Happy Atheist Forum

What are your thoughts about it?
What is wrong with it?

Well it really depends on what version of Christianity you're talking about.  I generally don't have a problem with whatever anyone wants to believe as long as they aren't hurting anyone and they don't try to legally impose their beliefs on others.

And welcome to the forum!  We have an introductions section if you want to say hello.  

There are so many things, I don't know where to begin.  

People of other religions believe in their religions just as deeply as you do.  You would perhaps say they are misguided and, of course, that the things they believe are just myths and stories.  Put Christianity under the same lens you apply to all other religions.  Then read the Bible and you'll be able to come back and tell us what's wrong with Christianity.  

The seminary makes a lot of atheists.  I'm not joking or trying to make light of this subject - most atheists I know became atheists after really, deeply and seriously studying their religion.  It just doesn't hold up to close examination.

If you treasure your faith, if you feel you wouldn't want to live without it, if it makes your life better, don't examine it too closely or you could lose it - whether you want to or not.

Christians tell us that human beings are worth nothing, that their achievements mean nothing and that all of us will suffer in agony for eternity if we don't do what they tell us to do, if we don't think as they tell us to think and if we don't behave as they tell us to behave.

If we don't do as the Christians tell us then we'll all suffer forever in burning fire, tortured beyond anything you can imagine, we'll cry out in agony from the pain and the anguish and the hopelessness of everlasting eternal damnation in hell.

BUT GOD LOVES US!

Well, you asked.

Hi.  The term "Christianity" is too broad to make a comment that applies to all of them.  It's hard to know which groups to include under the umbrella term "Christian" - heck, even people that call themselves Christians can't even all agree on who is and is not a Christian.  More than once I have had some Christians tell me with great certainty that Catholics are not Christians.

So it's very hard to say much about a group so diverse that it includes everything from Quakers sitting quietly in a circle, all the way to those Phelps "God Hates Fags" demonstrators.

Even if we slice away all the extremes, both pacifist and strident, and deal with just "mainstream Christianity", all I personally can say is "they have some beautiful music and charming ceremonies, most of them, and some lovely sentiments in there, if you look hard enough, it's just shame about the unevidenced beliefs and the uglier aspects of their scriptures".

I will say this in defence of most Christians - most of them do NOT live the way their scriptures tell them to.  Good thing too.  Most Christians cherry-pick the bits they want to believe and follow, and I'm thankful for that.

All the best,

Quote from: "Bombt"What are your thoughts about it?

There was that demotivator with Thor...  

On a more serious note, I think of Christianity the same as I think of Judaism and Islam. An Abrahamic religion is an Abrahamic religion. On a slightly larger scale, pink unicorns are pink unicorns no matter how you slice it, so Christianity is no better than any other religion, past or present.

I'm a bit disgusted with Human hive behaviour actually... And in part, that is because that's usually what draws otherwise nice people to organised religion.

Quote from: "Bombt"What is wrong with it?

That a bunch of people are using a 2000 year old book of poorly written fairy tales to justify and explain their lives, morals and values. And that some people use it to justify whatever they want justification for with their three-in-one-god.

I don't like it.

Everything.

Quote from: "Bombt"What are your thoughts about it?
What is wrong with it?

I have the same feelings towards Christianity that I do toward all Abrahamic religions (or any belief system that assumes the existence of a god), that there is no evidence. Being satisfied with not truly understand the universe is a big issue.

I also find the idea of an afterlife, bordering on selfish. One life is not enough?

Also teachings such as the existence of Hell and conversion by intimidation is highly immoral.

I will stop before I really get the ball rolling.

And Welcome Bombt!

Quote from: "Bombt"What are your thoughts about it?

It's a religion.

Quote from: "Bombt"What is wrong with it?

It's a religion.

What are your thoughts about them?
What is wrong with them?

Quote from: "Bombt"What are your thoughts about it?

Often mostly harmless but in extreme versions very detrimental to it's adherents.

Quote from: "Bombt"What is wrong with it?

All beliefs based on mythology that then extrapolate those beliefs into codes of morality which they force on others are bad because they base their world view on a falsehood. This means that real situations (homosexuality, marriages, divorce) are dealt with in ways based on inappropriate and inaccurate world views.

Quote from: "i_am_i"Christians tell us that human beings are worth nothing, that their achievements mean nothing and that all of us will suffer in agony for eternity if we don't do what they tell us to do, if we don't think as they tell us to think and if we don't behave as they tell us to behave.

Christianity makes no claim that human beings are worth nothing. In fact, it makes quite the opposite claim. Humans were made in the likeness of God, so doesn't that make them worth at least something? Not only that, but after God made Adam, he said ,"This is good." Therefore, we must be worth something. Our achievements are also worth something because God did not tell the Christians to not do anything. He told them to get out and do stuff.

As for the doing, thinking, and behaving, Christianity sets some guidelines for how to behave, but it is no different than how we should behave. For example, I think I can safely say that we should not kill. Even without the Bible, we probably all know this. God's commandments are no different than our own consciences; it's just making our consciences concrete.

For one to go to hell, according to the Bible, is to not have a relationship with Jesus. It doesn't say that if you break the laws you automatically go to hell. Christianity is not a religion of law.

Sorry if I wasn't clear,
I meant the Pentacostal branch.

QuoteI have the same feelings towards Christianity that I do toward all Abrahamic religions (or any belief system that assumes the existence of a god), that there is no evidence. Being satisfied with not truly understand the universe is a big issue.

I also find the idea of an afterlife, bordering on selfish. One life is not enough?

Also teachings such as the existence of Hell and conversion by intimidation is highly immoral.

There is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith. What unproven parts are you talking about? (just curious)

Well, we're all selfish aren't we? But wouldn't you like having an afterlife as opposed to nothingness?

I also believe that conversion by intimidation is immoral too. As a Christian, I'm supposed to just present an argument and let people decide for themselves. Of course I would like them to accept it, but if not, it's their own choice.


Thanks for being so welcoming everyone.

Quote from: "Bombt"As for the doing, thinking, and behaving, Christianity sets some guidelines for how to behave, but it is no different than how we should behave. For example, I think I can safely say that we should not kill. Even without the Bible, we probably all know this. God's commandments are no different than our own consciences; it's just making our consciences concrete.

Since it has been said better than I ever could, I refer you to this post (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=67795#p67795).

Would you say that all of those guidelines are in line with your conscience? Because, personally, I have problems with a few of them.

Atheism is not a religion and requires no faith.  Please keep that in mind.

