Title: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Gawen on June 04, 2010, 11:10:59 PM
Post by: Gawen on June 04, 2010, 11:10:59 PM
Hiya bombt,
You have picked another area where one simply cannot address the situation in a couple paragraphs. Bear with me and I'll try to keep it short....at least as short as 10 pages in Word...*just kidding*
In the Pentateuch, one comes across a load of laws for Jews; most in Leviticus. These (613 of them) are the laws (beginning with the Ten Commandments) that God gave to the Israelites through Moses; and includes many rules of religious observance given in the first five books of the Old Testament (in Judaism these books are called the Torah). Judaism drew no distinction in its laws between religious and non-religious life. Hence, the laws are not only religious practices and beliefs, but numerous aspects of day-to-day life. However, modern Christians feel free to ignore these laws by and large; although they often quote them when useful (a man shall not lie with a man etc).
I wondered what the rationale behind this was, how some laws are still valid and some are not. Examples are:
1) The mixed clothing law
2) The pork & shellfish law
3) The whole mildew/leprosy/Tzaraath thing.
4) The ten commandments
So how does all this square up with what Jesus says in
Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.â€
To me it all seems a little convenient. But first, we have to consider the word "fulfill" and it's context, as you so proudly exclaim in another thread.
Matthew 5:17-20: Think not that I am come to destroy the law...
Now you may argue that Jesus does say he came to fulfill but what does that mean? Well if he meant to negate the law than he is an idiot (or his author is an idiot) because he contradicts himself flatly in the next verse and in Revelation. Jesus here makes it clear you have to obey every iota of the commandments. Every single commandment is binding and valid.
Matthew 5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The word “fulfilled†here is clearly a bad translation to put it mildly. The context of the passage requires that the word actually be “uphold†or “continue†or “enforceâ€. The rest of the passage has Jesus stating that his law lasts forever and that his law is the key to salvation. If you insist on the word “fulfill†you are reducing Jesus to an incoherent blathering idiot who says one thing at the beginning of the passage:
Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy…
And then proceeds to contradict himself with his next three words:
…but to fulfill…
And then backpedals from that momentary lapse in reason and to continue his original train of thought for the balance of the passage stating in no uncertain terms that God’s Law saves and that no one may seek to change it or teach others to do so:
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Do you have any idea how nonsensical the idea of fulfilling a law is? There is no scriptural support for the assertion that Jesus fulfilled God’s Law. Has all been fulfilled? Was it all fulfilled with Jesus’ death? No. How do we know all has not been fulfilled? Easy. We take a look at the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation states quite clearly that all will be finished and accomplished at some mysterious indeterminate point in the future.
For example,
Revelation 17:17: (KJV) shows that all - the word of God - has not been fulfilled:
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Have heaven and earth passed away? No. Otherwise, the law is to be obeyed until they are passed away. If everything were accomplished already, the following verse is meaningless:
Rev 10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished (accomplished), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Obviously, Jesus’ death accomplished nothing and the Law is still binding just as it was the day God delivered it to Moses.
Moving along to the next verse in Revelation, we see that Jesus reinforces the applicability of God’s Law stating that anyone who breaks one of even the lesser commandments or teaches people not to obey the Law shall suffer some form of damnation:
Rev 5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
There is no indication anywhere that “all†has been fulfilled. The Jewish messiah has not yet come. The Christian God’s new covenant (Jer. 31-36) has yet to be realized. (more on this later).
Your turn...
*edited to fix a typo*
You have picked another area where one simply cannot address the situation in a couple paragraphs. Bear with me and I'll try to keep it short....at least as short as 10 pages in Word...*just kidding*
In the Pentateuch, one comes across a load of laws for Jews; most in Leviticus. These (613 of them) are the laws (beginning with the Ten Commandments) that God gave to the Israelites through Moses; and includes many rules of religious observance given in the first five books of the Old Testament (in Judaism these books are called the Torah). Judaism drew no distinction in its laws between religious and non-religious life. Hence, the laws are not only religious practices and beliefs, but numerous aspects of day-to-day life. However, modern Christians feel free to ignore these laws by and large; although they often quote them when useful (a man shall not lie with a man etc).
I wondered what the rationale behind this was, how some laws are still valid and some are not. Examples are:
1) The mixed clothing law
2) The pork & shellfish law
3) The whole mildew/leprosy/Tzaraath thing.
4) The ten commandments
So how does all this square up with what Jesus says in
Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.â€
To me it all seems a little convenient. But first, we have to consider the word "fulfill" and it's context, as you so proudly exclaim in another thread.
Matthew 5:17-20: Think not that I am come to destroy the law...
Now you may argue that Jesus does say he came to fulfill but what does that mean? Well if he meant to negate the law than he is an idiot (or his author is an idiot) because he contradicts himself flatly in the next verse and in Revelation. Jesus here makes it clear you have to obey every iota of the commandments. Every single commandment is binding and valid.
Matthew 5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The word “fulfilled†here is clearly a bad translation to put it mildly. The context of the passage requires that the word actually be “uphold†or “continue†or “enforceâ€. The rest of the passage has Jesus stating that his law lasts forever and that his law is the key to salvation. If you insist on the word “fulfill†you are reducing Jesus to an incoherent blathering idiot who says one thing at the beginning of the passage:
Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy…
And then proceeds to contradict himself with his next three words:
…but to fulfill…
And then backpedals from that momentary lapse in reason and to continue his original train of thought for the balance of the passage stating in no uncertain terms that God’s Law saves and that no one may seek to change it or teach others to do so:
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Do you have any idea how nonsensical the idea of fulfilling a law is? There is no scriptural support for the assertion that Jesus fulfilled God’s Law. Has all been fulfilled? Was it all fulfilled with Jesus’ death? No. How do we know all has not been fulfilled? Easy. We take a look at the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation states quite clearly that all will be finished and accomplished at some mysterious indeterminate point in the future.
