Happy Atheist Forum

We've probalby all heard this question at one point or another, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound? I originaly intended to post this in the science section, the reason? I recently tried to disprove this statement from a physics standpoint, however with a limited understanding my arguments had some flaws. So I want to know what you think, does a tree make a sound? How did you conclude this? Any other details would be helpful.

If there is no ear to pick up the sound waves and no brain to process the sensations of the ear, then, there are sound waves but no sound.

Quote from: "notself"If there is no ear to pick up the sound waves and no brain to process the sensations of the ear, then, there are sound waves but no sound.

Good answer! Never thought of it that way, but it makes sense.

yes but since there ARE sound waves, then there IS a sound, no?

I would say yes, as sound waves can affect things such as move leaves, make waves or high frequencies can break glass, even if no one is around to observe.

Along the same line, when you are dead and can sense nothing, does the universe exist?  Did it ever exist?

The correct answer to the question, "if a tree falls in the forrest and no one os there to hear it, does it make a sound?" is:

Quotesound
1â€, â€,/saÊŠnd/ Show Spelled[sound] Show IPA
â€"noun
1.
the sensation produced by stimulation of the organs of hearing by vibrations transmitted through the air or other medium.

no...

Quote2.
mechanical vibrations transmitted through an elastic medium, traveling in air at a speed of approximately 1087 ft. (331 m) per second at sea level.

yes....

Quote3.
the particular auditory effect produced by a given cause: the sound of music.

no...

Quote4.
any auditory effect; any audible vibrational disturbance: all kinds of sounds.

yes...

Quote5.
a noise, vocal utterance, musical tone, or the like: the sounds from the next room.

um...depends on the definition?

Quote6.
a distinctive, characteristic, or recognizable musical style, as from a particular performer, orchestra, or type of arrangement: the big-band sound.

oh, definitely.....hehe

Quote7.
Phonetics.
a.
speech sound.
b.
the audible result of an utterance or portion of an utterance: the s-sound in “slight”; the sound of m in “mere.”

ehh, yeah, probably not...

Quote8.
the auditory effect of sound waves as transmitted or recorded by a particular system of sound reproduction: the sound of a stereophonic recording.

yup...

Quote9.
the quality of an event, letter, etc., as it affects a person: This report has a bad sound.

ah...usually not...

Quote10.
the distance within which the noise of something may be heard.

wow, by definition, no less...

Quote11.
mere noise, without meaning: all sound and fury.

hmmm....possibly?


and finally,

Quote12.
Archaic. a report or rumor; news; tidings.

newp.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sound

^or in other words, it's a simplistic childhood question that doesn't itself take into account that "sound" has more than one definition.

So, the correct answer is: it depends on what you mean by sound.

If no one was around to hear the tree fall how would we know if a tree had fallen in the first place?.

Aside from the semantics, if on a ramble through the woods we find a fallen tree we can, taking all the available evidence into account, assume that the tree's falling would have probably made some sound.

This question seems to me to stem from a theistic mindset, one that requires a conciousness to at least observe a physical process for it to happen.

Obviously I can't be 100% certain that anything occurs without me being around to see it so back to square one.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Quote from: "notself"What is the sound of one hand clapping?

I'm guessing a whoosh then the sound of someone trying to regain their balance?...

please tell me im not the only one who can clap with one hand. you just slap your finger tips on your palm... yes it counts.

i hate the tree in the woods question. its as retarded as why did the chicken cross the road.
if sound is sound waves to be picked up be ears, then why would no sound waves be produced just because YOU are not there.
i suppose this kind of logic is also what led us to believe the sun, and whole universe orbited us here on earth. like nothing happens... ever.... if YOU are not there. when YOU die the whole world dies with YOU. ego... damn the ego.

p.s. this was originally not going to be a rant, just a reply.

also this post is not directed at anyone.

G-Roll out...

The sound of one hand clapping can be made by slapping one's thigh.  

