Happy Atheist Forum

Hi all,

While watching "The Ten Commandments" (starring Charleton Heston and an Ark-load of stars), I had the following quandry:

What type of religious-inspired arts and entertainment do Atheists enjoy?

Religion has inspired great works of art in painting, sculpture, architecture, music, books, poetry, theatre and film.

What are some of your favorites?

Does it matter that they are religious in nature?

Would the world be better without all of it? (ok, so that's a huge question).

Some examples for me:
Angels and Demons (book)
Gregorian Chants (vocals)
Sistene Chapel (architecture, painting)
Michelangelo's David (sculpture)
Jesus Christ Superstar (theatre, music)
(or Godspell or Dreamcoat if you prefer ;-)
Mozart's Requiem (classical music)

Inquiring minds want to know - Chime in,
JoeActor

There is a lot of great architecture due to the insanely high church building budgets.

Quote from: "Whitney"There is a lot of great architecture due to the insanely high church building budgets.

Amen to that!

But I'm also sure that it affected other non-religious building designs.

Off to put flying butresses on my garage...

My personal, subjective rule-of-thumb:

Religious-inspired art = good

Religious propaganda posing as art = bad

In my observations, this applies almost equally in all art forms and media. Consider the example of christian popular music: the more 'preachy' the lyrics, the more crappy and fake the song sounds. There are very, very few exceptions to this rule.

To christians: This can't be attributed to a bias on my part; I grew up listening to that music. My brothers still do. Don't say I haven't heard the right artists, I have a hard drive containing something like 10,000 christian songs. I know what I'm talking about.  

Here are some exceptions to show that I don't simply think that all christian artists suck (which I don't listen to anymore because, well, you move on): Phil Keaggy's instrumental music, the guy's incredible; Matthew Ward's vocals, I don't care what he sings, his voice is just beautiful.... most of his songs are still crap tho; The Seventy Sevens, some of their lyrics are obscure enough not to tick me off and they're a really talented group, even if a lot of their work is derivative.

Quote from: "elliebean"Religious-inspired art = good

Religious propaganda posing as art = bad

Tell me about it. The lyrics to one worship song sound the same as any other worship song, although some of the Christian music outside of that are a little different. I think Casting Crowns' 'While You Were Sleeping' is one of the most preachy and repulsive. Some people would quickly have America turned into a theocracy.

Quote from: "Casting Crowns"Oh little town of Bethlehem
Looks like another silent night
Above your deep and dreamless sleep
A giant star lights up the sky
And while you're lying in the dark
There shines an everlasting light
For the King has left His throne
And is sleeping in a manger tonight, tonight

Oh Bethlehem, what you have missed while you were sleeping
For God became a man
And stepped into your world today
Oh Bethlehem, you will go down in history
As a city with no room for its King
While you were sleeping
While you were sleeping

Mary shivers in the cold
Trying to keep the Savior warm
Born among the animals wrapped in dirty rags
Because there was no room for Him in the world He came to save

United States of America
Looks like another silent night
As we're sung to sleep by philosophies
That save the trees and kill the children
And while we're lying in the dark
There's a shout heard 'cross the eastern sky
For the Bridegroom has returned
And has carried His bride away in the night

America, what will we miss while we are sleeping
Will Jesus come again
And leave us slumbering where we lay
America, will we go down in history
As a nation with no room for its King
Will we be sleeping
Will we be sleeping

United States of America
Looks like another silent night

And not all of the lame stuff is propaganda. Most of the new Christian music is simply filled with too much despair to actually be uplifting, or, ironically, not enough to make for good emo music (or at least not enough energy in the music and honesty in the lyrics). For the most part, modern Christian music is missing something; some sort of spark or passion.... or talent. A lot of the old religious composers and artists were really good though. The artists because, a lot of them didn't have any other choice in times such as the Renaissance. If you wanted to make a living as an artists you probably had to work for the church, which is where the money and market was at. The composers because they weren't boxed inside this genre where everything had to be "Christian". They expressed themselves through songwriting because they were compelled to do so by a feeling, not to meet the demands of a market, or, as elliebean noted, spread propaganda. Christians have really cheapened their religion with the new music out there... in my opinion.

It's like the producer says from the Johnny Cash movie, "you're dying; you got one chance to sing one song that tells them who you are; what you're about. And you're going to sing about how you've got the peace of Jesus within you?" Boring! Music is supposed to empower the listener. If everything's hunky doring that's not enough. Tunes can be happy and be good (Dave Matthews is the master at it and he's a Christian), but they still must own an exciting or interesting quality about them.

Quote from: "joeactor"(or Godspell or Dreamcoat if you prefer ;-)

I saw an original/rewritten production of Godspell that was incredible. Their version remains is one of my favorite musicals of all time.

