Happy Atheist Forum

ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views? Or if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views? I hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?  So please give me some feedback on how you would react and wether it would be life changing for you.

Regarding the miracle: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." What constitutes a miracle is totally subjective. One person's miracle is another person's magnet trick.

Regarding the friend: been there, done that, wasn't convinced. Felt sad for him, actually. He had a "re-awakening to God" after blacking out at the wheel after a night of drinking and smashing into a telephone pole. It hit on the passenger side and he wasn't harmed too badly. That's not God sending you a message; that's Jack Daniels spanking your ass. Our brains are wired to accept thoughts of the supernatural readily; it's part of how we evolved. Remember, if you think a vengeful god or a werewolf will kill you for going into a swamp at night, you're probably going to live to pass your genes on. We've moved on from that, though. That religious part of our brains is truly vestigial.

Regarding the evidence: I think we'd have to decide exactly what constitutes evidence for the supernatural. Technically, what is considered supernatural is only what defies our definition of the natural. To most people, what goes on at the quantum scale is utterly supernatural. One thing being in two places simultaneously? Sounds supernatural to me. It isn't.

In short, given what we know about neuroscience and the universe, I think the chances of the appearance of any conscious and willing supernatural force (i.e., God) popping up is approaching zero.

Maybe it's my background in psychology but personal experience just wouldn't necessarily do it for me.  If one of my friends claimed they had a spiritual experience my actual honest initial reaction would be to wonder if they just got out of rehab or if they need a mental health evaluation.  People's personal claims and personal experience are just too unreliable from other people and my own perception.  Now, if excavators pulled a big ass, old iron age wooden ship off of Mt. Ararat then that would be more down the lines of something that would make me take notice.  Just remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If I saw a miracle with my own two eyes that had no explanation other than supernatural forces, I'd certainly listen to what they had to say, but I'd remain a skeptic.

Quote from: "dionysiou"If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

What makes you think they haven't?

And the answer is no; when something unexplained occurs, it's still unexplained, even if someone claims it was from god. Until they prove a god was responsible for it (they would first have to prove a god existed - not gonna happen), or until some other explaination is proven to be the likeliest cause, the event remains unexplained.

Quote...if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views?

Let's not forget, many of us are products of religious households. My entire family - hundreds of people - are all biblical literalists. I've heard my share of stories. I'm not impressed. I was a christian for many years. I used to think I was having those kinds of experiences, too. But I've grown more discerning since then. Obviously.

I've had a relative claiming to have visions. Not that they were anything spectacular. Things like having an OBE while dreaming and seeing me lying down upstairs exactly as I really was when she came up to find me. Not only would I have to be the one experiencing it but I would still be skeptical it means anything supernatural because our memory from dreams fade hastily, and any "specific details" could be fudged. Especially with such strong credulity to believe in the supernatural.

If by miracle, you mean a burning bush, a parted sea or a man walking on water, I would hopefully consider that I may have gone insane.

As for other miracles such as winning the lottery or a random act of kindness coming at just the right time... when the improbable happens to us it might feel like a miracle, but it's just the way things work out. Plus our minds are in a searching mode for any sort of an answer from God.

I would have the person enter this:

QuoteAt JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html)

but seriously, my grandmother claimed that my grandfather visited her after his death on more than one occasion....she was very serious about thinking this happened and I'm sure she did have that experience but I think she actually had it in her sleep.  After all, if our dead relatives were really able to visit us after their deaths would it not make sense for them to make sure to say their final goodbyes to all their close relatives?  In this particular case the person that really needed a visit (if for whatever reason they could only pic one person) was my mom because she needed to be snapped out of the state she was in at the time.  So, it really just didn't make any sense so while I wanted to believe by grandmother (and pretended that I did believe her) I couldn't buy her story....and this happened while I was still a theist.

Quote from: "dionysiou"ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

No.

so from what im reading it would have to be something that YOU know was supernatural and that YOU couldnt deny. Even then it wouldnt be enough for some of you, maybe youd need another miracle on top of it. a lot of skeptics

Quote from: "dionysiou"so from what im reading it would have to be something that YOU know was supernatural and that YOU couldnt deny. Even then it wouldnt be enough for some of you, maybe youd need another miracle on top of it. a lot of skeptics

If a pink puppy walked up to me and then said "Jesus died for your sins" then winked at me on a daily basis, I would start believing.

 thats one supernatural form of evidence

You know..some people think that aliens visited ancient civilizations and that is how this whole god business started.  While I don't think aliens visited us it does illustrate how what seems miraculous during a certain time period may just be very advanced science.

For me personally it would depend on if it truly were a miracle and that I wasn't just being tricked, that it happened more than once, and that it was the type of miracle that could only point to the existence of a god.

dionysiou,

There is a classic question for Christians such as yourself.  Perhaps you can answer it for me.  Why doesn't your god heal amputees?

When an Veteran from the Iraqi War has his or her amputated leg restored through prayer to your god, then I might consider that a miracle.

although i myself have never seen amputated limbs being healed, friends of mine have claimed they saw it, one in particular was on a crusade in russia and he tells me God was healing amputated limbs there. I trust his words because he has no reason to lie to me, but you dont know me personally so it may be hard for you to take my word for it.

Quote from: "dionysiou"ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

Right on the spot ... absolutely not.  Let's look back in time for a moment (so to speak) back to the Ancient Greeks.  They built these grand temples that people would flock to because the gods powers could be seen.  These elaborate inventions simulated magic which amazed the masses and all the temples were looking for the next big attraction.  Just because you are unable to explain something and someone claims its the power of their god doesn't mean that this something is unexplainable or that their claim is true.  

This question reminds me of part of "godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists" by Dan Barker.  For a little while in his youth Dan was part of a stage crew for a "faith healer".  He recalls how sometimes when people in line waiting to get on stage were asked to sit in a wheelchair before getting on and when they wheeled about halfway on stage the "healer" would say, "Stop and stand up and walk over here!"  The crowd would just assume that the person was bound to a wheelchair and would be "healed" and be able to walk again by the power of the Christian god.    

Quote from: "dionysiou"Or if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views?

Why should I believe someone else's "spiritual experience"?  Don't get me wrong i'm not saying that they are lying i'm just saying they are probably not being objective.  Like curiosityandthecat's friend.  Also if your god gave someone else this "experience" to save them from hell then why not give me that experience?  If your god is all knowing and wants to do so he can present himself to me in a way that would remove all doubt.  He hasn't done this to me like he did to my hypothetical friend, but he could do it and yet choses not to.    He must want me to burn in hell.  Otherwise he would do it.  So either that is the case or my friend is mistaken and there probably isn't any divine intervention (or divine being).

Quote from: "dionysiou"I hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?  So please give me some feedback on how you would react and wether it would be life changing for you.

If there was evidence for a god's existence then I'd believe in a god.  I have pretty strict standards for evidence though.  I wouldn't be swayed by a vision or random chance.  I would need objective evidence that can be tested.  If I saw a god appear to me in a vision or something I would honestly think i'm hallucinating.  Also in the thousands of years religion has existed and these beings called gods have been worshiped there has been no objective evidence for their existence.  Not even a shred.  We live in a godless universe, that is what the evidence (and lack there of) point to.

Quote from: "dionysiou"although i myself have never seen amputated limbs being healed, friends of mine have claimed they saw it, one in particular was on a crusade in russia and he tells me God was healing amputated limbs there. I trust his words because he has no reason to lie to me, but you dont know me personally so it may be hard for you to take my word for it.

I'm sorry if that were true then scientists would be flocking to Russia to figure out why it happened.  I wouldn't go so far to say your friend is lying to you, he could honestly be mistaken or have fallen for someones trick.  However I wouldn't accept this claim at face value just because you don't think he'd lie to you.

Hi dionysiou,

I'll get my welcome to you and my reply in all at once.  Welcome!  

The evidence in your hypothetical scenario is no evidence at all.  Seeing is not evidence.  Many things that can be seen are deceiving.  Here are two simple examples:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi284.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll25%2FEvolveds_Photos%2Foptical-illusion-wheels-circles-rot.png&hash=81913bfd00eab6e96cd37692652cefa59de9c271)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi284.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll25%2FEvolveds_Photos%2Fillusion_ouchi2.gif&hash=b8dcb3e2c49565bd930286b339748198658c9dbd)

They look like moving, animated .gifs, right?  This is just one situation where our eyes are seeing things one way, and are brains are telling us something else.  Our brains do an amazing job, most of the time, of giving us an accurate picture of what's in front of us (or what we hear, or feel, etc.).  But sometimes, when we are confronted with stuff that our brains can't properly interpret, it fills in the blanks.  

This is why we can see faces in the clouds.  Our brains take a bit that looks like eyes, and a bit that looks like a nose, and fills in the rest.  This is also why people see 'visions' of biblical figures on water-stained windows, on a burnt piece of toast, and in smoke rising from the World Trade Center disaster.

Similar phenomena also occur when we try to process auditory and tactile input.

Let's look at the possibilities for your friend's story:

1.  They misinterpreted what they saw (as above).
2.  They are lying.
3.  They are crazy.
4.  They witnessed a miracle.

Now, you're talking to a bunch of intelligent, skeptical people.  Which do you think would be their first choice of answers?  Which would be the last?

I met Mother Teresa, a "living saint."  The woman was a bitch to me. (This was before I was anti-religion).  Her big miracle to qualify for sainthood was "the healing of a tumor in the abdomen of an Indian woman, Monica Besra, following the application of a locket containing Mother Teresa's picture. Besra said that a beam of light emanated from the picture, curing the cancerous tumor."

However...

"Dr. Ranjan Mustafi, who told the New York Times he had treated Besra, said that the cyst was not cancer at all but a cyst caused by tuberculosis. He insisted, "It was not a miracle…. She took medicines for nine months to one year." So, Mother Teresa wasn't even THERE when she "performed" her big miracle, and the attending physician said it was crap.

Truth is, this is what you "see" of miracles in the real world. Fanciful stories that require "faith" to believe.

alright so some people believe and some people dont. The continous message im hearing though is even if they do happen, they are rare and there are many frauds and fakes. But if you DID see a miracle which you knew yourself was true then you would rethink things. I think you guys make sense, your all skeptical but you dont want to completely rule it out. this is interesting stuff guys.

QuoteThe continous message im hearing though is even if they do happen, they are rare and there are many frauds and fakes.

I really do appreciate your interest.  The flaw in your thinking (at least I think) is that there have been no miracles that have ever been scientifically tested and verified.  None.  Nada.  Zero.  I suppose this is where 'faith' comes in, but faith to me is nothing more than lazy thinking.  It's healthy to be a skeptic.

Quote from: "dionysiou"alright so some people believe and some people dont. The continous message im hearing though is even if they do happen, they are rare and there are many frauds and fakes. But if you DID see a miracle which you knew yourself was true then you would rethink things. I think you guys make sense, your all skeptical but you dont want to completely rule it out. this is interesting stuff guys.

If I saw a miracle how would I know the Christian god was responsible?

I think that if I witnessed/experienced something that I and others can't explain (logically or scientifically) then yes I would think that God was up to something. The definition of "miracle" is about a physical world event that surpasses human comprehension. What are we supposed to do?

Quote from: "Evolved"I really do appreciate your interest. The flaw in your thinking (at least I think) is that there have been no miracles that have ever been scientifically tested and verified. None. Nada. Zero. I suppose this is where 'faith' comes in, but faith to me is nothing more than lazy thinking. It's healthy to be a skeptic.

Most miracles basically belong to the eye of the beholder. I can search online and literally read tons of "miracles", of course I'm going to be skeptical.
But that is just how humans operate. We constantly are searching for answers, proof of what the physical world throws at us. So when we come across something we can't explain (maybe even never will even understand) then what?

Basically yes, "faith" does come into picture here.
But don't you have in fact have "faith" in your disbelief in God? I don't think it is lazy thinking.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"But don't you have in fact have "faith" in your disbelief in God?

I have as much faith involved in not thinking God is real as you have in not thinking Zeus or unicorns are real.  It doesn't take faith to think something that has no evidence of existence (aside from personal accounts) probably isn't real.  Plenty of people claim to have seen the Loch Ness monster.  I think that they think they did I but I don't think they actually saw Nessie.  Why is not believing in one myth or legend any different from not believing in another?




[edited for grammar]

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"But don't you have in fact have "faith" in your disbelief in God?

Faith is believing in a positive when there are no positives for it. Kylyssa's right, you can't have faith in what you do not believe in.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"The definition of "miracle" is about a physical world event that surpasses human comprehension.

Flight use to be beyond human comprehension; yet we eventually were able to master it and continue to improve on that science today.  

That is just one example of why we should be careful to jump to conclusions when faced with something we do not understand.

All religions have their 'miracles' so either all the religions are right and god has multiple personality disorder   or most religions are out to fool everyone with their miracle claims or they are all incorrect and simply didn't try hard enough to find the explanation for the miracle or are flat out lying because they like attention.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"I think that if I witnessed/experienced something that I and others can't explain (logically or scientifically) then yes I would think that God was up to something. The definition of "miracle" is about a physical world event that surpasses human comprehension. What are we supposed to do?

Say we don't know instead of making up an answer...

QuoteSo when we come across something we can't explain (maybe even never will even understand) then what?

Say that we currently can't explain it instead of making up an answer....

QuoteBut don't you have in fact have "faith" in your disbelief in God?

No.  My lack of belief in God is simply a lack of belief.  It is not a belief itself (see the responses from Kylyssa and Sophus - they put it quite well).  To put it another way, what are your feelings about a purple gremlin hiding under your bed that can only be seen when you're not looking at him?  Do you believe that he's not there?  Or do you know that he's not there?  Would you feel ridiculous if you said, 'well, I believe that he's not there, but I can't prove it'?

QuoteMost miracles basically belong to the eye of the beholder. I can search online and literally read tons of "miracles", of course I'm going to be skeptical.
But that is just how humans operate. We constantly are searching for answers, proof of what the physical world throws at us. So when we come across something we can't explain (maybe even never will even understand) then what?

So then whenever you come across something you can't explain, it must be God?  Why?  My response would be to investigate, if whatever it was that I experienced was important enough to me for me to investigate.  With scientific reasoning.  Not mystical explanations.

QuoteI don't think it is lazy thinking.

