Happy Atheist Forum

Well about 2months ago i told my mom that i am not a christian. She thinks i am atheist, i wont tell her that im actually tryign to get into Wicca untill she stop punishes me for this. how do i get my family to accept that im not a christian, they all think this is a phase and that i need some help to understand god. They take both physical objcts and oportunities away from me if i refuse to go to church with them. I figured you guys would know about dealing wiht these kinds of people, srry if you find this offensive.

Quote from: "future_wiccan"Well about 2months ago i told my mom that i am not a christian. She thinks i am atheist, i wont tell her that im actually tryign to get into Wicca untill she stop punishes me for this. how do i get my family to accept that im not a christian, they all think this is a phase and that i need some help to understand god. They take both physical objcts and oportunities away from me if i refuse to go to church with them. I figured you guys would know about dealing wiht these kinds of people, srry if you find this offensive.

Well, I assume you're asking for advice from Atheists, so I'll keep this brief.

God gave us Free will. And if God gave you Free will, who is she to take it away?

I used to be an Atheist. My Mum kept on bugging me to go to Mass - it just turned me further and further away from Christianity. Then, she stopped and just left me to it. Now, 3 years later, I'm a pretty devout Catholic.

Naturally, it's different for everyone, but your Mum, as your parent has a right and a duty to guide you in what she thinks is best for her. So I will not fault her there. But at the end of the day, it's your choice.


JD

This is not offensive at all. I'm sure a lot of us have had to deal with the bigoted religious people out there.

What I would suggest doing is telling on your parents to your old pastor. There's nothing like evangelical politics to shut up religious bigots. If you can convince your old pastor that your parents are punishing you because you are having a crisis of faith (be careful to word it that way, otherwise there is a small chance he could turn on you, too), and that you feel that their decision to punish you for reflecting on god would only serve to push you away from God, he is likely to speak very seriously to your parents about the nature of Christianity and maybe even freedom of or from religion.

I have several friends who practice wicca, and they are some of the nicest people I know.

As a pastor's son who is also an outspoken atheist, I am something of an expert in the area.

Quote from: "Willravel"Basically manipulate your pastor onto your side against your parents

Manipulation will probably be bad for you in the long run, getting in "outside" forces is bound to escalate the situation, and I'm sure we'd all rather avoid that.

I'd suggest alternate methods first. A well-structured arguement might even do the trick.


JD

you just twisted his words john, i was thinking about that today when i was there. mayeb i should offer to go to the youthgroup (on tuesday) so i can talk to Nathan, or Byran. they are both pretty cool guys, they wouldnt go off on me for not being a christian with the youthgroup being an outreach program.

future_wiccan's parents have decided that they should, instead of allowing and promoting growth and understanding, punish future_wiccan for wishing to explore all the world has to offer. Is it fear? Anger? Bigotry? Probably. When in a situation where your adversary (in this instance alone they are adversaries, not overall, mind you) is acting based on emotion and irrationality, it is not unreasonable to believe that a logical argument will still fail. I hope that they would listen to a reasonable argument, but based on not only my experience but also the behavioral patterns outlined in the OP, it is not likely.

Either one must accept the unjust punishment, or one must adapt a better strategy. I suppose you could say I'm telling you to evolve...somewhat appropriate for an atheist forum I'd say.

Quote from: "future_wiccan"you just twisted his words john, i was thinking about that today when i was there.

I didn't - that's exactly what he just suggested, regardless of whether you thought of it or not.

A pastor is there to help. If you want him to help, tell him everything. Don't just manipulate him into doing what you want him to do.

Sure, it's a back up strategy. But I'd try other ones first.


JD

its not manipulation, they are there to help and this is a problem.

Quote from: "Www.Dictionary.com"Shrewd or devious management for one's own advantage

This is exactly what the suggestion was.


JD,
anyway, let's not get overly pedantic about this. Let's concentrate on finding a way to get you out of this.

Quote from: "Johndigger"I didn't - that's exactly what he just suggested, regardless of whether you thought of it or not.

The glass is half empty.
The glass is half full.

Both of these statements may very well be correct, but the difference lies in the nature of the opinion of that which is perceived. In the case of the glass, it is a study in optimism vs. pessimism. Your description of my post was correct, but was pessimistic. I hope this has cleared everything up.

