Happy Atheist Forum

If atheism becomes the predominant world view, how would the remaining theists feel? Also how could they react to this reversal of majority support?

I have some thoughts on this subject but rather than bias the discussion I'd like to hear some other peoples thoughts first.

Whenever I think of atheism becoming the predominate world view, I think of illogical humans chopping down trees for tables when they have perfectly good tummies to eat on.

Hmmm... interesting question.  Personally I don't think we will ever get there due to the large number of weak minded persons we share this planet with that need that sense of someone 'taking care of them'.

However, in the spirit of the question.....
This could go 2 ways, the intelligent theists choosing to live normal lives among the rest of us know that it's their choice to believe as it is our choice not to or a mass exodus of fanatics to their own country where they can feel safe from us 'evil, god hating' people.

Moderate theists would probably be won over pretty easily, which would leave the fanatics. I think they would all become terrorists.

Quote from: "KDbeads"or a mass exodus of fanatics to their own country where they can feel safe from us 'evil, god hating' people.

...Followed by a massive war that ends up in evil (being us) emerging victorious  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "KDbeads"or a mass exodus of fanatics to their own country where they can feel safe from us 'evil, god hating' people.

...Followed by a massive war that ends up in evil (being us) emerging victorious  :headbang:

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Whenever I think of atheism becoming the predominate world view, I think of illogical humans chopping down trees for tables when they have perfectly good tummies to eat on.

 Okay I've read this a few times and you appear to be saying that people are too dumb to think really deeply and thus atheism will always be a minority word view?

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Whenever I think of atheism becoming the predominate world view, I think of illogical humans chopping down trees for tables when they have perfectly good tummies to eat on.

:D

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Whenever I think of atheism becoming the predominate world view, I think of illogical humans chopping down trees for tables when they have perfectly good tummies to eat on.

:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_God_Go

Quote from: "KDbeads"Hmmm... interesting question.  Personally I don't think we will ever get there due to the large number of weak minded persons we share this planet with that need that sense of someone 'taking care of them'.

Funnily enough that's what my wife thinks is the ultimate flaw in an atheistic world future. That a large number of people need the comfort blanket of superstition.

Quote from: "KDbeads"However, in the spirit of the question.....
This could go 2 ways, the intelligent theists choosing to live normal lives among the rest of us know that it's their choice to believe as it is our choice not to or a mass exodus of fanatics to their own country where they can feel safe from us 'evil, god hating' people.

Option one would be ideal, however that still leaves the fundamentalists to deal with. I also doubt that in option 2 the 'residuum' would leave willingly.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "KDbeads"Hmmm... interesting question.  Personally I don't think we will ever get there due to the large number of weak minded persons we share this planet with that need that sense of someone 'taking care of them'.

Funnily enough that's what my wife thinks is the ultimate flaw in an atheistic world future. That a large number of people need the comfort blanket of superstition.

Unfortunately most everywhere I've lived people seem to be this way, they can't think for themselves nor can they accept fault for their own actions.  Most of them would be lost without a god to call on.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "KDbeads"However, in the spirit of the question.....
This could go 2 ways, the intelligent theists choosing to live normal lives among the rest of us know that it's their choice to believe as it is our choice not to or a mass exodus of fanatics to their own country where they can feel safe from us 'evil, god hating' people.

Option one would be ideal, however that still leaves the fundamentalists to deal with. I also doubt that in option 2 the 'residuum' would leave willingly.

Not thinking they would leave willingly enough either but history proves they can if the really really want to, we just need some serious religious oppression for them to escape from to their new world

Hadn't really thought about the fundies in this equation....  Maybe they'll go back to their caves and die out from lack of breeding material?

Quote from: "elliebean"Moderate theists would probably be won over pretty easily, which would leave the fanatics. I think they would all become terrorists.

This would be my concern.

Quote from: "Tank"This would be my concern.

Well, since we would be the ones sitting on the intellectual power, they'd probably run out of ways of making bombs pretty quickly... After all, although it takes only one fundie to mix fertilizer with diesel, it takes a helluva' lot more to manufacture the named components

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Tank"This would be my concern.