To the ancient Egyptians, who controlled the sky?  Ra.  To the Mayans, who controlled lightening, thunder, and rain?  Chac.  To the Cherokee, who created dry land?  Dayunsi.

Now we think that these guys were silly - rather now we know that they were trying their best to understand the natural world.  Now we also know that the movement of the planets and the stars is governed by the Law of General Relativity.  We know how lightening is generated, and why it rains.  We know that dry land formed when the Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago from the solar nebula.

I don't think that the ancient Egyptians, the Mayans, and the Cherokee were particularly lazy.  However, do you think that it might be possible that their beliefs might be different if they knew what we know?  I would venture to say yes.

So now we have an abundance of scientific evidence for the evolution of the solar system, the evolution of man, and many physical laws.  Granted, they take some discipline to learn, but we do have them.  Why would you think that God is responsible for any of these things if we have other ways to explain them, especially if what you believe in has no evidence?  I call that lazy.  Lazy because attributing the unknown to a god requires no discipline.  Just faith.

Ha, this is interesting I like this.

Here lies the problem.
We all know that In order to have a belief in something we have to acknowledge its existence.
There is no proof that God exists/doesn't exist.

So basically we cannot "believe in God" because we cannot prove he exists/doesn't exist.
Faith is a belief is something that is not based on proof though... so...

Quote from: "Sophus"Faith is believing in a positive when there are no positives for it.

I have faith in the belief that God exists.
And you have faith in the belief that God doesn't exist.
Is this logic right? I'm a slow thinker...

Quote from: "Whitney"Flight use to be beyond human comprehension; yet we eventually were able to master it and continue to improve on that science today.

Flight was never beyond human comprehension because we saw it in flying creatures.
I'm talking about miracles. Divine intervention! (i.e. Samuel L. Jackson Pulp Fiction scene) I'm going off of the main topic here so what if... Something that happens, like a bus going going 60miles/hour, the brakes are cut and it can't stop, suddenly just stops as it's about to hit a pedestrian. What would you think?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Say we don't know instead of making up an answer...

So you are just content with just saying...Well that bus should've killed them and it just stopped out of the blue. Oh well, who gives a ****?
It's more of a question about logic. If it can't be rationally explained then we just don't know, we shouldn't pin this on God.

BTW * bus thing is an example

Quote from: "Evolved"So then whenever you come across something you can't explain, it must be God? Why? My response would be to investigate, if whatever it was that I experienced was important enough to me for me to investigate. With scientific reasoning. Not mystical explanations.

Because there are things that we can't explain! I like to think of it like coincidence or fate.
Do atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?
Explain to me then why just randomly (I know everyone as thought this) you think to yourself...What the heck am I, Who am I??
Why on earth are we the only ones with rational thought? I know, I know yeaarrss of evolution at work. Evolution is great, I believe it. But the fact that we can think rationally just blows my mind.
It simply doesn't make sense to me, someone explain this...

EDIT * I'm sorry though, I digress. I should probably just start another topic about this stuff...

I still don't know about the faith = lazy thinking though..I'm getting what you are saying, it just isn't sinking in right now for me.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"

QuoteFaith is believing in a positive when there are no positives for it.

I have faith in the belief that God exists.
And you have faith in the belief that God doesn't exist.
Is this logic right? I'm a slow thinker...

While it takes faith to believe a positive when there is no positive evidence for it, there is no faith involved in believing the negative when there is no positive evidence for it.

You cannot prove a negative, and you cannot know a negative, but the default position is still... a negative.

Let's take a step back.  Exactly how much faith do you have in your belief that the Loch Ness Monster does not exist?  If someone came in with its carcass tomorrow would your faith be shaken, or would you just be like, "HOLY CRAP!!!  THAT THING WAS REAL????  THAT . IS.  AWESOME," like I would?

I mean, there's no evidence that the Loch Ness Monster does not exist, right?

Quotethe fact that we can think rationally just blows my mind.

I don't think humans are all that smart.  I mean, just yesterday I saw someone lick their way across the road for some lunch money... never mind that they were unable to eat the lunch by the time they had abraded their tongue that much.  And yet, they are still able to pass on their genes, so natural selection does not work on them.  This time

Quote from: "Ellainix"

Quote from: "dionysiou"so from what im reading it would have to be something that YOU know was supernatural and that YOU couldnt deny. Even then it wouldnt be enough for some of you, maybe youd need another miracle on top of it. a lot of skeptics

If a pink puppy walked up to me and then said "Jesus died for your sins" then winked at me on a daily basis, I would start believing.

Would this "vision" be preceded by taking a sugar cube  

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"I'm talking about miracles. Divine intervention! (i.e. Samuel L. Jackson Pulp Fiction scene) I'm going off of the main topic here so what if... Something that happens, like a bus going going 60miles/hour, the brakes are cut and it can't stop, suddenly just stops as it's about to hit a pedestrian. What would you think?

I would think that something went wrong with that bus mechanically, and it would be best figured out by an investigation - take the bus apart and see what happened.  That's it.  No supernatural intervention.  Your example is interesting in that why would God save this pedestrian?  I could say, hypothetically, why doesn't God save all pedestrians that are in the path of a speeding bus?  You might say this is just one example, but many of the faithful think God is responsible for real life situations where a child is the only survivor of a plane crash (like the Yemeni plane crash last year http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/30/yemen.plane.crash/index.html) or that God is responsible when a bullet barely misses a child (like this one in Washington http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20051107&slug=costcoshooting07).  What about all of the men, women, and children that horrifically died in that plane crash?  What about all of the children that have been snuffed out by stray bullets?  Where was God then?  The way that I see it, if a god did intervene in your bus scenario, then this god:

A.  Must think this one particular pedestrian is pretty special, while the others aren't, or
B.  Must not be involved in these incidents and didn't intervene (which would call into question his omnipotence among other things), or
C.  Must be a sadistic asshole who likes to perform 'miracles' so that he can be revered while sacrificing countless others.

We can probably come up with more possibilities as to why a god would let these things happen, but they wouldn't sit well with you.

QuoteBecause there are things that we can't explain! I like to think of it like coincidence or fate.

'Because' is not an answer.

QuoteDo atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

Well, yes, but when did it become bad to just live?  I think that it's pretty cool that I, as an atheist, get to define my own purpose in life.  I also think that it's pretty special that I was born, given that the chance was highly improbable that just the right sperm met just the right egg at just the right time to make me and not someone else (and I don't want to even get into the millions of years of evolutionary improbabilities that led up to my making).  Yeah, I find that the opportunity to 'just live' is pretty damn awesome.

QuoteI have faith in the belief that God exists.
And you have faith in the belief that God doesn't exist.
Is this logic right? I'm a slow thinker...

I don't see how one can have faith in a negative. Do you have faith that there are no dancing fairies on your lawn at night?

Let me put it this way to avoid any confusion. I do not believe there is no God. I disbelieve in God. Atheism is just a lack of belief. There are probably very few atheists who would to claim to know there is no God. Even Richard Dawkins is of the opinion that to completely dismiss the idea in a brush of faith is highly unscientific. But it must be proven to us first. That's skepticism. Skepticism is an antonym of faith.

QuoteDo atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

I'm confused. To "just" live? Life is wonderfully amazing. And if it weren't why would you want to "just live" twice, foever and ever?  

Besides what else is there to do other than live? I mean all opportunity and experiences come from life itself. If somebody can't love life, they've really got nothing to love.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Say we don't know instead of making up an answer...

So you are just content with just saying...Well that bus should've killed them and it just stopped out of the blue. Oh well, who gives a ****?
It's more of a question about logic. If it can't be rationally explained then we just don't know, we shouldn't pin this on God.

BTW * bus thing is an example

I'm assuming the example is from Pulp Fiction and my Fiancée still gives me crap for never seeing it.  Anyway to clarify what I am saying.  Say the bus stops and the local authorities can't figure out why it did.  I would rather say, "we don't know why this happened" which is the honest answer instead of making up an answer like, "Well the Christian god stopped the bus what else can it be?"  Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean a god did it.  It just means we don't understand it.  To say anything more is stepping over a line of what we know and making things up.  You can think that your god stopped the bus all you want.  But when you assert that it is true that your god stopped the bus then you've crossed a line and have started claiming things you can't possibly know.  

QuoteDo atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

Has your religion really devalued our life on earth this much?

Quote from: "Evolved"'Because' is not an answer.

Just take the 'because' out then. There are simply things we cannot explain. The many examples you threw out, plus many others.

Quote from: "Evolved"What about all of the men, women, and children that horrifically died in that plane crash? What about all of the children that have been snuffed out by stray bullets? Where was God then? The way that I see it, if a god did intervene in your bus scenario, then this god:

A. Must think this one particular pedestrian is pretty special, while the others aren't, or
B. Must not be involved in these incidents and didn't intervene (which would call into question his omnipotence among other things), or
C. Must be a sadistic asshole who likes to perform 'miracles' so that he can be revered while sacrificing countless others.

We honestly don't know why some people live and some people die at all.
If God does exist, and if God created us, and if he does intervene, there's obviously a reason to it.
We can't assume that God thinks like us...right?
I assume that God is an infinite "being", so why would he think like us when it comes to life or death, or having an arm blown off, etc?

@Sophus
I'm understand about having faith in a negative.

Quote from: "Sophus"Besides what else is there to do other than live? I mean all opportunity and experiences come from life itself. If somebody can't love life, they've really got nothing to love.

Here you acknowledge the existence of love. Can you prove to me love exists?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"I'm assuming the example is from Pulp Fiction and my Fiancée still gives me crap for never seeing it.

You've got to see this movie! It's pretty good!
As for the example no, the Pulp Fiction scene deals with bullets not harming Samuel L. Jackson's character. Just go watch it.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Has your religion really devalued our life on earth this much?

Quote from: "Evolved"Well, yes, but when did it become bad to just live?

My religion does not devalue life at all. I never said that it was bad to live.
In fact life is very important, I think that, I really hope most people do, but so is death.
All we know right now is that death is just simply death. We just die, nothing really happens except we lose our ability to live. Then we have to get into a conversation about the soul or a spiritual self that doesn't "die".
But, I'm sure you guys have heard of Pascal's wager? Not that I completely agree with this but still...

The obvious thing I'm seeing is this:
"life" kinda just showed up out of the blue.
We evolved from the tiniest of species into what we are now.
We really don't understand our existence at all (and I mean everything, life, universe, etc) and we never will because it is infinite. Like trying to solve a rubix cube that infinitely large.
We are infinite creatures living in an infinite universe and 'somehow' there is a line that crossed.
We know the 0 or a 1, a negative or a positive. We are living in a physical world that is infinite?? It just doesn't make sense.
By the way, this is great conversation, I'm just trying to understand...

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"The obvious thing I'm seeing is this:
"life" kinda just showed up out of the blue.
We evolved from the tiniest of species into what we are now.
We really don't understand our existence at all (and I mean everything, life, universe, etc)...

I would agree that we don't fully understand our existence. Darwin has helped tremendously but there is still much unanswered. I think this is a perfect example, however, of Lone Materia's view that, when we don't know something we should conclude it is not known. Not make up explanations when we clearly admit to not knowing. If scientists continued to always think like that we never would have discovered anything.
I don't see how life would have poppoed up out of the blue when we are still working on the mystery. Science is pretty good at solving those, btw, no matter how daunting.  :)  Love is subjective, so how would you define it? Personally I don't think love, in the traditional conception of it as complete selflessness, exists. I go by the philosopher Erich Fromm's interpretation of Love, but in this little blurb all that was really meant by it is a strong desire/affection or enjoyment by one's life. So, like I said, I think we're veering, but would still make for a good discussion elsewhere.

Quote from: "Sophus"I think this is a perfect example, however, of Lone Materia's view that, when we don't know something we should conclude it is not known. Not make up explanations when we clearly admit to not knowing. If scientists continued to always think like that we never would have discovered anything.

Ahh, but I consider that, in fact, lazy thinking. Think outside of the box, why are we capable of doing it in the first place? Not knowing is just a step. Our minds are supposed to question, we strive to understand!But to what end? Religion is what has come of it. We take these things that we don't understand and substitute a answer that doesn't need "physical" proof. Kind of illogical... But why?

Quote from: "Sophus"I don't think we do know that it's infinite. But here's a related thought I have on the matter: Matter (existence) and time cannot be without the other. I often hear God created time and lives beyond it. Doesn't that prove he doesn't exist?

I disagree, everything is infinite.
Look I'm writing paragraphs, inside the paragraphs there are sentences, we understand this...The sentences are made up of words, we understand those. Those words are then made up of letters, but what of the letters, how is it that we can just understand those? Thoughts or ideas in our brain, but they have to come from something...
Things don't just stop, we all know this. Things are made of things which are made of things, and it goes into infinity.
i.e. Life! Humans -> Muscles -> Tissue -> Cells -> DNA -> Elements -> Atoms -> Quarks (I think that's as far as we are now?) And it can then go in the opposite direction. We just keep discovering and it's never going to stop because if we find it, would our life be meaningless? Can we therefore assume that something is giving meaning to life? Or not...? Help me with this

Quote from: "Sophus"I don't think we do know that it's infinite. But here's a related thought I have on the matter: Matter (existence) and time cannot be without the other. I often hear God created time and lives beyond it. Doesn't that prove he doesn't exist?

Good idea, but does matter prove existence?

Quote from: "Sophus"Pascal's Wager doesn't consider all of the different faiths.

That doesn't matter, all faiths have truth. I see what you mean though.

Haha, I won't press the love subject here.

So, basically I'm getting this:
We are beings, living (we don't know how), existing (we don't know why), and trying to discover life as we know it.
And the only absolute question is that we want proof that God exists? Why?

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"So, basically I'm getting this:
We are beings, living (we don't know how), existing (we don't know why), and trying to discover life as we know it.
And the only absolute question is that we want proof that God exists? Why?

Some people want proof before they dedicate their whole life to something. Plus, it's about more than a lack of evidence in favor of the God hypothesis. I'd say there's much that reasons it's highly improbable.

QuoteAhh, but I consider that, in fact, lazy thinking.

