Happy Atheist Forum

So, I have a Muslim friend who is doing a survey about atheism and modesty.  She is genuinely interested in the views of atheists, and so it would really help her if you could fill out this quick survey:


Gender

Age

Religion/belief

In a few words explain your following answers

What does the word modesty mean to you?

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief?

Should modesty be modernized? Why or why not?

Why should modesty exist?

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation?

Religion/belief

Myself

Why not!

Gender - Male

Age - 21

Religion/belief - Atheist and is keen on Transhumanism

What does the word modesty mean to you? - (Without referring to a dictionary I assume?) Being humble, sophisticated reservation.

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief? - I have no religion nor belief, so I would have to say modesty is more a part of my character. Its purpose is not motivated by any outside interference.  

Should modesty be modernized? Why or why not? - Modesty should be more widely practised. Apart from that nothing needs to change.

Why should modesty exist? - To protect our integrity and of those around us. Too many times has emotion clouded a situation for me.

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation? - 1 being very modest and 3 being not very modest at all?  I find this difficult to answer as you can still be modest and be heavily critical of others ideas. Modesty, to me, is being able to receive criticism without resorting to baseless nonsense and compromising your integrity. While fully disclosing your own gaps in knowledge or evidence. I'll say 1.

Hope this helps.

I haven’t completed the census yet, so I’ll do this instead...

Religion/belief- atheist

In a few words explain your following answers

What does the word modesty mean to you?- humble. One who doesn’t inflate one’s self for some kind of gain or showman’s ship. Perhaps the word integrity can fit here... maybe not.

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief?- nothing. Just my personal belief.

Should modesty be modernized? Why or why not? Can modesty be modernized? If anything doesn’t keep up with society or become modernized it will be left behind.

Why should modesty exist? So people are not assholes.

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation? If a 1 is low and 3 is high:
Im to modest to rate myself as a 3. So ill say im a 2.

Gender
Female

Age
40

Religion/belief
Not applicable.  I have no religious belief.

In a few words explain your following answers

What does the word modesty mean to you?  Modesty has multiple definitions -
Modesty can mean being honest rather than inflating one's self-worth.
Modesty can also mean covering one's body.

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief?  
Nothing, there is no standardized system of beliefs for atheism.

Should modesty be modernized? Why or why not?
Which definition of modesty are you referring to?
Being honest rather than inflating one's self-worth really requires no modernization - it is what it is.

Covering one's body does, in my opinion need to be modernized.  The standard views on body covering stem from: viewing the female body as property, seeing the human body as shameful rather than as an amazing thing, associating the body with sin, an assumption that all men are rapists if they see enough skin, jealousy and a fear of other men seeing and desiring the females that are their property, and other, mostly patriarchy, property, and religion-based ideas.  

I think that modesty regarding the human body should be modernized.  A person should be able to walk around wearing whatever they are comfortable with.  In a civilized society, no one is owned by anyone else and women are not property to be unwrapped only by a buyer or owner.  Men also need to realize that no matter what a woman wears, other men are going to look at her.

Why should modesty exist?  
Modesty of the not inflating one's self-worth variety should exist to keep people from being rude, overbearing, and annoying.

Modesty of the covering ones body variety should exist as a personal, rather than societal choice.  It should exist so that those who feel uncomfortable with their own bodies can conceal them if they wish.

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation?

Religion/belief
Not applicable.

Myself
In regard to being honest rather than inflating my own self-worth, I would guess I would rate a one.  I often keep my accomplishments to myself.

In regard to covering my body, I have a poor body image so I would also rate myself a one.  I am not pleased with how my body looks so I cover it.  However, I do not cover my face or hair even if I am displeased with them.

Gender female

Age  28

Religion/beliefAn all religions athiest

In a few words explain your following answers

What does the word modesty mean to you?  The first thing I think about is keeping my body to myself and when the mood is right my husband.  The next thing is not thinking too much of myself.  I think taking credit when due is good because false modesty is worse than no modesty at all.