And don't get me started on what the pentacostal branch has done to intimidate non-believers and believers alike.  Fear is their greatest weapon and they use it far more than most other branches I've had contact with.
Born in that, lived through it and it's the reason I'm not christian or any other religion either.

Quote from: "Bombt"For one to go to hell, according to the Bible, is to not have a relationship with Jesus. It doesn't say that if you break the laws you automatically go to hell. Christianity is not a religion of law.

Well in that case I'm defnitely going to hell, where I'll suffer forever in burning fire, tortured beyond anything you can imagine, I'll cry out in agony from the pain and the anguish and the hopelessness of everlasting eternal damnation in the fires of hell, and all because I do not have a relationship with Jesus.

I'm assuming that you're perfectly okay with that.

Quote from: "Bombt"What are your thoughts about it?

Usually none these days...it's just not something that comes to mind often.

Quote from: "Bombt"What is wrong with it?

A lot of things...what specifically depends on liberally you interpret the Bible.  I think Fundamentalist Christians do a good job at shining a spotlight on every Bible teaching that is wrong.

Quote from: "Bombt"For one to go to hell, according to the Bible, is to not have a relationship with Jesus. It doesn't say that if you break the laws you automatically go to hell. Christianity is not a religion of law.

Quote from: "Bombt"I also believe that conversion by intimidation is immoral too.

Hmm.

Quote from: "JillSwift"

Quote from: "Bombt"For one to go to hell, according to the Bible, is to not have a relationship with Jesus. It doesn't say that if you break the laws you automatically go to hell. Christianity is not a religion of law.

Quote from: "Bombt"I also believe that conversion by intimidation is immoral too.

Hmm.

:hail:  :hail:  :hail:  :hail:

Quote from: "Bombt"Sorry if I wasn't clear,
I meant the Pentacostal branch.

QuoteI have the same feelings towards Christianity that I do toward all Abrahamic religions

In case you aren't aware, pentacostal IS an abrahamic religion.

Quote from: "Bombt"Christianity is not a religion of law.

So what do you call the commandments, and all the other rules and regulations from Exodus 20 through 23, at least?  Not to mention Leviticus, Deuteronomy, so on and so forth.   There are so many laws in the bible on so many different things it's very hard to come to the conclusion that christianity is not a religion of laws

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "Bombt"Christianity is not a religion of law.

So what do you call the commandments, and all the other rules and regulations from Exodus 20 through 23, at least?  Not to mention Leviticus, Deuteronomy, so on and so forth.   There are so many laws in the bible on so many different things it's very hard to come to the conclusion that christianity is not a religion of laws

As an ex-Christian, I can predict what the answer will be: "Jesus washes away all sins so accepting Him is the only thing that matters."  But I would then ask, doesn't that make "accept in Jesus" a law?

Jesus also said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill.”

Quote from: "Sophus"As an ex-Christian, I can predict what the answer will be: "Jesus washes away all sins so accepting Him is the only thing that matters."  

Or, we don't follow the OT to the letter, it's more of a guideline/preamble to the NT.  Some view the OT as LAW only to be ignored when it doesn't suit the problem at hand.  Depending on the type of pentacostal we are talking about.

Wow....I'm trying so hard to be nice....and brief...*chucklin*...maybe tonight after work...

Quote from: "Bombt"But wouldn't you like having an afterlife as opposed to nothingness?

Actually, no.

Nothingness isn't all that bad, in my (temporary absence of) experience. So far I haven't heard of an idea of an afterlife that anyone takes seriously and would be in any way preferable to just simply ceasing to exist. It's a matter of personal taste, I suppose. Something like an indefinate continuation of my natural life would be alright by me, if I could stay young and healthy (oops, too late), especially if it wasn't complicated with gods and all that other religious stuff, but I'm not into wishful thinking.

Quote from: "Bombt"Christianity makes no claim that human beings are worth nothing. In fact, it makes quite the opposite claim.

I am going to assume that you have not read the post Elliebean linked you too.

Matthew 8:21: Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead."
10:27: Jesus warns us not to love our parents or children too much.
10: After Jesus denounces divorce, his disciples say that if divorce isn't allowed, then "it is good not to marry." Jesus agrees by saying that it is better to make yourself a eunuch (cut off your testicles)  "for the kingdom of heaven's sake."
19:29: Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward.
7: 13-14: Jesus says that most people will go to hell.
Mark 7: 9-10: Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law.
7: 13-14: Jesus says that most people will go to hell.

Mark 10: 29-30: Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families.
Mark 13:17: In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women.
Mark 7:27: Jesus initially refuses to cast out a devil from a Syrophoenician woman's daughter, calling the woman a "dog". After much pleading, he finally agrees to cast out the devil.

Luke 12:46-47: God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes."

What does Paul say?
1 Timothy 5:9-15: You should help a widow only if she
1) is over 60 years old,
2) had only one husband,
3) has raised children,
4) has lodged strangers,
5) has "washed the saints feet,"
6) has relieved the afflicted, and
7) has "diligently followed very good work."
Otherwise, let them starve.

Hebrews 12: 6-8: God always hurts the ones he loves. And if God doesn't hurt you, you are a bastard, not a son.

! Cor 3:14-16: All non-Christians are blind. They were blinded by God to prevent them from seeing the truth.

That's enough of that. I can only take so much of the bible at a time. At any rate, God, Jesus and Paul certainly do take a stance that people are worth nothing. Hebrews 12: 6-8 is a good testament to that.

QuoteHumans were made in the likeness of God, so doesn't that make them worth at least something?

Does my son mean he's worth more because he is a human like me? Are you saying that God is human? Or are you saying that if God made intelligent beings that DID NOT look like God that they would be worth less?

QuoteNot only that, but after God made Adam, he said ,"This is good." Therefore, we must be worth something.

Non sequitor.

QuoteOur achievements are also worth something because God did not tell the Christians to not do anything. He told them to get out and do stuff.

Read that post that you were linked to.

QuoteAs for the doing, thinking, and behaving, Christianity sets some guidelines for how to behave, but it is no different than how we should behave. For example, I think I can safely say that we should not kill. Even without the Bible, we probably all know this. God's commandments are no different than our own consciences; it's just making our consciences concrete.

"Thou shalt not kill" has been in use way before they were listed in the Ten C's. However, "Thou shalt not boil a kid in his mother's milk" is quite possibly original...*laffin*
But...however...anyway...the 10 C's are only the first few of 618 commandments. Are you obeying the Law as your God commands you to do?