Quote from: "G-Roll"please tell me im not the only one who can clap with one hand. you just slap your finger tips on your palm... yes it counts.

i hate the tree in the woods question. its as retarded as why did the chicken cross the road.
if sound is sound waves to be picked up be ears, then why would no sound waves be produced just because YOU are not there.
i suppose this kind of logic is also what led us to believe the sun, and whole universe orbited us here on earth. like nothing happens... ever.... if YOU are not there. when YOU die the whole world dies with YOU. ego... damn the ego.

p.s. this was originally not going to be a rant, just a reply.

also this post is not directed at anyone.

G-Roll out...

See, I like the tree in the woods question because I feel like it's a great reminder to people that just because they aren't involved, that doesn't stop anything.  Trees still make sounds when they fall over whether humans are there to witness it or not, the sun still shines even if humans aren't basking in the sunlight, that kind of thing.  Humans have a habit of making everything human-centric and I see this particular question as a response to that.

QuoteIf a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

surely if you just leave a microphone on near the tree you expect to fall, make sure there is absolutely no one around to hear the crash, then listen to the recording later that would answer your question.
On a purely common sense note: The sun has risen every morning for billions of years. If one morning every person in the world happened to sleep past sunrise and there was no one there to witness it, that doesn't mean it would suddenly defy the basic laws of physics and rise in the West, or not shed light, or not rise at all, or something equally trite.
However, if you want to do this research from a semantics perspective I would vote for taking the definition route ellibean so neatly laid out.

I do sem to remeber this question before. Regardless I still think it's silly. Just because there is no witness does not mean something didn't occur.

Your house catches on fire but no one is around to see it did it still burn down. Yes. A lack of a witness does not change an events occurance. Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

Colors, on the other hand, don't exist until they are seen.

Quote from: "Tanker"I do sem to remeber this question before. Regardless I still think it's silly. Just because there is no witness does not mean something didn't occur.

Your house catches on fire but no one is around to see it did it still burn down. Yes. A lack of a witness does not change an events occurance. Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

I think we are confusing sound waves with audible sound.  Sound waves exist even if no one is around, but audible sound requires an ear and a brain.

QuoteSound is the quickly varying pressure wave within a medium.We usually mean audible sound, which is the sensation (as detected by the ear) of very small rapid changes in the air pressure above and below a static value. This “static” value is atmospheric pressure (about 100,000 Pascals) which does nevertheless vary slowly, as shown on a barometer. Associated with the sound pressure wave is a flow of energy.

Information provided by: http://www.decibels.demon.co.uk (http://www.decibels.demon.co.uk)

[/color]

Quote from: "notself"

Quote from: "Tanker"I do sem to remeber this question before. Regardless I still think it's silly. Just because there is no witness does not mean something didn't occur.

Your house catches on fire but no one is around to see it did it still burn down. Yes. A lack of a witness does not change an events occurance. Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

I think we are confusing sound waves with audible sound.  Sound waves exist even if no one is around, but audible sound requires an ear and a brain.

QuoteSound is the quickly varying pressure wave within a medium.We usually mean audible sound, which is the sensation (as detected by the ear) of very small rapid changes in the air pressure above and below a static value. This “static” value is atmospheric pressure (about 100,000 Pascals) which does nevertheless vary slowly, as shown on a barometer. Associated with the sound pressure wave is a flow of energy.

Information provided by: http://www.decibels.demon.co.uk (http://www.decibels.demon.co.uk)

[/color]

We? So you mean the imperial we? Unless you are trying to claim we are both mistaken which would be wierd if you're trying to correct me. LOL

So you are trying to say that without something to register the sound (ie; ears) it never happened? According too your reply sound waves don't equal sound. So with my original example if no one feels the heat or sees the flame your house should be fine?

How about a star 100 light years away went supernova 50 years ago. Is it still a star or a rapidly expanding ball of gas. Answer: expanding ball of gas we just don't know it yet. Just because we don't witness an event (tree falling) or it's effect (sound) does not mean the event or effects never happened.

Quote from: "Tanker"We? So you mean the imperial we? Unless you are trying to claim we are both mistaken which would be wierd if you're trying to correct me. LOL

So you are trying to say that without something to register the sound (ie; ears) it never happened? According too your reply sound waves don't equal sound. So with my original example if no one feels the heat or sees the flame your house should be fine?

