Happy Atheist Forum

QuoteExcerpts of an article written by non-Catholic Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman:

"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?

Do you know - the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today

But the press is vindictive and trying to totally denigrate in every way the Catholic Church in this country. They have blamed the disease of pedophilia on the Catholic Church, which is as irresponsible as blaming adultery on the institution of marriage.

Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed. Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

A study of American priests showed that most are happy in the priesthood and find it even better than they had expected, and that most, if given the choice, would choose to be priests again in face of all this obnoxious PR the church has been receiving.

The Catholic Church is bleeding from self-inflicted wounds. The agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a small number of wayward priests that have probably been totally weeded out by now.

Walk with your shoulders high and you head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States . Then remember what Jeremiah said: 'Stand by the roads, and look and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is and walk in it, and find rest for your souls'. Be proud to speak up for your faith with pride and reverence and learn what your Church does for all other religions.

 

I grew up Catholic. My grandfather, after my grandmother passed away, returned to the seminary and became a priest. For me, this whole child abuse problem breaks down this way:

I would imagine, without hard statistics to back this up, that the percentage of priests that abuse children is far less than the percentage of average people who abuse children. So for me, the issue isn't so much about the abuse, even though I can imagine some of these evil fucks using the threat of punishment from God to force "cooperation" from the children, but it's more about the cover up of the problem. That, I believe, is what is driving many Catholics away. It's what drove me away from the church, but not what led me to be an atheist.

Hismikeness

Quote from: "fdesilva"snip

Citation needed. That is laughable frankly.

Firstly, I don't for a second believe all the education claims, but even if I did (which I don't) and even if I believed the hospital claims, and even if I believed both of these things came with no strings, that would make no difference. Just because you give some small amount of money to some small number of people, does not make molesting kids all right. Then, pathetically, the author goes on the attack the protestant church, with figures I don't for one second believe are accurate (not that I am a great defender of the protestant church, but do you really think 38% admitted to naughtiness?), not only presenting figures which are dubious at best, but comparing people having "inappropriate sexual contact" which could mean as little as a slap on the arse, to paedophilia, very disingenuous.

While we are here, trying to downplay 1.7% paedophilia rate as small compared to others, 1.7% is massive in this context. Would you send your kids to a school where 1.7% of the teachers are paedophiles?

 Also, "totally weeded out by now"? Are you joking? the catholic church has endeavoured for decades to cover this stuff up, I doubt that all of a sudden they have cleaned house. More so than that, I think that paedophilic tendencies are an unavoidable consequence of the church doctrine, celibate old virgins telling others how to live their sex lives is not a recipe for success.

Who the hell is this non catholic Jew with such a hard on for the catholic church anyway? Why does he love the Catholics so much, yet seem to daemonise protestants? Even if I leave aside his motivations, where is he getting his numbers from?

fdesilva, can I surmise that you are a catholic from this? Also, another post where you just post a quote from an article with no discussion? What is the point in that? Are you even going to bother defending this?

Edit: UPDATE! original article here (http://fratres.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/redemption-comes-through-the-jews-jewish-businessman-sam-miller-whaps-anti-catholic-bias-in-news-media-full-text/). Published on a blog called Orates Fratres, a phrase used in Roman Mass. First seen in "the May-June issue of the Buckeye Bulletin". No sources, references or bibliographies are attached, I think it is safe to ignore everything he says, especially if you read the full article at the link, you can see the bias he has against protestants. This bias seems to stem from the fact that Catholics and Jews emigrated to to the USA at the same time, and were (as he sees it) mistreated by the resident protestants. He goes on to imply protestants are the modern version of the KKK.

Link (http://fratres.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/redemption-comes-through-the-jews-jewish-businessman-sam-miller-whaps-anti-catholic-bias-in-news-media-full-text/) to the full article.  It was apparently originally published in the Buckeye Bulletin, whatever that is.  A Goo gle search turned up this (http://www.ohiowea.org/buckeye_bulletin.php) and this (http://www.osuatl.com/bulletin.html) and this (http://www.nfbohio.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=32), among others.  However, it cannot be found in this (http://www.abyznewslinks.com/uniteoh.htm) rather extensive list of Ohio (the "Buckeye State") newspapers and media outlets... The article has been widely quoted and (big surprise here!) praised on various Catholic forums and sites, usually in the abbreviated form used by fdesilva.  No citations at all for the statistics the piece uses, which is another big surprise.  

A side note: Catholic education, so vaunted by Miller, is not wholly a positive element in society.  I know from personal experience that tender young minds can be badly warped by what occasionally goes on in Catholic schools.  I'm not talking about religious indoctrination, either.

EDIT: Ah, I see you beat me to it, SSY.  

Great minds think alike old boy.

Quote from: "SSY"Firstly, I don't for a second believe all the education claims, but even if I did (which I don't) and even if I believed the hospital claims,

Statistics
Source: http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur ... tics.shtml (http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-church-statistics.shtml)
Source2: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/ ... 09_058.asp (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_058.asp)

QuoteThere are 68,115,001 Catholics in the United States1 (22% of the U.S. population),
..........
Catholic Education11
•   Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767
•   Elementary Schools: 6,133 schools educating 1,609,387 students
•   High Schools: 1,341 schools educating 674,380 students
•   Colleges and Universities: 234 institutions educating 795,823 students
•   Non-residential Schools for Handicapped Persons: 66 schools educating 6,304 students
•   Public School Students Receiving Religious Education:
o   Elementary School students: 3,080,838
o   High School students: 722,599

Catholic Health Care12
•   Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients
•   Other Health Care Centers: 373 centers treated 6,703,167 patients
•   Specialized Homes: 1,643 assisted 936,900 residents
•   Residential Care of Children: 403 locations assisted 33,952 residents

I'm more interested in seeing the sources for these statistics:

QuoteMeanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

Uno - Pedophilia is not a disease.
Dos - I'm pretty damn sure it's more of a problem in Catholicism.
Tres - The "attack" on Catholicism is simply calling out a problem. Are you trying to sweep this whole scandal under the rug?

