Title: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 01:25:43 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 01:25:43 AM
What matters most about the Christian story is not if it’s true or false but rather the kind of heroism that it inspires, as exemplified by this poem.
"Still He Walked" - Author Unknown
He could hear the crowds screaming "crucify" "crucify"...
He could hear the hatred in their voices,
These were his chosen people.
He loved them,
And they were going to crucify him.
He was beaten, bleeding and weakened...
His heart was broken,
But still He walked.
He could see the crowd as he came from the palace.
He knew each of the faces so well.
He had created them.
He knew every smile, every laugh, and every shed tear,
But now they were contorted with rage and anger
His heart broke,
But still He walked.
Was he scared? You and I would have been
So his humanness would have mandated that he was.
He felt alone.
His disciples had left, denied, and even betrayed him.
He searched the crowd for a loving face and he saw very few.
Then he turned his eyes to the only one that mattered
And he knew that he would never be alone.
He looked back at the crowd...
At the people who were spitting at him
Throwing rocks at him and mocking him
And he knew that because of him,
They would never be alone.
So for them, He walked.
The sounds of the hammer striking the spikes echoed through the crowd.
The sounds of his cries echoed even louder,
The cheers of the crowd, as his hands and feet were nailed to the cross,
Intensified with each blow.
Loudest of all was the still small voice
Inside his Heart that whispered "I am with you, my son",
And God's heart broke.
He had let His son walk.
Jesus could have asked God to end his suffering,
But instead He asked God to forgive.
Not to forgive him, but to forgive the ones who were persecuting him.
As he hung on that cross, dying an unimaginable death,
He looked out and saw, not only the faces in the crowd,
But also, the face of every person yet to be,
And his heart filled with love.
As his body was dying, his heart was alive.
Alive with the limitless, unconditional love he feels for each of us.
That is why He walked.
When I forget how much My God loves me,
...I remember his walk.
When I wonder if I can be forgiven,
...I remember his walk.
When I need to be reminded of how to live like Christ,
...I think of his walk.
And to show him how much I love him,
...I wake up each morning, turn my eyes to him,
.......And I walk.
"Still He Walked" - Author Unknown
He could hear the crowds screaming "crucify" "crucify"...
He could hear the hatred in their voices,
These were his chosen people.
He loved them,
And they were going to crucify him.
He was beaten, bleeding and weakened...
His heart was broken,
But still He walked.
He could see the crowd as he came from the palace.
He knew each of the faces so well.
He had created them.
He knew every smile, every laugh, and every shed tear,
But now they were contorted with rage and anger
His heart broke,
But still He walked.
Was he scared? You and I would have been
So his humanness would have mandated that he was.
He felt alone.
His disciples had left, denied, and even betrayed him.
He searched the crowd for a loving face and he saw very few.
Then he turned his eyes to the only one that mattered
And he knew that he would never be alone.
He looked back at the crowd...
At the people who were spitting at him
Throwing rocks at him and mocking him
And he knew that because of him,
They would never be alone.
So for them, He walked.
The sounds of the hammer striking the spikes echoed through the crowd.
The sounds of his cries echoed even louder,
The cheers of the crowd, as his hands and feet were nailed to the cross,
Intensified with each blow.
Loudest of all was the still small voice
Inside his Heart that whispered "I am with you, my son",
And God's heart broke.
He had let His son walk.
Jesus could have asked God to end his suffering,
But instead He asked God to forgive.
Not to forgive him, but to forgive the ones who were persecuting him.
As he hung on that cross, dying an unimaginable death,
He looked out and saw, not only the faces in the crowd,
But also, the face of every person yet to be,
And his heart filled with love.
As his body was dying, his heart was alive.
Alive with the limitless, unconditional love he feels for each of us.
That is why He walked.
When I forget how much My God loves me,
...I remember his walk.
When I wonder if I can be forgiven,
...I remember his walk.
When I need to be reminded of how to live like Christ,
...I think of his walk.
And to show him how much I love him,
...I wake up each morning, turn my eyes to him,
.......And I walk.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: i_am_i on April 07, 2010, 02:01:33 AM
Post by: i_am_i on April 07, 2010, 02:01:33 AM
"Author Unknown." How heroic of you.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: G-Roll on April 07, 2010, 02:23:33 AM
Post by: G-Roll on April 07, 2010, 02:23:33 AM
i got some good jesus stuff too!!