QuoteFor one to go to hell, according to the Bible, is to not have a relationship with Jesus. It doesn't say that if you break the laws you automatically go to hell. Christianity is not a religion of law.

Me thinks thou needest to re read your bible.

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "Bombt"But wouldn't you like having an afterlife as opposed to nothingness?

Actually, no.

Nothingness isn't all that bad, in my (temporary absence of) experience. So far I haven't heard of an idea of an afterlife that anyone takes seriously and would be in any way preferable to just simply ceasing to exist. It's a matter of personal taste, I suppose. Something like an indefinate continuation of my natural life would be alright by me, if I could stay young and healthy (oops, too late), especially if it wasn't complicated with gods and all that other religious stuff, but I'm not into wishful thinking.

I would prefer to live a bit longer, maybe a thousand years or so, but eternity sounds so awful to me. If I put it into some kind of context where I can understand immortality I have this example: A ten by ten room with light, one book and a bed for 80 years. I think this is a good comparison to eternity because even after 10 years in that room I would be bored out of my mind. The boredom of eternity would probably seem to just sneak up on me and then I would be wishing for non-existence, because, given eternity, everything gets done to death.

Quote from: "Bombt"Sorry if I wasn't clear,
I meant the Pentacostal branch.

This was already taken care of.

QuoteThere is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith. What unproven parts are you talking about? (just curious)

Atheism is not a religion. If it was, bald would be a hair colour.

QuoteWell, we're all selfish aren't we? But wouldn't you like having an afterlife as opposed to nothingness?

So many people are afraid to die. They hold on to that fraying rope of an afterlife that has never been evidenced. Tell me. You're so worked up on achieving this "afterlife"...where were you before you were born?

QuoteI also believe that conversion by intimidation is immoral too.

That is precisely what the Bible does.

QuoteAs a Christian, I'm supposed to just present an argument and let people decide for themselves.

All Christian arguments fall flat simply because they cannot offer sufficient evidence. Just trot out this god of yours and let him speak to me.   He is after all omni-everything. I'm sure He could manage it.

QuoteThanks for being so welcoming everyone.

You're welcome

But you see, Davin, you'll be busy in Heaven...singing praises unto the Lord for ever and ever and ever and....

Oh...and the sad part of that is you'll know no one there! All will be made new.

Quote from: "Davin"...80 years....

My memory isn't that long.  

Not that it's important at all, we might as well discuss which super-powers we'd rather have if we could pick one.

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "Davin"...80 years....

My memory isn't that long.  

Not that it's important at all, we might as well discuss which super-powers we'd rather have if we could pick one.

I want the power to be able to make a rock so big I CAN lift...*chucklin*

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "Davin"...80 years....

My memory isn't that long.  

Not that it's important at all, we might as well discuss which super-powers we'd rather have if we could pick one.

Aye, but I have thought about this quite a lot and thought I would inject the idea that eternal life may not be all the great to start with, so wishing for it is kind of like wishing for all the money in the world.

Just checking to see if bompt came back...doesn't look like it :waits:

Right on bompt !!!!!!

QuoteAtheism is not a religion and requires no faith.

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

QuoteWell in that case I'm defnitely going to hell, where I'll suffer forever in burning fire, tortured beyond anything you can imagine, I'll cry out in agony from the pain and the anguish and the hopelessness of everlasting eternal damnation in the fires of hell, and all because I do not have a relationship with Jesus.

I'm assuming that you're perfectly okay with that.

Well, it's not that I'm okay with that, it's just that it's your choice. I want you guys to go to heaven, but if you choose not to, I can't do anything about it. It's entirely your choice. Also, let's say that Christianity is not true. Then being a Christian is just living a good and moral life. There would be nothing to lose. But, if it is true, then we got all to lose if we don't follow it.

to JillSwif and Sophust: By the way, when I was talking about hell, I was just explaining it, I wasn't trying to intimidate you guys into believing. I didn't mean it that way.

QuoteSo what do you call the commandments, and all the other rules and regulations from Exodus 20 through 23, at least? Not to mention Leviticus, Deuteronomy, so on and so forth. There are so many laws in the bible on so many different things it's very hard to come to the conclusion that christianity is not a religion of laws

Well, the point of Christianity is to get people to heaven. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

QuoteBut I would then ask, doesn't that make "accept in Jesus" a law?

Accepting Jesus is a choice, not a law. You don't have to do it.

QuoteOr, we don't follow the OT to the letter, it's more of a guideline/preamble to the NT. Some view the OT as LAW only to be ignored when it doesn't suit the problem at hand. Depending on the type of pentacostal we are talking about.

It's good to follow the law, and we try to, but when we fail (because it is impossible to follow every single law perfectly) Jesus is the ultimate trump card, as long as we have him, then it's all good. What I'm trying to say, is that the law is good, but Jesus is better.

QuoteI would prefer to live a bit longer, maybe a thousand years or so, but eternity sounds so awful to me. If I put it into some kind of context where I can understand immortality I have this example: A ten by ten room with light, one book and a bed for 80 years. I think this is a good comparison to eternity because even after 10 years in that room I would be bored out of my mind. The boredom of eternity would probably seem to just sneak up on me and then I would be wishing for non-existence, because, given eternity, everything gets done to death.

Well, let's take heaven, it's eternal happiness and joy. It's not like you sit and are bored for eternity.

QuoteMatthew 8:21: Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead."
10:27: Jesus warns us not to love our parents or children too much.
10: After Jesus denounces divorce, his disciples say that if divorce isn't allowed, then "it is good not to marry." Jesus agrees by saying that it is better to make yourself a eunuch (cut off your testicles) "for the kingdom of heaven's sake."
19:29: Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward.
7: 13-14: Jesus says that most people will go to hell.
Mark 7: 9-10: Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law.
7: 13-14: Jesus says that most people will go to hell.

Mark 10: 29-30: Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families.
Mark 13:17: In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women.
Mark 7:27: Jesus initially refuses to cast out a devil from a Syrophoenician woman's daughter, calling the woman a "dog". After much pleading, he finally agrees to cast out the devil.

Luke 12:46-47: God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes."

What does Paul say?
1 Timothy 5:9-15: You should help a widow only if she
1) is over 60 years old,
2) had only one husband,
3) has raised children,
4) has lodged strangers,
5) has "washed the saints feet,"
6) has relieved the afflicted, and
7) has "diligently followed very good work."
Otherwise, let them starve.

Hebrews 12: 6-8: God always hurts the ones he loves. And if God doesn't hurt you, you are a bastard, not a son.