Btw- I agree that it would be better if the Catholics educated less children. Secular schools suck bad enough. Can't imagine how horrible the parochial ones are.

So, in lieu of actually defending your claims, you just pop in to post another link, the type of discourse you engage does not satiate my need for debate.

In addition to which, to back up your claims about awesome the Catholic church is, you post figures, FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?! Really?

I am a nice person, a very nice person in fact, so I will even indulge you this madness, and we can look at the statistics. The National centre for education statistics (whom I am slightly more inclined to believe) say that there are in fact 2.3 million catholic students, not 2.6, as the author of that article claims. So, even moving on from the inflation of figures, we have other issues to address, where is all that stuff about costs? Does not say anything about them? Nothing about grad entry rates, nothing about the colleges (I am also very sceptical of the utility of Christian education programs). So, posting these statistics to back you up, has shown that the only thing it even has a number for contradicts the original claim, and everything else is not mentioned or verified in any way.

Looking at the other statistics you posted, from the "United States Conference of Catholic Bishops", yes, Catholics, the most impartial people to cite when it comes to the merits of the Catholic church, I mean, it's not like they ever hide things or cover them up? Is it? So, let us look at these figures. Once again, it says 2.3 million in Catholic schools, not 2.6 as per the original claim, but moving swiftly on... The college numbers look good, 800,000 in catholic college (even better than the original claim), nothing about costs here either though, hmmm, seems very hard to back up those numbers. Maybe we should try the Hospital stuff? Well, for starters, the original guy said 637 hospitals, not 562, so we have another inflation of numbers there. The patient numbers here are interesting again, the original author claims 62 million, yet these bishops seem to think that 85 million get treated, so the original author, in a fit of modesty no doubt, actually downplayed all the good work the Catholics do, what a guy! So the first sets of stats, did not help you much at all, but the second set seems to portray the catholic church in a much better light, now, let's just check those references, shall we?

Quote1 The Official Catholic Directory 2009, P.J. Kenedy & Sons, New Providence, NJ. 2006
2 Ibid.
3 Ibid.
4 United States Conference of Catholic Bishops â€" Executive 2009
5 Ibid.
6 Ibid.
7 The Official Catholic Directory 2009, P.J. Kenedy & Sons, New Providence, NJ. 2006
8 Ibid.
9 Ibid.
10 Ibid.
11 Ibid.
12 Ibid.
13 Catholic Charties USA 2008 Annual Survey At A Glance

Hmmm, this is very curious, all those statistics, telling us how wonderful the catholic church is, and therefore meaning all the kids those priests fiddled with and then lied about don't matter, seem to be taken from the Catholic church itself, or this thing called lbid. What the fuck is lbid? I have no idea, the catholic church don't seem to want to let on either, very mysterious. Mystery is certainly a fun thing, but not when you are citing statistics to try and excuse molesting children.

So, the first set of impartial statistics don't agree with the original author, and the second set also don't agree, and are completely unverified anyway. In conclusion, I think the original author pulled these statistics from his ass, or at least some very unreliable source, and then you posted some random  statistics you found that pertain to roughly the same thing, but that don't back up his original argument at all.

This is me, unimpressed.

:/

Quote from: "fdesilva"There are 68,115,001 Catholics in the United States1 (22% of the U.S. population),
..........
Catholic Education11
•   Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767
•   Elementary Schools: 6,133 schools educating 1,609,387 students
•   High Schools: 1,341 schools educating 674,380 students
•   Colleges and Universities: 234 institutions educating 795,823 students
•   Non-residential Schools for Handicapped Persons: 66 schools educating 6,304 students
•   Public School Students Receiving Religious Education:
o   Elementary School students: 3,080,838
o   High School students: 722,599

Catholic Health Care12
•   Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients
•   Other Health Care Centers: 373 centers treated 6,703,167 patients
•   Specialized Homes: 1,643 assisted 936,900 residents
•   Residential Care of Children: 403 locations assisted 33,952 residents

Nice statistics... however since most of the people attending private Catholic schools are being paid for by the families, I don't see how this helps with what seemed to be your point that Catholics help out with education. With people paying for the schools, all it makes the Catholic church is a business. However, if your point is that the Catholic church is providing charitable educational services then you need to provide the statistics of how charitable the organization is, not how many people attend places that people pay for themselves. The same goes for health care services. I mean it sure is nice that an organization is willing to something in exchange for money but if you go by that logic, then Safeway, Fry's and Albertsons are probably the most charitable companies because they provide food to millions of people every day.

Quote from: "SSY"What the fuck is lbid?

Quote from: "Dictionary.com"ibid. definition

An abbreviation for ibidem, a Latin word meaning “in the same place.” It is used in footnotes and bibliographies to refer to a source cited in a previous entry.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ibid

Doesn't seem to help fdesilva's case at all.

Ah! Thank you, learn something new everyday. I was reading it as an L, so google could not help me.

One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf (http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS_child_maltreatment_2003.pdf)
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Quote from: "fdesilva"One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf (http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS_child_maltreatment_2003.pdf)
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

You are not answering any of the well constructed arguments against what you've posted. You've continued this trend over numerous threads. People are being far to patient with you in my opinion.

Quote from: "fdesilva"One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf (http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS_child_maltreatment_2003.pdf)
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Wow, just let me check something with you. Your argument is, that if catholic abuse of children were such a big problem, that the US government would include it in this specific report? Do you think that this masterful piece of deduction is strong enough to over-rule the claims of the thousands of people who have come forward about their abuse at the hands of the catholic church? Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

The thing I like most about this, is that I said "even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here", and you then tried to convince me that the catholic church did a load of good stuff, instead of trying to counter my arguments on a logical level, you just posted a load of links to dodgy statistics and no argument.

