who lost their lives on 9/11 should be first on the list of things that need to be built there.

But, come on. A mosque?

It's not being built AT Ground Zero, just a block away.  It's not a big deal.  At all.

While in general I don't agree with the building of any new religious buildings, this is one of the few that might have actual real world value when built. It's a gesture of forgiveness and acceptance, especially of the moderate muslims likely to go there. Paint me yellow and feather me if this makes me an appeasing coward, but this sounds like one of the most sensible things I've seen this country do over 9/11.

It's far better than some of the more expected responses, like naming the area something of a 'holy land' and making it off limits to Islamic ventures.

Ok, there seems to be conflicting info about this all over the web. Initially i was led to believe the mosque was going to be built 'on ground zero', ie, directly next to the new Freedom tower.. Other sources then cite it is a couple of blocks away.

Does anyone have a map of where it will actually be? There's already mosques in New York which i obviously have no issue with. My feelings on this topic are entirely dependant on the actual position of the mosque.

If i've accidentally bought into atheist quote-mined propaganda, then i feel very foolish.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cordobainitiative.org%2Fch_map.jpg&hash=2cf547e2aade558bcbfc5d8ffe902bbf06184d3f)
(Map linked from Cordoba Initiative site (http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/cordoba-house-new-york-city).)

The atheist interwebz may have picked up on it, but I'm inclined to put the source of the "outrage" at such founts of wisdom as Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

Ok, here i stand, thoroughly ashamed.. I should have read more about it before creating this thread.

I hereby impose upon myself my first ever warning for being a knee-jerk jerk

Thanks for the map Recusant.

Quote from: "karadan"Ok, here i stand, thoroughly ashamed.. I should have read more about it before creating this thread.

I hereby impose upon myself my first ever warning for being a knee-jerk jerk

Thanks for the map Recusant.

Sometimes discussing things is how one reaches a conclusion or how one betters their premises to ensure the conclusion or adjust the conclusion.

Your first post was asking for everyone's opinion and didn't seem that knee jerk.

I didn't care to begin with, now that I know that it's going to be a few blocks away, I don't see how anyone could be too upset about it.

Supposing they had a display criticising the destruction of the WTC and condemning terrorist acts in the name of Islam. Would one feel less pissed off by it?

To be honest, if they put up their mosque directly across the street, so long as they own the land, and followed the pertinent laws and zoning regulations, they've every right to do so.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"To be honest, if they put up their mosque directly across the street, so long as they own the land, and followed the pertinent laws and zoning regulations, they've every right to do so.

Agreed. But having a 'right' to do something may not mean it's the 'right' thing to do. In this case I would have thought that the value of the land they are building on would be pretty high. They could sell the land and build more mosque square feet in places where Muslims would actually use it? I can't think that there would be a huge demand for a Mosque in down town New York on a Friday? I may be wrong but it does seem a poor use of resources.

I don't see the need for building a mosque (or a church for that matter) anywhere at all. Think of all the better things those money could be used for.

Quote from: "Cecilie"I don't see the need for building a mosque (or a church for that matter) anywhere at all. Think of all the better things those money could be used for.

You and I both see the same thing. I'd sell off most of the Vatican treasures over a 25 year period, leaving enough behind to keep it a good tourist attraction and spending the proceeds on science education around the world.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Cecilie"I don't see the need for building a mosque (or a church for that matter) anywhere at all. Think of all the better things those money could be used for.

You and I both see the same thing. I'd sell off most of the Vatican treasures over a 25 year period, leaving enough behind to keep it a good tourist attraction and spending the proceeds on science education around the world.

...And new roads in Norway of course.  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"To be honest, if they put up their mosque directly across the street, so long as they own the land, and followed the pertinent laws and zoning regulations, they've every right to do so.

Agreed. But having a 'right' to do something may not mean it's the 'right' thing to do. In this case I would have thought that the value of the land they are building on would be pretty high. They could sell the land and build more mosque square feet in places where Muslims would actually use it? I can't think that there would be a huge demand for a Mosque in down town New York on a Friday? I may be wrong but it does seem a poor use of resources.

While I agree with virtually all of this post, the demand for a mosque in Manhattan may well be present.  After all, how many hundreds of thousands of people work in Manhattan?  And how many are Muslim?

Your efficiency argument is to-the-point, however.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"To be honest, if they put up their mosque directly across the street, so long as they own the land, and followed the pertinent laws and zoning regulations, they've every right to do so.

Agreed. But having a 'right' to do something may not mean it's the 'right' thing to do. In this case I would have thought that the value of the land they are building on would be pretty high. They could sell the land and build more mosque square feet in places where Muslims would actually use it? I can't think that there would be a huge demand for a Mosque in down town New York on a Friday? I may be wrong but it does seem a poor use of resources.

While I agree with virtually all of this post, the demand for a mosque in Manhattan may well be present.  After all, how many hundreds of thousands of people work in Manhattan?  And how many are Muslim?

Your efficiency argument is to-the-point, however.

As you say there may be a suitable population to warrant a mosque.