Jesus and Moses were strolling by the Red Sea, when Moses nudged Jesus and said, "Psst. Hey, Jesus, I've still got it."
Moses turned towards the Red Sea and lifted his staff on high. The angels began to sing, the gentle sea breeze turned into a raging gale, and the waters of the Red Sea were parted. Moses lowered his arms and, with a smug grin on his face, turned back to face Jesus.
Jesus scoffed. "Moses, my boy," said the Messiah, "I have still got it." And with a flourish of his robes, Jesus stepped onto the waters of the Red Sea and began to stride across without so much as a ripple.
But to Moses' amazement, halfway across the water, Jesus suddenly began to sink. He splashed into the water and began to choke and flounder as the waves tossed him around. Moses grumbled at Jesus' sillyness and parted the water once more. Moses helped Jesus back to shore, as the Saviour hacked up salt water.
When they had finally reached shore, Moses slapped a consoling hand on Jesus' shoulder and said, "Don't worry about it, Lord. Last time you tried it, you didn't have holes in your feet."
----------------------------------
What did Jesus say when they removed his hands from the cross?
*waves arms frantically*
GET THE FEET!!
Here's another, which is (unfortunately) just a visual joke ...
Say "What's this ???" while you hold your palm up to your mouth and make biting gestures.
... Jesus biting his nails ....
-------------------------------------
There was a wealthy Jew (non-Christian) who owned a nail company. His only son had just graduated from college and the father wanted to get him involved in the company.
He initially farmed the young man out to each of the departments; first research & development, then manufacturing, then sales, and in each the son was a dismal failure. Determined to find a place for his offspring, the father decided that his son needed his own project.
So the father placed his son in charge of the new advertising campaign. He told him that he would have no supervision and that any and all resources which he needed would be placed at his disposal. The son was elated and immediately set off to make his father proud.
Four weeks later the son proudly proclaimed, "I have finished!" and he and his father went out to examine the first product of the new campaign: a billboard.
As they drove to the sight, the son explained how he had been blocked until a sudden insight had leaped into his head. They turned the corner and to the father's horror the billboard portrayed Christ on a cross with the caption: "Even Then They Used Goldberg Nails."
The father explained to the son that they couldn't portray Christ on a cross as it might offend their Christian clients. Dejected, the son said that he would fix the problem and report back to his father.
One week later the son again exclaimed that he was "finished," and took his father off to see the billboard. Sure enough, Christ was no longer on the cross; he was lying at the base of the cross and the caption read:
"This Wouldn't Happen With Goldberg Nails"
Jesus and Moses were strolling by the Red Sea, when Moses nudged Jesus and said, "Psst. Hey, Jesus, I've still got it."
Moses turned towards the Red Sea and lifted his staff on high. The angels began to sing, the gentle sea breeze turned into a raging gale, and the waters of the Red Sea were parted. Moses lowered his arms and, with a smug grin on his face, turned back to face Jesus.
Jesus scoffed. "Moses, my boy," said the Messiah, "I have still got it." And with a flourish of his robes, Jesus stepped onto the waters of the Red Sea and began to stride across without so much as a ripple.
But to Moses' amazement, halfway across the water, Jesus suddenly began to sink. He splashed into the water and began to choke and flounder as the waves tossed him around. Moses grumbled at Jesus' sillyness and parted the water once more. Moses helped Jesus back to shore, as the Saviour hacked up salt water.
When they had finally reached shore, Moses slapped a consoling hand on Jesus' shoulder and said, "Don't worry about it, Lord. Last time you tried it, you didn't have holes in your feet."
----------------------------------
What did Jesus say when they removed his hands from the cross?
*waves arms frantically*
GET THE FEET!!
Here's another, which is (unfortunately) just a visual joke ...
Say "What's this ???" while you hold your palm up to your mouth and make biting gestures.
... Jesus biting his nails ....
-------------------------------------
There was a wealthy Jew (non-Christian) who owned a nail company. His only son had just graduated from college and the father wanted to get him involved in the company.
He initially farmed the young man out to each of the departments; first research & development, then manufacturing, then sales, and in each the son was a dismal failure. Determined to find a place for his offspring, the father decided that his son needed his own project.