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "fdesilva"One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf (http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS_child_maltreatment_2003.pdf)
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Wow, just let me check something with you. Your argument is, that if catholic abuse of children were such a big problem, that the US government would include it in this specific report? Do you think that this masterful piece of deduction is strong enough to over-rule the claims of the thousands of people who have come forward about their abuse at the hands of the catholic church? Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

The thing I like most about this, is that I said "even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here", and you then tried to convince me that the catholic church did a load of good stuff, instead of trying to counter my arguments on a logical level, you just posted a load of links to dodgy statistics and no argument.

Quote from: "SSY"Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

No for the following reason, if you were to substitute the stats from
http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur (http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur) ... tics.shtml

Then the article with regards to its point about the good work done, will still be as meaningful.

With regards to possible inaccuracy of the stats provided by the Church, you can be sure, given the medias anti catholic agenda, it would make headlines like “Catholic bishops give fake statistics”
Given that there has been no such headlines, you can be sure of its accuracy.

Quote"even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here",

Most definitely yes. It is in the wrong. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

My answer is no, as if it did, the governments in all the different countries would shut it down.

Please note that Catholics are a community of sinners, coming together to try their best to become better.
They are on a journey, some make rapid progress, while others stagnate and even go backwards. So it would not surprise me, if some one told me, the greatest sinners in history were Catholics. It is there to welcome sinners, not to encourage them in sin, but to help them to become better people.

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "fdesilva"One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf (http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS_child_maltreatment_2003.pdf)
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Wow, just let me check something with you. Your argument is, that if catholic abuse of children were such a big problem, that the US government would include it in this specific report? Do you think that this masterful piece of deduction is strong enough to over-rule the claims of the thousands of people who have come forward about their abuse at the hands of the catholic church? Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

The thing I like most about this, is that I said "even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here", and you then tried to convince me that the catholic church did a load of good stuff, instead of trying to counter my arguments on a logical level, you just posted a load of links to dodgy statistics and no argument.

Quote from: "SSY"Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

No for the following reason, if you were to substitute the stats from
http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur (http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur) ... tics.shtml

Then the article with regards to its point about the good work done, will still be as meaningful.

With regards to possible inaccuracy of the stats provided by the Church, you can be sure, given the medias anti catholic agenda, it would make headlines like “Catholic bishops give fake statistics”
Given that there has been no such headlines, you can be sure of its accuracy.

Quote"even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here",

Most definitely yes. It is in the wrong. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

My answer is no, as if it did, the governments in all the different countries would shut it down.

Please note that Catholics are a community of sinners, coming together to try their best to become better.
They are on a journey, some make rapid progress, while others stagnate and even go backwards. So it would not surprise me, if some one told me, the greatest sinners in history were Catholics. It is there to welcome sinners, not to encourage them in sin, but to help them to become better people.

I do not accept the figures from the United conference of catholic bishops, I have seen no proof of their veracity. The first and third reference are a book, published by the catholic church, which I cannot get hold of. The second source the UCCB use, is themselves... The fourth is a self reporting survey where Catholic charities write in to say how awesome they are. Do you believe any of this? why should I believe it? Do you have any proof? Your assertion that if it were false, then people would find out and expose it, is laughable, absolutely desirable and completely contrary to spirit of academic and investigative enquiry.

Then the conversation jerks wildly.

Quote. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

What? Since when? where have you said that before? Is it a case of no one swallowing your rubbish and you trying to direct the thread in another direction to try and save face? This problem is a particularly intractable one, but I would say there is certainly an argument that the catholic church is indeed an atmosphere conducive to abuse of children, as evidenced by the many cases of institutionalized abuse, and the associated cover ups by people higher up, and enabling the priests to go on abusing. This however is not the reason I originally entered this thread.

To be honest, your repeated assertion that "well, if the church were so bad, the US government would do something about it" is pathetic; it is a shining example of anti-intellectualism, completely bereft of logic and integrity. Can you think of nothing where despite a movement being bad, the government has done little to stop it?

QuoteThis should not come as surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Oh yeah, they took real good care of people during the Inquisition. In the same way the Mafia takes care of people. Btw if it's the government's job to solve the problem, and certain priests within Catholicism are the problem, then.... ta-da!

Quote from: "fdesilva"Please note that Catholics are a community of sinners, coming together to try their best to become better.
They are on a journey, some make rapid progress, while others stagnate and even go backwards. So it would not surprise me, if some one told me, the greatest sinners in history were Catholics. It is there to welcome sinners, not to encourage them in sin, but to help them to become better people.

I don't know man, it seems like you're just making excuses for child molesters.  Would you be willing to tell the victim of this kind of abuse that their priest was trying to do their best, but hey, we're all sinners?  I would argue that most everyone is 'doing their best' in the same way you describe Catholics doing their best, so this comment is pretty worthless besides being some lame excuse for horrible behavior.  And don't kid yourself, willingly covering up abuse, especially when in a position of influence and power, is horrible, inexcusable behavior.

Quote from: "fdesilva"With regards to possible inaccuracy of the stats provided by the Church, you can be sure, given the medias anti catholic agenda, it would make headlines like “Catholic bishops give fake statistics”
Given that there has been no such headlines, you can be sure of its accuracy.

Hahaha, good one.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Most definitely yes. It is in the wrong. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

I think that is shown when people fairly high up in the church support covering it up and not even kicking the people, who committed the crimes, out of their church. That is a very clearly conducive environment for the people to continue committing the acts because; they are protected by the church, hidden by the church and not punished by the church.

Quote from: "fdesilva"My answer is no, as if it did, the governments in all the different countries would shut it down.

Faulty if/then logic. Surely if the Catholic church just went around torturing and killing people just by accusing them of heresy, then the governments would stop that right? The thing you seem to be missing here is that religion is given special treatment like dealing with 3 year olds and Santa Claus: you know Santa isn't real, but if you tell them the truth they will cry.