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief?I'm not sure about other athiests but I guess my first thoughts about modesty and keeping your body covered has really nothing to do with being an athiest.  I personally feel very uncomfortable if too much of myself is showing, it embarasses me when my husband tells me at the end of the day that you could see what color my bra was or something like that.  I think the other type of modesty comes into play when I remind myself that my beliefs do not make me any smarter or better than anyone else.  

Should modesty be modernized? Why or why not?Um I'm not totally sure what you mean other than in the covering your body sense.  Yes I think now days there's too much showing...like you're a weirdo if you prefer a one piece.

Why should modesty exist?To keep everyone's heads from exploding.  Each person is entitled to think and believe how they want to, being an athiest it would be pretty hypocritical of me to think my beliefs make me better than others.

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation?Like a one being not modest at all and a three being super modest in both senses of the word 2.859999999999999999...

Religion/beliefathiest

Myself

Can you have your friend clarify the poll questions?  A lot of it really doesn't make any sense.

Gender
Girl <3

Age
20 years, 3 months, 25 days.

Religion/belief
Strong Atheist
Anti-Christian
Anti-Abrahamic
Secular Humanism
Zen Buddhist

--In a few words explain your following answers

What does the word modesty mean to you?
I consider myself modest because my skirts, shorts, dresses, and tops are not genuinely seductive in nature, purpose, or application.

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief?
I do not believe in any supernatural elements, worlds, realms, places, people, or events.

Should modesty be modernized? Why or why not?
Muslim women should not be treated as if they were property.

Why should modesty exist?
Supply and Demand.

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation?
My "religious beliefs" make no claims involving modesty, therefore are not interpretable, and hence forth can't be rated.

Religion/belief
Religion is a regime dedicated to control.

Myself
I love horseback riding <3!

Hey guys,
I guess I would be the muslim friend, I wanted to thank you guys for your time helping me out. I just wanted to make it a bit clear, my friend forgot to include this. So basically what I am doing is a research project about modesty in various religions and idealogies. This exact survey is the one that I have been sending to all other people from different religions, that is why some questions may not be understandable, so anybody else who may fill out the survey could just keep the ununderstandable questions blank. I also wanted to make it clear that as most people believe that a women in Islam is considered an object, and although this may not make much sense to some of you, a women covers her hair and body because she is considered precious, not an object that any man could look at or check out. I am sure that this idea may not click to some of you, but I would still hope you could respect my religion the same way I respect your belief.
Thanks

Gender: female

Age: 28

[strike:3l75o710]Religion/belief[/strike:3l75o710]/philosophy: freethought

What does the word modesty mean to you?: Hiding sexuality.

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief? n/a

Should modesty be modernized?Why or why not? You can't modernize the act of covering up one's sexuality...you either cover up or you don't.  What can be modernized is what is deemed 'sexual' in respect to what is displayed in public.

Why should modesty exist? It is only necessary in situations where flaunting is not productive/appropriate; such as the workplace.  Other than that there is no reason why anyone ought to have to be modest.

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation? this question doesn't make sense

Quote from: "barbaricpink94"Hey guys,
I guess I would be the muslim friend, I wanted to thank you guys for your time helping me out. I just wanted to make it a bit clear, my friend forgot to include this. So basically what I am doing is a research project about modesty in various religions and idealogies. This exact survey is the one that I have been sending to all other people from different religions, that is why some questions may not be understandable, so anybody else who may fill out the survey could just keep the ununderstandable questions blank. I also wanted to make it clear that as most people believe that a women in Islam is considered an object, and although this may not make much sense to some of you, a women covers her hair and body because she is considered precious, not an object that any man could look at or check out. I am sure that this idea may not click to some of you, but I would still hope you could respect my religion the same way I respect your belief.
Thanks

Will you publish the results on this website when your finished? Also, from your post I am wondering if this should be a female only poll?

Yeah I'll try my best to do that, actually what I have been doing is on my initial survey(the one I have been passing out by hand) I have a section where you could place your email if you want to know the results, and I will forward it. So, so far I can only get done 3 religions/ideologies/philosophies done, that is Hinduism, Atheism, and Islam, and I will be working on others later. So far, in Islam, and Hinduism, modesty applies to both genders, so I would also hope this survey would be filled out by both genders. If there is some part of your question I dont understand, then let me know.