Quote from: "Johndigger"A pastor is there to help. If you want him to help, tell him everything. Don't just manipulate him into doing what you want him to do.

This pastor was responsible for teaching the tolerance that would have prevented this. He was clearly lax in his responsibility. He has proven that he either cannot or will not give people the tools of religious understanding and tolerance. As such, it is reasonable to assume that he may be as receptive as future_wiccan's parents. Taking this into account, the best strategy would be to use the pastor as a tool instead of seeking help overtly.

Quote from: "Willravel"This pastor was responsible for teaching the tolerance that would have prevented this

And where in his job description can you show that this is one of his objectives?

It might be. It might not be. You don't know. You can only assume this was one of his roles. And if it is one of his roles and he is failing in it. Then he's probably not going to be the best person to talk to, anyway.


JD

Quote from: "Johndigger"And where in his job description can you show that this is one of his objectives?

It's probably written in the same place that says

Quote from: "Johndigger"A pastor is there to help.

It's in the Bible.
Luke 9:49-50 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."
John 4:7-27: "There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink...Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water...Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father...And upon this came his disciples, and marveled that he talked with the woman..."

lets just get back on the subject.(i just noticed that i said evangastic,lol)

Yes, the bible also says:

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God  (Leviticus 21:17)


So, by your logic - because it's in the bible - this is the Pastors job too. Wiccan, be sure to mention this to your pastor, next time you see him.

JD

Surely. I think you should make a list in your head of all the things you can do, including enduring the intolerance. Weigh the possible benefits and possible costs of each road, and try to pick the most likely to end up right. It's your freedom to decide what's right, and that's the bottom line.

I apologize for the threadjack.

Yeah right, Christians dont have a correct view on Wiccans. Im pretty sure they think Wicca is a thing of Satan.(Thats what i was taught.)

Apology accepted. (srry bout the double post)

I agree, with Will.

JD

alright here is from the top of my head
1.go to the church till I move out
2.tell a pastor
3.talk to my parents by myself
...doesnt look like i have much options

Well, remember those 3 sections and be split up and delivered in many different ways, so you do have quite a lot of choice, really.

Also, on somewhat of a sidenote, are you getting into Wicca because you believe it, or is it more of a rebellion thing?


JD

I believe it, if it was rebellion than i would have been rubbign it in their faces.

What makes you believe it? Have you had experiences or such? (Not attacking, just simply interested)

JD

Yes I have, but I didnt come here to discuss that.

Hi future_wiccan, ouch, this sounds tricky.  Well, for my own part, I have to admit that there were numerous things I did or thought that I didn't share with my parents, and I strongly suspect the same will be true of my own children.  I hope nobody thinks I'm a total wuss for suggesting this, but why not ride it out, go to church, and just "keep faith" (haha, coming from an atheist!) with your own beliefs in your own mind?  There will be plenty of time to move more formally away from the fold when you are older.  At 14 you are still going to be involved heavily with your family, right?  And besides, nobody can really make you change a thought that exists inside of your own mind, nor can they really tell what thoughts are inside your own mind.

I have a small experience related to this -- I was a boy scout growing up, and attained the rank of eagle.  Our troop was (luckily) very secular, and I was only asked about my religious beliefs once.  I responded that I received my religious instruction at home (which isn't really a total lie, and nobody point blank asked me if I believed in any gods).  Fact is, I loved scouting, I loved the camping and high adventure, and I wasn't going to sacrifice it just because some bigot would throw me out for what I thought was a ridiculous reason.  Maybe this is less than noble, but hey, now I'm 35, I don't owe anything to anyone, and I can be very outspoken.  I could just never be a boy scout leader, and now I get to say "their loss" instead of "my loss".

Sincerely,
Steve

Says the dude with a beer avatar, youd be an awesome scout leader! nah im kidding teh avy doesnt mean anything, but thanks for sharing that with us.

Interestingly. If you believe in Wicca, why not Christianity? If you believe in "supernatural powers" "out there."

Apologies if I'm getting too personal, but I came on this forum to find out about people's beliefs and their reasons. So here I am.

JD

Disregard what any pastor, or your parents might have to say about your new beliefs.   The pastor might be there to "help", but your beliefs are now "wrong" to him as well as your parents.  "Helping" would involve bringing you back into the flock.