! Cor 3:14-16: All non-Christians are blind. They were blinded by God to prevent them from seeing the truth.

That's enough of that. I can only take so much of the bible at a time. At any rate, God, Jesus and Paul certainly do take a stance that people are worth nothing. Hebrews 12: 6-8 is a good testament to that.

The Bible is full of superficial contradictions, but you have to see in what context it is written.

QuoteDoes my son mean he's worth more because he is a human like me? Are you saying that God is human? Or are you saying that if God made intelligent beings that DID NOT look like God that they would be worth less?

God is spiritual. Therefore, if we're made in his likeness, we're probably made in the SPIRITUAL likeness. And, it's not that your son is worth more, it's that he's worth the same.
The Bible just presents the good news. It not like it's trying to get you to heaven by telling that you're going to hell. It's presenting a chance, an opportunity that you can take if you want it.

Quote from: "Bombt"Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

What does the "big bang" or other theories have to do with atheism?

Quote from: "Bombt"Well, it's not that I'm okay with that, it's just that it's your choice. I want you guys to go to heaven, but if you choose not to, I can't do anything about it. It's entirely your choice. Also, let's say that Christianity is not true. Then being a Christian is just living a good and moral life. There would be nothing to lose. But, if it is true, then we got all to lose if we don't follow it.

Pascal's wager. This has been demolished many times before (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/heaven.html).

Quote from: "Bombt"to JillSwif and Sophust: By the way, when I was talking about hell, I was just explaining it, I wasn't trying to intimidate you guys into believing. I didn't mean it that way.

Oh please. The entire point of hell is to intimidate people into believing.

Quote from: "Bombt"Well, the point of Christianity is to get people to heaven. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

Yay! Hitler, a Catholic and true believer in Christ, is in heaven!

Quote from: "Bombt"Accepting Jesus is a choice, not a law. You don't have to do it.

Or suffer for eternity. that's a "choice", yeah.

Quote from: "Bombt"Well, let's take heaven, it's eternal happiness and joy. It's not like you sit and are bored for eternity.

How can any emotion be eternal?

Quote from: "Bombt"The Bible just presents the good news. It not like it's trying to get you to heaven by telling that you're going to hell. It's presenting a chance, an opportunity that you can take if you want it.

What a mind-pretzel! If it's not "Get in with Jesus or you're going to hell", then what is it?

But what if some other religion were right?  What if the Muslims are right and you'll be tortured for eternity by your God (because you both worship Yahweh) because you didn't follow the teachings of Mohamed?  

Don't you think it's a little weird that an all loving God hides His existence, makes it look completely unlikely, and then tortures forever any of His children who can't force themselves to believe in something that looks highly unlikely?  

You believe in original sin, don't you?  Yet you deny it that your religion asserts that humans are scum?  Original sin is the idea that humans are born sinning pieces of shit and can do nothing good because their earliest ancestors screwed up.  Because those early ancestors screwed up, God created death, illness, starvation, and suffering.  Sure, according to your religion, you can be washed clean in the blood of Jesus that God sent to earth to be tortured to death to partially redeem you.  But it's only partial redemption, no matter how you look at it.  The death, suffering, illness, starvation and all other sorts of misery still happen to you.  You are just as likely as anyone to have a child with a deadly and painful birth defect as anyone else.  Jesus' blood doesn't prevent you from being tortured (as God decreed every human must be because they are all pieces of shit because Adam and eve tasted a fruit) as punishment for original sin.

Quote from: "Bombt"

QuoteAtheism is not a religion and requires no faith.

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

I do not have to have faith that there is no god and do not need it to argue anything. Scientific theory does not require faith, it requires the ability to understand mathematics and physics.

Quote from: "Bombt"

QuoteSo what do you call the commandments, and all the other rules and regulations from Exodus 20 through 23, at least? Not to mention Leviticus, Deuteronomy, so on and so forth. There are so many laws in the bible on so many different things it's very hard to come to the conclusion that christianity is not a religion of laws

Well, the point of Christianity is to get people to heaven. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

If the religion requires you to follow its laws then it is a religion of laws.  If you only need jesus, why in the hell have all the laws?  You can just repent and be fine .

Quote from: "Bombt"

QuoteOr, we don't follow the OT to the letter, it's more of a guideline/preamble to the NT. Some view the OT as LAW only to be ignored when it doesn't suit the problem at hand. Depending on the type of pentacostal we are talking about.

It's good to follow the law, and we try to, but when we fail (because it is impossible to follow every single law perfectly) Jesus is the ultimate trump card, as long as we have him, then it's all good. What I'm trying to say, is that the law is good, but Jesus is better.

Again, the idea of repent and you are magically saved from breaking the laws of your own religion.

Quote from: "Bombt"The Bible is full of superficial contradictions, but you have to see in what context it is written.

Unless of course it applies to something the church doesn't like then it's taken as written.


None of this 'jesus saves' dribble washes with me and doesn't answer the questions asked of you and wasting my time on one who clearly doesn't see the faults in his argument is ridiculous.

Quote from: "Bombt"There is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith. What unproven parts are you talking about? (just curious)

There is no evidence, or enough to prove any religion correct to a point that is beyond doubt.

Quote from: "Bombt"Well, we're all selfish aren't we? But wouldn't you like having an afterlife as opposed to nothingness?

“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

Quote from: "Bombt"I also believe that conversion by intimidation is immoral too. As a Christian, I'm supposed to just present an argument and let people decide for themselves. Of course I would like them to accept it, but if not, it's their own choice.

I am glad we agree.

Quote from: "Bombt"There is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith. What unproven parts are you talking about? (just curious)

Which situation do you think takes more faith?:

You're walking down the street and your friend says "look there's a five dollar bill" and when you look you see a five dollar bill.

--or--

You're walking down the street and your friend says "look there's a five dollar bill" and when you look there's no five dollar bill and your friend says "you're just not believing hard enough."

To me, I'll take the scientific method every time for things that can have a significant effect on my life. I don't believe anything just based on hearsay and the things that you could consider belief are just things I accept as true because they've provided suffucient reasonable evidence for it. It's nothing personal, it's just that you're not going to sway rational people with irrational arguments.

Quote from: "Bombt"There is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith.

 :|

Honestly, I like the idea of death. Of what value is life (or anything) if it never ends? Today is infinitely more precious when there's a limited supply of tomorrows.

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "Bombt"

QuoteAtheism is not a religion and requires no faith.

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

I do not have to have faith that there is no god and do not need it to argue anything. Scientific theory does not require faith, it requires the ability to understand mathematics and physics.