I attached the initial survey, i first attached the old one, but here is the edited one

I believe i send u the old survey i had, but here is the new one

Quote from: "fortunastoryteller"So, I have a Muslim friend who is doing a survey about atheism and modesty.  She is genuinely interested in the views of atheists, and so it would really help her if you could fill out this quick survey:


Gender

Age

Religion/belief

In a few words explain your following answers

What does the word modesty mean to you?

What do you believe modesty means in your religion/belief?

Should modesty be modernized? Why or why not?

Why should modesty exist?

Rate yourself from 1-3 to how modest you are in regards to your religion/belief, and to your interpretation?

Religion/belief

Myself

barbaricpink94 , did you know you can use google docs to create forms that people can fill out and it automatically places their answers in a database on google docs?

http://docs.google.com/ (http://docs.google.com/)

Yeah I know of googles docs stuff, but the way I wanted my info put together, I couldn't figure out how ot work out, but the way I will be putting my data together will be easy enough. But thanks

Quote from: "Whitney"barbaricpink94 , did you know you can use google docs to create forms that people can fill out and it automatically places their answers in a database on google docs?

http://docs.google.com/ (http://docs.google.com/)

So I made a survey monkey account, and I created the survey, so if you guys could fill it out here that would be great, if you already have, could you forward the link to others. Thanks! The link is http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/F659C33 (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/F659C33)

Quote from: "barbaricpink94"Hey guys,
 most people believe that a women in Islam is considered an object, and although this may not make much sense to some of you, a women covers her hair and body because she is considered precious, not an object that any man could look at or check out. I am sure that this idea may not click to some of you, but I would still hope you could respect my religion the same way I respect your belief.
Thanks

Do you really think that the act of approaching a full half of the human race as an "object" is something we should respect? I hope not. The idea not only cannot be respected it is loathsome. It should "click" with no one. And if it does you should be ashamed of yourself.

Quote from: "dogsmycopilot"

Quote from: "barbaricpink94"Hey guys,
 most people believe that a women in Islam is considered an object, and although this may not make much sense to some of you, a women covers her hair and body because she is considered precious, not an object that any man could look at or check out. I am sure that this idea may not click to some of you, but I would still hope you could respect my religion the same way I respect your belief.
Thanks

Do you really think that the act of approaching a full half of the human race as an "object" is something we should respect? I hope not. The idea not only cannot be respected it is loathsome. It should "click" with no one. And if it does you should be ashamed of yourself.

Lol oops?

anywho, i would say a woman covers her hair and body because she is controlled. she may be precious yes, but not precious enough….

Qur'an- 23:5 "Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave girls for these are lawful property to them)...

Qur'an- 2:282 "...and call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witness as you approve of, that if one women errs the other will remind her."

Qur’an- 4:34 "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."

Yeah its precious. Grant it many muslims may treat women differently but this sounds more like control as opposed to preciousness….

Hey, guys.  barbaricpink is just trying to get some honest opinions here, not to hear her religion bashed.  In order to really understand what it's like to be in her shoes, one really has to immerse oneself in the Islamic way.  I used to think that al'hijab was oppressive until I decided to try wearing one.  Covering one's hair and body might seem extreme to most people, but it all boils down to fashion.  Do I think that women should be FORCED to wear garments if they don't want to?  Of course not!  But barbaricpink and my other friends wear al'hijab because they WANT to.  

tl;dr, actually try to walk in her shoes a little before you start telling her she ought not dress the way she does or believes what she wants.

Quote from: "fortunastoryteller"Hey, guys.  barbaricpink is just trying to get some honest opinions here, not to hear her religion bashed.  In order to really understand what it's like to be in her shoes, one really has to immerse oneself in the Islamic way.  I used to think that al'hijab was oppressive until I decided to try wearing one.  Covering one's hair and body might seem extreme to most people, but it all boils down to fashion.  Do I think that women should be FORCED to wear garments if they don't want to?  Of course not!  But barbaricpink and my other friends wear al'hijab because they WANT to.  

tl;dr, actually try to walk in her shoes a little before you start telling her she ought not dress the way she does or believes what she wants.

First, to truly avoid confusion, your friend should speak for herself.  