Quote from: "Sophus"For the most part, modern Christian music is missing something; some sort of spark or passion.... or talent.

Good thing I wasn't drinking anything!

Absolutely...  I find the same with Christian produced stage productions.  It's either too preachy, or lacks the reality of an emotional spark.  Many of the ones I've seen come off as flat and lifeless (like a doll's eyes).

One good production I saw quite a while ago was called "God's Favorite", about Job.  Well acted with a wealth of emotion.  And let's face it, Job's a pretty tortured guy - makes for good reality tv... er, stage.

So, is it mostly Christianity that has cornered the market on bad art?
(not to say there isn't a ton of stellar stuff - gotta agree with the renaissance period comments)

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "Sophus"For the most part, modern Christian music is missing something; some sort of spark or passion.... or talent.

Good thing I wasn't drinking anything!

Absolutely...  I find the same with Christian produced stage productions.  It's either too preachy, or lacks the reality of an emotional spark.  Many of the ones I've seen come off as flat and lifeless (like a doll's eyes).

One good production I saw quite a while ago was called "God's Favorite", about Job.  Well acted with a wealth of emotion.  And let's face it, Job's a pretty tortured guy - makes for good reality tv... er, stage.

So, is it mostly Christianity that has cornered the market on bad art?
(not to say there isn't a ton of stellar stuff - gotta agree with the renaissance period comments)

I don't mean to make generalizations. What I've heard of Dave Crowder and Hillsong is actually not bad.
To be honest, the whole "popular" music industry is more about the glam than it is to do art for art's sake. More musicians are going independent because of the artistic sacrifices they have to make to record companies, because "this" sells but what you really want to do might not. Some artists and producers have straight up said they're in the business to be successful. Most people who have American-Idol-Fever crave to be famous and rich more than they have an earnest passion for making music. How many of the American Idol alumni even write their own songs? There's no drive to create and share, just a need to be famous and fulfill one's own desires. Perhaps this is why songwriter's suck more and more. The artistic integrity is going downhill because the music industry is huge now. This wasn't the case in 19th century and further back when often you had to go somewhere to listen to good music.

In the visual arts today, I don't find that it's something people crave to go into like the music industry but there have been a fair share of abstract pieces thrown together to try to make a quick buck.

Quote from: "joeactor"So, is it mostly Christianity that has cornered the market on bad art?

Nope!  Bad art is everywhere!  

And pop music - pop music is a beauty contest these days.  It sickens me that people were shocked when Susan Boyle did so well on Britian's Got Talent.  She can sing and that's bloody well what singers ought to be able to do.

Jerry Uelsmann (http://www.uelsmann.net/), btw, is a great religious photographer. You may pick up on some of the symbolism.

Quote from: "Sophus"Jerry Uelsmann (http://www.uelsmann.net/), btw, is a great religious photographer. You may pick up on some of the symbolism.

Whoa!  I could waste some time on that site...

Is it all done with the camera, or is it photoshopped after?

Tons of religious inspired art that I love, from the Renaissance artists, Baroque and Classical music, to church architecture itself. And nice reference to Quint, Joe! Loved it!

One of my favorite musical pieces is Handel's Messiah. It's just a phenomenal work, regardless of its subject. Modern works like "Jesus Christ, Superstar, et al. are pretty good, too (debatable, I know).

I find pretty much all religious dramatic stage production to be crappy though.

There seems to be a divide between art produced before religion was optional and everything since then. That is religious art was great, back when everything had to be religious. In contemporary art, literature, and entertainment, everything blatantly propagandist seems to be really, really bad, regardless of the message. But the christian stuff seems to have it's own brand of bad. You can hear it in their music even without understanding the words. It's like a lilting, wanna-be-edgy-but-can't stop-being-wholesome whininess.

I used to love the grandiosity of some of the traditional songs we  used to sing in church, and even the more upbeat ones from our hymnals, most of which were written in the 1930s. I've since learned that the majority of those melodies had been lifted from popular drinking songs of that time period. Imagine if they tried to pull something like that now. Oh wait... :eek2:

Ok, back to what we were talking about.  

Quote from: "joeactor"Whoa! I could waste some time on that site...

Is it all done with the camera, or is it photoshopped after?

Everything is done with camera but only the very recent stuff is photoshopped. Uelsmann has been around for a while. So almost everything on that site he manipulated the old fashion way (which is a huge pain). He finally switched over to photoshopping but they're not quite as good as when he was making these in the dark room, IMHO.

Quote from: "Whitney"There is a lot of great architecture due to the insanely high church building budgets.

This 50% of why Assassin's Creed I & II are so great.  Thanks churches!