Well, since we would be the ones sitting on the intellectual power, they'd probably run out of ways of making bombs pretty quickly... After all, although it takes only one fundie to mix fertilizer with diesel, it takes a helluva' lot more to manufacture the named components

Isn't that the current situation anyway? Al-Qaeda is a parasitic organisation relying on high-tech components (mobile phones etc) that it has no capability to manufacture. I don't see an essential change in that part of the equation.

What does concern me is that as the balance between rationalism and irrationalism tips towards rationalism (hopefully) then the feelings of persecution and isolation of the remaining irrationalists could possible grow to dangerous levels.

Quote from: "Tank"I don't see an essential change in that part of the equation.

If theists had a country, we wouldn't have to trade with it. Let them manufacture their own things. AND we could have two guards for every meter of the border

Stopping trade with Al Quaeda is a bit harder since they, like theists today, are everywhere.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Tank"I don't see an essential change in that part of the equation.

If theists had a country, we wouldn't have to trade with it. Let them manufacture their own things. AND we could have two guards for every meter of the border :P

Stopping trade with Al Quaeda is a bit harder since they, like theists today, are everywhere.

I hope the underlined is 'tongue in cheek.'?

Quote from: "Tank"I hope the underlined is 'tongue in cheek.'?

Hwut..?  :P )

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Tank"I hope the underlined is 'tongue in cheek.'?

Hwut..?  :P )

Soz. Were you joking?

Quote from: "Tank"Soz. Were you joking?

I was following up on mine and someone else's fantasy of shipping the fundies to like Greenland and procliming it their own country, so obviously I was not being serious

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Tank"Soz. Were you joking?

I was following up on mine and someone else's fantasy of shipping the fundies to like Greenland and procliming it their own country, so obviously I was not being serious :D

Quote from: "Tank"Ah! I was hoping so but being a n00b I didn't want to assume  :P Always best to just ask.

That will never happened. People need faith and hope. Atheism will never win.

Quote from: "AntiAtheist"That will never happened. People need faith and hope. Atheism will never win.

Then the best we can hope for is a secular world than?

Quote from: "AntiAtheist"That will never happened. People need faith and hope. Atheism will never win.

I didn't know it was a competition.

And I don't think people need faith at all.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "AntiAtheist"That will never happened. People need faith and hope. Atheism will never win.

I didn't know it was a competition.

And I don't think people need faith at all.

Unfortunately I am slowly coming to the opinion, possibly against my better judgement, that people with an IQ of less than 80 (about 40% of the population) can't deal with the world without reference to a higher authority figure, in most cases god fulfils this role, and simply can't really cope with the intellectual demands placed on them in the modern 1st world. Faith is a simple, understandable and easy concept to sell. The personal responsibility required of secular and atheistic thought is not easy for a lot of people to understand or cope with. Faith is a doddle to sell to a huge segment of the population.

Quote from: "Tank"Unfortunately I am slowly coming to the opinion, possibly against my better judgement, that people with an IQ of less than 80 (about 40% of the population) can't deal with the world without reference to a higher authority figure, in most cases god fulfils this role, and simply can't really cope with the intellectual demands placed on them in the modern 1st world. Faith is a simple, understandable and easy concept to sell. The personal responsibility required of secular and atheistic thought is not easy for a lot of people to understand or cope with. Faith is a doddle to sell to a huge segment of the population.

I'm thinking the same, but I'm raising that IQ to 90, just based on my overall experience with people.

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "Tank"Unfortunately I am slowly coming to the opinion, possibly against my better judgement, that people with an IQ of less than 80 (about 40% of the population) can't deal with the world without reference to a higher authority figure, in most cases god fulfils this role, and simply can't really cope with the intellectual demands placed on them in the modern 1st world. Faith is a simple, understandable and easy concept to sell. The personal responsibility required of secular and atheistic thought is not easy for a lot of people to understand or cope with. Faith is a doddle to sell to a huge segment of the population.

I'm thinking the same, but I'm raising that IQ to 90, just based on my overall experience with people.

It is worth noting that the majority world view switches from theism to atheism and about IQ 125. That came up in a thread discussing the number of atheists in Congress. On the basis of educational achievement something like 80% would be atheists in the general population. At the time I believe only one congressman was an overt atheist.