So the father placed his son in charge of the new advertising campaign. He told him that he would have no supervision and that any and all resources which he needed would be placed at his disposal. The son was elated and immediately set off to make his father proud.
Four weeks later the son proudly proclaimed, "I have finished!" and he and his father went out to examine the first product of the new campaign: a billboard.
As they drove to the sight, the son explained how he had been blocked until a sudden insight had leaped into his head. They turned the corner and to the father's horror the billboard portrayed Christ on a cross with the caption: "Even Then They Used Goldberg Nails."
The father explained to the son that they couldn't portray Christ on a cross as it might offend their Christian clients. Dejected, the son said that he would fix the problem and report back to his father.
One week later the son again exclaimed that he was "finished," and took his father off to see the billboard. Sure enough, Christ was no longer on the cross; he was lying at the base of the cross and the caption read:
"This Wouldn't Happen With Goldberg Nails"
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: elliebean on April 07, 2010, 02:31:23 AM
Post by: elliebean on April 07, 2010, 02:31:23 AM
Based on that poem, taking its protagonist as an example, we can conclude that the true heroes of this world are the atheists, the gays, the lesbians, the transsexuals, the poor, the socialists, the anarchists, the intellectuals, the outspoken opponents of christianity and of all religion and its influence on and intrusion into public policy, and all others whose crucifixion - crucifixion of rights, crucifixion of presence, crucifixion of equality, crucifixion of voice, crucifixion of safety, of life, of peace, of happiness - is loudly and passionately and angrily and regularly cried out for, and not just cried out for but in fact executed in the papers, on the news, on the radio, in the churches, in the streets, in rallies, on the steps of congress, at family fucking gatherings by that loving caring, generous, compassionate lot, the christians. And still we walk.
Thanks for your support.
Thanks for your support.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Whitney on April 07, 2010, 02:34:33 AM
Post by: Whitney on April 07, 2010, 02:34:33 AM
What matters most about the Christian story is not if it’s true or false but rather the kind of hate that it inspires, as exemplified by this song.
[youtube:i8iq4n6v]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyEjpl50_XE[/youtube:i8iq4n6v]
[youtube:i8iq4n6v]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyEjpl50_XE[/youtube:i8iq4n6v]
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: kelltrill on April 07, 2010, 12:04:58 PM
Post by: kelltrill on April 07, 2010, 12:04:58 PM
That poem only seems to promote the underdogs and marginalised in society as heroes or potential heroes, which has never been the case in Christianity. In religion, authority is accepted as truth rather than truth as authority (thanks to a Dawkins' documentary for that quote). Anyone who disagreed with religious authority was always punished. Just because Christianity happens to believe in one of these religious underdogs does not mean that applies generally. In fact, the general trend if found in websites like godhatesfags.com and in the youtube video posted above, where anyone with a different opinion or lifestyle is subjected to severe hate speech and abuse.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: SSY on April 07, 2010, 12:54:45 PM
Post by: SSY on April 07, 2010, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: "G-Roll""Don't worry about it, Lord. Last time you tried it, you didn't have holes in your feet."
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That is amazing!
One thing that always struck me, god, sending down his son to be crucified to forgive god's people for all the sins god was going to punish them for, seems a bit of a long way to do it, why go to the bother of nailing your son (who is also you) to a cross to achieve the aims you wanted? Why even have the system of being forgiven for sin, when you had a system that dammed people for thousands of years before? Why change at that point? Why did all the people before get a raw deal? It makes the whole crucifixion thing look like a bit of an ego trip to me, not mention, sacrificing yourself as a martyr when you know you will be resurrected is a bit of a cop out in my opinion.
P.S. That song, Jesus, they sing in such a cheery voice about such abhorrent things. Also, did you notice the large proportion of kids? One would assume that they have a large number of children so that they can at least retain a few of the nuttier ones up until adulthood.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: kelltrill on April 07, 2010, 04:23:53 PM
Post by: kelltrill on April 07, 2010, 04:23:53 PM
@ SSY, there's a good quote from a book I remember, although I can't remember where it's from and I'm too lazy to look it up.
"Why would God create a world populated by a flawed version of himself and then send an aspect of himself down to that world to redeem it of its built-in flaws by having himself be killed?"
