Happy Atheist Forum

how do you all cope with hard determinism?  quite often lately i've been rather depressed about it all.

Well, since I have no idea what determinism is it's not hanging me up at all.

Why have you been depressed about it?

It annoys me slightly, however, there are some fascinating hypotheses revolving around it. Like for instance the one where the universe has an infinite number of "twins", in which the events are from remarkably similar to radically different from our own

Quote from: "jrosebud"how do you all cope with hard determinism?  quite often lately i've been rather depressed about it all.

I knew you were going to ask this.  lol  :D

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.willamette.edu%2Fpeople%2Fklutz%2Fjournal%2Farchives%2Fspanish_inquisition.jpg&hash=adca1a56586ce4d8cd408ae761e447c416608124)

(proof there is no hard determinism)

I think free will is an illusion, but it's not like I can do anything about it.  :cool:

However, I am interested to see what arguments people have for and against.



 

Quote from: "jrosebud"how do you all cope with hard determinism?  quite often lately i've been rather depressed about it all.

It is really depressing. How dare the universe plan my life for me and not even tell me about it?!  :P )

There's no need for Determinism to change how you behave or the choices you make, really. It's merely the philosophical recognition that nature drives your will, thus determines the choices you will make. But you are an entity of nature.

I suppose I cope, for lack of a better word, by the concept of Eternal Return:

Quote from: "Nietzsche"To endure the idea of the recurrence one needs: freedom from morality; new means against the fact of pain ( pain conceived as a tool, as the father of pleasure...); the enjoyment of all kinds of uncertainty, experimentalism, as a counterweight to this extreme fatalism; abolition of the concept of necessity; abolition of the "will"; abolition of "knowledge-in-itself."

QuoteNever yield to remorse, but at once tell yourself: remorse would simply mean adding to the first act of stupidity a second.

QuoteWhat, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?

Quote from: "SnowOwl"I cope by not believing in it. It doesn't make sense to me. By definition the future hasn't happened yet. And if it hasn't happened yet, then it can't be predetermined.

There is a tremendous difference between Determinism and PreDeterminism.

I have no thoughts on it. It's a philosophical stance that I don't think about. Much like the questions, "Why are we here?" and "What was there before the big bang?" and "If the Universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?"
There are too many types of 'determinism's' for me to worry about, eg; if my free will is an illusion or not or my life was predetermined from the beginning of time, etc. Personally, I think it's bunk. But if it's not, I have many choices, albeit illusions, to make it the best life I have....and so far, I'm enjoying most of it.

Hmmm... seems like this is a mostly philosophical discussion - what about physics?

Just finished reading "Flash Forward" (since the series got canceled)

They discuss determinism in terms of physics:
"Spatio-temporal Determinism or Eternalism  is the view of special relativity. The "block universe" of Hermann Minkowski and Albert Einstein assumes that time is simply a fourth dimension that already exixts, just like the spatial dimensions. The one possible future is already out there up ahead of where we are now, just like the city blocks to our left and right, according to J. J. C. Smart. He calls himself "somewhat of a fatalist" and describes his view that all times are present as "tenseless.""

CERN has an excerpt from the book explaining it:
http://flashforward.web.cern.ch/flashforward/excerpt2/ (http://flashforward.web.cern.ch/flashforward/excerpt2/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism)

Philosophical navel gazing, of interest only to those who get paid as philosophers.

Quote from: "Sophus"There is a tremendous difference between Determinism and PreDeterminism. :blink: Lemme try and understand this again...

Quote from: "Wikipedia"Determinism is the philosophical view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by the environment. It is, in essence, the view that one's life is predetermined before one is even born. Determinism proposes there is a predetermined unbroken chain of prior occurrences back to the origin of the universe.

Determinists believe the universe is fully governed by causal laws resulting in only one possible state at any point in time. With numerous historical debates, many varieties and philosophical positions on the subject of determinism exist, most prominently the free will debates involving compatibilism and incompatibilism.

Determinism should not be confused with determination of human actions by reasons, motives, and desires, or with predestination, which specifically factors the existence of God into its tenets.

"...every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by the environment." So our actions, etc., are always responses to an occurrence. Each cause can only have one effect/one possible result, and the past, present and future are a chain of causes/effects, and there is only one chain. Determinism is based on the belief that there's only one outcome (and no other choices,) not pre-made choices.

Am I closer, or further off the mark?

Quote from: "Gawen"I have no thoughts on it. It's a philosophical stance that I don't think about. Much like the questions, "Why are we here?" and "What was there before the big bang?" and "If the Universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?"
There are too many types of 'determinism's' for me to worry about, eg; if my free will is an illusion or not or my life was predetermined from the beginning of time, etc. Personally, I think it's bunk. But if it's not, I have many choices, albeit illusions, to make it the best life I have....and so far, I'm enjoying most of it.

