Happy Atheist Forum

Hello!

One of the most popular arguements by Christians in support of their
faith is the existence and origin of our 'Moral Compass'.  I'll have
to be honest and state that this is a logical arguement for Christians
and it is one of the most compelling which I have read.  I will
substitute the acronymn MC for the rest of my post(s) as I have
already stated what it refers to and since it's a popular term in
these ongoing debates.


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Moral Compass
Part of Speech:   n
Definition:   anything which serves to guide a person's decisions
based on morals or virtues
Example:   Hopefully, the lawyer has a moral compass.
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moral+compass (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moral+compass)


The typical Christian stance on the MC:


The opinion of Christians is that it's existence and purpose denotes
our ability to distinguish right from wrong, and that the core rules
of this device indicates that we are meant to follow Christianity
since they are what they believe are good (or right).  The appended
arguement is that the origin of this had to have been designed by God,
which is the core of Christianity.

They usually argue their opinion that it's so intricate and refined that it
points to Intelligent Design or Creationism. However, an Atheist is actually
humble enough to accept this as an unknown until it has been proven as
blindly accepting an unproven answer is willful arrogance which keeps
the actual truth from being discovered.


An Atheist's stance on the MC:


My Atheistic opinion of it's origin and function is that it has always
existed in living forms, and has constantly been evolving over a very
long coarse of time until we have it instilled in us at it's most
refined form.  Many Atheists say that it's the law of Natural
Selection, but I don't like the outdated term in being applied to
humans which have the ability to reason.


In this more lengthy description of my opinion I will try to explain
my stance on the matter by announcing well known, universal truths to
back up my claim.  I don't want to turn this into a debate, and I want
everyone to see why I've come to this conclusion by utilizing what we
know and can see every day.


I will start with the smallest thing I have seen and observed as both
a Christian and now as an Atheist.  Ants are very small, and do not
have the obligation or choice to have to submit to a religion.  I
think we can both agree that they collectively do what's best for
their nest in order to survive and flourish, can't we?  If you watch a
mound for any length of time I think you will find that their 'crime'
rate is particularly low, and comparable to human societies.


A mothering bird will bring food back for her hatchling without any
moral obligations.  She doesn't question why she has to do this, but
if she doesn't the hatchling will certainly die.  The hatchling's
mother will even give her chick the ol' boot when it is old enough to
become independent, but she doesn't have another family close enough
to use as an example.  Is there a Christian here who would disagree
with this?


A school of pirhannas can devour a calf in less than 20 minutes, but
they never bite each other.  Is it because of rules, or is it because
their minds know that it's detrimental to their survival?  I know this
is a tired metaphor, but it is certainly relevant to my arguement.
The funny thing is that I make an analogy of pirhannas and Christians
to humor my friends, but I will refrain from posting it here for the
sake of preserving my internet integrity!


How does this relate to morals?


Could morals be our instilled law which, in practice, helps us to
preserve our existence, and could our ability to reason be how we can
improve on it?  I believe that our morals are simply inherent laws
that protect us from ourselves, and make us more likely to procreate
(no pun).  I don't see enough logical difference between us and lesser
forms of life to honestly conclude that we are more worthy of
something such as a divine connection.  I think that a majority of
humans are wasting so much time and potential by believing these
preconcieved notions that the afterlife is what matters while
neglecting what they really have and can do today.


Thanks

I am of the opinion that the conscience dictates right and wrong in a human and can be explained by evolutionary psychology in the same way that memory is a very real facet of the brain function and can be explained through science. In the scope of things, we know very little about our own brains. However as research continues to bring us new developments the religious explanation seems more and more like yet another simple solution which was created at a time when people knew almost nothing and needed to create supernatural explanations for very simple natural phenomenon.

Thanks!

I'd love to expand on this, but I'm trying not to overtly complicate my ideas.  I would
like to know how a theist views my opinion, and when, exactly, they lose reason to
chance?  That would rock!

I do support your view on religion as a space-filler for when we simply had way too
many unknowns.  Isn't it funny that we would still be in the same boat if every
person on earth was a slave of religion?

It's not the atheist opinion that a moral compass has alwasy existed in primitive form...I'm not sure that anyone has that view aside from maybe creationists.

I see morality as a human construct developed out of a need to counter those evolved instincts which no longer serve our common interests. Where evolution began to fail us, we developed emotion, empathy, and later reason to correct or make up for it. In other words, we have evolved the ability to evolve ourselves better (or at least faster) than nature can do it, if we so choose.

A small bonus of this view is that it completely dismisses the characterization of any act as 'unnatural' from being a valid criterion for judging its moral value. Not that a simple comparison/contrast of 'unnatural' acts wouldn't suffice (driving a car, using a cell phone, getting a lung transplant, eating a Twinkie, wearing clothes, etc.).

A "moral compass" then, is nothing more than a perception of what our collective best interests are, and the alignment of certain priorities in accord with that perception.



That's a rough sketch of it, anyway. And I could be totally wrong.

Interesting thoughts wjennings1977

Do you think there could ever be a perfect moral compass?