"Why would God create a world populated by a flawed version of himself and then send an aspect of himself down to that world to redeem it of its built-in flaws by having himself be killed?"
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Squid on April 07, 2010, 06:17:29 PM
Post by: Squid on April 07, 2010, 06:17:29 PM
Quote from: "fdesilva"What matters most about the Christian story is not if it’s true or false but rather the kind of heroism that it inspires, as exemplified by this poem.
Christianity nor any religion has a monopoly on heroism. Heroism is resides within a person and their behavior and actions - these items are developed in people independent of religious affiliation and therefore you'd have to make a more substantial evidence-bases argument than presenting a poem. Poetry itself can inspire religious or not.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 08:36:10 PM
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 08:36:10 PM
Quote from: "i_am_i""Author Unknown." How heroic of you.I got it from an email I received.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 08:48:21 PM
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: "elliebean"Based on that poem, taking its protagonist as an example, we can conclude that the true heroes of this world are the atheists, the gays, the lesbians, the transsexuals, the poor, the socialists, the anarchists, the intellectuals, the outspoken opponents of christianity and of all religion and its influence on and intrusion into public policy, and all others whose crucifixion - crucifixion of rights, crucifixion of presence, crucifixion of equality, crucifixion of voice, crucifixion of safety, of life, of peace, of happiness - is loudly and passionately and angrily and regularly cried out for, and not just cried out for but in fact executed in the papers, on the news, on the radio, in the churches, in the streets, in rallies, on the steps of congress, at family fucking gatherings by that loving caring, generous, compassionate lot, the christians. And still we walk.From what I know, All people are equal and as such will have a cross to carry. In the stories of Christ he says "If you love me, take up your cross and follow me". From what I have observed, every one seems to have a Cross to carry, however, I think what matters is what’s in ones heart whiles carrying this cross. Love or hatred.
Thanks for your support.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 09:15:30 PM
Post by: fdesilva on April 07, 2010, 09:15:30 PM
Quote from: "Whitney"What matters most about the Christian story is not if it’s true or false but rather the kind of hate that it inspires, as exemplified by this song.What can I say? It is sad that the one teaching can lead to such thinking. I think that is why, with any teaching there needs to be a accepted body, that is responsible for it. What I mean is, take for example medicine. There are reputed medical schools that teach it. Now what must be kept in mind is that in order to become a doctor, it is true that you have to pass all your exams. However you do not need to get 100% to pass your exams. If that were the case we would not have any doctors. Yet when it comes to practising it we really would like to have 100% accuracy. However this is not the case. Many doctors make mistakes. Can we blame the medical schools for the mistakes the doctors made? Probably not as if you look at what was taught, you would find that in most cases, the doctor alone is responsible for his/her mistake.
[youtube:2rergr7d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyEjpl50_XE[/youtube:2rergr7d]
So in the same light, when looking at what is Christian teaching it would help to see, what does a reputed teaching body of this subject actually teach. As Christ said about the teaching body of his day. “Do what they teach, not what they doâ€
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: elliebean on April 07, 2010, 09:29:15 PM
Post by: elliebean on April 07, 2010, 09:29:15 PM
The problem with the WBC is not that they make mistakes; it's that they get 100% on the exam covering biblical laws regarding homosexuality.... and follow that teaching to the letter.
If the teaching is wrong, why is it in the learning materials?
If the teaching is wrong, why is it in the learning materials?
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: pinkocommie on April 07, 2010, 11:43:13 PM
Post by: pinkocommie on April 07, 2010, 11:43:13 PM
Quote from: "fdesilva"So in the same light, when looking at what is Christian teaching it would help to see, what does a reputed teaching body of this subject actually teach. As Christ said about the teaching body of his day. “Do what they teach, not what they doâ€
I think you've pointed out a huge issue within Christianity - the bible espouses conflicting teachings throughout the text. So, when it comes to some invisible god who can't/won't speak up for itself, who is to say what's right and what's wrong? How could you guys possibly agree? Maybe the jerkwads in WBC are right and you, assuming you're more of a lovey dovey christian, are wrong. In fact, I would argue that it's far more 'heroic' of the WBC to take a hard stand with their views, knowing full well they'll be hated for what they say, than it is for any liberal christian to cherry pick the text for all the nice, socially acceptable stuff. Going back to the idea of a reputed teaching body, isn't that the very reason you guys have different denominations? I agree it would be awesome if all Christians could get together and agree on what's right and what's wrong, it would certainly help clear up confusion in dialog between atheists and Christians, but obviously they can't which is why there are some 30,000 different denominations of Christianity in existence today.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 12:01:14 AM
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 12:01:14 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "Whitney"a reputed teaching body of this subject actually teach.