Well said. If it's true then there is nothing we can do about it, if it's wrong it makes no difference, we couldn't tell the difference between a deterministic and non-deterministic world anyway. Hence it's philosophical navel gazing and of no practical value on a day-to-day basis.

Quote from: "Tank"Well said.

Thanks

QuoteIf it's true then there is nothing we can do about it, if it's wrong it makes no difference, we couldn't tell the difference between a deterministic and non-deterministic world anyway. Hence it's philosophical navel gazing and of no practical value on a day-to-day basis.

That is precisely what I think about it...

I've been doing a lot of thinking this week on the subject (tough week!) and have come to several conclusions:

~A non-determined universe doesn't make much sense to me.  Every event is the result of multiple causes; wanting a world without determinism is wishing for uncaused events.  And determined doesn't mean fatalistic; what we do matters.  It helps to shape the rest of existence.  Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).  

~I have been acquainted with the idea of determinism for a good long while.  It used to give me comfort, so it hurts to have it turn and shown its teeth.  If people are combination of their genetics and experiences, then the idea of a god who punishes individuals eternally (for taking paths that all originate from its first cause) is absurd and disgusting.  More than philsophical navel-gazing (love the term, by the way), figuring out determinism has helped me to buck superstition and become more sympathetic toward others.  I get that people are doing the best they can with what they have.

~The problem:  I think that I'm too sympathetic and empathetic for my own good.  I become debilitated by the suffering of others.  Lately, my sensitivity to it has been ramped up because of the issues with my sick cat and the recognition that quite often good intentions lead to mistakes that do more harm than good (take the entire study of nutrition and the american diet in the last 100 years as an example).  When life's going well, it's easier to ignore the suffering of the general populace; but when I want to affect positive change and find that so much of my good intentions fail, the really horrible tragedies of the world become magnified and too much to handle.  Someone talk me down from the ledge?

Quote from: "jrosebud"Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "jrosebud"Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

That's how determinism works - not-so-simple cause and effect.  We are the combination of genes plus environment.

The someone/something is everything that has acted on me from the beginning of my time.

Quote from: "jrosebud"

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "jrosebud"Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

That's how determinism works - not-so-simple cause and effect.  We are the combination of genes plus environment.

The someone/something is everything that has acted on me from the beginning of my time.

I see this argument as pretty useless because no matter what the answer (even though it's currently unknowable), the outcome will be the same: I'll live my life making decisions and doing things as if I'm making decisions and doing things based on my choices and not some determined cause and effect.

If everything is determined, then I have no choice but to continue the way that I'm determined to go (making decisions as if my choices aren't determined) because it's already been determined that I will do so.

If only a few things are determined, then I will continue making decisions as if my choices aren't determined because not everything is determined.

If nothing is determined, then I will continue making decisions as if my choices aren't determined because nothing is determined.

So no matter what the reality is, I will act the same and it has no effect on my life whatsoever.

You only have to believe in determinism for it to bother you.  As others have already said that's the thing-whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't change a thing.  No point in stressing over something you can't change either way.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"You only have to believe in determinism for it to bother you.  As others have already said that's the thing-whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't change a thing.  No point in stressing over something you can't change either way.

How have you found a way not to believe it?  (I'm getting to a point where considering it as a truth might not bother me quite so much, but I'm just curious as to how others don't see it as the logical conclusion.)

I just don't believe in it?  I'm an existentialist-free will is at the root of what I believe.  Even if our decisions are caused, they're still our decisions.  If I'm reading you right, it seems like you believe in biological determinism?  There are many different kinds of determinism, not all of which are entirely incompatible with the notion of free will.  Hunger is a biological urge.  I eat because I am caused to by my body's sense of hunger.  However, I still have a choice in what I consume to satisfy that urge.  That's just one very simple example, but it's one of the reasons why it's never bothered me.  Yes, we may be caused to do certain things, but ultimately the choice is ours in the end in terms of how we respond to those urges.

In existentialist philosophy, those things we cannot change are referred to as facticity.  I can't change that I am a white female with certain genetic predispositions.  I can only change how I chose to live with these unchangeable elements of my life-that's facticity.

Quote from: "jrosebud"

Quote from: "i_am_i"

Quote from: "jrosebud"Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

That's how determinism works - not-so-simple cause and effect.  We are the combination of genes plus environment.

The someone/something is everything that has acted on me from the beginning of my time.

That seems like an extremely passive way to approach life. It sounds to me that you're rather stuck. Even if you do something it doesn't matter because it was intended all along for you to do it. So why do anything at all? No, that doesn't work either, because it was intended all along for you to to do nothing.