You know..... I've sat and thought some more on this.  I think you must be equating faith with knowledge.  I don't need faith to argue a point, I need knowledge of the subject.  I don't need faith to understand science, I need knowledge.

Faith and knowledge are not the same thing and can not be used interchangeably.

And as others have said, who are you to tell us what we think?  Sick of it.  Until you develop mind reading capabilities, don't attempt to tell me or anyone else what we think.

Quote from: "Bombt"I want you guys to go to heaven, ...

Why?

Quotebut if you choose not to, I can't do anything about it.

Honestly, you couldn't do anything about it either way we choose.

QuoteIt's entirely your choice.

I have many more choices: Valhalla, Elysium, Fields of Aaru, Fields of Yalu, Asphodel Meadows, Sheol, Moksha, SWARG and countless others.

QuoteAlso, let's say that Christianity is not true.

I won't say it is not true. I will say there is no good evidence for it.

QuoteThen being a Christian is just living a good and moral life.

I already do that. I don't need a Jewish zombie's OK to live a good life.

QuoteThere would be nothing to lose.

I already have nothing to loose. I came into this world with nothing and I'll leave it the same way.

QuoteBut, if it is true, then we got all to lose if we don't follow it.

Pascal's wager. Please read the link provided for you.

QuoteBy the way, when I was talking about hell, I was just explaining it, I wasn't trying to intimidate you guys into believing. I didn't mean it that way.

You do not seem to understand. Your religion intimidates you into believing. Because you say how great your religion is, by proxy, so to speak, you are unintentionally intimidating us. Of course, I take no offense because I think you're not trying to shove down my throat.

QuoteIn the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

I'm going to start a new thread just for you concerning the Law.

QuoteWell, let's take heaven, it's eternal happiness and joy. It's not like you sit and are bored for eternity.

If I now need a brain to experience joy and happiness, how can I experience joy and happiness without one when I'm dead and my body is dust?

Quote from: "me"That's enough of that. I can only take so much of the bible at a time. At any rate, God, Jesus and Paul certainly do take a stance that people are worth nothing. Hebrews 12: 6-8 is a good testament to that.

QuoteThe Bible is full of superficial contradictions, but you have to see in what context it is written.

I am disappointed in you bombt. You have been given links as to what is needed to attain salvation and other posts. If you do not adhere to Jesus's teachings, how can you know you will go to heaven? Context in these teachings means nothing but HOW TO ACHIEVE salvation.

QuoteGod is spiritual.

Naw...God can make a virgin pregnant to give birth to himself. If God were not human, he could not procreate with humans.

QuoteTherefore, if we're made in his likeness, we're probably made in the SPIRITUAL likeness.

That's an unsubstantiated assertion. "Probably" doesn't cut it. That's why your religion must rely on religious faith.

QuoteAnd, it's not that your son is worth more, it's that he's worth the same.

By this, I can take your meaning to say either myself or my son, or any of the people posting on this board are worth the same as the Jews, gypsies or political prisoners executed by the Nazi's. At the same time, our worth is the same as the Nazi's. Let's not muddy the waters too much.

QuoteThe Bible just presents the good news.

Do you know how many people were killed by Satan that's listed in the bible? Roughly 10. Compare that to the 2.5+ million people God kills in the Hebrew Bible. Compare that to the countless numbers of men made eunuchs over the last 1700 years. Tell that to the countless women that have been downtrodden upon by no less their husbands, all for the sake of the "good news" and a chance at winning the lottery for a place in Heaven.

QuoteIt not like it's trying to get you to heaven by telling that you're going to hell. It's presenting a chance, an opportunity that you can take if you want it.

But that's what you're saying. If we aren't going to heaven, we're going to hell...*shrugs*. I don't need opportunities like this coming from an alleged "loving God".

Quote from: "louisyeah"Right on bompt !!!!!!

Yay for sockpuppets....warning 1. I will ban you if you do it again.

bombt created a sockpuppet to pat himself on the back...not sure why people do that  

lets hear it from gandhi who likes your christ but not your christians.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "louisyeah"Right on bompt !!!!!!

Yay for sockpuppets....warning 1. I will ban you if you do it again.

bombt created a sockpuppet to pat himself on the back...not sure why people do that  :shake:

QuoteDon't you think it's a little weird that an all loving God hides His existence, makes it look completely unlikely, and then tortures forever any of His children who can't force themselves to believe in something that looks highly unlikely?

You believe in original sin, don't you? Yet you deny it that your religion asserts that humans are scum? Original sin is the idea that humans are born sinning pieces of shit and can do nothing good because their earliest ancestors screwed up. Because those early ancestors screwed up, God created death, illness, starvation, and suffering. Sure, according to your religion, you can be washed clean in the blood of Jesus that God sent to earth to be tortured to death to partially redeem you. But it's only partial redemption, no matter how you look at it. The death, suffering, illness, starvation and all other sorts of misery still happen to you. You are just as likely as anyone to have a child with a deadly and painful birth defect as anyone else. Jesus' blood doesn't prevent you from being tortured (as God decreed every human must be because they are all pieces of shit because Adam and eve tasted a fruit) as punishment for original sin.

If God revealed himself to be completely real, then there would be no free will. There would be no choice but to believe in him. That belief would be meaningless, because we would be like robots, forced to believe in him.
Yes, people are fundamentally sinful, but it doesn't mean that they're worth nothing. Also, Jesus' redemption, according to the Bible, is for the next life, not this one. We still have the hardships of this world, but we will be with God in the next.

QuoteKDbeads wrote:
Bombt wrote:
Atheism is not a religion and requires no faith.

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.


I do not have to have faith that there is no god and do not need it to argue anything. Scientific theory does not require faith, it requires the ability to understand mathematics and physics.

You know..... I've sat and thought some more on this. I think you must be equating faith with knowledge. I don't need faith to argue a point, I need knowledge of the subject. I don't need faith to understand science, I need knowledge.

Faith and knowledge are not the same thing and can not be used interchangeably.

What I meant is that because no one knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether there really is a God or not, whatever you believe requires some faith/trust in it.

Bombt. In creating a sock puppet you reveal a number of very unfortunate characteristics about yourself and your arguments

1) You are disingenuous
2) You will use your disingenuousness to further your cause
3) You reveal you doubt the validity of your own point of view by feeling the need to create a sock puppet
4) You are not trustworthy
5) Your arguments can not be trusted
6) You have an extremely un-christian attitude i.e. lying is acceptable
7) You are a disgrace to your purported religion
8) You will go to Hell on the basis of the above (assuming such a place exists and you seem to think it does)

Your credibility as a representative of the christian religion and interlocutor are now zero.