But back on topic. It would appear that to live together peacefully and without oppression the only way forward is a secular world order where atheists and theist combine to defend the rights of an individual to hold any world view they want to.

Quote from: "Tank"Unfortunately I am slowly coming to the opinion, possibly against my better judgement, that people with an IQ of less than 80 (about 40% of the population) can't deal with the world without reference to a higher authority figure, in most cases god fulfils this role, and simply can't really cope with the intellectual demands placed on them in the modern 1st world. Faith is a simple, understandable and easy concept to sell. The personal responsibility required of secular and atheistic thought is not easy for a lot of people to understand or cope with. Faith is a doddle to sell to a huge segment of the population.

I subscribe to that point of view... For some reason, there does seem to be a correlation between a person's IQ and level of education and the likelihood of them being theists...

I would really like to get more input from theists on this question. Would you feel threatened in a secular world? What are your feelings about the apparent rise in athistic views and the ability of atheists to form groups on the internet?

Quote from: "Tank"I would really like to get more input from theists on this question. Would you feel threatened in a secular world? What are your feelings about the apparent rise in athistic views and the ability of atheists to form groups on the internet?

Ask and ye shall receive!

BTW, wow... haven't seen so many biased viewpoints since I had breakfast with a bunch of born-agains...
I think you'll find quite a few intelligent theists, and a fair share of sub-par atheists.

Ok, so an "Atheist World" (was that the sequel to West World?)
I don't see it ever happening.

Now, an Agnostic world?  That's possible.
For me, it's less about "Is there a god?" or "Is there no god?", and more about our comfort with being able to say "I don't know".

Faith, Belief, and Hope are a large part of being human.  The expression of them through religion is the flaw, IMHO.  Take a bit of time to think this through.  How much a part of your life is belief?

If it were all about being rational and intelligent, we'd be SkyNet.

As for extremists... It only takes one nutjob with a bomb to take out a bunch of geniuses.
That's not rational.  It's not logical.  It's why, in some cases, the nutjobs win.  And why they won't go away.

That's the skinny, now let's chew the fat!
JoeActor

I don't think you'll ever see the day when atheists are a majority. But the numbers are increasing. Depending upon the tolerance of some theists they're fine with it, others seem to strongly oppose it. I couldn't care less what people believe until those beliefs begin to incite awful actions, as strong ones often do. If only we all believed in tolerance ("attack the hippie!")

You'll definitely never see a world of Nihilist freaks like me.  :D

Quote from: "Sophus"@joeactor are you more of a Deist or do you associated with a particular established religion more or less?

Nope... no established religion for me.  Was raised Roman Catholic, but abandoned that over time as I got exposed to more viewpoints.

Agnostic Theist is the best description for me.

I believe there is something, but I don't define, uh, whatever it is.

That's my personal philosophy and it gets me out of a lot of mental jams.

your personal philosophy is the best example of an attitude that makes me wanna laugh, because that means you are physically weak. Atheism is for strong people who are able to take all the responsibility for everything they do. Following your ideology allways leaves a possibility to befriend any of the existing religions. Finally that makes you an undecided person, who is not informed enough to make a definite statement.
I also had a time like that in my life, but as I like Nietzsche's philosophy, his point of view shaped my counsciousness into a well-defined atheist and rationalist.
It takes a time, and a lot of space in your mind btw...

Quote from: "polishman"your personal philosophy is the best example of an attitude that makes me wanna laugh, because that means you are physically weak. Atheism is for strong people who are able to take all the responsibility for everything they do. Following your ideology allways leaves a possibility to befriend any of the existing religions. Finally that makes you an undecided person, who is not informed enough to make a definite statement.
I also had a time like that in my life, but as I like Nietzsche's philosophy, his point of view shaped my counsciousness into a well-defined atheist and rationalist.
It takes a time, and a lot of space in your mind btw...

joeactor has displayed very logically strong responses so to call him weak is to not know him. His ideology doesn't leave open any more a possibility to join a religion than yours does. There isn't anything wrong with undecided.

