Happy Atheist Forum

There was some person that lived thousands of years ago, in a world that consisted of little villages. When travel by most people was limited to a few hundred KM. When every day there was dawn and there was night. There were people being born and people dying. When nothing was known of what held the stars in place or how big they were. When everything in relation to nature is repetitive and stable in the small life span of this person.
What on earth would make this person even contemplate that there could have been a time in which there were no humans on earth, when there was no animals or plants, there was no earth itself. Would not this person saying there was such a time have not been considered a loony? Should not all the people that believed this crazy story also be loony? How did such a loony story survive the passage of time?
Today even if we don t except this persons attributing all this to be a result of the activities of a creator, we must accept that there was one thing that this person said that was right, that everything around us was not always there but came to be.

What gave you the idea that Genesis is entirely original material, written by a single author? Or that by the time of its writing such ideas about origins hadn't become commonplace? Or that its authors meant anything written in it to be taken as literal facts, and not just part of a mythical tradition? Or that what you read in a modern translation says anything resembling the original text in its original language?

Consider that, being anything less than fluent in the original ancient Hebrew, being so far removed from the context of its time, location, and surrounding events and culture, having practically no frame of reference for their particular idioms, figures of speech, puns, play on words, jokes, sarcasm, double meanings, innuendo, allusions, or any other possible obfuscation of meaning, one can only speculate what any given passage might really be about. We assume most of it is pretty much literal, but we just don't know. We can't ever know.

Consider that other origin myths existed long before Genesis was written.

Consider that, of all the details in all the stories within the book of Genesis, the part about the universe having a beginning is probably by far the least "loony".

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation-ovid.html (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation-ovid.html)
Please check out this Creation myth written down in Ovid's Metamorphoses. It's my all time favourite, and it's so much like Genesis that it's quite astonishing, especially since it existed long before Genesis.
Creation myths are lovely folk tales, and I'm certain that people two thousand + years ago honestly believed them because they had limited understanding of the origins of the Earth and how the world works. It's only a medieval mentality that still clings to these fairytales in modern society in light of the evidence we now have available to us imo.

Quote from: "fdesilva"Today even if we don t except this persons attributing all this to be a result of the activities of a creator, we must accept that there was one thing that this person said that was right, that everything around us was not always there but came to be.

And the assumption is that this should actually end with "...though, obviously, it was God, I'm just making a point."

First, see everything elliebean wrote. Spot on. Also, kelltrill provides a perfect example of the original resources the Genesis authors used.

Look into the Bible as a pre-modern text. It wasn't designed to provide a description of how people should live and believe, but was a way to bring people into the world through something "larger" than them.

The Bible is, was, and always will be a way to herd sheep. Life is hard, and it says to people, "I know life is hard, and you're great for suffering through it. And don't worry, there's someone out there, much more powerful than you can ever imagine, who loves you for you and wants you to be happy. So don't worry if you get shit on, just know that you're loved."  

How many authors (that can be confidently confirmed) does Genesis have? And how many revisions and versions of it exist?

To answer your question this person/persons could have been insanely intelligent - as they have millions of people believing in fairy tales. That is quite a trick.

Quote from: "fdesilva"What on earth would make this person even contemplate that there could have been a time in which there were no humans on earth, when there was no animals or plants, there was no earth itself.

What makes you think it is abnormal to wonder how everything got here?  We witness daily the cycle of life; birth and death...even a very primitive brain would naturally start to wonder if this same cycle applies to everything and that there might have been a time before humans, animals, and the earth were born.  How do you think these god myths started in the first place...Sun Father, earth mother; people trying to apply what they see on earth as the life cycle process to existence in general and it's turtles all the way down.

Quote from: "Dretlin"How many authors (that can be confidently confirmed) does Genesis have? And how many revisions and versions of it exist?

To answer your question this person/persons could have been insanely intelligent - as they have millions of people believing in fairy tales. That is quite a trick.

Christianity does not have the masses of adherents it does today because of well-reasoned arguments and intellectual integrity. It's due to force, coercion and social and physical threats. That's not a trick at all; it's violence, pure and simple.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Dretlin"How many authors (that can be confidently confirmed) does Genesis have? And how many revisions and versions of it exist?

To answer your question this person/persons could have been insanely intelligent - as they have millions of people believing in fairy tales. That is quite a trick.

Christianity does not have the masses of adherents it does today because of well-reasoned arguments and intellectual integrity. It's due to force, coercion and social and physical threats. That's not a trick at all; it's violence, pure and simple.

That is a given.

Quote from: "elliebean"What gave you the idea that Genesis is entirely original material, written by a single author? Or that by the time of its writing such ideas about origins hadn't become commonplace? Or that its authors meant anything written in it to be taken as literal facts, and not just part of a mythical tradition? Or that what you read in a modern translation says anything resembling the original text in its original language?

Consider that, being anything less than fluent in the original ancient Hebrew, being so far removed from the context of its time, location, and surrounding events and culture, having practically no frame of reference for their particular idioms, figures of speech, puns, play on words, jokes, sarcasm, double meanings, innuendo, allusions, or any other possible obfuscation of meaning, one can only speculate what any given passage might really be about. We assume most of it is pretty much literal, but we just don't know. We can't ever know.

Consider that other origin myths existed long before Genesis was written.

Consider that, of all the details in all the stories within the book of Genesis, the part about the universe having a beginning is probably by far the least "loony".