What counts as a "reputed teaching body"? If you ask the Pope he'll tell you it is immoral to use a condom even if you have AIDS and want to protect your wife. If you ask a protestant minister they'll likely think the condom is okay but might not be too keen on homosexuals being leaders in the church.
Not to mention that if we are talking about a book inspired by God, should an average person require a decoder ring to figure out why when it says "do not suffer a witch to live" that it means that only applies a thousand or two years ago and now we have different rules in society so it shouldn't be taken literally. You know...people are still being killed for suspected sorcery even to this day because people unfortunately actually follow what the bible says.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: kelltrill on April 08, 2010, 12:06:45 AM
Post by: kelltrill on April 08, 2010, 12:06:45 AM
Just to elaborate on what you said, Whitney, here is an article proving that Christians are still promoting the murder of "witches" in modern society.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/1 ... 24943.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/1 ... 24943.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html)
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 12:12:02 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 12:12:02 AM
Quote from: "elliebean"The problem with the WBC is not that they make mistakes; it's that they get 100% on the exam covering biblical laws regarding homosexuality.... and follow that teaching to the letter.Hi
If the teaching is wrong, why is it in the learning materials?
Would you say Hitler also whould have got 100%
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm)
How about some one like Frédéric Ozanam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Ozanam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Ozanam)
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: pinkocommie on April 08, 2010, 12:13:27 AM
Post by: pinkocommie on April 08, 2010, 12:13:27 AM
Hitler? Seriously? 
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 12:15:48 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 12:15:48 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"What counts as a "reputed teaching body"? If you ask the Pope he'll tell you it is immoral to use a condom even if you have AIDS and want to protect your wife. ...Tell me, in your opnion, has a person with aids, have the right to have a child?
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 12:31:04 AM
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 12:31:04 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "Whitney"What counts as a "reputed teaching body"? If you ask the Pope he'll tell you it is immoral to use a condom even if you have AIDS and want to protect your wife. ...Tell me, in your opnion, has a person with aids, have the right to have a child?
It would be immoral to transfer the AIDS on purpose...which is why a condom would be a good idea. Do they have the right? probably depends on where you live...there are no laws against having babies if you have x disease in the United States.
What does your question have to do with explaining who a "reputed teaching body" is?
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Sophus on April 08, 2010, 12:55:58 AM
Post by: Sophus on April 08, 2010, 12:55:58 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "elliebean"The problem with the WBC is not that they make mistakes; it's that they get 100% on the exam covering biblical laws regarding homosexuality.... and follow that teaching to the letter.Hi
If the teaching is wrong, why is it in the learning materials?
Would you say Hitler also whould have got 100%
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm)
Quite possibly. He acted a lot like the God of the OT.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 01:31:06 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 01:31:06 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"It would be immoral to transfer the AIDS on purpose...which is why a condom would be a good idea. Do they have the right? probably depends on where you live...there are no laws against having babies if you have x disease in the United States.With regards to
What does your question have to do with explaining who a "reputed teaching body" is?
Quote from: "Whitney"What does your question have to do with explaining who a "reputed teaching body" is?I am nominating the Catholic church
As such the Popes statement is relevant.
So from your point of view it is immoral to transfer AIDS to you partner. Then in that case to have sex with the aim of having a child, for a person with aids would be immoral as it can also give aids to the partner and child? Do you agree?
Well the Church does not take this view. All people have the same right with or without Aids or any other disease. Aids is one of the many diseases that can shorten once life, However life no matter its length is seen as equal in value.
If you were to tell a person that has aids they should wear a condom, is that not the same as saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex?
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: elliebean on April 08, 2010, 01:33:20 AM
Post by: elliebean on April 08, 2010, 01:33:20 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "elliebean"The problem with the WBC is not that they make mistakes; it's that they get 100% on the exam covering biblical laws regarding homosexuality.... and follow that teaching to the letter.Hi
If the teaching is wrong, why is it in the learning materials?