I think this kind of response is similar to the standard theistic, "if you don't believe what and how I believe then you must be some kind of inferior person compared to me."

Just because you think your view of the world is the best, doesn't mean that everyone else must follow it in order to be as superior as thou art.

no offence, I'm not critisizing his beliefs as totally bad. I even think that if someone is one of the inventors (as I heard) and members of the forum, he must be a person who has his own opinion and it's not a teenage theory. I;m just saying my ideology is a bit different, that's all.

It's totally ok with me to criticize anyone's beliefs, just not to come right out with statements that come off as very condescending (like "your personal philosophy is the best example of an attitude that makes me wanna laugh, because that means you are physically weak.", "Finally that makes you an undecided person, who is not informed enough to make a definite statement." and "It takes a time, and a lot of space in your mind btw...") when the person doesn't deserve it.

I'm just giving my opinion that joeactor doesn't deserve it just because of his world view. And because he has demonstrated a very rational mind he definitely doesn't deserve it. Plus this is a "Happy Atheists" forum, so to follow the spirit of the site, I thinks it's better to be polite until treated otherwise.

I don't mean to come off as being rude here. I do often require that people let me know when I am being rude. This is because I have a difficult time knowing when something I say is rude and while I've gotten much better at knowing what most people consider being unreasonably rude, I still tend to come off as completely rude sometimes.

Then I apologize for my agressiveness.

Davin: Thanks!

Quote from: "polishman"Then I apologize for my agressiveness.

Apology accepted.

Be careful how you view those who disagree with your perspective, though.

Even if atheists represented a stronger position from a logical perspective, it doesn't mean anything if they're outnumbered.
Being "right" is not much comfort if you can be beaten by those you view as "wrong".

At present, the majority of the Earth's population is religious, and they control the majority of the planet.
Making a nuisance of yourself and calling them names will only cause trouble for you and your cause.

Like it or not, "Might Makes Right" and "History is Written by the Victors" are more than just clever aphorisms...

Quote from: "joeactor"Now, an Agnostic world?  That's possible.
For me, it's less about "Is there a god?" or "Is there no god?", and more about our comfort with being able to say "I don't know".

I guess I just don't understand agnosticism.  I'm an atheist, but I also believe my viewpoint to essentially be 'I don't know'.  I'm an atheist because I don't see there being any more of an argument for god then there is an argument for bigfoot or nessie.  Once there is evidence of a god in any respect existing, then I'll go from I don't know to maybe, but as it is I don't see that 'maybe' makes any sense, and it seems like agnostics feel that 'maybe' makes the most sense, not 'I don't know.'  I guess technically I believe there's a slim chance god exists, but again, there's also a slim chance bigfoot exists.  That slim chance isn't because of evidence, however, it's because I don't think absolute knowledge of those kinds of entities is possible.

I'm an a-theist.  I don't believe there is evidence for the existence of god.  I'm not saying with certainty that there isn't a god, I'm saying no credible evidence exists to suggest there is one in the first place.

Maybe it's because I was never raised with any religious ideas being presented to me as factual, I don't know, but it seems like the only evidence people have for god are subjective personal feelings and beliefs based on unverifiable literature.  That's not enough for me to seriously entertain the idea of something being real, especially since I've never had a personal emotional experience that I recognized as in any way influenced or inspired by a god.

I want an apatheist world, where the whole god issue is, well, a non-issue.

It wouldn't eliminate faith or belief in a god or gods, but it wold make it "their thing", because it's a non-issue. Similarly, no beliefs in such concepts would engender similar responses (that is, none at all).

The idea that humans "need" faith or belief at any level has always struck me as at odds with what we know of human psychology, and often it comes off as a weak defense of a world-view known to the believer as inherently irrational and indefensible. That said, so long as one's actions are defensible and rational, though, all else is "whatever lets you sleep soundly". It's not even tolerance, per se, it's just knowing that it makes no real difference here in "objective reality".

Do y'all remember the scene in Conan the Barbarian where Conan and his friend Subotai discussed their respective religions? They both were so certain their god was so much better than the other's, but in the end the friendship was more important. It didn't even need to be said, it simply was. That's what I think needs to become the major cultural factor. Not atheism, not any religion, rather community being really far more important than anything else.