I disagree. It's just being honest. Nothing wrong with showing creative thinking. I myself often ponder the subject of the origin of life and try to reason out what is most likely. I simply don't claim to know. But if history is a guide, there will be a natural answer for it. The greatest mysteries keep falling victim to scientific inquiry.
What if I were to tell you that I believe some of the miracles in the Bible really did happen? Here's the catch: there's a scientific explanation behind them. Remember when Moses turned a Nile red with blood? Well, if you push the dating back by about five hundred years (which isn't bad considering Moses probably wasn't the one who actually wrote about himself) scientists think a real event may have occurred that would cause a river to turn to red, killing the fish - Pfiesteria. In more recent time, a river has been known to turn red. The red pigment from the algea (red tide) along with the blood of dead fish may well have been the inspiration for the Biblical story. They also theorize that "the mass death of fish would have freed the spawn of frogs from their natural predators". (*John S. Marr, & Curtis Malloy)Their theories for explaining the plagues of Egypt continue...

I'm not so desperate for an explanation that I'll accept the first creative answer. That's not intellectual laziness, that's just making sure you really know what you know. Am I making sense?

QuoteLife! Humans -> Muscles -> Tissue -> Cells -> DNA -> Elements -> Atoms -> Quarks (I think that's as far as we are now?) And it can then go in the opposite direction. We just keep discovering and it's never going to stop because if we find it, would our life be meaningless? Can we therefore assume that something is giving meaning to life? Or not...? Help me with this

Ah, I thought you were referring to the Universe, as in time. Atoms have their limitations as well. Just because we're still discovering doesn't mean its infinite either. It's kind of hastily jumping to conclusion, IMHO. On physics, Gary Zukav had said that it is no longer possible to answer what we a re manifestation of. But he wasn't a physicist. Just a New Ager trying to make a gap fit his faith.

QuoteGood idea, but does matter prove existence?

They are essentially the same, are they not? Einstein had noted that time was an illusion as it was simply the product of existence itself. Without matter (something to exist) nothing can exist.

 Good productive discussion thus far.  

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"Ha, this is interesting I like this.

Here lies the problem.
We all know that In order to have a belief in something we have to acknowledge its existence.
There is no proof that God exists/doesn't exist.

So basically we cannot "believe in God" because we cannot prove he exists/doesn't exist.
Faith is a belief is something that is not based on proof though... so...

This is where I step in. You can't prove that God does or does not exist. You can't prove that heaven does or does not exist. You also can't prove that Wonderland does not exist.

There are 1000s of groups that make a huge variety of claims about a spiritual world and it's inhabitants. Even members of the same group disagree on something. All of them (including Christianity) are equally unsupported by evidence or reason.

What does this lead me to conclude? Religions appear to be fine-tuned to adapt and survive in a world where there is no God, spiritual realms, or spiritual beings of any kind.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"Do atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Has your religion really devalued our life on earth this much?

My religion does not devalue life at all. I never said that it was bad to live.
In fact life is very important, I think that, I really hope most people do, but so is death.

The reason I asked is because you seemed to imply here that life without your god isn't special.  To which I couldn't disagree more.  Religion teaches you that this life isn't that important because when you die you will have a life that is incredibly better then this one.  As an atheist I don't believe in an afterlife.  Which makes this life infinitely more worth living then an afterlife that may or may not exist.  It makes life infinitely more valuable.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"Ahh, but I consider that, in fact, lazy thinking. Think outside of the box, why are we capable of doing it in the first place? Not knowing is just a step. Our minds are supposed to question, we strive to understand!But to what end? Religion is what has come of it. We take these things that we don't understand and substitute a answer that doesn't need "physical" proof. Kind of illogical... But why?

So you are saying that religion is just asserting they know something that no one currently knows(I agree).  I find making up an easy answer lazy thinking.  It's much easier to just say something did it, rather then working hard to understand the processes involved in what is happening.  When you assert made up answers to problems you stop the process of learning.  To me that is willful ignorance.  No matter how creative you think you are in making up an answer you are still making stuff up, and there is no truth value in what you say.  If you ask me why the sky is blue and I tell you it's because the pink unicorn farted the sky and his farts are blue, no matter how creative this answer is does that make me any more correct?  No matter how much I assert this is absolutely true does that make me correct?  Even if I actually believed this does that make my answer correct?  This is what it sounds like to us when you say your god did something when we don't currently have an explanation.  It sounds like you took the easy explanation instead of researching and looking for an answer.  If you do research and can't figure out why the sky is blue ... how does that justify the belief that the pink unicorn farted the sky blue?  It doesn't.  Same with assigning something to your god when you can't explain it.  Just because you claim a god did it does not make it true ... and even if we don't know why something happened how, exactly, does it lend credibility to a god doing it?

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"I disagree, everything is infinite.

Thats a nice assertion do you have any evidence to back this up?

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"... but what of the letters, how is it that we can just understand those?

Do you not recall preschool and kindergarten?

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"Help me with this

Sure.  What makes you think the cycle is infinite, and what makes you think a god stops the cycle of infinite regress?  We know that everything starts simple and then gets complex over time.  A being able to create the universe would have to be complex by definition.  So where does your god come from and why does he stop the cycle of infinite regress?  And how is it more honest to say a god does that instead of, "I don't know"?

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"That doesn't matter, all faiths have truth. I see what you mean though.

Just a note to start with.  Pascal's Wager makes the mistake that belief is something that you can choose.  I can't choose to believe in a god anymore then you can choose to believe in Santa Clause.  

Now why aren't all faiths saying the same thing if they all are true (or have truths in them)?  It does matter that Pascal's Wager doesn't cover all religions.  Religions have conflicting views on what god is true and what it wants and what it does.  If you are wrong and a different religion is right then what?   The god of the bible is a jealous prick who will commit genocide if people worship a different god (read the Old Testament if you don't believe me).  There are other gods who get equally jealous and petty over it.  So if you worship Yahweh (the god of the bible) and you are wrong but say Wotan is right (who was a bitter rival of Yahweh) you would be better off not worshiping Yahweh.  Also when you account for all the religions someone has to be wrong.  In fact if Christians are correct all of the tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of religions that ever existed have to be wrong.  But you know what?  No religion has to be right, but many have to be wrong.  Think about that next time you read Pascal's Cowardly Wager of trying to fake belief in light of possible punishment.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Just a note to start with. Pascal's Wager makes the mistake that belief is something that you can choose. I can't choose to believe in a god anymore then you can choose to believe in Santa Clause.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. I guess denialism is subject to one's own volition, but not genuine belief.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Just a note to start with. Pascal's Wager makes the mistake that belief is something that you can choose. I can't choose to believe in a god anymore then you can choose to believe in Santa Clause.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. I guess denialism is subject to one's own volition, but not genuine belief.

:D

hmmm for me honestly, there are only personal accounts, which i believe were from God which keep me believing in God. I think for the most part people hold onto their beliefs for hope and comfort and dont have any substantial proof for themselves.

ill share one, woke up one day and decided i wanted to "search for God", to find out once and for all if there was one. Spent months dedicating hours of MY time to reading the bible, prayer and talking to God, i never heard any audible voice talk back either.

I told God during the day that i was going to go down to the forest and that i wanted Him to accompany me. I went down to the forest as soon as i had finished helping my dad with the cupboard we were making. I brought my p.e h/w and my bible and a drink bottle. While i was down there i was praying to God, asking that the Holy Spirit would be strengthened in me. I said " I know your real and i dont doubt you but i want to get closer to you, if you'll let me". After that i started humming and whistling and i was thinking in my head, wouldnt it be awesome if a bird whistled back! I thought if God willed it then the Holy Spirit would give the birds understanding. Although i told God if nothing happened i wouldnt lose faith. Time passed and it was time for me to head home, sun was goin down. i stood up and before id taken 3 steps a wild kookaburra flew past my head. i thought to myself "Wow that was close, this bird must be comfortable around me". then it flew past me again and landed on a nearby fence. I looked at the bird which looked straight back at me and i knew that God was granting this bird peace with me and i thanked Him for it. i then dropped to my knees and said " God if this is from you, then grant this bird understanding". I then stood up, looked at the kookaburra,  gestured my hand and said "come over here". The kookaburra immediately flew over to me and landed at my feet, it was looking straight up at me. I was amazed but also a little afraid. i then remembered how peter had doubted Gods power and decided i would not do the same. I sat down slowly, put out my hand and the kookaburra came right up to me and nibbled on my hand. i knew that the kookaburra wouldnt hurt me because God had given it peace with me. I sat for a while playing with the wild kookaburra, and the rest of its family flew over and watched from a nearby tree. I knew that we were now friends, thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit. I was also crying all the while.  It eventually flew back over to the fence and i noticed more animals had come out of the forest and were at peace. We all looked out into the valley as the sun went down. i decided it was time to head home, so i got up and said goodbye.

It was one of the best days of my life, and i owe it all to God.  

"If you draw near to God, He draws near to you".

If personal experiences are somehow good justification for believing, why are atheists told that they're irrational for DISbelieving because of their personal experiences? Regardless of the fact that we don't all have negative experiences with religion...

Truth is you know what youve done and havent done. You know wether or not you wholeheartedly gave God a chance to prove Himself in your life. You cant expect experiences to fall into your lap. You cant expect God to reveal Himself to you without you making sacrifices for Him.

To dionysiou,

I was a Christian in my youth. The more I pondered it the more I began to think that all of my personal experiences were really the construction of my mind. I don't mean what I'm about to say offensively at all, and I hope you don't take it that way. But I would rephrase "If you draw near to God, He draws near to you" as "there's no clear point between pretending to believe in something and really believing in it." The more you attempt to know an imaginary friend the more you'll personify him. Not to mention you're presuming their existence, even though you're doubting it. The search is anything my mind can find to give me reason to believe in what is now constantly on my mind; what I wish I could be certain of. By talking to this character and fantasizing of what he's like I develop an attachment to him. The mind's a powerful tool. If you delve into psychology I think you'll see just how easy it is for the mind to trick itself. There has been research proving humans have a strong tendency to believe what they want to. If you search for truth with feelings, you'll likely make your conclusion based on feelings, not reason.

Once, as a child, I saw a blinking red light in the sky on Christmas Eve. Needless to say it was an airplane but I said, "Look it's Rudolph!"And was eager to get home so Santa wouldn't pass us by for not being in bed. Coincidences:

We happen to be out that night
The light on the aircraft was red, not white or another color
A plane passed over where we were at on December 24th at the exact time we were walking to the car
I noticed the light
I was raised to believe in Santa and Rudolph

Coincidences do happen.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"lol it happens. I know I didn't mention everything about Pascal's Wager either because we just don't have enough room to do it and stay on topic. We could go into detail about the question begging present or the moral implications of belief over actions. But you did a great job I just rehashed it with other things I could think of at the time without turning it into a 5 page response like what i'm famous for

Ha ha... yes, it is quite flawed. Don't know if I completely agree with that website's information on it though. Even though Pascal was trying to convince readers we should "believe in God without hesitation" he did acknowledge there options of a Finite gain and Finite loss, didn't he?

dionysiou I am unimpressed with your story and here is why.  I live a few miles from the beach.  Often times when I go seagulls and other "wild" birds will come near us (mainly because we are fishing).  The birds are not frightened of us because the tourists feed them all the time.  The birds will come close looking for food and if you aren't careful will take food out of our hands (right before you eat it).  There doesn't seem to be anything magical about your story.  It looks like a bird that is fed by humans swooped by you looking for food.  When  you opened your hand and it pecked at it the other birds thought you were feeding it and showed up looking for some free handouts.  If you threw a piece of bread in front of them they'd have started fighting with each other trying to get it.  I went fishing twice this week with my friend (twice because the first time we didn't catch anything).  The first time we were there this hurt crane was hopping along the beach with either a broken or sprained foot.  Though we are all locals and know better my friend started feeding the bird the shrimp we were using as bait (since there were no fish biting).  He tried to get it to take the food out of his hand but since the bird was hurt it wouldn't do it, but it got within about 4 inches of my friend to eat the shrimp and sand fleas everyone was giving to it.  We all went back two days later and the same bird with the hurt foot showed up again and came by us looking for free hand outs.  This time the fish were eating our bait and he couldn't give it as much.  Anyway the point is even though a bird is wild it isn't afraid of us because we feed them.  

I honestly think you mistook this behavior for the sign you admit to be searching for.  The mistake you made was you started with a conclusion and looked for evidence to fulfill it, and you probably would have accepted anything.  If you ran into a deer or a bear you'd have probably came to the same conclusion.  Or if you walked near a mocking bird's nest and it attacked you (like they do everything) then you'd have came to the same conclusion.  Honestly i'd have been more impressed if you didn't run into any birds whatsoever in the woods.  You set out to prove to yourself that there is a god and you were looking for some way you couldn't fail.  If you are walking into the woods to see birds to validate your beliefs ... well its the woods ... bird are almost always there.  You were looking for something you couldn't lose with.  You might as well said to yourself, "If I get fed at least 1 meal today it proves a god exists."  It is as likely you will get fed as running into birds in the woods.

Quote from: "dionysiou"You cant expect experiences to fall into your lap. You cant expect God to reveal Himself to you without you making sacrifices for Him.

Aside from the fact that quite a few of the atheist members here were Christians at some point in their lives (some of us were actually really involved with our churches); why wouldn't God want to reveal himself to people without them first reaching out into the dark grasping for something...Jesus helped to ease Thomas' doubts; right?

btw, I also confirm that sea birds that live in areas populated by humans are not afraid one bit of us...I've fed many a seagull out of my hand in virginia, north carolina, and texas...it's very typical.  If you want to get a pic with a seagull you just hold out your hand or hold your hand up in any way that might remotely look like you have food; they'll come even if your hand is empty.  I've also fed wild chipmunks in colorado by hand due to this same tendency for wild animals to become partially tame when people feed them.

Quote from: "Sophus"Ha ha... yes, it is quite flawed. Don't know if I completely agree with that website's information on it though. Even though Pascal was trying to convince readers we should "believe in God without hesitation" he did acknowledge there options of a Finite gain and Finite loss, didn't he?

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.  Um check pascal's wiki under normal Wikipedia.

Ok there are two possibilities, 1. you are right and the kookaburra has been fed before and mistakenly thought i had food, but still stuck around for me to pet it. or 2. It was God who answered my prayer and read my thoughts to fulfill a desire i had in my heart . You can think as you like, I was there.