Yep. You're stuck.

Look, how do you manage to not believe in God while at the same time believing in this determinism hoo-haw to the point that it's got you do depressed?

I find it ironic that your signiture is:

"Every post you can hitch your faith on
Is a pie in the sky,
Chock full of lies,
A tool we devise
To make sinking stones fly."

Ever thought about applying that sentiment to determinism?

Of course everything is caused or determined, however, the causes are so complex, subtle, hidden, and interwoven that there's no way we can identify or predict them.  As such, we have to behave as if we had free will.  Help people whenever you can, avoid hurting anyone, and have fun while you're living your life.  Do things that will shape the meaning of your life in a way that you can be happy with.  If you screw up, recognize it, correct it if you can; if you can't, shrug your shoulders and try to avoid doing that again.

So don't worry about determinism.  Life is an adventure with all sorts of unexpected turns.  Be surprised and enjoy it.

Occam

Quote from: "i_am_i"That seems like an extremely passive way to approach life. It sounds to me that you're rather stuck. Even if you do something it doesn't matter because it was intended all along for you to do it. So why do anything at all? No, that doesn't work either, because it was intended all along for you to to do nothing.

Yep. You're stuck.

Look, how do you manage to not believe in God while at the same time believing in this determinism hoo-haw to the point that it's got you do depressed?

This would be fatalism, though.  I don't ascribe to that, as what we do matters; it shapes the rest of our lives (and the lives of those conteporary with and who follow us).  The suffering of others (and my inability to much about it, despite my good intentions) is what I think has really got me down.

Scientific determinism does make the most sense to me, even if there is room for uncaused events in the universe (though I'm confused as to how that would work).  The search for "truth" used to be a big part of my identity.  It's becoming clearer to me that I'm tending toward agnosticism more and more, as I can't seem to quit chipping away at whatever foundations I build for myself.  I'm finding it more difficult to gather meanings (which makes it hard construct an identity and to interact socially without being reduced to a sobbing mess).  I envy those who can accept a worldview without questioning every bit of it on a regular basis.  Lately, shuffling off this mortal coil seems like a valid option, if not just to break off my thoughts.

I'm unemployed; I quit my crap job to spend the summer home with my 8-year-old daughter - so my depression is even more frustrating, as we're supposed to be living up our time together.  And we're finally financially at the point where I can go back to college, which I've been waiting to do for seven years.  Now that I'm here, I'm not sure what I could study that would be meaningful to me anymore (which is darkly funny, as previously I would have wanted to major in just about everything).  Now I'm afraid to delve too deeply into anything, for fear of failure, misguided "success," and unhenging myself again.

Thanks for letting me unload.  It helps just typing this all out.  Most of my people are not in a place to understand what I'm going through, as their worldviews are pretty deeply entrenched (and the adjustments that are made are done so subtly that they don't often notice).

Would a previous posting of an avatar have increased the possibility of someone posting "don't jump"?

Quote from: "jrosebud"Would a previous posting of an avatar have increased the possibility of someone posting "don't jump"?

That little ginger kitty IS adorable...

Quote from: "jrosebud"I'm unemployed; I quit my crap job to spend the summer home with my 8-year-old daughter - so my depression is even more frustrating, as we're supposed to be living up our time together.  And we're finally financially at the point where I can go back to college, which I've been waiting to do for seven years.  Now that I'm here, I'm not sure what I could study that would be meaningful to me anymore (which is darkly funny, as previously I would have wanted to major in just about everything).  Now I'm afraid to delve too deeply into anything, for fear of failure, misguided "success," and unhenging myself again.

I don't mean to come across as being harsh but with all this going on you're worried about determinism?!

You say you're financially secure enough for you to be able to go back to college. You can go back to college, that's great! My wife would love to be able to go back to college to get her master's degree but we don't have the money, and it breaks my heart because she very much wants that, but that's just the way it is. And now, with all you say you've got going for you, you're putting up imaginary obstacles for yourself. Forgive me for not feeling your pain but I swear I just don't get it.

Fuck all that fear. Be who you know yourself to be, and if you don't who you are then find out and find out quick, get your ass in college, enjoy your good fortune and be a happy, loving and strong father for your daughter.

You know, you're really starting to piss me off.

Quote from: "i_am_i "You know, you're really starting to piss me off.

Seriously?  I'm in a pretty deep depression and all you've got is that I'm pissing you off?  

That's the thing - I don't know who I am or what I want or how to feel much of anything that isn't nausea or panic these days.  Hasn't anyone here been through an existential crisis who knows how I feel who could offer a "hang in there" or something?