Well, hope that made sense. I'm beat tired and I still have to be up for the next few hours, so pardon ramblind please.  

Hey Pinko,

Sounds like you're an Agnostic Atheist:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2Fevolvingthoughts%2Fatheist_chart.gif&hash=a25aaa9247ca50b7f5ae2b6714772d9698a62319)

I say an "Agnostic" world is more likely because, to me, "I Don't Know" is the honest answer to the question "Is There a God?"

Jill: I could see an apatheist world too...

YMMV,
JoeActor

I agree - 'I don't know' or 'I don't care' seem to make the most sense to me.

If I'm pretending that the world ends up being the inverse of what it is now, then I imagine people will have found something else instead of religion to use to marginalize others.  I don't think that would be atheism specifically, but who knows how a concept might get perverted over the course of time, right?

I don't see this as being very much of a "theist" world. It's really more of a corporate world. There are no religious police where I live. I see churches all over but I see a lot more Starbucks. I never hear anyone talking about religion anywhere. Everyone is just going about their daily lives, what they may be thinking I have no way of knowing.

When I go to the shopping mall, when I drive around the city, when I go out to eat or to a bar...nothing, no religion. I see a lot of corporate icons all over the place, but there's no crucifix to be seen above city hall. Really, I just don't see it anywhere. Professional sports, absolutely, that's most people's religion it seems, but nothing about God or Jesus or anything in the so-called public square. I guess I'd really have to look for it to find it.

Oh, you hear people say stuff like "Our prayers are with the families blah-blah" and that sort of thing, "It's a miracle that no one was killed or injured," but that's just platitudes. I don't get the impression that the people saying those things really believe it.

I don't know. I don't feel the least bit oppressed by religion, nor do I see it brazenly trumpeted all over the place.

I think we're seeing the future of theism right now, in this country anyway.

Quote from: "Tank"If atheism becomes the predominant world view, how would the remaining theists feel? Also how could they react to this reversal of majority support?

I have some thoughts on this subject but rather than bias the discussion I'd like to hear some other peoples thoughts first.

Personally, I don't think that will ever happen. But if you think about how religions have supplanted other beliefs, perhaps you could have some sort of idea as to how or what would happen.

Think of:
The white Europeans that drove out the American Indians
Catholics running roughshod over the Mayans and Aztecs
Stalin's form of Communism trying to stamp out religion in USSR

But then...these three instances involved coercion. I find it unlikely that some sort of atheist organisation could ever sneak into power; that it could somehow be a dominate force to be reckoned with the likes of the religious right.

I think the only way for atheism to become a dominate worldview in any religious country will take quite a long time. There are too many variables in this thought experiment.

Quote from: "Gawen"I think the only way for atheism to become a dominate worldview in any religious country will take quite a long time. There are too many variables in this thought experiment.

Do you, Gawen, live in a religious country?

Texas...*chucklin*

Quote from: "Gawen"Texas...*chucklin*

We ain't a religious country.  We are right and everyone ought take care to listen to how right we are and we've changed the school lessons to prove it.  ;)  

Thank you all for your inputs. I'm thinking over what has been written.

C'mon Tank...whatcha gotta say???

 Still thinking.

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "Tank"I would really like to get more input from theists on this question. Would you feel threatened in a secular world? What are your feelings about the apparent rise in athistic views and the ability of atheists to form groups on the internet?

Ask and ye shall receive!

BTW, wow... haven't seen so many biased viewpoints since I had breakfast with a bunch of born-agains...
I think you'll find quite a few intelligent theists, and a fair share of sub-par atheists.

I too have met a few intelligent theists but the watch word there appears to be few. On the other hand I have yet to meet a sub-par atheist, I really haven't. I have met a few that are anti-theist and bigoted but not dumb. But I haven't met who you have so obviously there are some sub-par atheists around.  

Quote from: "joeactor"Ok, so an "Atheist World" (was that the sequel to West World?)
I don't see it ever happening.

Neither do I, at least not for a long time after the Singularity, unless the robots are theists as they are in Battlestar Gallactica!