Quote from: "dionysiou"Ok there are two possibilities, 1. you are right and the kookaburra has been fed before and mistakenly thought i had food, but still stuck around for me to pet it. or 2. It was God who answered my prayer and read my thoughts to fulfill a desire i had in my heart . You can think as you like, I was there.

Or it was an odd bird who simply didn't have a natural fear of humans or you are embellishing a bit on what really happened.

Weren't you one of the Christians who recently joined because you wanted to truly investigated religious questions?

There was no embellishment, if you knew me you'd know. I joined here because i wanted to, not because i needed too. The religious questions never get me anywhere. I feel none the better after ive answered them. another choice would have been time better spent.

Good discussion!

Although it might veer of the original topic a bit I have a few of questions to dionysiou, in the same style as the question in the original post but in different directions.

a) How many miracles (as interpreted by you) would it take for you to

stop believing in your current choice of god if they could all be attributed to natural phenomenons.
b) How many miracles (as interpreted by you) would it take for you to start believing in Ra (or any other deity)  
c) If a muslim believer told the same Kookaburra-story in this forum, would you expect people to take that as proof for the undeniable existence of Allah?
[/list]

My thinking is that if you expected absolute and final answers on your question, you should be able to give absolute and final answers to these, more or less

BTW, I must give you extra credits dionysiou for being able to keeping your posts so friendly and to the point when most people here take a contradictory stand to your views. Not all believers are able to be that open minded and respectful towards other people when their views collide.

Quote from: "dionysiou"There was no embellishment, if you knew me you'd know. I joined here because i wanted to, not because i needed too. The religious questions never get me anywhere. I feel none the better after ive answered them. another choice would have been time better spent.

I want you to note dionysiou that no one has accused of of lying or PURPOSEFULLY embellishing your stories.  Whitney was just pointing out your false dichotomy.  The human brain becomes notoriously inaccurate the further an event is in the past.  Even after a short period of time (a week or so and sometimes less then that) when you recall the information the brain will not get some details right anymore.  Don't get upset this is the human brain and it happens to everyone.  That is why eye witness testimony doesn't mean much in courts anymore.  People will mistake someone for someone else then swear with absolute certainty that this person committed a crime, and then DNA evidence will exonerate them.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852659n&tag=mncol;lst;2

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852677n&tag=mncol;lst;3

In the videos the lady is given the benefit of the doubt because both people looked similar.  But that isn't always the case.

Quote from: "dionysiou"so from what im reading it would have to be something that YOU know was supernatural and that YOU couldnt deny. Even then it wouldnt be enough for some of you, maybe youd need another miracle on top of it. a lot of skeptics

List three "miracles" of the 20th or 21st century.

Quote from: "dionysiou"There was no embellishment, if you knew me you'd know. I joined here because i wanted to, not because i needed too. The religious questions never get me anywhere. I feel none the better after ive answered them. another choice would have been time better spent.

I was simply pointing out that there were more than 2 explanations to the bird story; I guess I should have also included the additional option of purposefully lying, or the you are/were crazy option....that would be 2 additional explanations off the top of my head not including your 2 and my previous 2....it's not just a choice between bird tamed via repeat feeding and god did it.  Now, from your perspective we can cut out purposefully lying but if I had a weird experience that I was claiming to be a miracle I would personally wonder if I might have been remembering incorrectly or had experienced a temporary moment of insanity (normal healthy humans can hallucinate images from time to time; supposedly we all do at least once in our lives but it's not out of place and so we don't notice; there's a thread covering that somewhere around here)

Anyway, as you can see there are numerous reasons for us to doubt your story as stated and then almost as many reasons for why you should personally doubt your story as stated.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence....if we have 5 ordinary explanations and 1 extraordinary explanation there is no sense to pick the extraordinary one without reason.  Then if we use the razor to select the simplest of the 6 then coincidence combined with false memory (embellishing a bit unknowingly) is most likely since tame birds probably aren't that common in the forest and since it's not that great of miracle there isn't a reason to think you made it up.

Quote from: "Dretlin"List three "miracles" of the 20th or 21st century.

I'll throw this one in there for fun:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle)

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Sophus"Ha ha... yes, it is quite flawed. Don't know if I completely agree with that website's information on it though. Even though Pascal was trying to convince readers we should "believe in God without hesitation" he did acknowledge there options of a Finite gain and Finite loss, didn't he?

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.  Um check pascal's wiki under normal Wikipedia.

Oops. Nevermind. Memory failed me. Could've sworn I had read that somewhere. Maybe Dawkins' God Delusion?  

Ah well. I still remember that whole prose book of Pascal's was an utter disaster. Should have stuck to math.

QuoteThe human brain becomes notoriously inaccurate the further an event is in the past.

What?!?! No it DOESN'T! My memory is unfailing!  lol

Quote from: "Whitney"I'll throw this one in there for fun:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle)

I believe you used the correct expression.

"This explanation did nothing to reduce the numbers of faithful rushing to the temples..."

I am surprised (or maybe I shouldn't be) that something this trivial is considered proof of divine presence.

This does also highlight that even in the face of an explanation, it was ignored.

alright well theres no point in me listing miracles that i read in articles or on wiki (who can trust it?) but ive got an older friend of mine who tells me while he was driving he was caught up in a vision, in the vision he is holding onto his girlfriend until Jesus approaches him and begins to gently pull her away and says " Shes set apart for me" My friend is on his knees and looking down, he says " Lord, I am alone" Jesus replies "I will sustain you" and the vision ends and his back in the car. You could say he was only hallucinating but He actually broke up with his girlfriend at that time over it. He's happily married to somebody else now anyway. Ive got another friend of mine who is an evangelist and he spends all his time praying with people and getting guidance from the Holy Spirit. His seen jesus 3 times. finally is the pastor of my church who was in a motorcycle accident when he was 18, He told me he went to heaven and Jesus asked him if he wanted to stay, he told Jesus "no" because he wanted to know him better on earth and actually help some people so he woke up. so yea, ive heard others but i dont personally know the people. As for my story, that was written as soon as i got back home, because i knew i would forget things. You know, i was expecting to meet a lot more opposition than i have, i mean you guys are skeptical, which i would be too, but at least your considering the possibilities. oh and btw, no kookaburra has done that since, so it was a once off.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Regarding the miracle: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." What constitutes a miracle is totally subjective. One person's miracle is another person's magnet trick.

I think your definition is self-serving. It demonstrates a circularity and question begging unwillingness to evaluate evidence that might contradict your already made up mind. In short, any thing you could not explain you'd simply call a "magic trick" and since magic tricks are not miracles by definition, you don't have to acknowledge evidence against your beliefs.

But if we defined a miracle as a "suspension of the  natural laws of physics", and you saw your mother step off a cliff in an attempt to commit suicide, but she floated gracefully to the ground unaided by technology, and found upon her arrival the words "placed here by God" tattooed on her ass, your mother then claimed it was not a magic trick, she'd either be a liar, or the beneficiary of a miracle. But you'd pick liar, wouldn't you, because no one can float gracefully to the ground unaided by technology, can they? You'd completely ignore her previous suicidal state of mind, claiming it was only a "trick", because you've already made up your mind.  

Quote from: "objectivitees"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Regarding the miracle: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." What constitutes a miracle is totally subjective. One person's miracle is another person's magnet trick.

I think your definition is self-serving. It demonstrates a circularity and question begging unwillingness to evaluate evidence that might contradict your already made up mind. In short, any thing you could not explain you'd simply call a "magic trick" and since magic tricks are not miracles by definition, you don't have to acknowledge evidence against your beliefs.

But if we defined a miracle as a "suspension of the  natural laws of physics", and you saw your mother step off a cliff in an attempt to commit suicide, but she floated gracefully to the ground unaided by technology, and found upon her arrival the words "placed here by God" tattooed on her ass, your mother then claimed it was not a magic trick, she'd either be a liar, or the beneficiary of a miracle. But you'd pick liar, wouldn't you, because no one can float gracefully to the ground unaided by technology, can they? You'd completely ignore her previous suicidal state of mind, claiming it was only a "trick", because you've already made up your mind.  

Just as you have already made up your mind that curio is closed minded simply because he pointed out why it is not a good idea to jump to the conclusion that something is a miracle?

Quote from: "whitney"Just as you have already made up your mind that curio is closed minded simply because he pointed out why it is not a good idea to jump to the conclusion that something is a miracle?

No, curio demonstrated it with a self serving definition that does not do any remote justice to what a "miracle" is usually considered to be. Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?

Quote from: "dionysiou"alright well theres no point in me listing miracles that i read in articles or on wiki (who can trust it?) but ive got an older friend of mine who tells me while he was driving he was caught up in a vision, in the vision he is holding onto his girlfriend until Jesus approaches him and begins to gently pull her away and says " Shes set apart for me" My friend is on his knees and looking down, he says " Lord, I am alone" Jesus replies "I will sustain you" and the vision ends and his back in the car. You could say he was only hallucinating but He actually broke up with his girlfriend at that time over it. He's happily married to somebody else now anyway. Ive got another friend of mine who is an evangelist and he spends all his time praying with people and getting guidance from the Holy Spirit. His seen jesus 3 times. finally is the pastor of my church who was in a motorcycle accident when he was 18, He told me he went to heaven and Jesus asked him if he wanted to stay, he told Jesus "no" because he wanted to know him better on earth and actually help some people so he woke up. so yea, ive heard others but i dont personally know the people. As for my story, that was written as soon as i got back home, because i knew i would forget things. You know, i was expecting to meet a lot more opposition than i have, i mean you guys are skeptical, which i would be too, but at least your considering the possibilities. oh and btw, no kookaburra has done that since, so it was a once off.

I know a woman who honestly believes she gets spanked by ghosts while she sleeps.  I don't believe her, I have no reason to believe her, but I think everyone knows someone who has a supernatural story to tell.

Quote from: "objectivitees"Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "objectivitees"Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

Quote from: "objectivitees"I have my dignity.

Then henceforth you should have little difficulty comporting yourself accordingly.

Quote from: "objectivitees"

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "objectivitees"Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

I don't think I'm inviting you to my birthday party. I don't much like your attitude.

And... I'm pretty confident Whitney is not a dude. Or am I not allowed to answer for that?

Hismikeness

Quote from: "objectivitees"I think your definition is self-serving.

Ummm... Curio said it was subjective. Subjective....

Quote from: "dionysiou"alright well theres no point in me listing miracles that i read in articles or on wiki (who can trust it?) but ive got an older friend of mine who tells me while he was driving he was caught up in a vision, in the vision he is holding onto his girlfriend until Jesus approaches him and begins to gently pull her away and says " Shes set apart for me" My friend is on his knees and looking down, he says " Lord, I am alone" Jesus replies "I will sustain you" and the vision ends and his back in the car. You could say he was only hallucinating but He actually broke up with his girlfriend at that time over it. He's happily married to somebody else now anyway. Ive got another friend of mine who is an evangelist and he spends all his time praying with people and getting guidance from the Holy Spirit. His seen jesus 3 times. finally is the pastor of my church who was in a motorcycle accident when he was 18, He told me he went to heaven and Jesus asked him if he wanted to stay, he told Jesus "no" because he wanted to know him better on earth and actually help some people so he woke up. so yea, ive heard others but i dont personally know the people. As for my story, that was written as soon as i got back home, because i knew i would forget things. You know, i was expecting to meet a lot more opposition than i have, i mean you guys are skeptical, which i would be too, but at least your considering the possibilities. oh and btw, no kookaburra has done that since, so it was a once off.

So your older friend broke up with his girlfriend because he thinks Jesus told him too ... lmao.  Talk about looking for an excuse to break up with someone.  I wonder what will happen if he has a "vision" saying to divorce his wife ... maybe he will have it after having a fight with her.  Ask him if Jesus was white ... if he says yes it wasn't Jesus Google etiquette and refresh yourself.  If the Admin or Mods are hinting to your to stop being pissy (in a way you can probably understand it)... then the following is probably one of the worst things to say:

Quote from: "objectivitees"Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

You are acting like a 5 year old.  If this is all the dignity you have then I honestly feel sorry for you.

Quote from: "objectivitees"

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "objectivitees"Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

Calm down, have some dip...

1) Whitney is not a guy.  2) This is her forum and she can ban whomever she pleases for whatever reason she sees fit.  And finally, we're all reading text (obviously) and therefore it can be difficult to discern the tone of a person's post which may or may not have been the original intent of the poster.  If you are called pissy and that wasn't your intended tone of the post, just clarify in a reply - emotiocons can assist.  In sum, chill - as one of the sages of the webs once said, "Dude, it's just the internet".

Quote from: "Squid"chill

I agree, geez I leave for a day and miss all the fun!  ;)

Quote from: "LoneMateria"When you assert made up answers to problems you stop the process of learning.

I might not of clarified myself and I'm too lazy to go back and check. But I'm talking about problems that give no answers (i.e. the topic, miracles and such).

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Thats a nice assertion do you have any evidence to back this up?

Do you really think that everything just stops? Everything that exists starts somewhere, Philosophy lesson: How many times can you cut a block of metal in half until its gone? Draw a square on a piece of paper...any size.. whatever. Now how much space is inside that square? (Please, don't even think about getting a ruler out!)We could put a 3 and 4 on each side and say, oh wait it's area is 12. But if we change the numbers to say 5 and 5...its now 25. So the area of that square, that physically hasn't changed, is 12 and 25? Put in any numbers you want to, we would have to logically say there is an infinite amount of space correct? And that includes perspective as well.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"... but what of the letters, how is it that we can just understand those?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Do you not recall preschool and kindergarten?

You completely missed my point, but I admit that was a bad example. Read above.

Quote from: "Whitney"Aside from the fact that quite a few of the atheist members here were Christians at some point in their lives (some of us were actually really involved with our churches); why wouldn't God want to reveal himself to people without them first reaching out into the dark grasping for something...Jesus helped to ease Thomas' doubts; right?

God did not and cannot reveal himself. You answered your own question, Jesus [/u] revealed himself to Thomas. I know, I know, But Jesus is God according to some Christians!, I don't think we want to get into another topic about the Trinity or whatnot here.

Quote from: "Dretlin"List three "miracles" of the 20th or 21st century.