For example,
Revelation 17:17: (KJV) shows that all - the word of God - has not been fulfilled:
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Have heaven and earth passed away? No. Otherwise, the law is to be obeyed until they are passed away. If everything were accomplished already, the following verse is meaningless:
Rev 10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished (accomplished), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Obviously, Jesus’ death accomplished nothing and the Law is still binding just as it was the day God delivered it to Moses.
Moving along to the next verse in Revelation, we see that Jesus reinforces the applicability of God’s Law stating that anyone who breaks one of even the lesser commandments or teaches people not to obey the Law shall suffer some form of damnation:
Rev 5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
There is no indication anywhere that “all†has been fulfilled. The Jewish messiah has not yet come. The Christian God’s new covenant (Jer. 31-36) has yet to be realized. (more on this later).
Your turn...
*edited to fix a typo*
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Tank on June 04, 2010, 11:33:32 PM
Post by: Tank on June 04, 2010, 11:33:32 PM
Awaiting response.
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Asmodean on June 05, 2010, 12:34:29 AM
Post by: Asmodean on June 05, 2010, 12:34:29 AM
Quote from: "Tank"Awaiting response.Awaiting response while liking Gawen for not being lazy and actually writing them long posts
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: KDbeads on June 05, 2010, 12:40:08 AM
Post by: KDbeads on June 05, 2010, 12:40:08 AM
I like it I like it.......
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Gawen on June 05, 2010, 03:43:16 AM
Post by: Gawen on June 05, 2010, 03:43:16 AM
Quote from: "Asmodean"You gotta be sh*tin me. You LIKE that???Quote from: "Tank"Awaiting response.Awaiting response while liking Gawen for not being lazy and actually writing them long posts
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Gawen on June 05, 2010, 03:44:12 AM
Post by: Gawen on June 05, 2010, 03:44:12 AM
Quote from: "KDbeads":hail:You too?
I like it I like it.......
Ah well....if he comes back....well.....you'll see...*wicked evil grin*
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: KDbeads on June 05, 2010, 03:50:52 AM
Post by: KDbeads on June 05, 2010, 03:50:52 AM
Quote from: "Gawen"Quote from: "KDbeads":hail:You too?
I like it I like it.......
Ah well....if he comes back....well.....you'll see...*wicked evil grin*
I was actually trying to make a similar list but I'm slow with this debate and rebuttal stuff. Takes me longer to find something in writing that's floating around in my brain. Entering the word pentecostal helps break down what semblance of civility I hold when it comes to what was done in the name of religion to me as a child and keeps me from focusing enough for a decent rebuttal that makes sense.
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Gawen on June 05, 2010, 12:55:15 PM
Post by: Gawen on June 05, 2010, 12:55:15 PM
Quote from: "KDbeads"That's why I've written down everything. There's simply no way I can remember all this stuff and dredge it up when needed. Feel free to copy/paste and use it when you need to. I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, as long as Christians continue to post/write the stuff they post/write, it's all in the public domain....including my stuff.Quote from: "Gawen"Quote from: "KDbeads":hail:You too?
I like it I like it.......
Ah well....if he comes back....well.....you'll see...*wicked evil grin*
I was actually trying to make a similar list but I'm slow with this debate and rebuttal stuff. Takes me longer to find something in writing that's floating around in my brain. Entering the word pentecostal helps break down what semblance of civility I hold when it comes to what was done in the name of religion to me as a child and keeps me from focusing enough for a decent rebuttal that makes sense.
The problem is getting them to remove their god-goggles long enough to read it....such as the case with bombt...let alone reply to it.
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Jack's Disciple on June 06, 2010, 11:58:35 PM
Post by: Jack's Disciple on June 06, 2010, 11:58:35 PM
Good questions, Gawen. As you directed the OP to Bombt, I'll let him respond (if he so chooses) and add any comments I feel are necessary when appropriate.
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Gawen on June 07, 2010, 12:28:07 PM
Post by: Gawen on June 07, 2010, 12:28:07 PM
Quote from: "Jack's Disciple"Good questions, Gawen. As you directed the OP to Bombt, I'll let him respond (if he so chooses) and add any comments I feel are necessary when appropriate.It's a public forum. Feel free to respond.
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: Whitney on June 07, 2010, 01:23:26 PM
Post by: Whitney on June 07, 2010, 01:23:26 PM
I have suggested to bombt that responding to this thread would be a good gesture...so maybe he will soon :shrug:
Title: Re: bombt, Paul and the Law
Post by: pinkocommie on June 07, 2010, 09:04:49 PM
Post by: pinkocommie on June 07, 2010, 09:04:49 PM
Quote from: "Gawen"Quote from: "Jack's Disciple"Good questions, Gawen. As you directed the OP to Bombt, I'll let him respond (if he so chooses) and add any comments I feel are necessary when appropriate.It's a public forum. Feel free to respond.
I second this, JD, I would love to hear your perspective on this.
