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From the article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vatican-reaches-out-to-atheists-ndash-but-not-you-richard-dawkins-1987518.html

QuoteThe Vatican is planning a new initiative to reach out to atheists and agnostics in an attempt to improve the church's relationship with non-believers. Pope Benedict XVI has ordered officials to create a new foundation where atheists will be encouraged to meet and debate with some of the Catholic Church's top theologians.

The Vatican hopes to stage a series of debates in Paris next year. But militant non-believers hoping for a chance to set senior church figures straight about the existence of God are set to be disappointed: the church has warned that atheists with high public profiles such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens will not be invited.

The "Courtyard of the Gentiles", as the foundation is known, is being set up by the Pontifical Council for Culture, the influential Vatican department that is charged with fostering better relations with non-Catholics. It was founded by Pope John Paul II in 1982 to spearhead his attempts to create a better dialogue with other cultures and faith, including those with no religion at all.

Until recently, Pope Benedict has shown less enthusiasm for the type of open-armed ecumenism favoured by his predecessor. In the past five years, the Vatican's relationship with other faiths has been severely undermined following a series of gaffes by the current pontiff, including a speech on the Prophet Muhammad that upset Muslims and the reintegration of an excommunicated Holocaust-denying bishop that severely undermined Catholic-Jewish relations.

The church is also aware that its reputation has suffered enormously in the eyes of atheists following the explosion of clerical sex-abuse scandals that broke out in Western Europe earlier this year and spread across the globe.

Until the Pope's recent turnaround on the sex-abuse scandal, where he admitted that the church's sins were to blame for the abuse, Vatican hardliners continued to push the line that the allegations were largely "petty gossip" that had been stirred up by secular enemies of the church.

But in an interview with the National Catholic Register, Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, the president of the Pontifical Council for Culture, made it clear he would not be willing to give a platform to certain prominent atheists.

The foundation, he said, would only be interested in "noble atheism or agnosticism, not the polemical kind â€" so not those atheists such as [Piergiorgio] Odifreddi in Italy, [Michel] Onfray in France, [Christopher] Hitchens and [Richard] Dawkins".

Such atheists, he added, only view the truth with "irony and sarcasm" and tend to "read religious texts like fundamentalists".

I'm curious to know what people think about this?  I've read a few blogs where people have started using the term 'faithiests' when referring to the kind of atheists the pope seems to regard as noble - presumably an atheist who doesn't believe in god but still accepts some apologist explanations for parts of the bible/religion in general.

In my opinion, it's their party and they can invite or not invite whomever they want.  I just don't see how insulting what I imagine is a fairly large section of atheists - namely those who identify with the attitudes of Hitchens and Dawkins, is really going to help relations between the Catholic church and non-believers.

It seems like catholic church, as an institution, has to take every chance to keep people in their structures. John Paul II didn't have to do that kind of discussions, because he was charismatic and full of energy (which makes him the last strong leader of a catholic church...). Benedict XVI does his job in a weird period of history, when atheism rises in force, and people are starting to hate the modern "inquisition". Discussion with atheists may somehow make theists think that their leaders are open minded and aware of what is going on in the world. Good marketing skills, Vatican..

I don't see how this will improve relations with the majority of atheists either, they're starting off by censoring any atheists they don't want.

Oh dear!  

Quote from: "Davin"I don't see how this will improve relations with the majority of atheists either, they're starting off by censoring any atheists they don't want.

At the risk of sounding like a Catholic apologetic, and as a former Catholic who has a grandfather in the priesthood (went back after grandma died), I think this is actually pretty cool. I don't so much see the exclusion of the likes of Hitchens and Dawkins as censorship per se, but rather that those gentlemen have, in the eyes of the church leaders, been so vocal and passionate and smart about their respective positions that they are considered, and perhaps have at times come across as, militant.

I have, in my perusings here, been witness to many a smart person who I believe could go in to a forum of this ilk, and wax the proverbial floor with any kind of church leader, all the while keeping heads level.  

I wonder, if the shoe were on the other foot, and Atheism and Agnosticism were a billion+ members strong, organized and rich, like Oprah-rich... would an Atheist organization open up a forum like this and have a discussion allowing theists to debate the existence of God? I'd like to think so...

I'm curious though, after reading the very first line in the snippet of the OP

QuoteThe Vatican is planning a new initiative to reach out to atheists and agnostics in an attempt to improve the church's relationship with non-believers.

what exactly the church has to gain by improving the relationship with non-believers?  :P

Hismikeness

Quote from: "hismikeness"

Quote from: "Davin"I don't see how this will improve relations with the majority of atheists either, they're starting off by censoring any atheists they don't want.