I started reading all that bird stuff and I'm not gonna lie I got bored.
Miracles, in my opinion, are def. not like some that were mentioned (Jesus telling to break up with gf, etc.) That is a nice idea.. but really?...it just doesn't work like that. I believe that there are personal miracles (that some call coincidence) but it's honestly in the eye of the beholder.
I'm thinking more along the lines of the Shroud of Turin, Mary appearing in Fatima, big stuff that really can't be explained...

Quote from: "Sophus"Atoms have their limitations as well.

Where did you find this?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"What makes you think the cycle is infinite, and what makes you think a god stops the cycle of infinite regress? We know that everything starts simple and then gets complex over time. A being able to create the universe would have to be complex by definition. So where does your god come from and why does he stop the cycle of infinite regress? And how is it more honest to say a god does that instead of, "I don't know"?

Quote from: "Ellanix"You can't prove that God does or does not exist.

This is where it gets fun. I've been thinking about this.
Neither Christians nor Atheists can prove that God doesn't/does exist. That is the disagreement, we've said it a dozen times.
This is where my idea of infinity and existence come into play. (I'm referring to space and time right now) Who said that God necessarily stops the cycle of infinite regress? That might be true...but I honestly don't think that God stops anything, it simply is just infinite (simple infinite...hmm), it's just going to keep going and going and we are going to keep discovering that: this makes this which in turn makes this, and this is made up of these, and so forth. But we are able to do things that break this rule..somehow...how close can I get to touching water without actually touching it? According to my logic, the is an infinite amount of space between the end of my index finger and the surface of the water...But...it happens. Why is that? Why would a bunch of random evolutionary changes give only ONE species on this planet the ability to love, laugh, have an innate moral code, and comprehend it's own existence, etc.?

So basically an atheist argument we are getting closer to discovering that God doesn't exist is invalid, because there are an infinite things left to discover. But that should apply also to the theists saying that we are getting closer to proving that God exists ...right? The difference is that a Theists "proof" cannot be proved... Ha kind of ironic...it seems two sides are just in a big pickle. So maybe we've got all this junk to think about, is it simply about choice?

But I'm going to go on a whim and say this. God doesn't exist in the same exact way that we don't understand the meaning of existence. It was said a couple times that "matter proves existence", God isn't matter, we are matter, God is infinite right? He is then above our thinking and above our existence.

QuoteWhere did you find this?

Fermions and the tachyon.

im sorry my stories bore you , its funny that you mention hindus because a good friend of mine is an indian hindu and he believes the same as i do. they have different names but in essence he believes in God and Jesus. Anyway if you knew the christian beliefs then you would know that Satan can come as a messenger of light to spread more confusion. ultimately though, theres no point debating bout any of this, cause at the end of the day its YOUR LIFE. How do you feel about your life and how sure are you about your beliefs or lack thereof? If you feel as if your leading a fulfilled and happy life then im truly happy for you. If not then i suggest giving God a real go, if you know that you already have and God failed you then you have nothing to worry about. As for these questions

a) How many miracles (as interpreted by you) would it take for you to stop believing in your current choice of god if they could all be attributed to natural phenomenons. i attribute natural phenomenon to God brother.
b) How many miracles (as interpreted by you) would it take for you to start believing in Ra (or any other deity)
God isnt the only one who can work miracles, so other miracles would be up for discerning.
c) If a muslim believer told the same Kookaburra-story in this forum, would you expect people to take that as proof for the undeniable existence of Allah?
Definitely not, you have to discover things for yourself, i just share my experiences for some incentive to do so.

Quote from: "dionysiou"im sorry my stories bore you , its funny that you mention hindus because a good friend of mine is an indian hindu and he believes the same as i do. they have different names but in essence he believes in God and Jesus. Anyway if you knew the christian beliefs then you would know that Satan can come as a messenger of light to spread more confusion. ultimately though, theres no point debating bout any of this, cause at the end of the day its YOUR LIFE. How do you feel about your life and how sure are you about your beliefs or lack thereof? If you feel as if your leading a fulfilled and happy life then im truly happy for you. If not then i suggest giving God a real go, if you know that you already have and God failed you then you have nothing to worry about. As for these questions

You believe in medieval propaganda? Do you honestly believe in a being such as Satan or as a metaphor for escaping responsibility for your own actions?

I do recall this recent article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7056689.ece).

Satan is brilliant for avoiding your responsibility to sincerity and the well fare of humans!

“In much the same way as prophets and seers and great theologians seemed to have died out, so the age of miracles seems to lie somewhere in our past. If the religious were wise, or had the confidence of their convictions, they might to welcome the eclipse of this age of fraud and conjuring. But faith, yet again, discredits itself by proving to be insufficient to satisfy the faithful. Actual events are still required to impress the credulous. We have no difficulty in seeing this when we study the witch doctor and magicians and soothsayers of earlier or more remote cultures. “
To quote Christopher Hitchens on miracles.

Quote from: "Sophus"Fermions and the tachyon.

Thanks Sophus, interesting stuff..I'm gonna read up on this.

This is just a quick general reminder that this forum is for discussion rather than preaching...I don't think this discussion has gone towards the preaching path yet but wanted to try to keep things on the discussion path since it appears a fork in the road might be on it's way.

dw whitney im not going to start preaching and the only thing that lets me escape from taking responsibility for my own actions is Jesus. I do believe in satan, of course i do, i am a christian remember. As for sincerity and well fare of humans, what are you talking about? I know i mess up and when i do i hurt myself more than anyone. But if i ever do hurt someone, i make sure i make amends. as a christian i have a duty to follow all the teachings which Jesus brought forward. as for the vatican and anyother religious sect, i have no association with them. I believe NO religion leads to the Father only Jesus. God is not interested in ceremony and ritual, he only wants your love and intimate friendship!

I've got a lot to respond to here so i'm going to make it as painless as possible to everyone involved (especially me).  So if I unintentionally skip over something that you wanted me to address please ask me again.

Quote from: "dionysiou"im sorry my stories bore you ;)

We have an understanding of infinity.  The human brain just has a hard time grasping it.  I'm honestly not sure what assumption you are saying is incredibly big ... please clarify.  Also you say that belief is important.  Without that no matter how good the person is they can never enter heaven and are doomed to the alternatives (purgatory was declared not real by the pope and thus being a Catholic concept isn't [or shouldn't] be part of the Catholic faith ... which leaves hell).  So your god gives infinite rewards for belief but infinite punishment (or at least not reward depending on your particular faith) for thought crimes.  How is that moral?  It is divisive and creates an us vs them scenario ... either you are a Christian and thus a good person ... or you are evil and spend an spend eternity in torment of some kind.  Also it promotes thoughts over actions ... because your god can forgive you if you ask him to or if you repent.  How is this moral?

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"I might not of clarified myself and I'm too lazy to go back and check. But I'm talking about problems that give no answers (i.e. the topic, miracles and such).

I understand that and then what happens is that when we don't know the answer you insert your particular deity as the answer (i.e. making up an answer) because saying an honest, "I don't know" makes people uncomfortable.  Such is honesty.  

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"Do you really think that everything just stops? Everything that exists starts somewhere, Philosophy lesson: How many times can you cut a block of metal in half until its gone? Draw a square on a piece of paper...any size.. whatever. Now how much space is inside that square? (Please, don't even think about getting a ruler out!)We could put a 3 and 4 on each side and say, oh wait it's area is 12. But if we change the numbers to say 5 and 5...its now 25. So the area of that square, that physically hasn't changed, is 12 and 25? Put in any numbers you want to, we would have to logically say there is an infinite amount of space correct? And that includes perspective as well.

Took me a while to find out where I said that.  Philosophy can be used to make up an answer to anything you want.  I find it is often irrelevant for real world problems.  Also there is no proof that things go on infinitely.  That is why I was asking for someone to back up their assertion.  Your metal example asks a question based on faulty assumptions.  Faulty assumption number 1: everything can be divided evenly in half no matter what, 2: that things go away, 3: you use metal instead of an element like iron.  If you have a block of iron, when will it stop being iron?  Answer is when protons and electrons are changed.  If you take away a proton and an electron it is no longer iron it becomes another element.  Remember matter cannot be created or destroyed.   Now about your space inside a square ... it depends on your measurement.  There is an infinite number of numbers between integers which is what I think you are pointing at.  So what?  This same crappy example sounds like Achilles and the tortoise.  Achilles is the fastest runner there ever was.  He is challenged to race a tortoise.  He gives the tortoise a 15 meter head start and then takes off, by the time Achilles reaches 15 meters the tortoise has ran 6, by the time he reaches 6 meters the tortoise has ran 3 ... does Achilles ever beat the tortoise .... of course he does.  This type of thinking is flawed.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"God did not and cannot reveal himself.

So your god is not all powerful then?

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"I'm thinking more along the lines of the Shroud of Turin, Mary appearing in Fatima, big stuff that really can't be explained...

The shroud is a medieval forgery ... scientific testing has proved it.  It is a cloth soaked in a special solution to preserve it and is a perfect negative.  One hypothesis of who made it linked to Leonardo Divinci.  But it's basically wrong from head to toe, evidence has shown the blood was added afterwards to the cloth and that the blood doesn't match the appearance of someone who took the beating Jesus supposedly did.  This is one of the earliest attempts at a camera (lost and rediscovered about 500 years later ... why did Divinci have to burn most of his notes and ideas?  Also one of his surviving fragments shows he thought of the concept of submarines back in that time ... crazy stuff).

I haven't researched Mary in Fatima so I can't comment on that one.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"Neither Christians nor Atheists can prove that God doesn't/does exist.

Or the pink unicorn, or fairies, or Leprechauns, or Zeus, or Thor, or Wootan, or Apollo, or Romulus, etc. etc.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"So basically an atheist argument we are getting closer to discovering that God doesn't exist is invalid, because there are an infinite things left to discover. But that should apply also to the theists saying that we are getting closer to proving that God exists ...right? The difference is that a Theists "proof" cannot be proved... Ha kind of ironic...it seems two sides are just in a big pickle. So maybe we've got all this junk to think about, is it simply about choice?

I've never seen so many Strawmen and unproven assertions in such a little paragraph.  

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"But I'm going to go on a whim and say this. God doesn't exist in the same exact way that we don't understand the meaning of existence. It was said a couple times that "matter proves existence", God isn't matter, we are matter, God is infinite right? He is then above our thinking and above our existence.

I've got a pretty good definition of existence ... what is real.  So when I say your god doesn't exist I am saying he isn't real.  Also to quote Albert Einstein about infinity, "There are two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and i'm not sure about the former."  You can assert everything is infinite all you like but until you have proof there is no reason for us to believe you.

About Fatima.  It started out with three prepubescent girls fasting until one of them had a vision (not unusual during fasts) and the others followed by saying they saw a vision.  Then there was a report of an unusual cloud covering the sun.  This weather phenomenon has been photographed many times and while impressive, it is still weather.  Then there was three predictions kept sealed for years.  One was a vision of hell.  One predicted WWII which was already underway. The last was a vision of the Pope going to heaven.  Religion + the beginning of puberty = Visions.
As for the "miracles"  there supposedly have been 66 official miracles, however all the Catholic sites listing these miracles are no longer in operation.  None of the miracles included the healing of amputees.

About Buddhism:  Karma, as it is normally spoken of, means action and the result of action.  It is not a destination or goal.

Quote from: "Squid"1) Whitney is not a guy.

That explains why she's been using a girl's name as her screen name this whole time!

im not telling you to take my experiences as proof for you, thats MY proof. You need to find your own proof. As for me and my friend, we DO believe in the same thing, whatever "many scholars" believe there are "other scholars" who believe otherwise, so theres no point even mentioning that.

Quote from: "dionysiou"alright well theres no point in me listing miracles that i read in articles or on wiki (who can trust it?) but ive got an older friend of mine who tells me while he was driving he was caught up in a vision, in the vision he is holding onto his girlfriend until Jesus approaches him and begins to gently pull her away and says " Shes set apart for me" My friend is on his knees and looking down, he says " Lord, I am alone" Jesus replies "I will sustain you" and the vision ends and his back in the car. You could say he was only hallucinating but He actually broke up with his girlfriend at that time over it. He's happily married to somebody else now anyway. Ive got another friend of mine who is an evangelist and he spends all his time praying with people and getting guidance from the Holy Spirit. His seen jesus 3 times. finally is the pastor of my church who was in a motorcycle accident when he was 18, He told me he went to heaven and Jesus asked him if he wanted to stay, he told Jesus "no" because he wanted to know him better on earth and actually help some people so he woke up. so yea, ive heard others but i dont personally know the people.

Oh brother. "His seen jesus 3 times." Now what the hell is that supposed to mean?

I saw Jesus tonight. He told me to tell you to LEARN HOW TO WRITE.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"We have an understanding of infinity. The human brain just has a hard time grasping it.

Yeah we might have an "understanding" of infinity as in, aka know what it means. We've got a definition of what it is, and a little symbol too....but we have finite minds, we cannot comprehend infinity.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"purgatory was declared not real by the pope and thus being a Catholic concept isn't [or shouldn't] be part of the Catholic faith ... which leaves hell

Um, I'm pretty sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church still acknowledges Purgatory. Was this declared recently?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"So your god gives infinite rewards for belief but infinite punishment (or at least not reward depending on your particular faith) for thought crimes. How is that moral? It is divisive and creates an us vs them scenario ... either you are a Christian and thus a good person ... or you are evil and spend an spend eternity in torment of some kind. Also it promotes thoughts over actions ... because your god can forgive you if you ask him to or if you repent. How is this moral?

You know what morality is, this universal knowing of right and wrong we some how magically got from a unicorn that farts blue. What is morality not supposed to create? Morality and belief are completely different things. There are bad Christians, and there are Good Atheists. My point was that my belief, my faith, and my character determine my reward.
And you do know what it's like to be sorry right? You can't just go out to kill half a dozen people and expect to get forgiven if you truly aren't sorry, but we are not the ones to judge.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Took me a while to find out where I said that. Philosophy can be used to make up an answer to anything you want. I find it is often irrelevant for real world problems. Also there is no proof that things go on infinitely. That is why I was asking for someone to back up their assertion. Your metal example asks a question based on faulty assumptions. Faulty assumption number 1: everything can be divided evenly in half no matter what, 2: that things go away, 3: you use metal instead of an element like iron. If you have a block of iron, when will it stop being iron? Answer is when protons and electrons are changed. If you take away a proton and an electron it is no longer iron it becomes another element. Remember matter cannot be created or destroyed. Now about your space inside a square ... it depends on your measurement. There is an infinite number of numbers between integers which is what I think you are pointing at. So what? This same crappy example sounds like Achilles and the tortoise. Achilles is the fastest runner there ever was. He is challenged to race a tortoise. He gives the tortoise a 15 meter head start and then takes off, by the time Achilles reaches 15 meters the tortoise has ran 6, by the time he reaches 6 meters the tortoise has ran 3 ... does Achilles ever beat the tortoise .... of course he does. This type of thinking is flawed.