If your parents don't eventually accept your new beliefs(whatever they may be), and pardon my language on this one, "Fuck 'em."  If they are so blinded by faith that they would alienate their own child then they are not worthy of your time, or anyone's for that matter.  

This is your life, with "your" being the key word.  You must live it in a way that will make you happy, not to make someone else happy.  Good luck.

Quote from: "donkeyhoty"If your parents don't eventually accept your new beliefs(whatever they may be), and pardon my language on this one, "Fuck 'em."

Now, there's some bad advice if ever there was any. Sure, they should accept their beliefs, you're their son. However, if they don't, that is no reason to completely "Fuck 'em" as donkey not-so-eloquently puts it.


Beliefs aside - parents can be the best people to turn to at many times in your life. They can support you in many many ways.


JD

not when every suggestion they make is based on a religion i dont believe in.
"If you believe in Wicca, why not Christianity? If you believe in "supernatural powers" "out there." " Wicca is a religion of the earth. Have you ever looked at spells? its not really personal powers, im not gonna start fires with my mind.

They're your parents, man. It'll be sad if this breaks you guys up.


JD

Quote from: "Johndigger"

Quote from: "donkeyhoty"If your parents don't eventually accept your new beliefs(whatever they may be), and pardon my language on this one, "Fuck 'em."

Now, there's some bad advice if ever there was any. Sure, they should accept their beliefs, you're their son. However, if they don't, that is no reason to completely "Fuck 'em" as donkey not-so-eloquently puts it.


Beliefs aside - parents can be the best people to turn to at many times in your life. They can support you in many many ways.


JD

Please stop shooting down everyone's advice. Bad parents exist. Both of my parents were bad parents. It's something some people have to deal with. I was around 14 when I realized my parents didn't always have my best interest in mind, and it helped me mature into an adult. Wicca's parents might be making one mistake they'll regret later of they may be bad parents. It's up to wicca to make the determination and grow and become his or her own person.

well said, yesterday my friend said "I may live under your roof, but this is MY life" he said that when i told him about all this, this is why i try to accept people no matter what their inetrests are. i cant expect anyoen to live their own lives like i do mine.

Quote from: "Willravel"Please stop shooting down everyone's advice. Bad parents exist. Both of my parents were bad parents. It's something some people have to deal with. I was around 14 when I realized my parents didn't always have my best interest in mind, and it helped me mature into an adult. Wicca's parents might be making one mistake they'll regret later of they may be bad parents. It's up to wicca to make the determination and grow and become his or her own person.

If I disagree with someone's advice - then I will shoot it down and I will give reasons for the shooting.

Of course, he should become his own person, but he came here for advice, and that's exactly what we are trying to give him. Just because parents don't hold the same views as him and they don't accept his views isn't a good reason to go to extremes.


Everyone is going to have different views to their parents - particularly teenagers - it's life. But that sole reason is no reason to break up a family.

Families are amoung the best things you can have. If not the best.


JD

That is your opinion and its best kept to yourself.

You asked for advice. Why complain just because it doesn't suit you exactly? If my advice sounds wrong to you, then please explain to me why so.

I am trying to help you.


JD,
shrugging

You gave yours, then you gave meaningless criticism.(Over and over.)

Well, if "meaningless" criticism is telling you to stick with your family because they are potentially some of the best people you'll ever have around you.

Then I certainly do not apologise for that.

JD

No that is an opinion and advice... it doesnt need to be said over and over. i dont wanna soudn rude or descriminaative but you are acting in teh very way I view christians, stubborn, and annoying. atleast...that is MY opinion. Dont you know any gays that you can go and preach to? am I a bad person that you shouldnt talk to because you believe there is a god behind you? because if there is I cant see him.
That is my opinion, do you agree? didnt think so, and im not gonna say it again when you question it, adn i suggest you dont either.(That is my advice.)

That was rather rude to someone who was trying to help you.

I dont think its right that your beliefs are limiting the rigths of people who dont share your beliefs. I think its rude that you were asked to stop shootign down comments adn you continued. I think its rude that you are gonna/did bring your kids to church when thye are too young to think for themselves and put beliefs into their sub conscience before hand, and when they get old enough to think for themselves that will confuse them and youll wake up adn go to teh bathroom only to find them and a bottle of pills on the floor because there subconcience said they werent good enough.
I cant agree with you so quit wasting your time.

