Happy Atheist Forum

Is there any hard evidence that Yeshua lived or was crucified and by whom? Was he trying to be a revolutionary or just made out to be that way by his mythical personification? It would be nice to get to the real historical Jesus if there really is one.

I've always wanted a decent answer to that. There are so many gaps in the story (we see Jesus as a baby and then again as a grown man). I have done some research on archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus but people insist on referring to eye-witness accounts that are millennia old or written testimonies that appear in the Bible. With regards to the resurrection there doesn't seem to be any more concrete evidence than an empty cave and some strips of material left over, stuff like that.
I think he probably was a real person, even though I have no evidence to back up me saying so. I would assume that he was someone like Ghandi or Mandela, or a more mystical persona like you mentioned. If he existed that is.

Quote from: "Sophus"Is there any hard evidence that Yeshua lived or was crucified and by whom?

No, there is no hard evidence that such a person lived, was crucified and resurrected.

Quote from: "kelltrill"With regards to the resurrection there doesn't seem to be any more concrete evidence than an empty cave and some strips of material left over, stuff like that.

They've identified a cave? I recall seeing something about that on the History channel but the scientist doing the research was a Christian so I was very skeptical of any claims.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "kelltrill"With regards to the resurrection there doesn't seem to be any more concrete evidence than an empty cave and some strips of material left over, stuff like that.

They've identified a cave? I recall seeing something about that on the History channel but the scientist doing the research was a Christian so I was very skeptical of any claims.

Pfft, the History Channel also has shows on about which of the seven deadly sins are coming true.   What ever happened to my 24 hour World War II channel?!

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"What ever happened to my 24 hour World War II channel?!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphjam.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F04%2F129149070212059998.png&hash=6bfdafeb403d7d67693d92cfcb9841a6203e3e7a)

Though I think the 'American History' box should read 'Civil War History'.

The Historians of the era when the supposed Jesus live give no accounts of his existent. As a matter of fact, all accounts are given about 80 to 90 years after the so called facts. That was HISTORY IN THE MAKING -- Pontius PILATE washing his hands and having nothing to do with this person accusations or crimes. Nothing by Historians --- The crusifiction -- Nothing by Historians .. the supposed miracles performed by Jesus -- Nothing by Historians. History was being written at that time, the Romans kept very accurate accounts of major events and that was a MAJOR EVENT. WAS Jesus a real person or a make believe one ? A make believe one is the answer.

I don't remember the source, but I seem to recall a question over whether Nazareth was even a real place at the supposed time of the alleged life of Jesus. Anyone know anything about that?

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "kelltrill"With regards to the resurrection there doesn't seem to be any more concrete evidence than an empty cave and some strips of material left over, stuff like that.

They've identified a cave? I recall seeing something about that on the History channel but the scientist doing the research was a Christian so I was very skeptical of any claims.

I find it better to just be skeptical in general, not just of religious people talking about their religion. Skepticism is not negative, it's what makes sure everyone stays in check. The authority you don't question is the most dangerous authority.

Quote from: "elliebean"I don't remember the source, but I seem to recall a question over whether Nazareth was even a real place at the supposed time of the alleged life of Jesus. Anyone know anything about that?

There's no evidence it ever existed, but, who knows? The Bible is sometimes oddly specific about real geographical locations when it really needn't be. And today, it just comes back to shoot itself in the foot (ex. Garden of Eden). So maybe Nazareth was real but it just hasn't survived the test of time.

QuoteThe Historians of the era when the supposed Jesus live give no accounts of his existent. As a matter of fact, all accounts are given about 80 to 90 years after the so called facts. That was HISTORY IN THE MAKING -- Pontius PILATE washing his hands and having nothing to do with this person accusations or crimes. Nothing by Historians --- The crusifiction -- Nothing by Historians .. the supposed miracles performed by Jesus -- Nothing by Historians. History was being written at that time, the Romans kept very accurate accounts of major events and that was a MAJOR EVENT. WAS Jesus a real person or a make believe one ? A make believe one is the answer.

Pilates personality would seem suitable to carry out a crucifixion of a highly unsignificant Jesus that went unrecorded but it certainly wouldn't have happened the way the Gospels potray it, since he was by no means hesitant in decision making. Maybe it's one of those mysteries we'll never know...

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "elliebean"I don't remember the source, but I seem to recall a question over whether Nazareth was even a real place at the supposed time of the alleged life of Jesus. Anyone know anything about that?