Not that it's relevant, but I'm a mother.

... The best advise I can give is to seek help.  Depression is nothing to mess with, and the answers probably won't be found on a forum or by riddling about determinism.

Please.  See your doctor.  Talk about real options to aid in getting better.

I wish you the best,
JoeActor

Quote from: "SnowOwl"Now currently-determined, I accept. Right now, I'm about to eat the last piece of cake, which means that I can't eat any more of that cake in the future. Three hours ago, that wasn't the case. (I wanted ice cream then.  :) ... at least for tomorrow.

Quote from: "joeactor"... The best advise I can give is to seek help.  Depression is nothing to mess with, and the answers probably won't be found on a forum or by riddling about determinism.

Please.  See your doctor.  Talk about real options to aid in getting better.

I wish you the best,
JoeActor

He's spot on there, depression is not an issue to mess with. Get help.

Tank

Quote from: "jrosebud"Seriously?  I'm in a pretty deep depression and all you've got is that I'm pissing you off?  

That's the thing - I don't know who I am or what I want or how to feel much of anything that isn't nausea or panic these days.  Hasn't anyone here been through an existential crisis who knows how I feel who could offer a "hang in there" or something?

Not that it's relevant, but I'm a mother.

I've absolutely been in your position Still am, to some extent - the severity has lessened, however, so I can absolutely offer a "hang in there."  I also desperately want to go back to school, but have no means by which to do so.  Still, I've found ways to incorporate some of the interests into my life for which I would go back to school, if I were able to do so, and that has helped in some small degree.  

I battle depression every day, as does my wife.  Medication has helped enormously, as has finding a really good therapist (which can be tough, let me tell you).  But the others who have said so are right - it's no joke.  Don't mess around with it - seek help.  If it's that bad, you need to see a doctor you trust and talk about options.

Quote from: "Davin"So no matter what the reality is, I will act the same and [determinism] has no effect on my life whatsoever.

I disagree with this statement.

The acceptance/rejection of determinism may have no effect on your life, but could have drastic implications for others. Psychologists refer to individuals who have adopted a deterministic/fatalist perspective as having an "external locus of control"; that is, believing that their volition has no impact on the physical world. Extreme cases of this condition (if you will) can lead to maladaptive behaviors and depression. My guess is that most people give no credence to determinism and so implicitly reject its stance that we have no free will. However, some people may give critical thought to this philosophical issue and reach the conclusion that determinism is the only "correct" conclusion one can reach, which, as I've said, can have extreme consequences for their mental health. So, while it is true that the "existence" of determinism has no impact on our daily physical lives (e.g., we will still perceive our choices as resulting from purposeful acts of our will), its "perceived existence" can have a dramatic impact on our mental lives (though not always in a negative way). An analogy could be made about religion: Whether or not we conclude that God exists has no real impact on our physical lives-the wind will continue to blow, the rain will still fall, and taxes will unfortunately keep being collected. But, our perception of the existence of God (just like our perception of determinism) can have very real consequences for our mental lives.

And, just for clarification, when I use the word "determinism" I'm referring to hard determinism.

Quote from: "keithwdowd"

Quote from: "Davin"So no matter what the reality is, I will act the same and [determinism] has no effect on my life whatsoever.

I disagree with this statement.

The acceptance/rejection of determinism may have no effect on your life, but could have drastic implications for others. Psychologists refer to individuals who have adopted a deterministic/fatalist perspective as having an "external locus of control"; that is, believing that their volition has no impact on the physical world. Extreme cases of this condition (if you will) can lead to maladaptive behaviors and depression. My guess is that most people give no credence to determinism and so implicitly reject its stance that we have no free will. However, some people may give critical thought to this philosophical issue and reach the conclusion that determinism is the only "correct" conclusion one can reach, which, as I've said, can have extreme consequences for their mental health. So, while it is true that the "existence" of determinism has no impact on our daily physical lives (e.g., we will still perceive our choices as resulting from purposeful acts of our will), its "perceived existence" can have a dramatic impact on our mental lives (though not always in a negative way). An analogy could be made about religion: Whether or not we conclude that God exists has no real impact on our physical lives-the wind will continue to blow, the rain will still fall, and taxes will unfortunately keep being collected. But, our perception of the existence of God (just like our perception of determinism) can have very real consequences for our mental lives.

And, just for clarification, when I use the word "determinism" I'm referring to hard determinism.

Cogent and well argued - how do you answer "hard determinism" from a philosophical perspective?  Is it a perspective to which you give credence, or do you reject it outright - from a philosophical standpoint, only - irrespective of its impact on the psychology of individuals?  I ask because regardless of whether holding that perspective will negatively influence our mental health, it may, nevertheless, be true.