Anyway, the statistics you cited are not how much the church provides charitably, but how much goes through the places the church owns. Example: Catholic schools are not free, people pay for their children to attend, so that just makes it a business, not charitable. To show how charitable the church is you need to provide things like how many people the Catholic church helped out by paying/providing for their education of medical care. Otherwise, by your logic secular hospitals are a million times more charitable because they treat billions of people.

I actually appreciate your attempt to give some more or less credible sources for some of the statistics thrown out by Miller in his speech/article, fdesilva.  Whatever the exact numbers, I for one am willing to stipulate that the Catholic church does run educational and medical institutions, and that it also does charitable work.  On the other hand, my personal interest was piqued by the numbers given in the below paragraph from Miller:

 

Quote from: "Sam Miller"Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed. Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

Some of this seemed dubious, to put it mildly.  And in fact, even The Orate Fratres site has had a question about Miller's accuracy (http://fratres.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/if-i-were-an-protestant-minister-sam-millers-numbers-wrong/).  I've done a quick search for a possible source for these statistics, and I have not met with success so far, but when I have time, maybe I'll do more looking.  I think that it's quite possible that Miller has made some "mistakes" in the above quoted paragraph.  Looking at the article as a whole, I find it unconvincing-- a poor attempt at rhetoric-- "The Catholic church is no worse than other denominations when it comes to hanky panky, and all the good it does in the world more than makes up for the bad stuff anyway." Fatuous, flim-flamming drivel, or in good old Anglo-Saxon: bullshit.

"The Catholic church is a force for good in the world," an intelligence² debate from the BBC:

 [youtube:suifbunx]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kuzYwzGoXw[/youtube:suifbunx]

Quote from: "Recusant"I actually appreciate your attempt to give some more or less credible sources for some of the statistics thrown out by Miller in his speech/article, fdesilva.  Whatever the exact numbers, I for one am willing to stipulate that the Catholic church does run educational and medical institutions, and that it also does charitable work.  On the other hand, my personal interest was piqued by the numbers given in the below paragraph from Miller:

 

Quote from: "Sam Miller"Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed. Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

Some of this seemed dubious, to put it mildly.  And in fact, even The Orate Fratres site has had a question about Miller's accuracy (http://fratres.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/if-i-were-an-protestant-minister-sam-millers-numbers-wrong/).  I've done a quick search for a possible source for these statistics, and I have not met with success so far, but when I have time, maybe I'll do more looking.  I think that it's quite possible that Miller has made some "mistakes" in the above quoted paragraph.  Looking at the article as a whole, I find it unconvincing-- a poor attempt at rhetoric-- "The Catholic church is no worse than other denominations when it comes to hanky panky, and all the good it does in the world more than makes up for the bad stuff anyway." Fatuous, flim-flamming drivel, or in good old Anglo-Saxon: bullshit.

"The Catholic church is a force for good in the world," an intelligence² debate from the BBC:

It is not debateable that the catholic church is a force for good for the following reason.
Consider the population of Catholics in the world, That’s  the group of people that profess to be catholic and who contribute to the upkeep of its many charitable works (as stipulated in those statistics).
Now ask each and every one of them, “Do you intend to be a force of good in the world?”
What percentage do you think will say yes? I put it to you that most people(independent of catholic or not) asked that question would say yes.
So then the catholic church is a tangible force of good in the world, as made evident by the many charitable institutes run by them and by the expressed intent of all its members.

Here is another article of interest
http://paulseaman.eu/2010/03/in-defence ... eputation/ (http://paulseaman.eu/2010/03/in-defence-of-the-catholic-churchs-reputation/)

Quote from: "fdesilva"It is not debateable that the catholic church is a force for good for the following reason.

It's always debatable.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Consider the population of Catholics in the world, That’s  the group of people that profess to be catholic and who contribute to the upkeep of its many charitable works (as stipulated in those statistics).
Now ask each and every one of them, “Do you intend to be a force of good in the world?”
What percentage do you think will say yes? I put it to you that most people(independent of catholic or not) asked that question would say yes.

So the Catholic church is no better than people that aren't Catholic... what is your point?

Quote from: "fdesilva"So then the catholic church is a tangible force of good in the world, as made evident by the many charitable institutes run by them and by the expressed intent of all its members.

You still haven't shown statistic that shows how charitable the Catholic church is, you have only shown things like: "Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients" and "Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767"... while this could be useful if ever a statistic about the charity the Catholic church comes up, but in themselves, those statistics are useless for showing the charity of the Catholic church.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Here is another article of interest
http://paulseaman.eu/2010/03/in-defence ... eputation/ (http://paulseaman.eu/2010/03/in-defence-of-the-catholic-churchs-reputation/)

That's not a defense of the Catholic church, it's just showing that many other places were bad also. This article is missing the point. We don't treat a killer better just because other people are killing... It reminds me of what children say to their parents when they're in trouble or want to be allowed to do something, "well they're doing it!" Does that really fly with your children? "Well sure, since your friends are smoking crack you go right ahead, son."

So Catholics are really, really good people who want to be a positive force in the world. Great. Then it follows that they should have no problem exposing those (particularly their own priests, etc.) who abuse children, along with those who aid and abet them (ie. enable, ie. cover up), regardless of how high up the chain they have to go, and turn them over the the appropriate authorities to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. End of story.

Quote from: "Davin"Nice statistics... however since most of the people attending private Catholic schools are being paid for by the families, I don't see how this helps with what seemed to be your point that Catholics help out with education. With people paying for the schools, all it makes the Catholic church is a business. However, if your point is that the Catholic church is providing charitable educational services then you need to provide the statistics of how charitable the organization is, not how many people attend places that people pay for themselves. The same goes for health care services. I mean it sure is nice that an organization is willing to something in exchange for money but if you go by that logic, then Safeway, Fry's and Albertsons are probably the most charitable companies because they provide food to millions of people every day
.......