Second, re-read the thread.  Until your friend chose to post and interject her opinions, every post was an honest response to her survey or a question about the survey.  Your friend started the conversation about her personal beliefs when she posted them.

I honestly don't believe you or your friend have any reason to be upset.  People will probably comment on the things you've said as well.  This is a forum, when you comment, people will likely respond to your comment - that's pretty much the sole purpose of a forum.

Quote from: "fortunastoryteller"Hey, guys.  barbaricpink is just trying to get some honest opinions here, not to hear her religion bashed.  In order to really understand what it's like to be in her shoes, one really has to immerse oneself in the Islamic way.  I used to think that al'hijab was oppressive until I decided to try wearing one.  Covering one's hair and body might seem extreme to most people, but it all boils down to fashion.  Do I think that women should be FORCED to wear garments if they don't want to?  Of course not!  But barbaricpink and my other friends wear al'hijab because they WANT to.  

tl;dr, actually try to walk in her shoes a little before you start telling her she ought not dress the way she does or believes what she wants.

^until just then no one knew your friend was a she; I think you are taking things a bit too personal.

With all due respect....this forum isn't set up for data collection but rather for debate/discussion.  If that is a problem for you or your friend then...well...don't post here at all.

As for Mulsim women covering themselves.  I have been friends with a muslim woman who came to the US as an exchange student and therefore was totally free from being socially pressured to cover herself; within a year she was no longer wearing even a head scarf.  She said she felt a bit naked at first but that it was very liberating to not have to cover up; I don't think she went back home.  

I also know women who do wear a head scarf even though they are in the US but they are also a part of the local Mulsim community and I don't know them well enough to ask why they wear the scarf and get anything more than the 'appropriate' answer.

I think the answer here really is - are you doing the survey or not.

If you want to debate Islamic attire, maybe we should create another thread. As this does not seem like the place for it.

fortunastoryteller - survey done. Hope it helps.

Quote from: "fortunastoryteller"Hey, guys.  barbaricpink is just trying to get some honest opinions here, not to hear her religion bashed.  In order to really understand what it's like to be in her shoes, one really has to immerse oneself in the Islamic way.  I used to think that al'hijab was oppressive until I decided to try wearing one.  Covering one's hair and body might seem extreme to most people, but it all boils down to fashion.  Do I think that women should be FORCED to wear garments if they don't want to?  Of course not!  But barbaricpink and my other friends wear al'hijab because they WANT to.  

tl;dr, actually try to walk in her shoes a little before you start telling her she ought not dress the way she does or believes what she wants.

I respectfully, yet completely disagree. You do not have to spend a day as a slave to know slavery is wrong. I think it needs to be said, too. I'm not arguing to be contrary, although I do that on occasion, I genuinely think this subjectivism is a big part of the problem today. We know this stuff is wrong, yet we hesitate to say so to be culturally sensitive. That's just cowardly and wrong (and spoiled western.) It is oppression, it is not fashion at all.   Rage Against the Veil!

Quote from: "dogsmycopilot"

Quote from: "fortunastoryteller"Hey, guys.  barbaricpink is just trying to get some honest opinions here, not to hear her religion bashed.  In order to really understand what it's like to be in her shoes, one really has to immerse oneself in the Islamic way.  I used to think that al'hijab was oppressive until I decided to try wearing one.  Covering one's hair and body might seem extreme to most people, but it all boils down to fashion.  Do I think that women should be FORCED to wear garments if they don't want to?  Of course not!  But barbaricpink and my other friends wear al'hijab because they WANT to.  

tl;dr, actually try to walk in her shoes a little before you start telling her she ought not dress the way she does or believes what she wants.

I respectfully, yet completely disagree. You do not have to spend a day as a slave to know slavery is wrong. I think it needs to be said, too. I'm not arguing to be contrary, although I do that on occasion, I genuinely think this subjectivism is a big part of the problem today. We know this stuff is wrong, yet we hesitate to say so to be culturally sensitive. That's just cowardly and wrong (and spoiled western.) It is oppression, it is not fashion at all.   Rage Against the Veil!