Would you say Hitler also whould have got 100%
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm)
How about some one like Frédéric Ozanam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Ozanam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Ozanam)
Don't deflect my question. Either answer it or don't, but don't insult my intelligence.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 01:56:14 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 01:56:14 AM
Quote from: "elliebean"Obviously I don't agree with "WBC is not that they make mistakes; it's that they get 100% on the exam covering biblical laws regarding homosexuality..."Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "elliebean"The problem with the WBC is not that they make mistakes; it's that they get 100% on the exam covering biblical laws regarding homosexuality.... and follow that teaching to the letter.Hi
If the teaching is wrong, why is it in the learning materials?
Would you say Hitler also whould have got 100%
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm)
How about some one like Frédéric Ozanam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Ozanam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Ozanam)
Don't deflect my question. Either answer it or don't, but don't insult my intelligence.
What I am saying is that you need to take the teaching of the bible via a reputed body. I am happy to nominate the catholic church as one
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: elliebean on April 08, 2010, 02:31:17 AM
Post by: elliebean on April 08, 2010, 02:31:17 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Obviously I don't agree with "WBC is not that they make mistakes; it's that they get 100% on the exam covering biblical laws regarding homosexuality..."Obviously you don't know the material well enough to debate it.
QuoteWhat I am saying is that you need to take the teaching of the bible via a reputed body. I am happy to nominate the catholic church as oneAnd you nominate yourself as the authority on the catholic church? Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: pinkocommie on April 08, 2010, 02:52:38 AM
Post by: pinkocommie on April 08, 2010, 02:52:38 AM
I nominate Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 04:57:56 AM
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 04:57:56 AM
So, because the Catholic church discourages the use of condoms and therefore aids in the spread of AIDS you think they are the ones who are interpreting the Bible correctly?
And no, If I tell a person who has AIDS that they should wear a condom I am not saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex. I am telling them that it isn't a good idea. You seem to be confusing what someone ought to do (morals) with what they are allowed to do (legal rights).
Oh, and how again does discouraging condoms mean the Catholic church gets to decide what the entire Bible really says. After all, these are the people who pray to saints and I'm pretty sure praising idols is why Moses threw the first set up tablets down.
Quote from: "fdesilva"If you were to tell a person that has aids they should wear a condom, is that not the same as saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex?
And no, If I tell a person who has AIDS that they should wear a condom I am not saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex. I am telling them that it isn't a good idea. You seem to be confusing what someone ought to do (morals) with what they are allowed to do (legal rights).
Oh, and how again does discouraging condoms mean the Catholic church gets to decide what the entire Bible really says. After all, these are the people who pray to saints and I'm pretty sure praising idols is why Moses threw the first set up tablets down.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Sophus on April 08, 2010, 05:29:50 AM
Post by: Sophus on April 08, 2010, 05:29:50 AM
Since it looks like this thread is headed down this road I want to throw this out in the open... Whenever I bring up a nasty OT verse, many protestants are quick to say "well, that's the OT, Jesus changed all that." Really? Because they still cherry pick and teach from a lot of the stuff in the OT. And theologically speaking, there's this:
So..... am I missing something? Why is the OT considered any less significant than the NT. There's no logic in cherry picking except to keep one's religion from appearing too repulsive in modern times.
Quote from: "Matthew 5:17-20""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So..... am I missing something? Why is the OT considered any less significant than the NT. There's no logic in cherry picking except to keep one's religion from appearing too repulsive in modern times.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 06:00:14 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 06:00:14 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"And no, If I tell a person who has AIDS that they should wear a condom I am not saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex. I am telling them that it isn't a good idea. You seem to be confusing what someone ought to do (morals) with what they are allowed to do (legal rights).Correct me if I am wrong please,
When you say “it isn’t a good idea†you mean its not morally a good thing to do right?
If that be the case, am I not right in saying that in your opinion it immoral for a person with aids to have a child via sex.?