You still haven't shown statistic that shows how charitable the Catholic church is, you have only shown things like: "Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients" and "Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767"... while this could be useful if ever a statistic about the charity the Catholic church comes up, but in themselves, those statistics are useless for showing the charity of the Catholic church.

It follows from the stats for the reasons given below.
In nearly every country of the world a government is appointed by the people of the country. The government based on the opinion of the people defines,  a class of organization as charitable. That is they do not take any profit. Under this classification, all the catholic run places are charitable. One of the differences between a health care system that is non profit and one that is not is that in the case of the former it can take no profit, further the cost of the care given, in most cases even when paid is further subsidized by charitable donors. Also in the case of a charitable organization all accounts need to be transparent.
Now if there were no organization that were non-profit then the competition faced, by the for profit businesses, will be vastly reduced and will lead to a price hike. Further in nearly all catholic institutes in the case of study full scholarships are given to students that cannot afford it. In the same applies to medical care by way of subsidy.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Also in the case of a charitable organization all accounts need to be transparent.

Does the catholic church have 501c3 status?  If not then they do not have to provide detailed accounts of their finances nor do they have to operate as a non-profit business.

Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

Not to mention that I don't care how a government defines a charitable organization; it doesn't matter when discussing ethics and is a red herring.

Here is an article with the same stats as the article in question
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 778004.htm (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_15/b3778004.htm)
also of interest
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html)

http://www.zenit.org/article-22024?l=english (http://www.zenit.org/article-22024?l=english)

Quote from: "Whitney"Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

How do you intend to do charity if your in the red?

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote from: "Whitney"Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

How do you intend to do charity if your in the red?

They should be in neither the black or the red when all is balanced out.

Do you think fancy clothing and high end living quarters is a charitable expense?

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote from: "Whitney"Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

How do you intend to do charity if your in the red?

They should be in neither the black or the red when all is balanced out.

Do you think fancy clothing and high end living quarters is a charitable expense?

If you go to a catholic service on a sunday, you would find that there is 2 collection. One collection is for the upkeep of the church (fancy cloths, food for cleargy,buidings etc) and the 2nd for the other charities. Now if the people giving this money don't have a problem with it why should any one else?

You are the one trying to argue that the catholic church is such a great charity that it makes up for a few (a lot) pedophilia charges.....


I don't care what people do with their own money; I do care about corrupt organizations that try to pretend they are moral authorities.

Here's an interesting and informative look at the Catholic church by Louis CK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
(link NSFW!)

Quote from: "fdesilva"It follows from the stats for the reasons given below.
In nearly every country of the world a government is appointed by the people of the country. The government based on the opinion of the people defines, a class of organization as charitable. That is they do not take any profit. Under this classification, all the catholic run places are charitable.

...

Quote from: "fdesilva"One collection is for the upkeep of the church (fancy cloths, food for cleargy,buidings etc)

Yes very charitable those fancy clothes.

Quote from: "fdesilva"One of the differences between a health care system that is non profit and one that is not is that in the case of the former it can take no profit, further the cost of the care given, in most cases even when paid is further subsidized by charitable donors. Also in the case of a charitable organization all accounts need to be transparent.

So by your definition, all an organization needs to do to be considered charitable by you is not take a profit? So failing companies that make their books public are charitable?

Quote from: "fdesilva"Now if there were no organization that were non-profit then the competition faced, by the for profit businesses, will be vastly reduced and will lead to a price hike.

That is so wrong and way off topic.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Further in nearly all catholic institutes in the case of study full scholarships are given to students that cannot afford it. In the same applies to medical care by way of subsidy.

How many full scholarships? How much subsidy? In short, provide some evidence to show how "charitable" the organization is. Do they help out one student out of the 2 million a year in their schools or do they help out 1% of the students?

Oh wait! They can just write themselves some indulgences and then all is well again.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Now if the people giving this money don't have a problem with it why should any one else?

You're missing the point. The point was they will only donate a rag to wipe your ass so long as they have a golden toilet seat. That doesn't make them the best "charity".

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "fdesilva"It follows from the stats for the reasons given below.
In nearly every country of the world a government is appointed by the people of the country. The government based on the opinion of the people defines, a class of organization as charitable. That is they do not take any profit. Under this classification, all the catholic run places are charitable.

...

Quote from: "fdesilva"One collection is for the upkeep of the church (fancy cloths, food for cleargy,buidings etc)

Yes very charitable those fancy clothes.

Quote from: "fdesilva"One of the differences between a health care system that is non profit and one that is not is that in the case of the former it can take no profit, further the cost of the care given, in most cases even when paid is further subsidized by charitable donors. Also in the case of a charitable organization all accounts need to be transparent.

So by your definition, all an organization needs to do to be considered charitable by you is not take a profit? So failing companies that make their books public are charitable?

Quote from: "fdesilva"Now if there were no organization that were non-profit then the competition faced, by the for profit businesses, will be vastly reduced and will lead to a price hike.

That is so wrong and way off topic.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Further in nearly all catholic institutes in the case of study full scholarships are given to students that cannot afford it. In the same applies to medical care by way of subsidy.

How many full scholarships? How much subsidy? In short, provide some evidence to show how "charitable" the organization is. Do they help out one student out of the 2 million a year in their schools or do they help out 1% of the students?

I'llsee if I can find some info, However for now this might interest you
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2111966 (http://www.jstor.org/pss/2111966)
Here is more
from  http://www.ncea.org/news/AnnualDataReport.asp (http://www.ncea.org/news/AnnualDataReport.asp)

QuoteTuition and Costs
 
Tuition fees paid by families constitute a portion of the actual per pupil expenses.  The average per pupil tuition in elementary schools is $3,383 which is approximately 62.2 % of actual costs per pupil of $5,436.  About 93% of elementary schools provide some form of tuition assistance.  
 