At the risk of sounding like a Catholic apologetic, and as a former Catholic who has a grandfather in the priesthood (went back after grandma died), I think this is actually pretty cool. I don't so much see the exclusion of the likes of Hitchens and Dawkins as censorship per se, but rather that those gentlemen have, in the eyes of the church leaders, been so vocal and passionate and smart about their respective positions that they are considered, and perhaps have at times come across as, militant.

It's just the wording of "noble atheism or agnosticism, not the polemical kind â€" so not those atheists such as [Piergiorgio] Odifreddi in Italy, [Michel] Onfray in France, [Christopher] Hitchens and [Richard] Dawkins."

Using the word noble seems like a decent criterion as long as they also supply some kind of definition of noble, secondly "so not those atheists such as" leaves them open to ban anyone they deem as like these guys... which could just be pretty much any similarity that they find on common with any of those guys (though I doubt it will be something like: they all like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches). I'm just a little weary because of most of all other church sponsored debates I've seen tend to censor by restricting the people that they debate or by restricting the things that are allowed to be said. Not always, but a lot. And the Catholic church hasn't exactly had a history of honest debate. I hope my assumptions are wrong and I'm in no way 100% or even 90% sure this is the way it will go, I'm just speculating.

Though I would be happy to see these debates come out very clean, unedited and honest.

Quote from: "hismikeness"I wonder, if the shoe were on the other foot, and Atheism and Agnosticism were a billion+ members strong, organized and rich, like Oprah-rich... would an Atheist organization open up a forum like this and have a discussion allowing theists to debate the existence of God? I'd like to think so...

I definitely would, but I wouldn't restrict by people or what they can say, but I might restrict how long a person can talk and possibly force responses to questions before moving on. If someone (either a believer in god or not), wants to make the debate useless, then I think the rational minds will see it for what it is.

Quote from: "hismikeness"I'm curious though, after reading the very first line in the snippet of the OP

QuoteThe Vatican is planning a new initiative to reach out to atheists and agnostics in an attempt to improve the church's relationship with non-believers.

what exactly the church has to gain by improving the relationship with non-believers?  

I think the church will gain a better image from those not in the church and then possibly not seem so bad to everyone else to possibly gain more people to leach money off of.

QuoteI think the church will gain a better image from those not in the church and then possibly not seem so bad to everyone else to possibly gain more people to leach money off of.

You know, right after I typed my question of what they have to gain, I realized, DUH, money!Somehow, someway, right?

Quote from: "hismikeness"You know, right after I typed my question of what they have to gain, I realized, DUH, money!Somehow, someway, right?

Meh, just my speculation. I'm fully willing to accept that the church could change into being more open and honest, however I'm at the point where I think they need to prove to the world that they are, before my opinion of them even starts to change.

Eh...it's like a Presidential debate where the conservative side gets the presidential hopeful and the liberal side gets the secretary.

Quote from: "hismikeness"

QuoteI think the church will gain a better image from those not in the church and then possibly not seem so bad to everyone else to possibly gain more people to leach money off of.

You know, right after I typed my question of what they have to gain, I realized, DUH, money!Somehow, someway, right?

One possible outcome is that the Catholic theologians get to refine their arguments and then distribute those refined arguments.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "hismikeness"

QuoteI think the church will gain a better image from those not in the church and then possibly not seem so bad to everyone else to possibly gain more people to leach money off of.

You know, right after I typed my question of what they have to gain, I realized, DUH, money!Somehow, someway, right?

One possible outcome is that the Catholic theologians get to refine their arguments and then distribute those refined arguments.

If they wanted that, they'd invite the polemicists.

Remove polemics, and all you can discuss from the side of atheism without polemics is "Well, I've no reason to believe." At most, when they try to offer "evidence", all you've got is reasons not to accept the evidence as evidence. It's a guaranteed stalemate, and the oldest woe-go-round ever.

I can't see this as anything more than a PR move. "Lookit us, we're so ecumenical and peaceful! We even discuss with atheists."

Quote from: "JillSwift"I can't see this as anything more than a PR move. "Lookit us, we're so ecumenical and peaceful! We even discuss with atheists."

You're most likely right. It would fit in with their current modus operandi.

QuotePope Benedict XVI has ordered officials to create a new foundation where atheists will be encouraged to meet and debate with some of the Catholic Church's top theologians.

Now that sounds like a fun way to spend a Sunday morning.

I volunteer to debate the Pope on the issue of pedophilia in the church.  

The only thing that I will accept will be the Church's full apology for the suffering, ignorance, torture, rape, murder, genocide, war, etc. it has caused and all the scientific discoveries it tried to hinder and concluding all of that with its resignation as an entity and creating Vatican city into a memorial for all of its victims.

I hope I'm not alone in that statement.

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