How about a star 100 light years away went supernova 50 years ago. Is it still a star or a rapidly expanding ball of gas. Answer: expanding ball of gas we just don't know it yet. Just because we don't witness an event (tree falling) or it's effect (sound) does not mean the event or effects never happened.

I meant that neither of us had defined what we meant by sound.  I meant audible sound using the ear.  It appears that you are using sound (pressure) waves.

Pressure waves exist whether there is an "experience" of the wave or not.  Audible sound requires an ear.

QuoteAudible sound requires an ear

why would sound require an ear? sound requires nothing.
your ear requires sound to work, to be useful. i doubt sound could care less if you heard it nor not.  :P

But if no one is there to step in it, does it still smell bad?

This thread has gotten a few replies so to make things interesting here's what I reasoned. Enjoy

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

Logically, it should, the laws of physics should not cease to take effect due to lack of an observer. This is, however, not a new idea, ever since Erwin Schrödinger proposed his dual wave function theory there has been a doubt; does an event require an observer to confirm its existence? Fortunately the problem was solved, he theorized an experiment where a cat was placed in a box with a machine that had a 50% chance of breaking a bottle of poison, his theory stipulated that you could not know the state of the cat until some outside observer confirmed it and that until its state was verified it would exist in both states at once. This caused outrage in the science community, Schrödinger himself attempted to eliminate this problem. Eventually a solution was found, you could determine the state of the cat without visual confirmation, an object’s existence is determined by its interaction with other matter and energy. Therefore the instant the cat touches the box were struck by a cosmic ray or a subatomic particle its state would be confirmed without an actual witness. Therefore a tree, which comprises many millions of particles, can verify its own existence, the instant it has any interaction with the wind or the ground it will produce a predictable physical reaction. Furthermore, the assumption that events require intelligent confirmation is arrogant and egotistical; the only way a particle’s existence could be called into question is in a complete zero energy vacuum completely devoid of matter.

Think of it this way: We say in space there is no sound. What is meant by that is, without molecules in the air, vibrations cannot travel. So naturally, given a witness floating about in space with fully functioning ears, they would not hear any sound due to the environment he/she's in. Place him or her in that forest and they do, obviously, hear that tree fall.

However, if you define it this way

Quote"Sound is a traveling wave which is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas, composed of frequencies within the range of hearing and of a level sufficiently strong to be heard, or the sensation stimulated in organs of hearing by such vibrations,"

then no, the tree falling does not make a sound since it is not heard.
It's all tricky semantics that distracts from understanding the real concepts trying to be communicated. We needn't be so pedantic by trying to stick to one definition of sound because, as demonstrated, it has been used to convey different concepts.

In neither case is an observer required for the event itself to exist.

Quote from: "Sophus"In neither case is an observer required for the event itself to exist.

Damn that pesky observer effect.  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Damn that pesky observer effect.  lol I dunno, Schrödinger's Cat is a little different from this... no? The whole observer effect is misleading after all. If Bohr and Heisenberg had used the term "measurements made by inanimate instruments" rather than "observer" we wouldn't have such confusion being created by the New Agers. When I had used the term "observer" previously, I was referring to a conscious being with functioning senses.

This is a question which we all learned to answer to while we were developing our cognitive ability's at the age of 2 months. When a object is hidden, we learn it is still there instead of it simply just disappearing. I do not doubt that the world still goes when I am asleep. There for, things make sounds when I am not present.

Another answer is: Other animals besides humans also have the ability to capture and translate sound waves. Whether you believe it must make sound waves only or must it be heard, it is a forest, and there are animals.

I was under the impression that, under the observer effect, anything could act as the observer?

So in the case of the cat, the observation takes place when the geiger counter goes off, killing the cat.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, except for a bunch of owls, mice, squirrels and other forest dwelling animals, does it make a sound? I think for every tree that falls there will be critters around to hear it.

Lets take this to the next level!

If an asteroid lands on the Moon and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I know there's a vacuum but sound waves will still travel through the ground.