The secondary mean freshman tuition is $8,182 which is approximately 80.0% of actual costs per pupil of $10,228.  About 97% of secondary schools provide some form of tuition assistance.
 
The difference between the per pupil cost and the tuition charged is obtained in many ways, primarily through direct subsidy from parish, diocesan or religious congregation resources and from multi-faceted development programs and fund-raising activities.
 
EXHIBIT 24
Average Tuition and Per Pupil Costs
Elementary
Mean parish school tuition:              $3,383.              Per pupil cost:  $5,436.
 
Secondary
Mean freshman tuition:                    $8,182              Per pupil cost:  $10,228
 
The average public school per pupil cost of $9,683, as reported by the National Center for Education Statistics, includes both elementary and secondary schools. (On average, secondary school costs are higher than elementary, but are not reported separately.)
Based on the public school cost, Catholic schools provide a 20.5 billion dollars a year savings for the nation.

That's still not charity.  A company may save the nation a certain amount of money - that doesn't make them a charity.  By your logic, Microsoft for instance would be considered a charity if they offered to pay for a certain percentage of school costs that might otherwise be paid for by tax money.  That can't actually be your argument, right?  

Regardless, it certainly doesn't somehow cancel out the church covering up rampant pedophilia.

Quote from: "fdesilva"I'llsee if I can find some info, However for now this might interest you

Hmm, I guess I will look over those links... meanwhile look at these random links while I find the data that supports my argument AFTER I stated my conclusion....

Dancing Waffles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGu9yxdbFio)

Pope May Eat Frogs (http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-02-03/Who_ate_all_the_frogs_.html)

The Pope Forgives the Molested Children (http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-forgives-molested-children,101/)

Has the Vatican Been Molesting Children Since it Began? (http://www.remnantofgod.org/rccsex.htm)

Enjoy the random links that also have nothing to do with what we were talking about. The problem here is that instead of researching the data to come to a conclusion, you've come to a conclusion and are now trying to find the data... that matches your conclusion. It is known as confirmation bias, and while this may work wonders for religion, it's worthless to rationally minded people.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "fdesilva"I'llsee if I can find some info, However for now this might interest you

Hmm, I guess I will look over those links... meanwhile look at these random links while I find the data that supports my argument AFTER I stated my conclusion....

Dancing Waffles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGu9yxdbFio)

Pope May Eat Frogs (http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-02-03/Who_ate_all_the_frogs_.html)

The Pope Forgives the Molested Children (http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-forgives-molested-children,101/)

Has the Vatican Been Molesting Children Since it Began? (http://www.remnantofgod.org/rccsex.htm)

Enjoy the random links that also have nothing to do with what we were talking about. The problem here is that instead of researching the data to come to a conclusion, you've come to a conclusion and are now trying to find the data... that matches your conclusion. It is known as confirmation bias, and while this may work wonders for religion, it's worthless to rationally minded people.

This thread is not about any conclusion from me. Its about a point of view in an article by a Mr Miller. Since I posted it here, I am helping out with your request,  to verify the data in that article via another source.  

The wealth of the Catholic Church is enormous. I you look where that money came from and what the Church does with it, the Church should in fact stand in a corner and feel very ashamed of itself. Billions of dollars are pumped into that financial institution every year and it is extremely difficult to find out where all the money goes. Known is that only a few crumbs of it is spent on charity and that most of the money disappears in the pockets of the Church themselves.

Here in Germany alone, the catholic and protestant churches receive 14 billion Euro (19 billion dollar) per year from the government (thru church taxes, grants, etc.).  Interesting enough most schools, kindergartens, old folks homes, hospitals, etc.  that call themselves Catholic or Protestant receive only 6% of their finances from the church, the remaining money comes straight out of the taxpayer's pocket. So, where does all the money go? Well that has been made very difficult by the church themselves, because they keep shifting around funds from one place to another. In that respect they are just as evil as the Mafia or Enron. Clear is that it pays off to be a bishop or cardinal in a German Church. They are indeed very well paid (EUR 11,000 net per month), don't pay any taxes, have free lodging and many other privileges.

To me the Catholic Church is an immoral, corporate organization, who only want to take care of themselves and don't give a shit about others. Sure, there are people in that organization that are sociable, charitable and good people, but the Church itself as an institution is evil.

Quote from: "fdesilva"One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.

Quote from: "fdesilva"With regards to possible inaccuracy of the stats provided by the Church, you can be sure, given the medias anti catholic agenda, it would make headlines like “Catholic bishops give fake statistics”
Given that there has been no such headlines, you can be sure of its accuracy.

Quote from: "fdesilva"It is not debateable that the catholic church is a force for good for the following reason.
Consider the population of Catholics in the world, That’s the group of people that profess to be catholic and who contribute to the upkeep of its many charitable works (as stipulated in those statistics).
Now ask each and every one of them, “Do you intend to be a force of good in the world?”
What percentage do you think will say yes? I put it to you that most people(independent of catholic or not) asked that question would say yes.
So then the catholic church is a tangible force of good in the world, as made evident by the many charitable institutes run by them and by the expressed intent of all its members.

If I believed in the soul, I'd say that a tiny part of mine died reading these statements, but you get the point.  I noticed you like links, so here's one for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies

Its nice to compare private vs. public, apart from the crimes committed by the private sectors. In this case the Catholics. A crime is a crime and no good deeds undo the crime. What I see is the unjust place on public schools children, which is just cause they are public they are somehow led away and have the highest drop-out rate. While the private have the highest grad-go-on-to-college-and-beyond. But, this is about a crime not about fairness.

Quote from: "fdesilva"This thread is not about any conclusion from me. Its about a point of view in an article by a Mr Miller. Since I posted it here, I am helping out with your request, )

HAF is not link dumping site, if you post something that isn't news be prepared to defend it as your position or provide a counter to why you think the link content is incorrect.