Quote from: "Bombt"If God revealed himself to be completely real, then there would be no free will. There would be no choice but to believe in him.

Something that has overwhelming evidence of its existence...well, someone would have to be nuts not to believe it. But there is still free will. One has the choice not to worship that god.
I've been asked many times what evidence I would accept to believe in Bible God existence. My answer has always been that everyone in the world, at the exact same time, would receive the same mark (cross, lamb, fish, etc). Bible god doesn't even have to be seen for me to believe it exists if that would happen. But would I worship Bible God? Absolutely no frakkin way. And THAT'S my free will in action. And THAT refutes your next sentence:

QuoteThat belief would be meaningless, because we would be like robots, forced to believe in him.

QuoteYes, people are fundamentally sinful,

No they aren't. That's your Christian indoctrination speaking.

Quotebut it doesn't mean that they're worth nothing.

They are worth nothing if BibleGod can throw all of humanity but a 144,000 into Hell. And please reconsider the myth of your God, Noah's Arc. Even the innocent; babies, children, animals all had to die to assuage your God's cravings for blood and worship.

QuoteWe still have the hardships of this world, but we will be with God in the next.

The way I see it, the way Christians tell us, is that god is with us now. He's the creator. He listens to prayer. He allows suffering and evil in this world. Why would I want to live with a sadistic bloodthirsty tyrant in the next life?

QuoteAlso, Jesus' redemption, according to the Bible,

Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. Why in the world do you think Jews don't accept him for a Messiah? Although you haven't read the links you were provided, I'll tell you anyway:
God outlined the requirements in the Hebrew Bible (Also known as the Tanakh, Masoretic Text or Miqra or otherwise known as the Old Testament in Christianity). According to the Tanakh, the missions of the messiah includes returning the world to God and His teachings;
•   He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God (Isaiah 66:23, Ezekiel 37: 24-28).  
•   He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).
•   Restoring the royal dynasty to the descendants of David;
•   Overseeing the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Temple;
•   Gathering the Jewish people from all over the world and bringing them home to the Land of Israel;
•   Reestablishing the Sanhedrin;
•   Restoring the sacrificial system, the Sabbatical year and Jubilee.
This simply has not happened. And Judaism has no notion of the messiah not doing these things on the first visit, let along needing a second visit.
Additionally:
•   Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy could only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. Prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets (Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi). Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.
•   Jesus was not descended from King David. Per Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David. However, according to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from Isaiah 7:10-16 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by various Gods.  
•   In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption. There are two problems with this claim:
1)   There is no (Jewish) Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
2)   Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn't have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).

To answer this, Christian apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:
1)   There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph's genealogy, not Mary's.
2)   Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother.  Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.
3)   Even if the family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14)
4)   Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

•   Tradition teaches that the Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance.
Deut. 13:1-4 states that all mitzvahs remain binding forever and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. The New Testament contradicts the Torah and states its commandments are no longer applicable. (John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
Also read about the Notzrim, who might have had a different view of the Jewish messiah than traditional Judaism.
Redefining the Messiah's Role
In Christianity, the role of the messiah was redefined in order to fit the man's career as written by various anonymous authors. Because it was written that Jesus was to be resurrected, the Bible was examined (ad hoc) with the purpose of finding evidence that the messiah would be killed without bringing peace to the world or redemption to Israel. Enter the 'second coming'. This however, required creation of an explanation for the first coming and its disastrous end. The result of this was to shift the function of the messiah from a visible level where it could be tested and seen (as in Tanakh, what Christians call the "Old Testament") to an invisible/supernatural level where it could not. As a result of this reworking, the messiah's goal the first time around was changed from the redemption of Israel to the atonement for "original sin". It’s a reworking of Biblical themes.

There are mistakes with respect to Jesus’ death and its foretelling. Psalms 22:17 says, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet." Other scholars have said that Psalms 22:17 has the Hebrew word ki-asi, which would make this verse say "They bound my hands and feet".

As for the events that led up to the crucifixion:
1)   The NT says that the trial was on a Friday, and that on the night before, Jesus celebrated the Passover meal with his disciples. That would mean that his trial was on the first day of Passover. Here is a violation of two Jewish legal principles -- his trial was not on a Thursday or Monday as required, and it was on a holiday when no trials whatsoever could be held.
2)   There were no witnesses of his actual crime. The NT account of his trial shows that he was convicted on his own testimony. This is a severe violation of the Torah.
3)   There is no account in the NT of any call for defense witnesses. Both the second and third points violate Jewish Sanhedrin law in Deut 19:15.
4)   The choice of execution methods violates Torah completely. If convicted for Sabbath violation or false prophecy, the appropriate punishment was stoning.
5)   There are several problems if the trial and execution were held on a Friday, including limited time for a trial, and limited time for the execution. A crucifixion on a Friday afternoon was certain to run through  Shabbat. Assuming that the 120 judges of the Sanhedrin would have permitted a crucifixion (which is unlikely), one would doubt that they would have risked having Jesus die on the cross after the Sabbath began Friday night (the Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday as Christians have assert.  Because of the Sabbath laws, they would have been unable to carry the corpse to a burial site, and leaving the corpse on the cross overnight would be a Torah violation.
6)   Finally, there is no record that the court of that era was known to be reckless with the use of the death penalty. Yet, not only was Jesus crucified, but so were two petty criminals whose crimes did not justify the death penalty under Jewish law.

{Some of the above came from Jewish sources I can't remember. Some of it comes from past debates I've had on other forums. There are several Jewish sites where this info can be gleaned. }

Believe it or not, that's the short of it.

Why do we atheists have to explain the Bible to Christian?

Quote from: "Bombt"What I meant is that because no one knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether there really is a God or not, whatever you believe requires some faith/trust in it.

What faith do I need?  Lack of a god means nothing to me other than freedom.  I need no faith for that.  I don't have to trust every morning that when I wake up there is no god.  It's fact for me.  Fact requires no faith, it just is.

Maybe you would need faith but not me or any other atheist.

Quote from: "Bombt"What I meant is that because no one knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether there really is a God or not, whatever you believe requires some faith/trust in it.

No, no, my sock-puppet using friend, atheism has no belief. It is not "I know there is no god" it is simply "I do not believe in god". There is no more faith required for that than there is for "I do not believe in invisible pink unicorns" or "I do not believe in flumpical poopysocks".