The “observers” of the observer effect are not anything that requires a consciousness. Rather they are the measurements of tools, used back in the Copenhagen interpretation, and still today demonstrate it is not that we, as human beings, can shape reality with our minds, as it is that the universe creates it's own reality from moment to moment, of which we are a part.  A classic example of an observer influencing the phenomenon being observed is that of a mercury thermometer which absorbs thermal energy while measuring a temperature. The observer effect deals with scientific accuracy of such records.

Quote from: "Tanker"Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

This very well could be the beginning of an entirely different topic. Or a very interesting experiment of pushing large objects over in a vacuum jar.

Quote from: "Tanker"Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

When a tree falls in a empty forest it does produce pressure waves.  The pressure waves produce no sound unless they come in contact with a receiver (ear and brain).

A tree falling in a vacuum produces no sound waves.  Even if a receiver were present no sound would be heard because no pressure wave would be produced in a vacuum.

If a tree were to fall in a forest and there was no one to hear, it would produce pressure waves.  That is all.

Quote from: "notself"

Quote from: "Tanker"Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

When a tree falls in a empty forest it does produce pressure waves.  The pressure waves produce no sound unless they come in contact with a receiver (ear and brain).

A tree falling in a vacuum produces no sound waves.  Even if a receiver were present no sound would be heard because no pressure wave would be produced in a vacuum.

If a tree were to fall in a forest and there was no one to hear, it would produce pressure waves.  That is all.

+1. Nice and succinct.  

Quote from: "Faradaympp"We've probalby all heard this question at one point or another, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound? I originaly intended to post this in the science section, the reason? I recently tried to disprove this statement from a physics standpoint, however with a limited understanding my arguments had some flaws. So I want to know what you think, does a tree make a sound? How did you conclude this? Any other details would be helpful.

But if you need firewood what does it matter? My point being what do philosophical questions like this matter when there are actual things that need to be solved? How does solving this contribute to humanity in any way? And if it does not contribute how do you justify time spent on it?

Entertainment?

Quote from: "elliebean"Entertainment?

Ok. Long as there is some reason.

Quote from: "dogsmycopilot"

Quote from: "Faradaympp"We've probalby all heard this question at one point or another, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound? I originaly intended to post this in the science section, the reason? I recently tried to disprove this statement from a physics standpoint, however with a limited understanding my arguments had some flaws. So I want to know what you think, does a tree make a sound? How did you conclude this? Any other details would be helpful.

But if you need firewood what does it matter? My point being what do philosophical questions like this matter when there are actual things that need to be solved? How does solving this contribute to humanity in any way? And if it does not contribute how do you justify time spent on it?

I'm pretty sure the tree in the woods question is a koan.  The description of a koan listed on Wikipedia is pretty spot on - A kōan (pronounced /ˈkoÊŠ.É'ːn/; Chinese: å...¬æ¡ˆ; pinyin: gōng-àn; Korean: gong'an; Vietnamese: công án) is a fundamental part of the history and lore of Zen Buddhism. It consists of a story, dialogue, question, or statement; the meaning of which cannot be understood by rational  thinking, yet it may be accessible by intuition. One widely known kōan is "Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?" (oral tradition attributed to Hakuin Ekaku, 1686-1769, considered a reviver of the kōan tradition in Japan).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan

When I was studying Zen Buddhism I found koans profoundly helpful.  There are tons of stories about monks who, when pondering a koan, suddenly found enlightenment.  I never personally experienced enlightenment from considering a koan, but I have used them as a kind of meditation tool to get my head straight when I'm feeling particularly confused or grumpy.  Kind of like a re-set exercise for my brain when I find myself mistaking my perceptions for reality.  The funny thing about a koan is that they are useless, they're supposed to be useless.  So when you say 'what does it matter?' a Zen Buddhist would probably happily respond 'it totally doesn't'.

[quote="Tanker]
How about a star 100 light years away went supernova 50 years ago. Is it still a star or a rapidly expanding ball of gas. Answer: expanding ball of gas we just don't know it yet. Just because we don't witness an event (tree falling) or it's effect (sound) does not mean the event or effects never happened.[/quote]

Hey that's actually a pretty good example, I hadn't thought of that.

Quote from: "Faradaympp"[

Thanks. Going over all your old threads?