That's exactly what I'm talking about!! But what if you take apart that electron, well that gives you quarks right, and it just keeps going....
And yeah it's Zeno's paradox, just like the arrow in flight. How is that flawed?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"So your god is not all powerful then?

God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"The shroud is a medieval forgery ... scientific testing has proved it. It is a cloth soaked in a special solution to preserve it and is a perfect negative. One hypothesis of who made it linked to Leonardo Divinci. But it's basically wrong from head to toe, evidence has shown the blood was added afterwards to the cloth and that the blood doesn't match the appearance of someone who took the beating Jesus supposedly did. This is one of the earliest attempts at a camera (lost and rediscovered about 500 years later ... why did Divinci have to burn most of his notes and ideas? Also one of his surviving fragments shows he thought of the concept of submarines back in that time ... crazy stuff).

I don't know where you are getting this information at all, but what I've read and seen says nothing about this. The shroud has been scientifically investigated for years and they have not proved any of that. I do agree we don't know that the man is Jesus, we can't prove that. But it's pretty darn close to the story of Jesus' death.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"Neither Christians nor Atheists can prove that God doesn't/does exist.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Or the pink unicorn, or fairies, or Leprechauns, or Zeus, or Thor, or Wootan, or Apollo, or Romulus, etc. etc

So? All of these mystical creatures can be compared to objects that we've literally percieved in our reality. God cannot be perceived or comprehended, neither can infinity, neither can we invent a new color for that matter, right?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"I've never seen so many Strawmen and unproven assertions in such a little paragraph.

I'm just trying to say this. Everybody wants proof but proof itself is such a finite human idea. Basically, it's impossible to get proof of things we can't comprehend, it defies all logic. Theists and Atheists are in a pickle because neither can prove the other wrong.

About the Einstein quote, he said "...and I'm not sure about the former." Kudos to the individual that proves the universe isn't infinite.

i_am_i,  Ill admit i dont care much for sentence structure because the message is more important then how i write it.

Anyway i think its time i say goodbye, so i wanna thank everybody for their input, especially you lonemateria. All you guys got me thinking and answered my questions. Take care everybody, its been a pleasure.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

That sounds a lot more like a cat playing with a mouse than some kind of loving God.

If God were to reveal Himself to people they would still have free will - they could choose to worship Him or not.  Deciding to torture someone for eternity if they can't believe in something with no evidence is a bastard's trick.  If God were to reveal Himself and then you chose not to believe in Him, it would be a bit more fair but still pretty bastardly.  Only a psycho parent would act that way.

If a human father never contacted his child - ever - and required the child to love him without question or that parent would come and torture the child in ghastly ways for as long as possible, that parent would not be welcome in any society on earth.  Humans are more fair and loving than this fantasy of a God.    

The fantasy was created by people in a different age, back when it was still allowable to kill a disobedient child.  I can understand why people from a society where it's OK to have slaves, to kill a disobedient child, and to stone people to death for all sorts of offenses might think the Biblical God to be a reasonable fantasy.  With today's morality, I can't understand why anyone would admire and love the Biblical God.  He's vicious and bloodthirsty, he's jealous and sadistic.  The Biblical God tortures His children, and not just with Hell.  He rewards despicably evil behavior such as infanticide and mass murder.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

This logic is incredibly terrible.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"

Quote from: "Sophus"Fermions and the tachyon.

Thanks Sophus, interesting stuff..I'm gonna read up on this.

Sure thing. Physics is a fun and ever changing subject. What I read on it is usually stripped of the mathematics.  

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the universe being infinite anymore. Originally, I had thought you meant it had either always existed, always will or both.

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

[/quote]

who established that any god is all powerful?
what is this purpose you speak of?

Quote from: "plinkoblinko"Yeah we might have an "understanding" of infinity as in, aka know what it means. We've got a definition of what it is, and a little symbol too....but we have finite minds, we cannot comprehend infinity.

That is one hell of an assertion.  Please prove this.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"Um, I'm pretty sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church still acknowledges Purgatory. Was this declared recently?

Ahh I think I see what happened.  My step-mom is Catholic and I always thought purgatory and limbo were the same thing.  Guess it isn't.  Still in 1999 Pope John Paul II indicated that Purgatory wasn't a place but a state of being.  But limbo got erased in 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5406552.stm
http://www.newsweek.com/id/35211

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"You know what morality is, this universal knowing of right and wrong we some how magically got from a unicorn that farts blue.

Actually it is a part of being a social animal.  What we consider morality (don't kill your family, don't steal, don't be greedy) is commonly found in the wild amongst a variety of social animals, social animals will often times outcast members who violate these rules.  I've seen videos of of one dog getting hit by a car and another one risking their life to pull its friend to safety.  Morality isn't a human construct but an extension of evolution and group selection.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"What is morality not supposed to create? Morality and belief are completely different things. There are bad Christians, and there are Good Atheists. My point was that my belief, my faith, and my character determine my reward.

I'm trying to point out (probably not very well) that this system's main proponent is belief.  What good is belief if you will do the right thing anyway?  All churches know what cuts into their profits.  If I don't need a god or a religion to be good ... and if you are right and I will get rewarded anyway then what is the point of trying to believe in the god concept?  Churches promote that you need faith and belief to be good and you need faith and belief to get into heaven.  You are saying you only need half of that (while it is more to the left) but then what is the point in believing?  There is no point in believing Jesus is your personal lord and savior when you don't need him to go anywhere (though he claims you do in the bible).  

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"And you do know what it's like to be sorry right? You can't just go out to kill half a dozen people and expect to get forgiven if you truly aren't sorry, but we are not the ones to judge.

There are tons of born again Christians on death row.  So what you seem to be saying here is that only if a killer is truly sorry.  And that is moral?  By this messed up system if your killer is truly sorry he killed 6 children he can be forgiven but if any of the children either didn't believe (or broke one of your god's many commandments) then conceivably that child will go to hell while a child murderer goes to heaven.  And how is this a moral system?

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"That's exactly what I'm talking about!! But what if you take apart that electron, well that gives you quarks right, and it just keeps going....
And yeah it's Zeno's paradox, just like the arrow in flight. How is that flawed?

I don't think so.  If I remember correctly quarks only come from protons and neutrons (since electrons are something else entirely).  Also we can't say that it keeps going because there is no evidence it goes on forever.  Oh and like I said Achilles will outrun the tortoise.  Next thing you know you will be trying to pull out Schroedinger's Cat as proof for infinite universe.  I view Zeno's paradox the same way I view miracles ... so what if I can't currently explain it (by the way wiki the thing it tells you solutions with links) it is too big of a leap to justify your claim.  

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

We haven't established anything.  And when you say that your god can't do something then it doesn't make him all powerful.  How would me revealing myself to people defeat the purpose of free will?  I'd pop in every once in a while and say, "Hey i'm just stopping by to check on you ... everything good?"  I mean isn't that what he does with miracles anyway?  You are just making a strange excuse to fit with the notion that your god is real.  Do a quick thought experiment and say what if your god isn't real.  That would explain pretty easily why he doesn't reveal himself.  To say that your god is all powerful, all knowing, but refuses to step in and stop someone from raping a small child because it interferes with the rapists free will means your god is a monster neither worthy or deserving of praise or worship.  But if he isn't real that would explain this pretty well.

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"I don't know where you are getting this information at all, but what I've read and seen says nothing about this. The shroud has been scientifically investigated for years and they have not proved any of that. I do agree we don't know that the man is Jesus, we can't prove that. But it's pretty darn close to the story of Jesus' death.

Maybe you should actually look for information about the shroud that isn't on a catholic website...

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"So? All of these mystical creatures can be compared to objects that we've literally percieved in our reality. God cannot be perceived or comprehended, neither can infinity, neither can we invent a new color for that matter, right?

How convenient about your god... You seem to be able to comprehend him pretty well since you are able to say what he will do and what he won't....

Quote from: "PlinkoBlinko"I'm just trying to say this. Everybody wants proof but proof itself is such a finite human idea. Basically, it's impossible to get proof of things we can't comprehend, it defies all logic. Theists and Atheists are in a pickle because neither can prove the other wrong.

If we were to follow this logic and those assertions science should have given up centuries ago and not even bother with incomprehensible things like electricity, chemistry, calculus, retrograde motion, germs, or medicine.  I'm glad the universe doesn't actually work the way you propose.  Oh and atheists aren't in a pickle because we don't make the claim an invisible sky obsessive, compulsive, murderous, spiteful, hateful being that loves everyone and is able and willing to do anything and is concerned with your sex life... is real.  It's not up to us to prove something doesn't exist ... that is like me saying, "I has a baseballs," and you saying, "prove it," and I hop up and yell, "Prove to me I don't have it".  Not our responsibility, Christians think this is real ... so Christians need to prove it.  Otherwise we have no reason to think it is.

Quote from: "dionysiou"im not telling you to take my experiences as proof for you, thats MY proof. You need to find your own proof. As for me and my friend, we DO believe in the same thing, whatever "many scholars" believe there are "other scholars" who believe otherwise, so theres no point even mentioning that.

... there is no point in mentioning there is archeological evidence for Lord Krishna existing 300-400 years before Jesus... are you serious?  Wow talk about thick.

Quote from: "dionysiou"i_am_i,  Ill admit i dont care much for sentence structure because the message is more important then how i write it.

Anyway i think its time i say goodbye, so i wanna thank everybody for their input, especially you lonemateria. All you guys got me thinking and answered my questions. Take care everybody, its been a pleasure.

Don't leave yet ... I want to figure out how you can just discard actual evidence when it is inconvenient for you.  Not that I want to be an ass it just baffles me.  Maybe you will hop back on and explain to me how you can just discredit actual evidence that your friends gods existed before you and thus yours are based off of his and the other 10 mythological beings I mentioned.  If you do hop back on and have any questions don't hesitate to ask them.

QuoteYou know what morality is, this universal knowing of right and wrong

what is this universal knowing of right and wrong? different nations have different concepts of whats right and whats wrong.
if you get the chance and have HBO watch the show afghan star. its like american idol only in afghanistan. well one contestant was a woman and she didnt win. she didnt win because she danced (kinda.. you could call it that). what she did win is a couple months in hiding and death threats. "she has done wrong. it is improper for a woman to dance and she deserves to die for this." is a quote from the documentary. is this moral to you? im assuming you are going to say no one shouldnt be killed for dancing.
so i dont see how there is a universal knowing of right and wrong.
hell... we cant even decide here in america what is moral/right/wrong.
there are only 2 things i can think of could be considered universal wrongs. that would be killing humans and stealing. yet prisons are pretty full of people who do this....

and LoneMateria i truly enjoyed the above post.  

Quote from: "G-Roll"and LoneMateria i truly enjoyed the above post.  :pop:

Of course, I agree with most everything LoneMateria is saying, but I do appreciate plinko's involvement here too.  Thanks guys!

I'm glad I got some fans.  I figure that my posts drive more people away then bring in.  They are horribly long >.<

Where did Plinko go?  I'm itching to keep going here.

I once stood about four feet distances from a magician who towards the end of his presentation suspended his assistance in mid-air. That was not a trick of magic and as an observer I noticed that he had whispered something to the ears of his assistence just prior to levatating her. Since my field had been psychology I assumed that he had pre-hipnotized her and the words that he whispered were those that will had illiminated her waight and thus making her weight less than a feather. Seeing is not believing cause there is always an explanation, you just have to digged deeper. There are no super-natural forces but I know that there are other existences which are far more advance than we are and who is to say how are they interferring in our everyday life whenever one of them feels like it. This can be both for good or bad. The problem that people have is that they will attributed so called super-natural experiences to their biliefs system or to what they had been tauch and expect it to come from God. It also makes them feel " SPECIAL " when communicating to others that GOD had touched them and had selected him/her out of so many billions of people. They are only deceiving themselves cause of their ignorance about life and existence.

Quote from: "hvargas"Since my field had been psychology I assumed that he had pre-hipnotized her and the words that he whispered were those that will had illiminated her waight and thus making her weight less than a feather.

Wait...what?  You can't hypnotize people into being thin and even if you could they wouldn't float.

Quote from: "hvargas". Since my field had been psychology I assumed that he had pre-hipnotized her and the words that he whispered were those that will had illiminated her waight and thus making her weight less than a feather.

So... because you "know" psychology you think that gravity just doesn't apply anymore ... I really don't know how to argue against something that absurd ... and I argue against an invisible sky monster who will torture you forever and ever because you don't hate gays like him but loves everyone who used dirt to make man, refuses to do anything ever again, but does miracles all the time.  You have crossed a new line of crazy.  Sorry but gravity just magically disappearing takes the cake.  By the way the technical term for magician is Illusionist ... connect a few dots please.

I'm about to be immature.  Get ready.

I was in the forest one day and I came upon this little blue bird.  And I said to the blue bird "get out of my way, bird".  And the little blue bird flew away.  A few moments later, the little bird brought back his friends (birds, raccoons, and other similar forest critters).  It was then that I knew that I was in trouble.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi284.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll25%2FEvolveds_Photos%2FBMG1737DISNEYSNOWWHITEFORESTFRIE-1.jpg&hash=5fe1be4acc3797de8192906755329cd6f70e6831)

My name is Whitney, and I am a guy.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"I know a woman who honestly believes she gets spanked by ghosts while she sleeps.  I don't believe her, I have no reason to believe her, but I think everyone knows someone who has a supernatural story to tell.

Where can I get one of these ghosts?  If you don't know, can I meet your friend?

Quote from: "i_am_i"Oh brother. "His seen jesus 3 times." Now what the hell is that supposed to mean?