There's no evidence it ever existed, but, who knows? The Bible is sometimes oddly specific about real geographical locations when it really needn't be. And today, it just comes back to shoot itself in the foot (ex. Garden of Eden). So maybe Nazareth was real but it just hasn't survived the test of time.

QuoteThe Historians of the era when the supposed Jesus live give no accounts of his existent. As a matter of fact, all accounts are given about 80 to 90 years after the so called facts. That was HISTORY IN THE MAKING -- Pontius PILATE washing his hands and having nothing to do with this person accusations or crimes. Nothing by Historians --- The crusifiction -- Nothing by Historians .. the supposed miracles performed by Jesus -- Nothing by Historians. History was being written at that time, the Romans kept very accurate accounts of major events and that was a MAJOR EVENT. WAS Jesus a real person or a make believe one ? A make believe one is the answer.

Pilates personality would seem suitable to carry out a crucifixion of a highly unsignificant Jesus that went unrecorded but it certainly wouldn't have happened the way the Gospels potray it, since he was by no means hesitant in decision making. Maybe it's one of those mysteries we'll never know...

Sophus, I'm curious about something. You say that you're an athiest but I get the impression that you're wondering about all this Jesus stuff. Am I wrong?

Quote from: "i_am_i"Sophus, I'm curious about something. You say that you're an athiest but I get the impression that you're wondering about all this Jesus stuff. Am I wrong?

I'm not asking if Jesus, the mythical God-man, existed. I'm asking if there was a real man who may have existed that lead to the myth.  

You have to asked yourself, how does someone go around feeding so many thousands of people with just one piece of bread and be a secret to HISTORIANS. You may also asked yourself this special question: Three KINGS followed a STAR that will lead them to the birth of JESUS and no further Histories of these KIngs. Further, they bring gifts along with them for the newborned JESUS. I will say that those Kings didn't travel unescorted and in their respective kingdoms surelly their HISTORIANS will have RECORDED the EVENTS as well as doing a follow up of JESUS. These stories are told and the audience is supposed to take it for granted the it is all true minus any evidence.

Quote from: "hvargas"You have to asked yourself, how does someone go around feeding so many thousands of people with just one piece of bread and be a secret to HISTORIANS. You may also asked yourself this special question: Three KINGS followed a STAR that will lead them to the birth of JESUS and no further Histories of these KIngs. Further, they bring gifts along with them for the newborned JESUS. I will say that those Kings didn't travel unescorted and in their respective kingdoms surelly their HISTORIANS will have RECORDED the EVENTS as well as doing a follow up of JESUS. These stories are told and the audience is supposed to take it for granted the it is all true minus any evidence.

I'm NOT talking about the myth(s). There are secularists who seem to think he (a non-magical, totally human rabbi named Yeshua) existed. I just don't know the reasoning...

Quote from: "Wikipedia"cholars like Sanders, Geza Vermes, John P. Meier, David Flusser, James H. Charlesworth, Raymond E. Brown, Paula Fredriksen and John Dominic Crossan argue that, although many readers are accustomed to thinking of Jesus solely as a theological figure whose existence is a matter only of religious debate, the four canonical Gospel accounts are based on source documents written within decades after Jesus' lifetime, and therefore provide a basis for the study of the "historical" Jesus. These historians also draw on other historical sources and archaeological evidence to reconstruct the life of Jesus in his historical and cultural context.

I always assumed there was a real person named whatever Jesus would have been named in that time and place who was a "prophet" and the "gospels" wrote about him and his teachings and beliefs years after he died or was murdered due to his radical ideas. just as any myth changes as it's retold, I figured the magical crazy parts were filled in to make for better stories. I only recently learned that there is no archaeological evidence to support that this guy was real but I also have no reason to believe he wasn't. Most all fables have some basis of truth which inspired them.

In other words it doesn't change my position on atheism and anti-theism one way or another, real or not. The stories of Jesus might have been inspired by true events just like some outlandishly fictional movies were inspired by true events but that doesn't mean the end product is anything close to real.

Quote from: "Ellavemia"I always assumed there was a real person named whatever Jesus would have been named in that time and place who was a "prophet" and the "gospels" wrote about him and his teachings and beliefs years after he died or was murdered due to his radical ideas. just as any myth changes as it's retold, I figured the magical crazy parts were filled in to make for better stories. I only recently learned that there is no archaeological evidence to support that this guy was real but I also have no reason to believe he wasn't. Most all fables have some basis of truth which inspired them.