Quote from: "future_wiccan"Well about 2months ago i told my mom that i am not a christian. She thinks i am atheist, i wont tell her that im actually tryign to get into Wicca untill she stop punishes me for this. how do i get my family to accept that im not a christian, they all think this is a phase and that i need some help to understand god. They take both physical objcts and oportunities away from me if i refuse to go to church with them. I figured you guys would know about dealing wiht these kinds of people, srry if you find this offensive.

Hi FW,

Why don't you just tell your parents you feel spiritually drawn to Wicca?  They'll take that a lot better than thinking you are an athiest and may be more willing to compromise on the church thing.  Before you talk about it with them study up on Wicca, if you haven't already.  You need to be prepared to answer any question they may have about why you want to pursue Wicca instead of Christianity.  They may have preconcieved notions that wicca is Satanic and only about orgies...so be prepared for that comming up so you can respond to their claims calmly and rationally.  The best way to let them realize that you are being serious is to be mature about the situation.

Not that you'll like this idea, but would it hurt you to go to church with them?  I'm pretty sure wiccans don't meet on sundays so there shouldn't be a conflict and if you agree to go it will make your parents happy.  I only suggest this because you are still living under their roof and should therefore at least pretend to show some respect for their rules.  It makes things easier on everyone.  Remember, they think that if you leave Jesus you're on your way to eternal hellfire their reaction is probably due to fear for your own well being.  I'm sure everything they have done is with the best of intentions...they just don't know how to handle their baby (no matter how old you get they'll view you as a baby) choosing a path they don't understand/think is false.

I will note that because of your age, even though I am sure you are serious about Wicca since you went to the effort of asking for assistance, you are likely to change your spiritual views possibly quite drastically over the next 5-10 years.  When I was your age I was very into the whole jesus preach at everyone thing...became a deist...considered pluralism...reconsidered christianity...considered satanism (not devil worship) for about two seconds...back to deist..then agnostic...and now I'm an atheist.  This is just something to keep in mind when your parents claim it is a phase...they may be right even though you are serious.  It may even help that you acknowledge why they think it is a phase but explain your sincerity and ask that they support you while you explore this path.

I hope that helps.

Quote from: "Johndigger"Now, there's some bad advice if ever there was any. Sure, they should accept their beliefs, you're their son. However, if they don't, that is no reason to completely "Fuck 'em" as donkey not-so-eloquently puts it.


Beliefs aside - parents can be the best people to turn to at many times in your life. They can support you in many many ways.


JD

I'm with JD on this, family is the people who will be there when you need them the most and no one else is around; it would be terrible to destroy a relationship with your parents over disagreeing on religion.

Im just askign for freedom to practice my religion without disturbance. It is what I believe and Im not waiting till im 18 to have the rigth to practice my own religion.
Im thinking of talking to the school counselor.
Im also scared of Joel(one of my brothers) finding out aout this, anythign that isnt his "style" is just plain wrong to him, he would hit me more. actually, only 3(parents and twin) members of my direct family thinks im an atheist, and 7 members(rest of the siblings) dont kno wbecause im afraid of how they will treat me, most of them are the only people who treat em the way i want to be treated and i dont want them to treat me diferently. srry about the typo's its 302, i cant stop thinking about this.

Earghulflkjd!!   This is what creeps me out so badly about religious intolerance.  I can't imagine actually hitting anyone because they aren't an atheist.  I could imagine hitting someone because they are an a$$hole (like Ted Haggard, oops, wait, he self destructed so I guess there's no need).  Another guy posted in the intros once that his mother gave him a lecture about being an atheist, but it seemed she was primarily concerned that his views were going to cause him difficulty with jobs and society in his life, so she was mostly concerned about his welfare.  This I can take a lot better than a more "fundamental" objection.  Unfortunately, it sounds like your family is leaning more toward the latter.

About my own family;  I believe my now overt atheism bugs my mother, probably because she's not very young anymore, and occasionally I "let one fly" about how little I believe in the afterlife.  I believe this disturbs her, so I try to lay off it when we're together.  But, we get along great, I think my family is in about as healthy a shape as it is for families to be in.

Having said that, I can assure you that if they began to literally hit me, or seriously ostracize me because of my belief, then I'm with donkeyhoty I'll say "F' 'em" and move on.  It would cause me pain, but oh well.  However, I'm a self sufficient adult, so this is a whole lot easier for me to do than for you to do, which is why I suggested sticking it out with them, at least until you're out of the house.  If you can't wait, that is certainly your choice (and a brave one at that).  Personally, I would still recommend a lighter course (my advice is free, so what's it really worth? hahaha).