QuoteBombt. In creating a sock puppet you reveal a number of very unfortunate characteristics about yourself and your arguments

1) You are disingenuous
2) You will use your disingenuousness to further your cause
3) You reveal you doubt the validity of your own point of view by feeling the need to create a sock puppet
4) You are not trustworthy
5) Your arguments can not be trusted
6) You have an extremely un-christian attitude i.e. lying is acceptable
7) You are a disgrace to your purported religion
8) You will go to Hell on the basis of the above (assuming such a place exists and you seem to think it does)

Your credibility as a representative of the christian religion and interlocutor are now zero.

the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

QuoteWe still have the hardships of this world, but we will be with God in the next.
The way I see it, the way Christians tell us, is that god is with us now. He's the creator. He listens to prayer. He allows suffering and evil in this world. Why would I want to live with a sadistic bloodthirsty tyrant in the next life?

Well, Albert Einstein had a quote to a question kind of like this. Someone asked him if God created everything, then why did God create evil. To this, Einstein said that evil actually does not exist, it is actually a word created to describe the absence of God. He used examples like cold and darkness which don't exist, but are actually words created to describe the absences of heat and light, respectively. If there were no suffering or evil in the world, then then there would be nothing by which we could see God, because if everything were good, then the meaning of good would be meaningless, as there is no bad to separate the good. I'm not exactly sure if I explained that right....

Quote from: "Bombt"Well, Albert Einstein had a quote to a question kind of like this. Someone asked him if God created everything, then why did God create evil. To this, Einstein said that evil actually does not exist, it is actually a word created to describe the absence of God. He used examples like cold and darkness which don't exist, but are actually words created to describe the absences of heat and light, respectively. If there were no suffering or evil in the world, then then there would be nothing by which we could see God, because if everything were good, then the meaning of good would be meaningless, as there is no bad to separate the good. I'm not exactly sure if I explained that right....

Your kidding right?  
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp (http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp)
Check your facts first before spreading BS like this.  It's a false story passed on by the religious, like so many other things.

Quote from: "Bombt"

QuoteBombt. In creating a sock puppet you reveal a number of very unfortunate characteristics about yourself and your arguments

1) You are disingenuous
2) You will use your disingenuousness to further your cause
3) You reveal you doubt the validity of your own point of view by feeling the need to create a sock puppet
4) You are not trustworthy
5) Your arguments can not be trusted
6) You have an extremely un-christian attitude i.e. lying is acceptable
7) You are a disgrace to your purported religion
8) You will go to Hell on the basis of the above (assuming such a place exists and you seem to think it does)

Your credibility as a representative of the christian religion and interlocutor are now zero.

the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

"Trying to do a project." Man, you don't know anything about user accounts, do you? Thank you for showing everyone here that you, sir, are a liar.

Quote from: "Bombt"the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

Ya...a friend of yours who happens to live in your house...  

Well, bombt. Since neither you or your "friend" care to reply to me, I quit speaking with you. I simply do not have the time to waste typing up stuff for you to ignore it. Carry on with the others, if you dare.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Bombt"the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

Ya...a friend of yours who happens to live in your house...  

...and uses your computer. Oh, right, sure, that's what it is, and you, innocent one most sincere, never knew anything about it.

Fess up, bombt. Who knows, we may forgive you!

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Bombt"the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

Ya...a friend of yours who happens to live in your house...  :P

Give the fellow a break. He invoked Pascal's Wager, for pity's sake. The most worn-out easily-countered non-argument ever invented. How knowledgeable could he be?

Quote from: "JillSwift"Give the fellow a break. He invoked Pascal's Wager, for pity's sake. The most worn-out easily-countered non-argument ever invented. How knowledgeable could he be?

Yeah, but he's trying to do a project, I mean he has a friend who's trying to do a project. Yeah, that's it.

"bombt" and "louisyeah."

And I'm trying to help him...I mean...his friend....*RME*

Quote from: "Bombt"

QuoteBombt. In creating a sock puppet you reveal a number of very unfortunate characteristics about yourself and your arguments

1) You are disingenuous
2) You will use your disingenuousness to further your cause
3) You reveal you doubt the validity of your own point of view by feeling the need to create a sock puppet
4) You are not trustworthy
5) Your arguments can not be trusted
6) You have an extremely un-christian attitude i.e. lying is acceptable
7) You are a disgrace to your purported religion
8) You will go to Hell on the basis of the above (assuming such a place exists and you seem to think it does)

Your credibility as a representative of the christian religion and interlocutor are now zero.

the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

If that is true then I apologise wholeheartedly.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Bombt"the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

Ya...a friend of yours who happens to live in your house...  

My wife and I both post from the same house and on first glance we would appear sock puppets and frankly there is no easy way to tell we aren't when you get down to it.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Bombt"the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

Ya...a friend of yours who happens to live in your house...  

My wife and I both post from the same house and on first glance we would appear sock puppets and frankly there is no easy way to tell we aren't when you get down to it.

Yes, but your wife didn't create an account just to give a two word agreement post then create a whole new thread that continued the same faulty line of thinking that has been promoted in this thread by bombt....if he had said his wife, sister, brother, friend etc had signed up to give him support instead of bs wording like "project" i would have been more inclined to believe him.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Bombt"the louisyeah account is actually a friend of mine, he's trying to do a project, and happens to agree with me. I did NOT make this account nor did I force my friend to do so.

Ya...a friend of yours who happens to live in your house...  

My wife and I both post from the same house and on first glance we would appear sock puppets and frankly there is no easy way to tell we aren't when you get down to it.

Quote from: "Whitney"Yes, but your wife didn't create an account just to give a two word agreement post then create a whole new thread that continued the same faulty line of thinking that has been promoted in this thread by bombt....if he had said his wife, sister, brother, friend etc had signed up to give him support instead of bs wording like "project" i would have been more inclined to believe him.

True. If it had been me I'd have PMed an admin explaining what was going on before hand. Isn't that in the rules somewhere?

Ah! Yes.

QuoteNO SOCK PUPPETS: To avoid confusion, each member is only allowed one account. If you are going to be sharing a computer/IP with a friend you must notify an admin upon sign up.

I assume you received no such notification?

Quote from: "Tank"I assume you received no such notification?

That is correct.

Honestly the chances of a friend signing up for an account on the same forum without having been coerced in some way by the other friend is fairly low...there are a ton of forums out there.   While figuring out a sockpuppet isn't an exact science there are commonalities to look at and the first post of a user being in support of their "friend" is one of them.  