I like the way elliebean explained the "moral compass" because it does seem to be based entirely on perception which changes with social evolution.

Quote from: "Whitney"It's not the atheist opinion that a moral compass has alwasy existed in primitive form...I'm not sure that anyone has that view aside from maybe creationists.

I never said otherwise I'm merely trying to examplify how I can come to
these conclusions without the need of a god or religion.  I'm tired of being
classified as morally imcompetent by Creationists, because they believe
that morality is a product of their God as if it's not a natural law!

I believe that showing how I can come to these conclusions by referring
to things which we all know as facts is more 'mature'  way to discuss the
matter.  For this experiment, I would love to see exactly when they
abandon reality for what isn't real.  They abide by the same rules which
we know as truths just as we do, but they believe they are superiorly
moral because of an unknown which they believe is truth?

I'm sorry that this escaped you!

Quote from: "Chewbie Chan"Interesting thoughts wjennings1977

Do you think there could ever be a perfect moral compass?

Wow! This depends entirely on your description of perfect.

For instance, one may argue that our ability to reason and learn
from our mistakes would make each of us a candidate for
obtaining a perfect set of morals, but another may argue
that the nature of choice and interpretation would prevent
the given set of  morals from being perfect.

Quote from: "elliebean"I see morality as a human construct developed out of a need to counter those evolved instincts which no longer serve our common interests. Where evolution began to fail us, we developed emotion, empathy, and later reason to correct or make up for it. In other words, we have evolved the ability to evolve ourselves better (or at least faster) than nature can do it, if we so choose.

A small bonus of this view is that it completely dismisses the characterization of any act as 'unnatural' from being a valid criterion for judging its moral value. Not that a simple comparison/contrast of 'unnatural' acts wouldn't suffice (driving a car, using a cell phone, getting a lung transplant, eating a Twinkie, wearing clothes, etc.).

A "moral compass" then, is nothing more than a perception of what our collective best interests are, and the alignment of certain priorities in accord with that perception.



That's a rough sketch of it, anyway. And I could be totally wrong.

Quote from: "Ellavemia"I like the way elliebean explained the "moral compass" because it does seem to be based entirely on perception which changes with social evolution.

These are more atheistic opinions of morality and it's origins, but I want to see a creationists thoughts and opinions.

Did they all deconvert?

They're probably just busy. I'm sure they'll come. Just give it some time.  

Christians believe that Adam and Ever ate the forbidden fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of this, we all know what good and evil is. According to their own beliefs, regardless of the actual existence of God, Atheists are exactly as capable of moral and ethical behavior and beliefs as the Christians who attempt to demonize them.

Quote from: "Ellainix"Christians believe that Adam and Ever ate the forbidden fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of this, we all know what good and evil is. According to their own beliefs, regardless of the actual existence of God, Atheists are exactly as capable of moral and ethical behavior and beliefs as the Christians who attempt to demonize them.

Except their sins are washed away.   (Is it just me or do our emoticons look different today?)

Survival of the Species and thats all Species -- presetvations of the same .... MC for humans can take many forms depending on the CULTURE. Whats right and whats wrong is ditated by those who have the POWER to imposed laws. Take the WAR in IRAK, everyone knew the true but ignore it and pretended not to know. U.S. law maker wanted to invade IRAK and it did not matter how many civilians casualties the war will claimed. Since they were having problems with locating weapons of mass destructions they played another card which was the accusations of crime against humanity. You might say how does this relates to the MC. Here you have a society thats wants to promote " JUSTICE " ( U.S. ) but what it really wanted was to fulfill its own interests and expand its influence along with world domination. In other words to yet another nation. I'm not going into further details but I will state that in my opinion, my MC is what I ditate as right and wrong and I care less what the world got to say about it.

ALL ATHEISTS ARE IMMORAL HEATHENS WHO ARE DUMB! I THOUGHT ALL OF YOU QUARTER-WITS KNEW THIS?!

Quote from: "HotRhymez"ALL ATHEISTS ARE IMMORAL HEATHENS WHO ARE DUMB! I THOUGHT ALL OF YOU QUARTER-WITS KNEW THIS?!

On a general scale, I would say that Atheists are more moral than Christians.

One of the reasons being that they can be just as capable of caring and doing what is right because that is what they believe rather than doing it because they are afraid of being eternally punished for not doing so.

On the other hand, morality is definitely a highly subjective idea to different cultures around the world.  But most of them will find common ground in what benefits society as whole.

Quote from: "HotRhymez"ALL ATHEISTS ARE IMMORAL HEATHENS WHO ARE DUMB! I THOUGHT ALL OF YOU QUARTER-WITS KNEW THIS?!

Why would you expect dumb quarter-wits to know anything....

or immoral heathens to care?

 

If believing in God and Jesus keeps Christians from murdering and raping and robbing banks and making kiddie-porn then I'm all for them being Christians.

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "HotRhymez"ALL ATHEISTS ARE IMMORAL HEATHENS WHO ARE DUMB! I THOUGHT ALL OF YOU QUARTER-WITS KNEW THIS?!

Why would you expect dumb quarter-wits to know anything....

or immoral heathens to care?

 :D