Quote from: "The Black Jester"Cogent and well argued - how do you answer "hard determinism" from a philosophical perspective?  Is it a perspective to which you give credence, or do you reject it outright - from a philosophical standpoint, only - irrespective of its impact on the psychology of individuals?  I ask because regardless of whether holding that perspective will negatively influence our mental health, it may, nevertheless, be true.

Personally I would describe myself as an adherent to the Aristotelian notion of "active determinism"; that is, an acceptance that our actions are largely governed (determined, if you will) by biology and environment, but our ability as a species to actively reflect (or, metacognate) on our actions and behaviors (for better or worse) provides us with some utility of freedom and directed choice. Through reflection we can determine the external forces directing our behavior and work to counterbalance them. For me, life is like being a drifter in rapidly moving water without actually being aware that you are being pushed by the current. Only when you reflect and realize that your movement is directed by the external force of the stream can you act to push against the current to redirect your heading. Really, this is just another way of me saying that I am not convinced that we live in a hard deterministic world. Certainly there are events that interact to determine our behaviors (e.g., developed preferences, biological tendencies, learned SR chains, etc) but these forces can be overcome to a degree given our ability to investigate and critically evaluate our behavior, which allows for some semblance of free will and directed choice. But, as you said, everything-all actions, behavior, and choice-may be purely determined a priori, yet, even if this is true, the actual truth about determinism makes little difference for most people. It's the individual's perception of the truth that carries the weight in this case.

Quote from: "keithwdowd"Personally I would describe myself as an adherent to the Aristotelian notion of "active determinism"; that is, an acceptance that our actions are largely governed (determined, if you will) by biology and environment, but our ability as a species to actively reflect (or, metacognate) on our actions and behaviors (for better or worse) provides us with some utility of freedom and directed choice. Through reflection we can determine the external forces directing our behavior and work to counterbalance them. For me, life is like being a drifter in rapidly moving water without actually being aware that you are being pushed by the current. Only when you reflect and realize that your movement is directed by the external force of the stream can you act to push against the current to redirect your heading. Really, this is just another way of me saying that I am not convinced that we live in a hard deterministic world. Certainly there are events that interact to determine our behaviors (e.g., developed preferences, biological tendencies, learned SR chains, etc) but these forces can be overcome to a degree given our ability to investigate and critically evaluate our behavior, which allows for some semblance of free will and directed choice.

Your image is compelling, and I must admit this vantage point is certainly the most pleasing to me.  It is well articulated, and matches much of what I (currently) know about how the world operates, and yet allows for my humble attempts to forge my own destiny, within certain parameters.  While I must admit that my opinions are hopelessly amateur, and perhaps presently ill informed, I am not so sure if this perspective is actually true, in the end.  It presupposes that our ability to "metacognate," along with the details of said metacognition, is not itself determined in some fashion.  We could have a built-in mechanism for self-correcting behavior (behavior that deviates from certain goals of the organism, say) that, while conscious, nevertheless has defined responses for said deviations.

 Also, I am not quite clear on what, if any, difference there is between the concepts of an action (or thought, or whatever) being influenced by various factors, as opposed to the action being determined by those factors.  Can we coherently argue that some force or other influences our behavior without thereby meaning that it plays a part in determining our behavior?  

It could be that there are billions of determinants all acting upon us at any given time, but our inability to articulate or separate each and every one of them does not lessen the possibility that they act deterministically.  In other words, just because reality may be hopelessly complex beyond our ability to ever truly comprehend, and therefore beyond our ability to predict or fully explain any particular instance of behavior, it does not mean that that hypothetical instance is not determined.

Quote from: "keithwdowd"But, as you said, everything-all actions, behavior, and choice-may be purely determined a priori, yet, even if this is true, the actual truth about determinism makes little difference for most people. It's the individual's perception of the truth that carries the weight in this case.

This brings up another point, that perhaps belongs on another thread - but I will give it a brief shot here.  It's always struck me that, for exactly the reasons you state above - that the individual's perception of the truth has such broad ranging ramifications - there might be cases in which the truth (the "truth" being an accurate representation of reality) is actually harmful.  So that to survive, our species had to develop certain "functional delusions" in order to survive - anathema as that is to my way of thinking.  If determinism is true, and if its realization by a conscious being results inevitably in maladaptive behaviors, might not evolution have pre-disposed us to believe in something like free-will for our own survival, even if such is not an accurate representation of reality?