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 06:04:35 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 06:04:35 AM
Quote from: "Sophus"Since it looks like this thread is headed down this road I want to throw this out in the open... Whenever I bring up a nasty OT verse, many protestants are quick to say "well, that's the OT, Jesus changed all that." Really? Because they still cherry pick and teach from a lot of the stuff in the OT. And theologically speaking, there's this:The NT is the objective, explanation and fulfilment of the OTQuote from: "Matthew 5:17-20""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So..... am I missing something? Why is the OT considered any less significant than the NT. There's no logic in cherry picking except to keep one's religion from appearing too repulsive in modern times.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 06:05:19 AM
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 06:05:19 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "Whitney"And no, If I tell a person who has AIDS that they should wear a condom I am not saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex. I am telling them that it isn't a good idea. You seem to be confusing what someone ought to do (morals) with what they are allowed to do (legal rights).Correct me if I am wrong please,
When you say “it isn’t a good idea†you mean its not morally a good thing to do right?
If that be the case, am I not right in saying that in your opinion it immoral for a person with aids to have a child via sex.?
How about you tell me why that is even relevant because you seem to be rabbit trailing. (and I already said what I think about condoms, sex, and AIDS)
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: pinkocommie on April 08, 2010, 06:08:13 AM
Post by: pinkocommie on April 08, 2010, 06:08:13 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "Whitney"And no, If I tell a person who has AIDS that they should wear a condom I am not saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex. I am telling them that it isn't a good idea. You seem to be confusing what someone ought to do (morals) with what they are allowed to do (legal rights).Correct me if I am wrong please,
When you say “it isn’t a good idea†you mean its not morally a good thing to do right?
If that be the case, am I not right in saying that in your opinion it immoral for a person with aids to have a child via sex.?
Whitney asked a few questions in the same post that you responded to, but you seemed to have missed them or forgot to respond. Ignoring questions in favor of asking additional questions of your own seems more like you're trying to preach or direct the conversation a specific way than have a constructive conversation.
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Sophus on April 08, 2010, 06:10:27 AM
Post by: Sophus on April 08, 2010, 06:10:27 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"The NT is the objective, explanation and fulfilment of the OTSo therefore all the laws and nature/attitude/mentality of God haven't changed?
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 07:31:23 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 07:31:23 AM
Quote from: "Sophus"Take all the books written about physics since the dawn of time and make one book of it. Now has physics changed or our understanding of Physics?Quote from: "fdesilva"The NT is the objective, explanation and fulfilment of the OTSo therefore all the laws and nature/attitude/mentality of God haven't changed?
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 07:33:56 AM
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 07:33:56 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "Sophus"Take all the books written about physics since the dawn of time and make one book of it. Now has physics changed or our understanding of Physics?Quote from: "fdesilva"The NT is the objective, explanation and fulfilment of the OTSo therefore all the laws and nature/attitude/mentality of God haven't changed?
So...you are saying that the Bible is simply the work of fallible men....I think we can all agree on that
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 08:12:41 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 08:12:41 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"Quote from: "fdesilva"Quote from: "Whitney"And no, If I tell a person who has AIDS that they should wear a condom I am not saying they do not have a right to have a child via sex. I am telling them that it isn't a good idea. You seem to be confusing what someone ought to do (morals) with what they are allowed to do (legal rights).Correct me if I am wrong please,
When you say “it isn’t a good idea†you mean its not morally a good thing to do right?
If that be the case, am I not right in saying that in your opinion it immoral for a person with aids to have a child via sex.?
How about you tell me why that is even relevant because you seem to be rabbit trailing. (and I already said what I think about condoms, sex, and AIDS)
Well that was not my idea, you are the one that brought up the whole issue on condoms by responding to me saying that you need a authoritative body to teach Christianity. You ruled out the catholic church on the basis that the "pope said aid condoms etc"
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 08:18:29 AM
Post by: fdesilva on April 08, 2010, 08:18:29 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"So...you are saying that the Bible is simply the work of fallible men....I think we can all agree on thatThe notes a student takes of the teaching of a great teacher, is always worth reading
Title: Re: Christian Heroism
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 08:52:26 AM
Post by: Whitney on April 08, 2010, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: "fdesilva"Well that was not my idea, you are the one that brought up the whole issue on condoms by responding to me saying that you need a authoritative body to teach Christianity. You ruled out the catholic church on the basis that the "pope said aid condoms etc"
I think you need to read my posts a bit more carefully...I was using condoms to point out that the authorities don't agree on what the bible says.
I don't think the bible is a good moral guide, why would I use poor morals to determine who is and isn't an authority?