I saw Jesus tonight. He told me to tell you to LEARN HOW TO WRITE.

It's pronounced 'hay-soos', and I saw him too.  He was trimming my hedges.(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi284.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll25%2FEvolveds_Photos%2Flmao.gif&hash=7a66520a46b8e507c20dee3a163f6b176d96b7a6)

And why is this thread in science, anyhow?

End rant.

Thanks, you may continue now.

Quote from: "Evolved"And why is this thread in science, anyhow?

because I wasn't paying attention to where it was...moving now

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Evolved"And why is this thread in science, anyhow?

because I wasn't paying attention to where it was...moving now

That's because you rock!  

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi284.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll25%2FEvolveds_Photos%2Fyoureawesome-vi.gif&hash=0c63660b99b64300389c0f9aacbb0c840b2c878f)

Quote from: "hvargas"Since my field had been psychology I assumed that he had pre-hipnotized her and the words that he whispered were those that will had illiminated her waight and thus making her weight less than a feather.

..... ....

Quote from: "Squid"

Quote from: "hvargas"Since my field had been psychology I assumed that he had pre-hipnotized her and the words that he whispered were those that will had illiminated her waight and thus making her weight less than a feather.

..... ....

What's wrong?  Don't you know skience when you hears it?

Quote from: "Evolved"

Quote from: "Squid"

Quote from: "hvargas"Since my field had been psychology I assumed that he had pre-hipnotized her and the words that he whispered were those that will had illiminated her waight and thus making her weight less than a feather.

..... ....

What's wrong?  Don't you know skience when you hears it?

I guess not, damn those universities and all their lies they fed me!!!

The problem with some people is that when a true is expressed they have a big problem in digestin it. I don't study psychol;ogy anymore as I don't particular care for any sort of so called education but I do know a great deal about amny things that people in this forum will never even imagine. There are tricks and there is magic and there no tricks and there is no magic. If one can tell the different between what is and what is not, one is in a more open mind to view, critized and anilyze withough any interferences from any sorts of beliefs -- atheist and theist or any other. Its unfortunate that some of you don't exposed yourself to knowing something about that something in order to give a better opinion. Illusions can come in many forms which is also a part of magic and tricks. If you don't trust your self or your senses or can be easily fool, well thats you.................................................................

Quote from: "hvargas"The problem with some people is that when a true is expressed they have a big problem in digestin it. I don't study psychol;ogy anymore as I don't particular care for any sort of so called education but I do know a great deal about amny things that people in this forum will never even imagine. There are tricks and there is magic and there no tricks and there is no magic. If one can tell the different between what is and what is not, one is in a more open mind to view, critized and anilyze withough any interferences from any sorts of beliefs -- atheist and theist or any other. Its unfortunate that some of you don't exposed yourself to knowing something about that something in order to give a better opinion. Illusions can come in many forms which is also a part of magic and tricks. If you don't trust your self or your senses or can be easily fool, well thats you.................................................................

If you aren't being serious you need to say so now because you are about 1 step away from me considering you a troll.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "hvargas"The problem with some people is that when a true is expressed they have a big problem in digestin it. I don't study psychol;ogy anymore as I don't particular care for any sort of so called education but I do know a great deal about amny things that people in this forum will never even imagine. There are tricks and there is magic and there no tricks and there is no magic. If one can tell the different between what is and what is not, one is in a more open mind to view, critized and anilyze withough any interferences from any sorts of beliefs -- atheist and theist or any other. Its unfortunate that some of you don't exposed yourself to knowing something about that something in order to give a better opinion. Illusions can come in many forms which is also a part of magic and tricks. If you don't trust your self or your senses or can be easily fool, well thats you.................................................................

If you aren't being serious you need to say so now because you are about 1 step away from me considering you a troll.

Why wait?

Quote from: "hvargas"The problem with some people is that when a true is expressed they have a big problem in digestin it. I don't study psychol;ogy anymore as I don't particular care for any sort of so called education but I do know a great deal about amny things that people in this forum will never even imagine. There are tricks and there is magic and there no tricks and there is no magic. If one can tell the different between what is and what is not, one is in a more open mind to view, critized and anilyze withough any interferences from any sorts of beliefs -- atheist and theist or any other. Its unfortunate that some of you don't exposed yourself to knowing something about that something in order to give a better opinion. Illusions can come in many forms which is also a part of magic and tricks. If you don't trust your self or your senses or can be easily fool, well thats you.................................................................

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi284.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll25%2FEvolveds_Photos%2Fbullshit12.jpg&hash=b5282104b65b0c411a068ec2152610340c3d9a87)

Quote from: "dionysiou"ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views? Or if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views? I hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?  So please give me some feedback on how you would react and wether it would be life changing for you.

1. You mean like a magician style miracle? Then wherever they claim to get their "power" from would be irrelevant, I would rather try to figure out the secrete to their trick.

2. No, I hear of so called spiritual experiences all the time from Christians as well as spiritual experiences from non-Christians. It's all in the head and self motivated.

There are so many contradictory experiences that come from various religions that would lead one to ask, "why are people from so many different world views experiencing this?", the obvious conclusion is that it's nothing more than mind tricks.

Quote from: "hvargas"The problem with some people is that when a true is expressed they have a big problem in digestin it. I don't study psychol;ogy anymore as I don't particular care for any sort of so called education but I do know a great deal about amny things that people in this forum will never even imagine. There are tricks and there is magic and there no tricks and there is no magic. If one can tell the different between what is and what is not, one is in a more open mind to view, critized and anilyze withough any interferences from any sorts of beliefs -- atheist and theist or any other. Its unfortunate that some of you don't exposed yourself to knowing something about that something in order to give a better opinion. Illusions can come in many forms which is also a part of magic and tricks. If you don't trust your self or your senses or can be easily fool, well thats you.................................................................

Am I the only one thinking maybe his account somehow got jacked?  If you really believe this hvargas then your critical thinking skills have epically failed you.  You  need to go back to school and not drop out this time because the material is too hard.  Learn more about the human brain and mind and learn how easy it is for it to be tricked.  And while you are at it please spell check your post.  You look like a retard when you are trying to show how superior you are and can't spell simple words.

It is funny how the same things happen to both theists and
atheists, and the interpretation is the only thing that seperates
us on this level.  I mean, seriously, we are all people, and we all
experience the same things.

People have been performing miracles since the beginning of recorded time, either with fraudulent religious motives or as entertainers. I have seen David Blaine float. Criss Angel has walked on water, Ernest Angley has faith-healed about a million people in return for donations, and apparently Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is the current incarnate of Jesus Christ. None of these acts matter because they are illusions or frauds mixed with the occasional coincidence. Seeing is not always believing when you have the rationality to realize that what you see isn't always what it seems.

Due to my limits of time in the library, I must read and respond while thinking how to expressed my thoughts and be understood within the limits of less than 45 minutes. My spelling at times seems bad but thats o'k by me. On the other hand you beleive in the so called Eduacational System. You do not get " EDUCATION " in school what you received is " INSTRUCTIONS " . Instructions on how to do such and such and if you graps it then you stand a better chance at scoring well in the exam when it is given. Once you had finished all of your instructional training then you stand a better chance at earning so much money. If you do not go through the process of RE-INSTRUCTING (and a step higher), RE-EDUCATING yourself than  you will be left with a lot of garbage in your brain. There is no such thing as EDUCATION in school. Education you receive from your PARENTS if they are smart enough to regconized it. I had done all sorts of jobs, from washing dishes to general manager and on the way I had found that a University degree does not make an individual a so called PROFESSIONAL. In conversations with many of this so called highly educated people, I had uncovered that they tend to be more ignorant than when they begun their so called education. My son I educated and he graduated as a system engineer. I prepared him and today he thanks me cause he managed to go through all his math beyond CALCULES, if I misspelled it you can correct it. I will tell you a bit about myself, today I work as a MOVER, that is I moved people from place to place. I sleep in a train cause I don't have an a place to live here in the U.S. I owned a house with my wife and children in the dominican republic. We are still building it, a two story home and we are almost done with it. I'm their sole provider even though I had assisted my wife as well as preparing herself with various professional skills. Today she owns a Salon in D.R. I still don't care for the so called Educational systems and I'm extremely glad that I don't have a college degree. I don't have to thank anyone for my knowlege.

So, for those of us who are wasting our time with "instructions", exactly how do we "re-educate" ourselves and how do we go about acquiring this knowledge?

My college was part "instructions" and part learn on your own.  

Do you think your son would know squat about engineering if he hadn't gone through the instructional part of school?

The knowledge we have today is gained from standing on the shoulders of wise wo/men who came before us.

ps:  you should care about spelling; especially since you can include a spell checker on your browser (how do you think I avoid most of my typos?) If I was going to have someone move my stuff I might not hire them if they have a lot of spelling errors on their contract forms.

I was actually going to start reading hvargas's post.  However after reading two sentences I could see that it was pointless then Whit and Squid confirmed it.  Hvargas I understand you are not very educated and you think that not going to college is a great decision, and it really explains a lot about you.  I really wish the government would spend more money on education so we have less people with your mentality.  Calcules is actually spelled calculus ... maybe that is how you pronounce it ... but that is not how it is spelled.  Like Whit pointed out you can have Spell Check by default into any competent browser (poor IE is not included).  Now that i'm done being a complete ass i'm going to step back for a second and be a every day honest ass to you.

Why don't I care what you say hvargas?  Because you pride yourself on being uneducated.  Why is it that I probably won't seriously respond to any of your posts?  Because no one listens to uneducated people as sources of authority on any subject.  I think it has something to do with them being wrong a disproportional number of times.  Am I saying I'm some genius because I have some formal education?  No, far from it.  I'm smart in my field of study (in this case Computer Programming) and I know i'm not smart in every area.  Some people like to think they are smarter in everything then educated people, but though it is hilarious it is delusional and a sign of mental instability.  Seriously you are trying to act superior to people from a library computer living in a train with your family.  I don't know whether to laugh or cry for you.

Whit sorry for being such an ass to this person but when someone is either this delusional or this big of a liar (not saying he is but i'm entertaining the possibility due to absurdity) I really am at a loss of kind words to say.  Sometimes people need to point out when someone is so egregiously delusional and accept there is probably nothing we will say that will change their mind and we should say what we really feel about it since it will be ignored anyway.  Who knows someone else might benefit from reading this.

@OP: Seeing alone should not be believing, however if you could show that you perform this "miracle" whenever you wanted so that others could test and verify that it is really a miracle. If that were possible then I would at least believe that this thing is currently unexplained but real. However it would take a lot more than that to show that the power comes from a god, a way to verify that is to show that anyone who claims to have the power of that god in them to be able to perform the same miracle as well as people without the power of that god not being able to perform the miracle. I.E.: a hurricane wipes out 10,000 people and no Christian dies (or at least significantly more Christians survive consistently through several disasters). So no and yes.

For the second thing: testimony alone is not worth anything to me. Not even from scientists who know what they're talking about. In he case of scientists, it takes more than just them saying so, they need to explain it, demonstrate it and show that it can be independently verified. So definitely not.

But if you could provide demonstrable and independently verifiable evidence, that would help. Because if there were good evidence for a god I would believe in the god. I'm not attached to my beliefs, in that I would drop anything I take for truth if someone could provide sufficient evidence that what I thought was real is wrong.

Quote from: "wjennings1977"It is funny how the same things happen to both theists and
atheists, and the interpretation is the only thing that seperates
us on this level.  I mean, seriously, we are all people, and we all
experience the same things.

Nice.  

First step in Re-Educating yourself is to asked yourself various questions: Who is wise ? When you locate him/her, what makes them wise ? If you anylized them deeply you will find that so and so is not WISE. Aristotle was said to be a wise men as well as a philosopher. He lasted till the late 19th. centruy. Throw everything out and start all over asking the right questions and most all giving yourself the answers and not from someone else. I attended varoius colleges, major in psychology with a minor in history. Later I included teaching as a major. Don't mis-understand my point when regard to EDUCATION. Some may think highly of it cause they may feel that it had molded them into the perosn that they are today. There are many things that are wrong with school and thy don't produce " GOOD INDIVIDUALS ". I did all of my schooling here in the U.S., I hav more than 18 years of it under my belt but one day I woke up and suddenly realized that I had a lot of garbage in my brain. I started re-reading most of the materials that I had study but with another point of referrence. When you start school as a child you are tauch to be PAITRIOTIC, you are presented with the founding fathers of your nation and you learned the traditions. History is presented to you in disguise and wise men are also presented in the same manner. As you get older you learned to respond according to what you had been feat but most important as an adult you respond to POLITICAL and SOCIAL conditions according to what the various MEDIAS presents you with. They know how to arouse you to swim one way or the other, you become control but think not. Once you get rid of what has been placed in your brain you can then see through the cracks immediately. No one can fool you. There are no GREAT NATIONS and just cause you have all these technical gagets it does not make any one nation great. I was telling a co-worker who is a thiest, you are a life and as a living existence you are a part of existence, no one has the right to disturb your life or molest it. You don't have to begged anyone on your knees and all must respect you as you must respect all other life/existences. This is you right as a living being. There are those who VIOLATE LIFE as well as controlling it. Its a little difficult to try and explained it cause everyone has its own point of views and most won't want to do away with what they had live so closely with for so many decades. With what will they replace it with? My co-workers say " you don't eat meat, don't do drugs, don't drink not even beer and you are faithfull to your wife, you are the real christian " . " Yet you say you don't believe in GOD but believe in EXISTENCES ". I tell them, the problem is that you all are a product of SOCIETY and feel that to live life you must do what everyone else is doing. I further tell them that " TO BE A GOOD PERSON YOU DON"T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN ANYTHING BUT ONCE YOU DO, YOU CEASE BEING A GOOD PERSON ". Remember you define good for you. How you are tauch to lie, " the phone rings, honey answer that and tell him/her that I'm not here " . This is something that most children are tauch early on or something like it. My children learned the world views and they learned my views, they attended and one is still attending a christian private school. I have no problem with that cause they will have to deal with the world as it is but along the way they will recalled my teachings cause its all TRUE. BE YOUR OWN MAKER AND NOT A REFLECTION OF SOMEONE ELSE OR A COPY.