I admit to listening to Wagner and liking it. In terms of my enjoyment of his music, I don't care about his views on Judaism.

Quote from: "joeactor"Mozart's Requiem (classical music)

Additionally: one of my favorites is Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor.

Quote from: "joeactor"Would the world be better without all of it? (ok, so that's a huge question).

A friend and I were discussing that very thing a few years ago while touring the Trammel Crow Collection of Asian Art.  My answer to him at the time was that I'm very glad of the patronage the vatican (and various more local instances of the catholic church) as well as various other religious and private institutions have made in the funding and furthering of various forms of art.  We are definitely better in that way for the various art they have helped come to exist.

I have two other issues, though:

1: Particularly with the more recent mono-theistic religions but also even with the older religions with greater deific variety, how many of the pieces of art are merely copies or slight reinterpretations of the same subject matter over and over.  Given how much richer the variety of topics they might have had to choose from, how many new styles or subjects might have developed if artists had been encouraged more toward the new and novel?

2: Also, when the new was made in some medium of art and then the most popular religion in an area changed due to time or new monarchs, how often were those types of art not fitting in with the top religious styles of the day ordered destroyed in some way.  As a modern example, it may have been an extremely common topic, and also might not matter for those that follow the tenets; but, consider the Buddhas of Bamyan that were notably destroyed by the Taliban in 2001.  Consider that art and science were long considered very similar in practice and the (possibly religiously motivated) destruction of the Library of Alexandria so many years ago.

In relation to those and more I could add if I didn't already get more long-winded than I intended, I don't hold that the world would be better without it (quite the contrary), but I do hold that the strangle-hold religion has previously held on the production of art has greatly been to the detriment of society at times.

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "Sophus"Jerry Uelsmann (http://www.uelsmann.net/), btw, is a great religious photographer. You may pick up on some of the symbolism.

Whoa!  I could waste some time on that site...

Is it all done with the camera, or is it photoshopped after?

Slightly off topic but...
If you like his work you may like this couple's
http://www.parkeharrison.com/
I like their older stuff  better (architect's brother).

I don't have anything to add to the main thread simply because I've never thought much about it. If something is beautiful to me I can enjoy it for it's beauty. I can find a sunset beautiful without thinking of the light being refacted by the Earth's atmosphere 93,000,000 miles from the huge fussion funace that created it 8 minutes before (though laid out it is kinda awsome). For me beauty is beauty regardless of the source.

(I don't know if this makes any sense I can't seem to figure the right words.)

Also.... Bob Dylan. He's wonderful no matter how crazy he is.

Quote from: "AlP"I admit to listening to Wagner and liking it. In terms of my enjoyment of his music, I don't care about his views on Judaism.

Every time I listen to Wagner I get this overwhelming urge to invade Poland.

I liked Dogma. Does that count?

Big pretty churches, religious paintings and statues are totally meh in my opinion.

Give me MC Escher any day.

Do they have to be current religions, or will any myth do?

Botticelli's Birth of Venus made me cry when I saw it in Florence.

If non-current is ok.....
Gregorian Chant

Current, 'chant infused' in some cases:
Enigma, Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo De Silos

I know a lot has already been said on this topic, but I'll still offer my 2c.

In my opinion, as long as I enjoy the music and the lyrics aren't too bad, I still enjoy it regardless of religion. Being a fan of musicals, Godspell is definitely one that I enjoy (at least some of the songs--including Day By Day, By My Side, and Turn Back O Man.

Outside of musicals, there's very few religious songs I listen to, having been tortured by a lot of bad hymns throughout my childhood years (even at seven, I was bored stiff by a lot of the "songs" sung in church; no rhyme and rhythm to them, and a lot of the time it was sung on one note and not by very good singers either). However, I enjoy listening to "Amazing Grace", especially by Hayley Westenra.

So, I think it's more of a personal thing, and much more than just to do with whether a song is religion-inspired or not--it's to do with the music as well, and good singing doesn't hurt either!

Hey!

I just posted this on a different topic, but I think it's actually more appropriate here

I just watched a film called THE EVANGELIST. I think atheists would totally enjoy it! I certainly did =) Totally funny and irreverent

Check out the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVI3VeSavtw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVI3VeSavtw)

You can watch it online starting July 6: http://theevangelistmovie.wordpress.com/web-premiere/ (http://theevangelistmovie.wordpress.com/web-premiere/)

Quote from: "KDbeads"If non-current is ok.....
Gregorian Chant

Current, 'chant infused' in some cases:
Enigma, Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo De Silos

Yeah, I listen to Enigma and Era and do have a particular liking for Gregorian Chants...when listening to them I hardly even remember they're christian music.

Theta and delta brain waves.