Great to know you are still consciouss

Quote from: "fdesilva"Great to know you are still consciouss

This is all you have to say to those that responded to you? Surely, you being a Christian, could summon the holy spirit and you could then rebuff all those replies.....right?

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "fdesilva"Great to know you are still consciouss :)

Quote from: "fdesilva"

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "fdesilva"Great to know you are still consciouss :)

Sometimes I just want to grab my computer screen and shout "MAKE SENSE!!!"  This is one of those times.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Sometimes I just want to grab my computer screen and shout "MAKE SENSE!!!"  This is one of those times.

Assuming you are referring to my statements
This
“Great to know you are still consciouss”
Was to  elliebean
In response to eliebians last comment on another thread to me
“If I read one more word written by you, I fear, I will cease to be conscious.”

This
"Actually it's the other way round"
Is in response to
Gewens
“This is all you have to say to those that responded to you? Surely, you being a Christian, could summon the holy spirit and you could then rebuff all those replies.....right?”

Meaning its not the Christian that summons the Holy Spirit But rather the Holy Spirit that summons the Christian :)

Quote from: "fdesilva"Great to know you are still consciouss :blush:

Hey, that's a great little story there, fdesilva!

Can we go home now?

Be nice.

I like the one story about how the world is on the back of a turtle.  I'm going to tell it to my kids someday.

When the Masses can be convince to follow an Idea or a Belief by a group or individual, we can say they or he/her is a genious in the used of WORDS. Like Hitler, he was a MAD-GENIUS.

Wow. Godwinned in 18 posts!
[spoiler:uvmlcthn](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lumine.net%2Fpcs%2Fdl.php%2F153%2FCartmanHitler.jpg&hash=ab137fc81a4a73ebe533a7a583b873a5844c4568)[/spoiler:uvmlcthn]

fdesilva wins the internets!

Yes, I believe the authors of Genesis were religious fools. But, the greatest fools are those who still take Genesis literally. Genesis contains two creation stories that don't match up with each other. What both creation stories however share is that they are ridiculous, illogical, unscientific and nothing more than religious rambling. Furthermore, the whole story of Adam, Eve, Abel and Cain is pretty silly as well. Here is just one of the many examples, why Genesis cannot be true.

Quote4:17  And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Where the hell did Cain's wife come from? Cain just killed his brother, so the only humans that were left on the planet were his parents.

Hello, and welcome to HAF, fdesilva.

Quote from: "fdesilva"...What on earth would make this person even contemplate that there could have been a time in which there were no humans on earth, when there was no animals or plants, there was no earth itself[?]

As has been pointed out by several here, it's not that uncommon for myth-makers to speak of a time when there was nothing, not earth, nor sky, nor water, nor animals, nor people.  (See page of creation myths (http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html).) In the primitive logic of our ancestors, it makes sense; days begin, we begin, seasons begin, we see many things begin.  In fact, the human mind has trouble truly grasping the idea that anything might not have a beginning.  So it's not as if the biblical creation myth is at all novel. What makes you think that it is?

 

Quote from: "fdesilva"...Would not this person saying there was such a time have not been considered a loony? Should not all the people that believed this crazy story also be loony?

Perhaps the author(s) of the Genesis myth were considered loony.  In several types of early societies, though, such loons were revered and given high status as shamen or priests.  You've heard of the idiom "touched in the head," which means "a bit loony."  I believe that goes back to "touched by [the gods] God."  Those who were touched by the gods/God, while definitely not normal, were deferred to and their words carried weight.  This is a very common theme down through the years, in many human societies.  Listening to a "holy loon" was not grounds for being considered loony oneself.  It doesn't work to try to judge societies of the past by our standards, so please don't ask me to do so.

 

Quote from: "fdesilva"How did such a loony story survive the passage of time?

Are you serious?  As I pointed out above, many myths (including creation myths) which sound blatantly absurd to modern ears have survived for thousands of years.  Why should it seem unusual for this one to also have survived?

You seem to be saying that the biblical creation myth is special in some way. No doubt it's special to you, but you've offered no convincing evidence to back up your feeling.

To answer the question in the title of this thread, I would say simply, "neither."

Quote from: "elliebean"Wow. Godwinned in 18 posts!
[spoiler:1vo9k62v](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lumine.net%2Fpcs%2Fdl.php%2F153%2FCartmanHitler.jpg&hash=ab137fc81a4a73ebe533a7a583b873a5844c4568)[/spoiler:1vo9k62v]

fdesilva wins the internets!

That's nothin... we hit it in the first three posts on another thread. Just can't remember which one right now.  

Wasn't there another thread that godwinned itself in the OP as well?  

Jnum and the origin of humanity --- Jnum an Egyptian god --- Apofis and the power of darkness also an Egyptian god -- The god Apofis representing  ( as a snake ) the origin of evil and all of the forces that provoke fear. Most interesting is the Arc of UT-Napishti, who save humanity from extintion. In its interior there were represented both male and female animals to re-populate the Earth after the flood. These Egyptians gods existed many centuries before Genesis. It is from the Egyptians that most of the stories are taken and given new characteristics. They are exactly identical for the exceptions of the time and the characters with some new added words. So the question should be: Is the author of genesis an original or a fake ? Check also the god Amon for Virgin Birth.

God spent plenty of time in the Pentateuch giving ridiculous laws about slavery and adultery, but spared not a single word for ways to cure cancer. Color me unimpressed by the fairytales.