At the risk of straying too far off topic, assuming anything much worth discussing remains of it;

Hvargas, please explain precisely what you mean by this statement, in as few words as you can manage, with special attention to the highlighted portion:

Quote from: "hvargas"TO BE A GOOD PERSON YOU DON"T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN ANYTHING BUT ONCE YOU DO, YOU CEASE BEING A GOOD PERSON

You've said this once before and, as I remember one or two of us took exception to it in its former context. In its present context it seems slightly more innocuous, but I really hope to understand where you're coming from before entering another discussion with you about it or simply writing you off as a nutter.


Thanks.

There are words that I write all the times and see over and over in my readings. At times I mis-spelled them and at other times they come clear as water. I don't give much thought to it and no I don't hold much pride but I do for myself. Unlike some that think that others are the one to say what you are, like don't complement yourself, thats for others to say. My wife does not live with me here in the U.S., at this time here I'm alone though I have two brothers, one in Los Angeles and the other in Oregon. If you do not trust youeself or your senses it does not mean that my senses are untrustworthy. If I witness something that I can't explain, I discard it or store it as a point of referrence or until such a time that it may recurred again. I do know things that can't be put into words but thats for me to know and no one elses. The point is at what point do you place your senses when face with something that questions " If seeing is believing " . There are many things that can happen and that can be made to happen for which you will not have the chance of seeing it being repeated. In your life and in the life of everyone reading this post a couple of things will occurred that will leave each and everyone of you wondering and with no explanations. At that time you can choose to denied what had happen or to accept it as some true and not an illusion. Then you will tried to locate this post.

a little story to illustrate: this person is approach by another, the first person claims not to believe in God. Up to that day he/she was a good person but was convince by the second person to become a believer. As a believer it choose a faith and its faith it considered to be THE TRUE FAITH THAT ALL SHOULD FOLLOW. It critized and pointed to all the ills of the other faith and what those people practice. It thought itself being right and others wrong even though they too believe. This is in the way of religion. In the way of POLITICS: Each person wants his/hers party to be the winner and each want to present the other as the NO GOOD for the country. In the FAMILY: Though, they love one another they hurt one another cause of their different in areas of NEEDS AND WANTS. OUR beliefs systems causes us to be other than good and along those beliefs systems with define GOOD. Many people want to be good but find themselves in conflict with their NEEDS AND WANTS which conflicts with the NEEDS AND WANTS of others. If you discard all of your beliefs that are in conflict then you can managed to get closer to being a GOOD PERSON. This is not a religion or a philosophy or a way of life, this is just being you as the one that was borned before the world place all this destructive characteristics in you. I hope that this may give you some understanding of what I mean by it.

Quote from: "hvargas"TO BE A GOOD PERSON YOU DON"T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN ANYTHING BUT ONCE YOU DO, YOU CEASE BEING A GOOD PERSON.

Actually I can see some truth in that statement.

Quote from: "hvargas"THE TRUE FAITH THAT ALL SHOULD FOLLOW.  POLITICS:  FAMILY:  NEEDS AND WANTS. OUR GOOD.  NEEDS AND WANTS NEEDS AND WANTS  GOOD PERSON.

I filtered out everything that was NOT IN CAPS, but it does need seem to have distilled sense from your post. Maybe if I clean it it up a little. . .

THE TRUE FAITH THAT ALL SHOULD FOLLOW  POLITICS.  FAMILY  NEEDS AND WANTS OUR GOOD,  NEEDS AND WANTS, NEEDS, AND WANTS  GOOD PERSON.

So, once I redistribute the punctuation thus, we see that the faith all people should follow is politics. Family (as in the Adams family) both needs and wants; our good, it wants (and needs) to have wants and needs, it wants (and needs) needs (again, two portions of need),  and wants (sans needs, just wants) a good person.

Once we got the punctuation sorted, I see it makes sense now, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't know why no one else in thsi thread could see that, it was staring them in the face!

Some theists rarely even think about God; they're almost apatheists despite their beliefs. Thus they act on good will because they really want to.

Quote from: "Sophus"Some theists rarely even think about God; they're almost apatheists despite their beliefs. Thus they act on good will because they really want to.

True. I would add that, even among theists who do think quite a bit about their god, there are those who seldom allow that thinking to cloud their otherwise good moral judgement, at least in practice. Thus, they too act on good will because they really want to. Sometimes, even in spite of their religious 'convictions'. After all, not everyone aspires to such flawless, logical consistency between belief and actions as we philosophical thinkers sometimes dream about. The scary ones are the religious fundamentalists who really do aspire to and demand that level of consistency.


/thread derailment

Quote from: "dionysiou"ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

No. But if everyone could perform the "miracle" and achieve the same results, I would reconsider my views of natural laws.

QuoteOr if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views?

No. Anecdotal evidence means nothing to me. There is no way to verify the information.

QuoteI hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?  

No. I would find a psychotherapist.

QuoteSo please give me some feedback on how you would react...

I don't know how I would react. Without some sort of frame for reference, who's to say what I would do.

Quote...and wether it would be life changing for you.

Same as above.

Quote from: "hvargas"First step in Re-Educating yourself is to asked yourself various questions: Who is wise ? When you locate him/her, what makes them wise ? If you anylized them deeply you will find that so and so is not WISE. Aristotle was said to be a wise men as well as a philosopher. He lasted till the late 19th. centruy. Throw everything out and start all over asking the right questions and most all giving yourself the answers and not from someone else. I attended varoius colleges, major in psychology with a minor in history. Later I included teaching as a major. Don't mis-understand my point when regard to EDUCATION. Some may think highly of it cause they may feel that it had molded them into the perosn that they are today. There are many things that are wrong with school and thy don't produce " GOOD INDIVIDUALS ". I did all of my schooling here in the U.S., I hav more than 18 years of it under my belt but one day I woke up and suddenly realized that I had a lot of garbage in my brain. I started re-reading most of the materials that I had study but with another point of referrence. When you start school as a child you are tauch to be PAITRIOTIC, you are presented with the founding fathers of your nation and you learned the traditions. History is presented to you in disguise and wise men are also presented in the same manner. As you get older you learned to respond according to what you had been feat but most important as an adult you respond to POLITICAL and SOCIAL conditions according to what the various MEDIAS presents you with. They know how to arouse you to swim one way or the other, you become control but think not. Once you get rid of what has been placed in your brain you can then see through the cracks immediately. No one can fool you. There are no GREAT NATIONS and just cause you have all these technical gagets it does not make any one nation great. I was telling a co-worker who is a thiest, you are a life and as a living existence you are a part of existence, no one has the right to disturb your life or molest it. You don't have to begged anyone on your knees and all must respect you as you must respect all other life/existences. This is you right as a living being. There are those who VIOLATE LIFE as well as controlling it. Its a little difficult to try and explained it cause everyone has its own point of views and most won't want to do away with what they had live so closely with for so many decades. With what will they replace it with? My co-workers say " you don't eat meat, don't do drugs, don't drink not even beer and you are faithfull to your wife, you are the real christian " . " Yet you say you don't believe in GOD but believe in EXISTENCES ". I tell them, the problem is that you all are a product of SOCIETY and feel that to live life you must do what everyone else is doing. I further tell them that " TO BE A GOOD PERSON YOU DON"T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN ANYTHING BUT ONCE YOU DO, YOU CEASE BEING A GOOD PERSON ". Remember you define good for you. How you are tauch to lie, " the phone rings, honey answer that and tell him/her that I'm not here " . This is something that most children are tauch early on or something like it. My children learned the world views and they learned my views, they attended and one is still attending a christian private school. I have no problem with that cause they will have to deal with the world as it is but along the way they will recalled my teachings cause its all TRUE. BE YOUR OWN MAKER AND NOT A REFLECTION OF SOMEONE ELSE OR A COPY.

wall of text posts hurt my eyes...didn't read.

Everyone else, please let me know when you also decide that hvargas is trolling or otherwise not able to discuss productively.

I do not know whether the OP has quit the forum or just the discussion on this thread I would like just to drop in and reply

Miracles..hmm..what is a miracle..it is an action outside natural laws right?
Attributing natural phenomena to god or Ra, Mum-Ra, Zeus, Belial etc etc leads me to think that whatever that deity is named they are bound to laws of nature.
Bending the laws of nature and perform something outside of that set of rules automatically grants it the supernatural label.. So a bird flying next to us is it supernatural?
As far as I know Christians do not believe in the existence of other gods, and saying that God is not the only one performing miracles sounds a bit disconcerting christian-wise.
Now, if someone came to me and say..heyyyyy, this miracle happenned to me, then good for him/her.
You have your own personal experiences that only you can attest to their truthfulness. No matter how hard you try, you cannot convince me otherwise nor I can.

QuoteRegarding the miracle: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." What constitutes a miracle is totally subjective. One person's miracle is another person's magnet trick.

Yeah, it's basically that. if someone performed a 'miracle' in front of me I would want to make sure that there was no trick involved, or any naturalistic explanation to it. If I failed to find one, then I would ask someone who might find a naturalistic reason. If that person failed, I would ask another. Even if nobody I asked knew, I still don't know if I would think it was supernatural in any way and that either we all missed the trick, or we don't know the real explanation behind it yet.

Quote from: "dionysiou"ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views? Or if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views? I hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?  So please give me some feedback on how you would react and wether it would be life changing for you.

I would look for the invisible wires.

I, personally have a religious mind.  I will believe anything I can convince myself of.  I would love to believe in Jesus, God, Heaven, Krishna, Shiva, Ganesh, The Angel Gabriel, The Prophet Muhammad, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  But... I have thoughts.  And my thoughts are constantly pushing my faith onto a smaller and smaller reservation (I'm still on board with Karma and Reincarnation.  NO GOD ~ I still count as an Atheist).

So, If a friend told me that they had had a spiritual experience, and they chalked it up to the Holy Spirit, I wouldn't convert to Christianity.  If he turned water into wine, walked on a pond, or fed a town with fish and bread, I'd think he's a clever magician, like David Blane, or Chris Angel (Angel of Christ).  Even if there were genuinely unexplainable magic happening before my eyes, how do I know it's the Holy Spirit? It could be Brahman, Elohim, The Triple Goddess, Zeus, The FSM, or the Dao?  So, I have a High bar for Miracles.

If a friend came up to me, and invited me on a trip to Heaven, Shot me in the head, and committed suicide, and we both woke up at the pearly gates and Jesus Christ shook my hand, and I went to a Carnival with God, and spent the day having fun with all the saints, angels, and magical ghosts, AND THEN got resurrected in a morgue, and I still had Heaven-Money in my pocket to prove I wasn't hallucinating, THEN I would convert to Christianity.  Anything short of a personal, PROVABLE, encounter with Jesus Christ, is not enough for me to believe anything.

My Damn Thoughts would get in the way.

Quote from: "dionysiou"ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment.

Ok

Quote from: "dionysiou"If somebody were to perform what they claimed to be a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

No. They would have to do much more than perform what they claimed to be a miracle. They would have to prove it was a miracle. They would have to prove that the only explanation for the demonstrated phenomenon were supernatural.

Quote from: "dionysiou"Or if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views?

No. Because this would be an entirely subjective assessment on the part of my friend. Because he was my friend I would do my very best to to ensure they sort appropriate psychiatric help.

Quote from: "dionysiou"I hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?

No. Because none of the above is 'acceptable' evidence. What is acceptable? Well there are two measures that I feel could be used as benchmarks. The first would be 'If there was a legal trial would the 'evidence' be admissible in court?' As far as I know supernatural phenomenon are not acceptable as evidence in a court of law, at least since we stopped burning witches to death. The second would be 'Does the phenomenon stand up to rigorous scientific investigation?' Well if it didn't make it past the first hurdle I doubt it would make it pass the second.

Quote from: "dionysiou"So please give me some feedback on how you would react and wether it would be life changing for you.

No. It would not be life changing because personal anecdotal subjective experiences are not 'evidence' upon which I would base my world view.

Another hypothetical for you. Suppose the person performing this miracle, which you believe 100% to be a true miracle, were performed by a Muslim. Would you convert and if not why not?

No, if somebody who was a stranger did that to me and claimed it was the holy spirit, I would be skeptical of course, and think he was pulling a trick on me, and tell him to go away.

My family members (especially my mother, she has bipolar) has claimed that through the power of 'Christ', they survived car crashes, which just makes me laugh. My mom said that she saw my Aunt in a dream when she wasn't supposed to open up a door with demons in it, and she was at a bar drinking water and she was talking to her, which doesn't make any senseseeming as if it is A DREAM. Also, she claims that she saw her guardian angel before, and the angel ran away from her or something after they said "*named censored*, it is going to be OK", which I do not believe. She also takes the Bible out of context and claims that "God" talks to her. Crazy stuff, I know, but it still doesn't convince me because based on her mental state and tendency to lie (which she does often) is unconvincing.

So, no, it doesn't change my view. The only thing that would is if I saw a big dude out of the sky claiming he was God and told everybody in the world, twice. That is about the only evidence that matters.

Is human presence in this world not an evidence that God really exist?

Quote from: "byesadness"Is human presence in this world not an evidence that God really exist?

I don't think so, no.  Why would you suggest that?

Quote from: "byesadness"Is human presence in this world not an evidence that God really exist?

No. The presence of humans here is evidence of evolution.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "byesadness"Is human presence in this world not an evidence that God really exist?

No. The presence of humans here is evidence of evolution.

Ahh...you beat me to it.

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "byesadness"Is human presence in this world not an evidence that God really exist?

No. The presence of humans here is evidence of evolution.

Ahh...you beat me to it.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg520.imageshack.us%2Fimg520%2F5051%2Fhi5hn4.gif&hash=6af7321f5a5664b281327a5b401647801b0f2c5c)

Quote from: "hvargas"I once stood about four feet distances from a magician who towards the end of his presentation suspended his assistance in mid-air. That was not a trick of magic and as an observer I noticed that he had whispered something to the ears of his assistence just prior to levatating her. Since my field had been psychology I assumed that he had pre-hipnotized her and the words that he whispered were those that will had illiminated her waight and thus making her weight less than a feather.

I really don't think that's what psychologists (or even hypnotists for that matter) mean when they say "mind over matter" - matter being subject to gravitational forces and not the mind. You can't bypass physical reality simply by willing it.