In other words it doesn't change my position on atheism and anti-theism one way or another, real or not. The stories of Jesus might have been inspired by true events just like some outlandishly fictional movies were inspired by true events but that doesn't mean the end product is anything close to real.

I think this is likely too since the authors of the Bible are so unoriginal. Plus we have the writings of Josephus on Jesus. Not much. But still....

I can't vouch for its veracity, since I can't remember the source, but I've read that even the Josephus accounts were 'doctored' later on to make them seem more compelling, and that earlier manuscripts didn't even include one of the - I think - two relevant passages.

I'll be very grateful if anyone can verify or point to the origin of that allegation.

You guys might be interested to check out these books by Professor G.A. Wells. He comes highly recommended by Dawkins. I haven't had a chance to read them yet myself but they're on the list

Did Jesus Exist?
The Historical Evidence for Jesus
Who was Jesus?: A Critique of the New Testament Record
The Jesus Legend

Jesus the men vs. Jesus The Son of God. Lets start with the men not as a child but as an adult whose is a carpentar. One question that I will asked is; was such a trade a good business? Lets say comparable to a doctor today. As the men he must had done a lot of work for some people that needed carpentry work, for which he must had charged them according to the price of that time. I will place such a men a little in the upper-class or a least not a poor one. I will also say that he was well known due to his trade. At the age of 30 this men does a 360 degree turned and decide that its time for the world to know that his the son of God. Enters the son of God mounted on a donkey ( may I say that next to the horse or a camel, the donkey can be compare to a an Audi ). From far and near no one knows this men for the exception of those that speak for him and describe him. Did a Rabbi by the name of Yeshua existed and whose story was replace by a more exciting story? Just how did the Apostle manage to bring into life the story of a men that only the last three years of his life are known. Those last three years are the one known as THE SON OF GOD. If one think about it Yeshua the men never was and if we go further the newborn Yeshua was never borned. The Koran speaks of Jesus but thats 630 years later, it has no evidence only what it collected from other sources. That will make the name Yeshua more a Myth than a fact, even if you gave it the benefit of the doubt it will still weight more towards the Myth.

Quote from: "hvargas"Jesus the men vs. Jesus The Son of God. Lets start with the men not as a child but as an adult whose is a carpentar. One question that I will asked is; was such a trade a good business? Lets say comparable to a doctor today. As the men he must had done a lot of work for some people that needed carpentry work, for which he must had charged them according to the price of that time.

If Jesus was a carpenter I wonder what he charged for bookshelves...

Quote from: "kelltrill"You guys might be interested to check out these books by Professor G.A. Wells. He comes highly recommended by Dawkins. I haven't had a chance to read them yet myself but they're on the list

Did Jesus Exist?
The Historical Evidence for Jesus
Who was Jesus?: A Critique of the New Testament Record
The Jesus Legend

Perfect! Thank you kelltrill.

QuoteIf Jesus was a carpenter I wonder what he charged for bookshelves...

I doubt there are any reputable scholars who think he was a carpenter. A Jewish Rabbi/monk maybe... if he existed at all.

One need to differ between the historical Ribi [a Jewish leader with rabbinic ordination] named Yehoshua â€" the Messiah - and the counterfeit image of Jesus.

The first century historical Ribi Yehoshua â€" the Messiah â€" was a Pharisaic Ribi [proof in note 1] and and his followers the Netzarim were in good standing in the Pharisaic Jewish community all of their life times [proof in note 2].

There is significant evidence demonstrating the Talpiot Tomb is the resting place of Ribi Yehoshua, his wife, his son, his mother and his brother -- versus NO evidence "disproving" the Talpiot Tomb.
 
I recommend the follow research about the Talpiot Tomb: www.netzarim.co.il; (http://www.netzarim.co.il;) Click at “History Museum” (left menu);“Mashiakh.” (top menu); Scroll down to Talpiot Tomb Complex;

Notes:
1. http://bloganders.blogspot.com/2010/08/ ... ssiah.html (http://bloganders.blogspot.com/2010/08/historical-ribi-called-yehoshua-messiah.html)

2.Well documented in the article “Discover the Authentic, Historical Pharisee-Ribi Yehoshua” in the first page on the website www.netzarim.co.il (http://www.netzarim.co.il) ; and in the ”History Museum” (left menu) of the same website.