In short, we have a put up or shutup policy.

Quote from: "Tom62"..
Here in Germany alone, the catholic and protestant churches receive 14 billion Euro (19 billion dollar) per year from the government (thru church taxes, grants, etc.).  Interesting enough most schools, kindergartens, old folks homes, hospitals, etc.  that call themselves Catholic or Protestant receive only 6% of their finances from the church, the remaining money comes straight out of the taxpayer's pocket. .

All of that church tax is from the members of the Church. A person has the freedom to leave the church, in which case they do not pay it. The Government collects this tax, for a fee. So the tax is not government money, but the money of the commumity of believers in the church, which they give to the church freely.
As I said before on this thread, while it is more formalised in Germany, its no different to other countries where
If you go to a catholic service on a sunday, you would find that there is 2 collection. One collection is for the upkeep of the church (fancy cloths, food for cleargy,buidings etc) and the 2nd for the other charities. Now if the people giving this money don't have a problem with it why should any one else?"
Please read the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax)

QuoteThe church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not member of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends. Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it.

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote[...]Some communities refuse to administer [...]burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it.

Now that is charity right there!

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote[...]Some communities refuse to administer [...]burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it.

Now that is charity right there!

Its talking of many different communities, that does not nessarally mean the "some community" is the catholic church. Further if the person can afford this expences but wants to get it free, giving such a person a free ride will not be charity. If on the other hand they cannot afford it, then charitable organizations will help out.

The whole catholic charity issue =
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmediationchannel.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F11%2Fred_herring.jpg&hash=f34ce3fd0f9c4b4e03b579896ad083c15914f295)
http://mediationchannel.com/2009/11/16/fallacious-argument-of-the-month-in-pursuit-of-the-red-herring/

IOW, it doesn't matter in the least. It has no bearing whatsoever on the argument over the question posed by the author of the article quoted in th OP:

Quote from: "non-Catholic Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?

Acceptable answers:

They don't
It sells papers
Journalists hate catholicism
Misleading question; it isn't a vendetta, it's real news
All journalists are secretly in league with the devil
Because thousands of cases of sexual abuse of children by deranged monsters calling themselves spiritual leaders have been made public after decades (at least) of systematic coverups by catholic leadership going all the way to the pope

All of those answers require cited support by verifiable facts.

Everything else on the subject is just a smokescreen.

Quote from: "elliebean"The whole catholic charity issue =
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmediationchannel.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F11%2Fred_herring.jpg&hash=f34ce3fd0f9c4b4e03b579896ad083c15914f295)
http://mediationchannel.com/2009/11/16/fallacious-argument-of-the-month-in-pursuit-of-the-red-herring/

IOW, it doesn't matter in the least. It has no bearing whatsoever on the argument over the question posed by the author of the article quoted in th OP:

Quote from: "non-Catholic Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?

Acceptable answers:

They don't
It sells papers
Journalists hate catholicism
Misleading question; it isn't a vendetta, it's real news
All journalists are secretly in league with the devil
Because thousands of cases of sexual abuse of children by deranged monsters calling themselves spiritual leaders have been made public after decades (at least) of systematic coverups by catholic leadership going all the way to the pope

All of those answers require cited support by verifiable facts.

Everything else on the subject is just a smokescreen.

Yes I fully agree, as you said before

Quote from: "elliebean"So Catholics are really, really good people who want to be a positive force in the world. Great. Then it follows that they should have no problem exposing those (particularly their own priests, etc.) who abuse children, along with those who aid and abet them (ie. enable, ie. cover up), regardless of how high up the chain they have to go, and turn them over the the appropriate authorities to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. End of story.

Except for the complimentry bit "realy realy good"  I totally agree with the rest.
However the red herring is not just from me, it is in response  to
statements such as

Quote from: "Tom62"To me the Catholic Church is an immoral, corporate organization, who only want to take care of themselves and don't give a shit about others. Sure, there are people in that organization that are sociable, charitable and good people, but the Church itself as an institution is evil.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"That's still not charity.  A company may save the nation a certain amount of money - that doesn't make them a charity.  By your logic, Microsoft for instance would be considered a charity if they offered to pay for a certain percentage of school costs that might otherwise be paid for by tax money.  That can't actually be your argument, right?  

Regardless, it certainly doesn't somehow cancel out the church covering up rampant pedophilia.

Depending on what the company tax is only that percentage can be taken as tax dollers. For example if microsoft pays $1000 to a school, and the company tax is 35% then $350 is from the government and $650 from the pockets of Microsoft. As such it is still charity.

Quote from: "non-Catholic Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?

Here is a link: This is one of the problems (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/world/europe/25vatican.html), not only did the Church know about this guy sexually abusing children, but the church didn't do anything about it. So why "does the media have a vendetta on the Catholic church?" Maybe because the Catholic church knew Murphy was abusing children and didn't do anything about it. I've looked, there is not a single case where an organization as big as the Catholic church knew one of the people under it's employ was sexually abusing children and didn't do anything about it. So in order to even say that the media has some kind of vendetta against the Catholic church, one would need to provide something to show that there is in fact a vendetta. Either by showing a big organization doing the same thing while the media did nothing or the media only covers bad things about the catholic church. (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/51336478.html?dids=51336478:51336478&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Mar+21%2C+2000&author=R.+Jeffrey+Smith&pub=The+Washington+Post&desc=Pope+Talks+of+%27Lasting+Peace%27+in+Mideast%3B+John+Paul+Begins+Holy+Land+Visit+At+Biblical+Site&pqatl=google)

The existence of the media reporting child molesters who aren't Catholic priests would also provide more evidence that the media doesn't have a vendetta against the Catholic church:
Child Molester Covered in the Media (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-29-serial-molester_x.htm)
I think we all remember Michael Jackson's trials (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103659,00.html)
1 (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1076710.html),2 (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-106616370.html), 3 (http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_14663782?nclick_check=1), 4 (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/64485153.html?dids=64485153:64485153&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jul+17%2C+1985&author=JAMES+QUINN&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+%28pre-1997+Fulltext%29&desc=Child+Molester+in+Protective+Custody+After+Suicide+Attempt&pqatl=google), 5 (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=FW&s_site=fortwayne&p_multi=FW&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=12D5E024047D9CC8&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM), 6 (http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/18/991169/admitted-child-molester-gets-10.html), 7 (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14664360)

So really I don't see the media really taking it out on the Catholic church, at least not as much as some other news items. I see no vendetta or unfair coverage.