On a lighter note,

Quote from: "future_wiccan"Says the dude with a beer avatar, youd be an awesome scout leader! nah im kidding teh avy doesnt mean anything, but thanks for sharing that with us.

Yeah, right?  I'd get busted teaching the kids to homebrew.  Imagine the camp counselor discovering our fire boiling 6 gallons of malt while we make hop additions, Hahaha!  (Brewing is very natural and scientific, you measure specific gravities, monitor temperature to activate enzymes at the right times, plus the final outcome is very enjoyable compared to the outcome of most science experiments.  Oops, wait, you're 14 --- forget I said anything.  Beer is terrible.)

Lol.

Quote from: "Johndigger"your parent has a right and a duty to guide you in what she thinks is best for her. So I will not fault her there. But at the end of the day, it's your choice.

I think this is the crux of the matter.  As a minor, you are under your parent's authority and you are their responsibility.  I know nothing in the world is more enraging for an adolescent.  I think the true mark of maturity on your part would be to submit to that authority until you are legally free of it.  Unless you are being abused in some way.  Which it doesn't sound like.  After all, what are your parents asking you to do?  Go to church?  So what?  Go to church.  They obviously can't force you to believe something you don't.  You can be honest and say you don't believe it, but you accept their authority and will do what they ask.  Is that so hard?

The advice would be the same if you were converting to Christianity and your parents were Wiccan.  The mature thing to do would be to politly disagree, (or just be quite about it.) and do their... whatever it is Wiccans do.  

Whatever your parents are doing, it is probably based on love and concern for you.  They may be wrong, but you can't fault their motives.

Of course, your parents may be horrible, horrible people, but I'll bet you that if they are one of those 9 out of 10 parents out there who actually love their kids, they would respond well to you if you said the following rather than pulling the typical teenage bullshit attitude of superiority.  

"Mom and Dad.  I know you love me and are concerned about my soul.  I recognize that raising a child must be difficult and frightening.  I don't want to scare you, or upset you.  But I'm considering other religions that I know you disapprove of.  However, I'm willing to submit to your authority and listen to whatever information you might have concerning this topic because I respect the fact that you care for me and are doing your best to raise me.  I will go to church with you.  I will keep an open mind to everything."

Now honestly, what parent would react badly to that?  If for no other reason than pure pragmatism, you can do it this way to avoid lots of pain and frustration on both your parts.


EDIT:  Oops.  I didn't see the last 2 pages.  So with the information about your brother physically abusing you, I would just add that to the list of things you are telling your parents.  That sort of thing should never be tolerated.  And if your parents do tolerate it, then they are truly worthy of your emotional uncoupling.  (Though I always encourage never burning bridges if you don't absolutely have to.)  Otherwise, my surly-ignored advice stays the same.

They know about joel, they yell at him when it happens but that is it. my mom figured out and says satan influenced me away from god adn into a dangerous lifestyle. these are her words "It even says in teh bible that demons will do whatever they have to to take you from god adn this is proof that God IS real" im so sick of her actign liek im gonna believe somethign from the bible just liek that. she WANTS me to be a christian and its not happening, it frustrates her bcause she wants me to stay away from ths stuff adn im staying at its side. she is gonna move the PC downstairs in the family room adn we cant go on unless she is here to watch everything we do. Im not allowed to talk abotu Wicca, Im not allowed to read about Wicca, adn most of all Im not allowed to be part of Wicca. she says im lyign to myself when i say its adn earthbased religions because thats what teh demons want to happen. srry for all the typos. I used tohave that in mind scrybe but she shoot me down in teh middle of a sentance and told em that she is NOT giving upa dn that i MUSt be a christian.
This wil probably be my last post. cause the comp will probably be goign down stairs tonight.
My decision is final, Im gettign teh hell out of this state as soon as i can, I am not gonna ignore my religion for 4 years because she says it is wrong. I cant get this off of my mind and it is seriously affecting my grades, i havent done anythign in atleast a month, I just sit around and think about this. When i say i have things on my mind she says "wel...get them off of your mind because at this age nothign shoudl eb more imortant than school"