Quote from: "The Black Jester"Your image is compelling, and I must admit this vantage point is certainly the most pleasing to me.  It is well articulated, and matches much of what I (currently) know about how the world operates, and yet allows for my humble attempts to forge my own destiny, within certain parameters.  While I must admit that my opinions are hopelessly amateur, and perhaps presently ill informed, I am not so sure if this perspective is actually true, in the end.  It presupposes that our ability to "metacognate," along with the details of said metacognition, is not itself determined in some fashion.  We could have a built-in mechanism for self-correcting behavior (behavior that deviates from certain goals of the organism, say) that, while conscious, nevertheless has defined responses for said deviations.

 Also, I am not quite clear on what, if any, difference there is between the concepts of an action (or thought, or whatever) being influenced by various factors, as opposed to the action being determined by those factors.  Can we coherently argue that some force or other influences our behavior without thereby meaning that it plays a part in determining our behavior?  

It could be that there are billions of determinants all acting upon us at any given time, but our inability to articulate or separate each and every one of them does not lessen the possibility that they act deterministically.  In other words, just because reality may be hopelessly complex beyond our ability to ever truly comprehend, and therefore beyond our ability to predict or fully explain any particular instance of behavior, it does not mean that that hypothetical instance is not determined.

Quote from: "keithwdowd"But, as you said, everything-all actions, behavior, and choice-may be purely determined a priori, yet, even if this is true, the actual truth about determinism makes little difference for most people. It's the individual's perception of the truth that carries the weight in this case.

This brings up another point, that perhaps belongs on another thread - but I will give it a brief shot here.  It's always struck me that, for exactly the reasons you state above - that the individual's perception of the truth has such broad ranging ramifications - there might be cases in which the truth (the "truth" being an accurate representation of reality) is actually harmful.  So that to survive, our species had to develop certain "functional delusions" in order to survive - anathema as that is to my way of thinking.  If determinism is true, and if its realization by a conscious being results inevitably in maladaptive behaviors, might not evolution have pre-disposed us to believe in something like free-will for our own survival, even if such is not an accurate representation of reality?

Thank you for your kind words. I do enjoy exchanging and reciprocating ideas with others, and our conversation so far has been very interesting to me.

You may very well be correct. It is certainly possible that a self-correcting mechanism may be present within our subconscious that corrects for unadvantageous deviations from norms set by the organism. I’m rather skeptical of this viewpoint, however, because I would consider activities such as smoking, shooting up copious amount of heroin, or having a poor diet to be unadvantageous to the organism yet individuals persist in engaging in these activities. The more traditional way to think about determinism, I believe, is that our actions are guided by the physical forces operating on us at a molecular level. Given that our bodies are constituted by an interwoven fabric of subatomic particles, these forces then also act on us. This is a fact. The question is whether we are able to overcome these forces to act in a way consistent with our desires. Of course, given that our brains are also biological and composed of these particles too it may be that even our thoughts are fully directed and determined by these physical forces (i.e., our thoughts are prescribed). Think about it like this: If you were in a gym and threw a rubber ball against the wall, you could mathematically describe the physical characteristics of that ball (e.g., its velocity, acceleration, etc) and using that information could predict where it would land after bouncing off the wall and coming to a rest. Now pretend this rubber ball is a subatomic particle and imagine there are billions and billions of these “rubber balls” all shooting in various directions at different speeds. You could theoretically calculate the path of these “balls” using their physical characteristics (e.g., velocity, etc). Now, extending this argument further, given that higher-order constructions, such as people, are composed of these subatomic particles, do we have control over their [the particles that compose ourselves] direction or do they direct us? Determinism would suggest that latter; that is, that free will is a myth because we have no control over our actions and that our actions were prescribed at the moment when these particles first began moving (e.g., immediately after the Big Bang occurred).

So there is a very big difference, I think, in saying that behavior is determined or influenced. Determined implies no choice in directing our will; in fact, it implies no will at all. Influenced, however, suggests that forces interact with our will to form the choice we ultimately make. Your perception of the universe and whether it is deterministic or not ultimately guides which one of these terms you use. It is such a conundrum and, In fact, if the universe is determined then my anti-(hard) deterministic perspective was itself determined!

Finally, I think your point that our species may have evolved certain “functional delusions” (as you put it) is an apt and thoughtful one, and we can see evidence of that in certain psychiatric disorders. For example, children who have suffered harrowing and traumatic abuse at an early age are thought to be unable to process and integrate these experiences into their overall mental model and, as a result, repress the memories of the events such that they are forgotten, as if they never happened at all. This is akin to a “functional delusion” in my opinion. I suppose you could further extrapolate this line of reasoning and argue that, as a species, we evolved the ability to cope with our deterministic universe by deluding ourselves into believing that it is not actually deterministic. In fact, perhaps consciousness itself is an evolutionary product designed for just that purpose!