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"That's still not charity.  A company may save the nation a certain amount of money - that doesn't make them a charity.  By your logic, Microsoft for instance would be considered a charity if they offered to pay for a certain percentage of school costs that might otherwise be paid for by tax money.  That can't actually be your argument, right?  

Regardless, it certainly doesn't somehow cancel out the church covering up rampant pedophilia.

Depending on what the company tax is only that percentage can be taken as tax dollers. For example if microsoft pays $1000 to a school, and the company tax is 35% then $350 is from the government and $650 from the pockets of Microsoft. As such it is still charity.

...?

Can someone else explain what just happened here?  Does this conversation keep shifting focus to where fdesilva's responses seem to be arguing against or for something unrelated to what was initially said or am I alone in being utterly confused again?

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"That's still not charity.  A company may save the nation a certain amount of money - that doesn't make them a charity.  By your logic, Microsoft for instance would be considered a charity if they offered to pay for a certain percentage of school costs that might otherwise be paid for by tax money.  That can't actually be your argument, right?  

Regardless, it certainly doesn't somehow cancel out the church covering up rampant pedophilia.

Depending on what the company tax is only that percentage can be taken as tax dollers. For example if microsoft pays $1000 to a school, and the company tax is 35% then $350 is from the government and $650 from the pockets of Microsoft. As such it is still charity.

Please try to formulate coherent sentences and not go along rabbit trails when posting.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"That's still not charity.  A company may save the nation a certain amount of money - that doesn't make them a charity.  By your logic, Microsoft for instance would be considered a charity if they offered to pay for a certain percentage of school costs that might otherwise be paid for by tax money.  That can't actually be your argument, right?  

Regardless, it certainly doesn't somehow cancel out the church covering up rampant pedophilia.

On the issue of the catholic church charity: The catholic church is a charity because all the work it does, is funded by donors.
It's charity, does not cancel out the pedophilia and the other bad done by some of its members.

Charitable acts by a company does not make it a charity. This includes Religion Inc. Although, granted, they can establish one on the side. But does the Catholic church even have something like that? Don't you just tithe and they divide it however they please?

Quote from: "fdesilva"The catholic church is a charity because all the work it does, is funded by donors.

That would make it a charity case; not necessarily charitable.

If I could convince 20 people to each donate 20 grand a year to me and I survived on that money that would not automatically make the actions I did while using donated money charitable.  I could however convince the government that I am a church leader of the newly founded Church of Whitney and not have to pay taxes on that money...it's very easy to get church status, you just declare it.

Since we're "link-happy": http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/next_on_the_docket_nun-rapers.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+scienceblogs%2Fpharyngula+%28Pharyngula%29&utm_content=Twitter
It's not just children many Catholic priests have been abusing.

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote from: "Tom62"..
Here in Germany alone, the catholic and protestant churches receive 14 billion Euro (19 billion dollar) per year from the government (thru church taxes, grants, etc.).  Interesting enough most schools, kindergartens, old folks homes, hospitals, etc.  that call themselves Catholic or Protestant receive only 6% of their finances from the church, the remaining money comes straight out of the taxpayer's pocket. .

All of that church tax is from the members of the Church. A person has the freedom to leave the church, in which case they do not pay it. The Government collects this tax, for a fee. So the tax is not government money, but the money of the commumity of believers in the church, which they give to the church freely.
As I said before on this thread, while it is more formalised in Germany, its no different to other countries where
If you go to a catholic service on a sunday, you would find that there is 2 collection. One collection is for the upkeep of the church (fancy cloths, food for cleargy,buidings etc) and the 2nd for the other charities. Now if the people giving this money don't have a problem with it why should any one else?"
Please read the following

[/quote]
From the 14 billion Euro that the German churches receive every year, only 3,5 billion comes from church taxes. The remaining 10,5 billion is paid by the State. That amount doesn't even include the grants and subventions that the churches receive for "their" social work. I don't mind that people pay their church taxes. With that money the churches should be able to live comfortably. What I find offending is that the churches gets loads of additional money that doesn't come from the church goers, but from the entire community. Even if you are an atheist, a Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim, your taxpayer's money goes to the Christian churches and the amount that you pay is twice as high as the official church tax.

The "Jewish" Sam Miller who Catholics love to spam (defending the Catholic Church) is a liar and joke.

Sam Miller made up totally false figures in his speech (and admitted it later): -

“Now let me give you some figures that you as Catholics should know and remember. For example, research by Richard Blackman at Fuller Theological Seminary shows that 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact. In a 1990 study by the United Methodist Church, 41.8% of clergywomen reported unwanted sexual behavior by a colleague; 17% of laywomen said that their own pastors had sexually harassed them. Phillip Jenkins concludes in his book “Pedophiles and Priests” that while 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia, 10% of Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia.“

The REAL figures are 5.4% (http://www.bishop-accountability.org (http://www.bishop-accountability.org)) of Catholic Priests and a fraction of one per cent of Methodists.

He later apologized when questioned.

It also turns out that Sam Miller is Jewish by blood but is a Christian who has donated to a number of Christian Causes including the Salvation Army. Not one penny has he given to any Catholic charity or cause.

He is a publicity hound who made up all the facts and figures in his speech.

None are factual.

Typical of Catholic Smoke and Mirror con tricks.