That said, an apology for not following the rules could have opened back up the "friends" account if bombt had chosen to go that route instead of making up an excuse.  With users who have been acting rationally I generally check with them via pm before issuing a sockpuppet warning...there has been at least one case where a level headed atheist and a crazy fundamentalist were logging on from the same library.

I apologize for the trouble I caused,
this is my first time at a forum and I did not know how all of this worked.

Quote from: "Bombt"I apologize for the trouble I caused,
this is my first time at a forum and I did not know how all of this worked.

Okay, but you do understand ethics, don't you? It seems to me that under the banner of Christianity you tried to pull a con and you failed, you were found out.

Look, everybody does stupid things. But don't be burdened by it, not at all. You're among friends here. You're among atheists.

Quote from: "Bombt"I apologize for the trouble I caused,
this is my first time at a forum and I did not know how all of this worked.

How about you go respond to this viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5041 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5041) and we'll call it even?

Quote from: "Bombt"I apologize for the trouble I caused,
this is my first time at a forum and I did not know how all of this worked.

Well that explains a lot, in a good way. It's not so much a learning curve as a learning cliff when starting. Small points dealt with in detail are much more productive than huge swathes of text. You're one person facing a number of others and you'll end up swamped, pissed off and leave. In fact forget the points you want to make, it's rather too early in you posting career here to have much personal creditability. On a forum you have to have a measure of personal credibility before you'll get listened to. Your current postings have not helped your credibility here. No biggy, forums often have very short memories when it comes to new members. Let us get to know YOU and why you hold the world view that you do. Telling people what they think and what they think is wrong is a recipe for disaster.

Spend some time settling in, getting to know us and letting us get to know you.

Quote from: "Bombt"I apologize for the trouble I caused,
this is my first time at a forum and I did not know how all of this worked.

Take a bit of time to think, if you feel you desire it. Come back, their is no reason to end this here!  

There's a lot of reconciling to do, bombt. We've given you just the tip of the iceburg. When you can get through that tip, ask and we'll find something for you to dig farther on.

I apologise if this has already been said, but I'm offering my perspective as I see it.

1) Christianity's fundamental, central core is that God created us and loves us, and that because he loves us he wants us to be with him forever. But because the first female human disobeyed him (before she could even know that disobedience was bad, because she didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil) God decided to curse us all with sin, which is what we need forgiveness from. So to absolve these sins (which he decided to inflict, remember), he decided to wait a couple of thousand years, then impregnate a woman so that she could give birth to his earthly form, then have himself sacrificed to himself in order that we might be "saved" from the disobedience of one woman two thousand years earlier. But (and this is the really ridiculous part), that still wasn't enough. We have to actually believe all this, based solely on a self-contradictory canon of books that was written quite a while after Jesus died (the New Testament I mean), then edited/translated multiple times and has hardly any extra-biblical evidence to back it up. If we choose not to believe it and accept Jesus as our personal saviour, then we're cast into eternal hellfire for ALL ETERNITY. No all-loving God would do that, because infinite punishment for finite crimes is absolutely and categorically immoral and ridiculous.

2) Following on from that, many (most, in fact) christians I've encountered always spout off the "free will" rubbish to justify this eternal punishment. "You have free will", they say, "you can choose to accept Jesus and be saved, or not accept him and go to hell. So if you choose to go to hell then you're putting yourself there! You can't blame God for it!" That's bunk. Let me give you an example of why it's bunk. Imagine you're walking down the street and a mugger comes up to you, holds a gun to your face and says "give me all your money or I'll shoot you in the face!" That's a choice you've been given; either give the guy all your money and live, or keep your money and get shot in the face. But who in their right mind would choose the latter? That's the problem I have with christianity. They're supposedly representing the ideals of a morally just, infinitely loving creator God, yet the central tenet of their belief system is that this God wants us to obey and worship him or be sent to hell for all eternity, and then they turn around and tell us that that's supposed to be a reasonable choice!

Quote from: "AtheistBrit"I apologise if this has already been said, but I'm offering my perspective as I see it.

1) Christianity's fundamental, central core is that God created us and loves us, and that because he loves us he wants us to be with him forever. But because the first female human disobeyed him {1} [b](before she could even know that disobedience was bad, because she didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil) [/b]God decided to curse us all with sin, which is what we need forgiveness from. So to absolve these sins (which he decided to inflict, remember), he decided to wait a couple of thousand years, then impregnate a woman so that she could give birth to his earthly form, then have himself sacrificed to himself in order that we might be "saved" from the disobedience of one woman two thousand years earlier. But (and this is the really ridiculous part), that still wasn't enough. We have to actually believe all this, based solely on a self-contradictory canon of books that was written quite a while after Jesus died (the New Testament I mean), then edited/translated multiple times and has {2}hardly any extra-biblical evidence to back it up. If we choose not to believe it and accept Jesus as our personal saviour, then we're cast into eternal hellfire for ALL ETERNITY. No all-loving God would do that, because infinite punishment for finite crimes is absolutely and categorically immoral and ridiculous.

{3}
2) Following on from that, many (most, in fact) christians I've encountered always spout off the "free will" rubbish to justify this eternal punishment. "You have free will", they say, "you can choose to accept Jesus and be saved, or not accept him and go to hell. So if you choose to go to hell then you're putting yourself there! You can't blame God for it!" That's bunk. Let me give you an example of why it's bunk. Imagine you're walking down the street and a mugger comes up to you, holds a gun to your face and says "give me all your money or I'll shoot you in the face!" That's a choice you've been given; either give the guy all your money and live, or keep your money and get shot in the face. But who in their right mind would choose the latter? That's the problem I have with christianity. They're supposedly representing the ideals of a morally just, infinitely loving creator God, yet the central tenet of their belief system is that this God wants us to obey and worship him or be sent to hell for all eternity, and then they turn around and tell us that that's supposed to be a reasonable choice![/quote]
{1} It is amazing that Christians can't seem to get around this one teeny tiny discrepency .

{2} No evidence worthy enough to be called "evidence".

{3} It is even more amazing that most Christians can't get over the 'no free will' with an omni-god. If god knows what you'll do, then no matter what choices you think you have, you'll always do what the omniscient god knows what you'll do. There is no free will. Only the illusion of it.

wow. I don't even post in these threads anymore because I don't have to but I read every single one and talking and debating with them in real life is plain hilarious  and at the same time frustrating. Whenever you try to throw a modicum of data in the discussion it turns into a massive argument about semantics and whether you can trust any source or they try to use analogies that don't make any sense.