Quote from: "keithwdowd"

Quote from: "Davin"So no matter what the reality is, I will act the same and [determinism] has no effect on my life whatsoever.

I disagree with this statement.

The acceptance/rejection of determinism may have no effect on your life, but could have drastic implications for others. Psychologists refer to individuals who have adopted a deterministic/fatalist perspective as having an "external locus of control"; that is, believing that their volition has no impact on the physical world. Extreme cases of this condition (if you will) can lead to maladaptive behaviors and depression. My guess is that most people give no credence to determinism and so implicitly reject its stance that we have no free will. However, some people may give critical thought to this philosophical issue and reach the conclusion that determinism is the only "correct" conclusion one can reach, which, as I've said, can have extreme consequences for their mental health. So, while it is true that the "existence" of determinism has no impact on our daily physical lives (e.g., we will still perceive our choices as resulting from purposeful acts of our will), its "perceived existence" can have a dramatic impact on our mental lives (though not always in a negative way). An analogy could be made about religion: Whether or not we conclude that God exists has no real impact on our physical lives-the wind will continue to blow, the rain will still fall, and taxes will unfortunately keep being collected. But, our perception of the existence of God (just like our perception of determinism) can have very real consequences for our mental lives.

And, just for clarification, when I use the word "determinism" I'm referring to hard determinism.

It would have been nice if you responded to my premises instead of my conclusion, because the conclusion comes from the premises that you haven't addressed. I do understand that the dichotomy I listed is probably not all the possibilities, they're just all the ones I see right now and if you have another possibility I'd like to hear it. Anyway, like my point on if everything is determined: I will act however it is that I'm determined to act whether I'm determined to believe in determinism or I'm not determined to believe in determinism. However I act, am, believe, disbelieve, don't act, every thought has been determined if there is hard determinism.

Secondly, while I can understand that other peoples mental health or at least state of mind may be affected by the belief or lack of belief in something, mine will not likely be affected at all. That is why I made the statement about myself, because I can't say such a bold statement about how anyone else will be affected by what they believe. It appears you assumed that I made a statement about everyone, if not, then I can continue on how it will not affect me.

Quote from: "Davin"It would have been nice if you responded to my premises instead of my conclusion, because the conclusion comes from the premises that you haven't addressed. I do understand that the dichotomy I listed is probably not all the possibilities, they're just all the ones I see right now and if you have another possibility I'd like to hear it. Anyway, like my point on if everything is determined: I will act however it is that I'm determined to act whether I'm determined to believe in determinism or I'm not determined to believe in determinism. However I act, am, believe, disbelieve, don't act, every thought has been determined if there is hard determinism.

Secondly, while I can understand that other peoples mental health or at least state of mind may be affected by the belief or lack of belief in something, mine will not likely be affected at all. That is why I made the statement about myself, because I can't say such a bold statement about how anyone else will be affected by what they believe. It appears you assumed that I made a statement about everyone, if not, then I can continue on how it will not affect me.

I didn't mean for my response to come across as an attack against you or your comment. You are right:I should have addressed your premises prior to jumping on your conclusion. My intention was only to make a point about one possible effect of accepting a hard deterministic perspective of the universe. As you pointed out, however, if everything is ultimately determined then your actions are going to take on a specified (predetermined) path, which, in the end, (for you at least) has minimal impact on your state of mind regardless of whether the universe is a deterministic one or not. Finally, I am aware that you were only referencing yourself when you stated that believing (or not believing) in determinism had no effect on you or your mental well-being. I was only extrapolating what you said and offering my opinion on how belief in determinism may affect the general population.

Quote from: "keithwdowd"I didn't mean for my response to come across as an attack against you or your comment. You are right:I should have addressed your premises prior to jumping on your conclusion. My intention was only to make a point about one possible effect of accepting a hard deterministic perspective of the universe. As you pointed out, however, if everything is ultimately determined then your actions are going to take on a specified (predetermined) path, which, in the end, (for you at least) has minimal impact on your state of mind regardless of whether the universe is a deterministic one or not. Finally, I am aware that you were only referencing yourself when you stated that believing (or not believing) in determinism had no effect on you or your mental well-being. I was only extrapolating what you said and offering my opinion on how belief in determinism may affect the general population.

Don't worry, I never take offense, even when I probably should. In this case I'm pretty sure I shouldn't. I understand your point and I can see with many people I know, that the concept could affect their mental well being. I didn't disagree with your statement as a generalization, just as it applied to me, which is what it looked like you were disagreeing with. I didn't intend to sound offended or upset in any way, but often I am assumed so because of the language I choose to use.