Quote from: "joeactor"Now, an Agnostic world?  That's possible.
For me, it's less about "Is there a god?" or "Is there no god?", and more about our comfort with being able to say "I don't know".

Hopefully a secular agnostic world with a tolerant attitude to the beliefs of the individual would be an ideal to aspire to.

Quote from: "joeactor"Faith, Belief, and Hope are a large part of being human.  The expression of them through religion is the flaw, IMHO.  Take a bit of time to think this through.  How much a part of your life is belief?

95% of life is belief based because I rarely have to cite evidence to support my position on a day to day basis. However my beliefs are generally based on facts as far as I can tell, what I consider to be fairy stories.

Quote from: "joeactor"If it were all about being rational and intelligent, we'd be SkyNet.

Humans won't lose their imagination, we get too much enjoyment from it.

Quote from: "joeactor"As for extremists... It only takes one nutjob with a bomb to take out a bunch of geniuses.
That's not rational.  It's not logical.  It's why, in some cases, the nutjobs win.  And why they won't go away.

Fair point.

Quote from: "joeactor"That's the skinny, now let's chew the fat!
JoeActor

Yep!

Boy, the first half of this thread was pretty self-congratulatory.  I've met plenty of smart theists, and dumb atheists.

As to what happens if and when atheists become a majority, I don't think too much will, because the transition will be supplied by the moderate theists.  Given that them, and their money, support the current fundies, that will diminish the resources that the fundies now lavish on TV shows and such here in America.

The reduction of propaganda will further undermine their powerbase.

Might the remainder turn to violence?  Sure.  But even that will erode their own basis, as we can then contrast their bombs against "turn the other cheek" etc -- a sort of theological judo.

Ok time to lay my cards on the table.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg8.imageshack.us%2Fimg8%2F1641%2Fcontinuume.jpg&hash=4bb834996c835ba8fc4be6a72ffcffbd80e0314a)

I think the battleground for hearts and minds is the 'Cultural Theist'. This is where I feel the bulk of humanity fall. They are (insert belief here) because that's what they were born into and surrounded by most of, if not all, of the time. They are the visible face of most religions. Information on the internet is undoubtedly working in favour of a rationalist world view simply because many cultural theists have never been exposed to alternative views.

The trouble is when the 'cultural theist' is exposed to alternative world views they can jump on of two ways, either towards a more agnostic world view or towards a strong theistic view. I would classify this as a person who has made an active choice to engage with a particular faith, they are not simply going with the flow of those around them.

So as the 'cultural theists' work out their world view the theistic world view becomes more concentrated as the 'cultural theists' evaporate away. This concentration worries me as the Radical and Fundamentalist theists have a ready recruiting ground in the Strong and Convinced theists.

At the moment the 'Cultural Theists' act as a buffer between non-belief and delusional belief which I would suggest would be Convinced theist and beyond, the Strong atheist is still in a state of explorations and is thus not a totally lost cause.

So if atheism erodes theism I see the Convinced theists and above becoming more and more marginalised, ridiculed and radicalised and we'll end up with a highly concentrated group of fundamentalist nut jobs to deal with.

Is my view valid?

I think the best we can realistically aspire to is a secularized world, with secularized governments, secularized legislation, etc.  However as it was well said before, the vast majority is still theist or live under theocracies, and here lies a great danger to the free world (I really don´t want to sound like Bush)... Islam is the fastest growing religion, and in my view Islam is not only a religion, but a political project.  The west must very wary of the advance of Islam.

THE GREATESTS HERESIES (Hillaire Belloc 1938):  "... it has always seemed to me posible, even probable, that there would be a resucitation of Islam, and that our children or grandsons will be witness to or participate in the renewed struggle between Western Civilization and its major and most ferosious opponent in the last thousand years.  The posibility of a new rise of Islam might seem fantacious, but this is only due to the fact that man have always been powerfully affected by the immediate past... I would venture to say that he is actually blinded by it.  Not so long ago, only about one hundred years before the Independece of the USA, Viennes was almost taken over by the ottoman imperial muslim armies, and saved by a pan-european christian army under the King of Poland, on a date that should be amongst the most famous of history:  September 11th 1683."