Yeah, omfg seriously like for real.  But I think even you are stuck in the quagmire of subjectivism!  How dare western countries even have laws forcing people to not be nude!  Forcing people to wear ANY clothes is oppression!  Rage against all laws!!!

/end sarcasm

I'm not supporting "the Veil," I'm just popping in to comment on how inconsistent your stance is.  All laws are basically 'agreed' oppression, so why exactly do you draw the line on 'the Veil'?  Why not all laws regarding clothes?  If it is the oppression that bothers you, why is a 'big' oppression (veil) worse than a 'small' oppression (non-nude laws)?

-Ihateusernames

PS: granted, I suppose, if you are an anarchist, it makes sense....  but my guess is you aren't.

From a purely data driven perspective, that survey is very poorly designed, you will have a lot of trouble getting any respected peer reviewed journal to publish your research based on that survey. In general, long, descriptive and qualitative answers make for poor instruments when trying to gauge consensus of a view amongst a specific community, although multiple choice, or agree/disagree questions are certainly a blunter instrument in an individual sense, they are much more useful when trying to collate data for a subset of the population. In order to improve your survey I would suggest "
Research Methods and Statistics in Psychology" by Coolican, while only an A level standard (end of highschool) of maths is required to understand it, I feel you would get more if you at least had the beginning of an undergrad mathematical education. This is the standard textbook prescribed by my university's psychology department, and some of the more adventurous students come into our statistics courses to further their understanding. Once you have read the book, why not compose another survey?

/Contribution

Quote from: "Ihateusernames"Yeah, omfg seriously like for real.

Ok, that tells me all I need to know.

Quote from: "Ihateusernames"PS: granted, I suppose, if you are an anarchist, it makes sense....  but my guess is you aren't.

Then your guess would be as wrong as that childish language used above. I am quite anti christ, thank you.

Anarchist not Antichrist

When clothes are optional people get used to occassional nudity.  It becomes a non-issue, and I don't think that there is anything immodest about that.

Is it really all that traumatising when your neighbor's kid runs streaking down the road?

QuoteHey, guys.  barbaricpink is just trying to get some honest opinions here

she now has mine.

Quotenot to hear her religion bashed.

yawn....

QuoteCovering one's hair and body might seem extreme to most people, but it all boils down to fashion.  Do I think that women should be FORCED to wear garments if they don't want to?  Of course not!  But barbaricpink and my other friends wear al'hijab because they WANT to.

article written by Christina Hoff Sommers

QuoteThe subjection of women in Muslim societies--especially in Arab nations and in Iran--is today very much in the public eye. Accounts of lashings, stonings, and honor killings are regularly in the news, and searing memoirs by Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Azar Nafisi have become major best-sellers.

from islam for today.

QuoteStrangely, when a Muslim woman's Islamic rights are violated, many organizations are eager to speak out and petition.  For example, when Merve Kavacki was denied her seat in the Turkish Parliament because of her headscarf (and later stripped of her citizenship), Muslim groups were quick to condemn the Turkish government, as they should have.  In many Western Muslim circles, Merve has been elevated to a symbol of the struggle muhajabat women face in secular societies.

Yet there is a resounding silence when the issue being raised is Female Genital Mutilation (FGM), honor killings, forced marriages, the unequal application of hadd punishments on women, or the denial of education to girls and women.  All of these wrongs are perpetrated on women in the name of Islam.  While it is true that many of these violations occur across cultural and religious boundaries, the only action often taken by conservative Muslims is a condemnation of the action because it is "cultural" and not Islamic.  Meanwhile, women continue to be murdered and little girls continue to be mutilated.

Quoteactually try to walk in her shoes a little before you start telling her she ought not dress the way she does or believes what she wants.

no one is saying what she should wear and what she should not wear. no one is saying what she should believe and what she shouldnt believe. my argument lies in the treatment of women in islamic societies. not all islamic societies and not by all muslims. but would you (either of you) argue that women have equal rights as men in islam and islamic societies?

Quotethink the answer here really is - are you doing the survey or not.

If you want to debate Islamic attire, maybe we should create another thread. As this does not seem like the place for it.

fortunastoryteller - survey done. Hope it helps.

actually this post is on topic. and has gone unanswered.... perhaps because all the poster wanted was to place a survey...