Those who seriously consider determinism as a reality have not done the right homework.   Here are some  book titles for you.....The Drunkards Walk..sub title..How randomness rules our lives...Leonard Mladinow..............Chaos...subtitle...Making a New Science...James Gleick, ........Lonely Hearts of The Universe.....sub...The story of the scientific quest for the secret of the universe....Dennis Overbye   Each of these books contain some heady stuff but they are fairly easy reads and they introduce the reader to cosmic realities that are not ordinarily discussed at Starbucks.  We can easily put the determinism thing to rest by learning about or studying randomness.

Quote from: "Icarus"Those who seriously consider determinism as a reality have not done the right homework.   Here are some  book titles for you.....The Drunkards Walk..sub title..How randomness rules our lives...Leonard Mladinow..............Chaos...subtitle...Making a New Science...James Gleick, ........Lonely Hearts of The Universe.....sub...The story of the scientific quest for the secret of the universe....Dennis Overbye   Each of these books contain some heady stuff but they are fairly easy reads and they introduce the reader to cosmic realities that are not ordinarily discussed at Starbucks.  We can easily put the determinism thing to rest by learning about or studying randomness.

Thank you for the suggestions.  I have wondered about this - and assumed determinism would be undermined by modern theories of Chaos.  However, does that help the free will issue at all, which seems to be at the heart of the (psychological) problem of determinism, as far as many people are concerned.  Does a random, unpredictable cause really make "my choice" my choice.  Just because our physical brains might be effected by random, unpredictable influences, rather than measurable and predictable influences, doesn't mean the locus of control returns to me.  It just means my behaviors may have a certain element of unpredictability, not that I truly "control" them.  They still could be caused by forces in the brain over which "the self" cannot be said to have any proper influence.  The self could still be an effect, rather than a determining factor.

Quote from: "jrosebud"how do you all cope with hard determinism?  quite often lately i've been rather depressed about it all.

I don't. Not believing in free will does not require determinism. I recommend Galen Strawson. (And use first and last name when you look him up or you may pull up works by his dad- which will just give you a headache.)  http://believermag.com/issues/200303/?r ... w_strawson (http://believermag.com/issues/200303/?read=interview_strawson)

I was searching up on determinism because I also initially felt depressed when I started believing in determinism. I came up with this topic and just had the urge to post.
I'm sorry if I'm digging up an old topic and for breaking the forum rules, etc. I just felt I could help jrosebud if he/she is still depressed about this (yes, I tried PMs but it didn't work for some reason).

To jrosebud:
I could offer some help if you're still feeling depressed about it. I think the problem lies in how you're viewing the concept of determinism.
In one of your posts you described it as something/someone making you or controlling you... this (although not always consciously) can lead to the horrible feeling of not having control over one's own life, hence, depression starts.

Remember that this "someone/something" is not a separate entity. You are a part of this someone/something... it's called the universe.
We as humans were made to do what we want, seek pleasure and avoid pain. We do what we want, even if it has a predetermined cause (genetics, someone else [peer pressure], or simply your own intellect), you're still doing what you want to.
I've been thinking about this for the longest time, and I've come to the conclusion that determinism and free will are synonymous... we're still doing what we want.

People who think that removing all causes that determine an action, makes that action free. They're right.
Without a cause, an action is free. But it's random. And it doesn't describe free will. Without a cause free will can't exist. Our will to live and do what pleases us needs actions.

Also if you think that because our genetics makes us chose what we chose and be who we are makes us have no free will. You're going into an infinite logical loop. You can't possibly choose your genetics because you didn't exist yet.
In that case, free will would be impossible unless you placed your "soul" (if it exists) before the beginning of time and THEN chose how things played out...

Since the universe isn't deterministic, or at minimum cannot be both deterministic and realistic, there doesn't seem much point in worrying about it.

Quote from: "epepke"Since the universe isn't deterministic, or at minimum cannot be both deterministic and realistic, there doesn't seem much point in worrying about it.

What 'it' would that be? Bear with me here I have had little practical use for philosophical debate so I could be asking a fundamental question of great import, or not, and I wouldn't know either way  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "epepke"Since the universe isn't deterministic, or at minimum cannot be both deterministic and realistic, there doesn't seem much point in worrying about it.

What 'it' would that be? Bear with me here I have had little practical use for philosophical debate so I could be asking a fundamental question of great import, or not, and I wouldn't know either way  

"It" would, in this case, be hard determinism, or even determinism.  Though you could construct a partitioned equivalence class of all the things that support the concept of free will, which is one that I have always considered incoherent anyway.  It's much like "god."  A lot of people will say that it's there, but I've never heard an ontology.

Basically we've known for about a century now that the universe has to have genuinely random, acausal stuff in it (which affects everything), or it is irreal, or both.