I've come across this article today: http://hottopicsonline.info/science/is- ... eal-or-not (http://hottopicsonline.info/science/is-spirituality-real-or-not)
I think it goes along with many other studies that have, for example, shown which areas in the brain are active while praying (apparently the same one as after one consumed drugs).
In addition, I have started reading "The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes. I'm not sure whether I agree with his basic argument (consciousness has just evolved about 3,000 years ago), but he certainly provides a lot of food for thought with respect to where religion comes from.
Anyway, my question is: What do you think of this?
And if any of you have read Jaynes, what do you think of his thesis?
I've been thinking about religion in the brain for quite a while. BBC Horizon did a wonderful show about it back in 2003 called 'God on the Brain' and it'd be worth watching if you're into all this god-brain stuff. http://www.tv-links.cc/documentary/horizon-god-on-the-brain.htm
This post sort of relates to a post I made a few weeks ago about ADHD and religion. I'd love to have a scan done on my brain. I have Temporal Lobe ADHD and have been an atheist all my life. I've been wondering if there is a relationship between my ADHD and my atheism for a while now. It's been a theory for a while that epilepsy can cause heightened spiritual awareness, and in the program they even found a guy who is a life long atheist who had a religious type experience during a seizure. If scientists are doing all these experiments trying to locate the cerebral response that relates to religion and actually finding scientific data that makes sense I think it's worth doing a study that goes in the opposite direction. I hope they get around to it someday.
I personally think that as more research is done we'll have a better understanding about how religion works in the brain, and maybe it'll open some eyes, heighten some consciousnesses. The more we understand about how the brain works the more we can combat this genetic tendency towards religion, and thus end wars, hate crimes, bigotry, and even maybe help save the environment, and put humanity on a path of social acceptance and education.
Quote from: "Kidnapkid"I've been thinking about religion in the brain for quite a while. BBC Horizon did a wonderful show about it back in 2003 called 'God on the Brain' and it'd be worth watching if you're into all this god-brain stuff. http://www.tv-links.cc/documentary/horizon-god-on-the-brain.htm
This post sort of relates to a post I made a few weeks ago about ADHD and religion. I'd love to have a scan done on my brain. I have Temporal Lobe ADHD and have been an atheist all my life. I've been wondering if there is a relationship between my ADHD and my atheism for a while now. It's been a theory for a while that epilepsy can cause heightened spiritual awareness, and in the program they even found a guy who is a life long atheist who had a religious type experience during a seizure. If scientists are doing all these experiments trying to locate the cerebral response that relates to religion and actually finding scientific data that makes sense I think it's worth doing a study that goes in the opposite direction. I hope they get around to it someday.
I personally think that as more research is done we'll have a better understanding about how religion works in the brain, and maybe it'll open some eyes, heighten some consciousnesses. The more we understand about how the brain works the more we can combat this genetic tendency towards religion, and thus end wars, hate crimes, bigotry, and even maybe help save the environment, and put humanity on a path of social acceptance and education.
Hmm, interesting hypothysis. I too have ADD which was pretty severe in my youth and while still bad I have developed some coping methods. I have been a prety skeptical sort for as long as I can remember. I remember not thinking Santa was real when I was 4 or 5. It just seemed silly to me...at 5. I was probably better decsribed as an agnostic till I was 13 simply because I lacked enough information to really know what I believed. I've been an Atheist since.
Who knows mabye there is a link.
QuoteI remember not thinking Santa was real when I was 4 or 5. It just seemed silly to me...at 5.
I was so terrified of Santa that my mom told me he wasn't real when I was 3 or 4 (kinda hard to remember) just to stop me from crying. See we didn't have a fire place, yet somehow he could still come into my house, could see me when I'm sleeping. Knew if I was bad or good.... SCARY!
I do wish there were some more objective studies being done between religious and non religious behavior. It would be interesting just to see the amount of people on this forum diagnosed with Add/ADHD as opposed those not.
Maybe, just maybe, superstition is what's wired in our brains. Step on a crack, black cat crosses your path, Friday the 13th, knock on wood, throwing salt over the shoulder, witches, vampires, werewolves, an invisible intelligence up in the sky, and so on. To me it's all cut from the same cloth.
Quote from: "i_am_i"Maybe, just maybe, superstition is what's wired in our brains. Step on a crack, black cat crosses your path, Friday the 13th, knock on wood, throwing salt over the shoulder, witches, vampires, werewolves, an invisible intelligence up in the sky, and so on. To me it's all cut from the same cloth.
I agree, but I also believe that if a person was never exposed to religion, they wouldn't think of god or any other magic pixie in the sky. I mean, a thousand years ago it was different. Nobody knew how the world worked, so they accepted the teachings of god as fact.
If a person was raised on science from the beginning, would they even think of religion? I can't see it happening.
Quote from: "Fallen Jedii"Quote from: "i_am_i"Maybe, just maybe, superstition is what's wired in our brains. Step on a crack, black cat crosses your path, Friday the 13th, knock on wood, throwing salt over the shoulder, witches, vampires, werewolves, an invisible intelligence up in the sky, and so on. To me it's all cut from the same cloth.
I agree, but I also believe that if a person was never exposed to religion, they wouldn't think of god or any other magic pixie in the sky. I mean, a thousand years ago it was different. Nobody knew how the world worked, so they accepted the teachings of god as fact.
If a person was raised on science from the beginning, would they even think of religion? I can't see it happening.
I would tend to agree, I guess. But it's impossible for anyone to grow up in this country without being exposed to religion in some way, shape or form.
Quote from: "i_am_i"Quote from: "Fallen Jedii"Quote from: "i_am_i"Maybe, just maybe, superstition is what's wired in our brains. Step on a crack, black cat crosses your path, Friday the 13th, knock on wood, throwing salt over the shoulder, witches, vampires, werewolves, an invisible intelligence up in the sky, and so on. To me it's all cut from the same cloth.
I agree, but I also believe that if a person was never exposed to religion, they wouldn't think of god or any other magic pixie in the sky. I mean, a thousand years ago it was different. Nobody knew how the world worked, so they accepted the teachings of god as fact.
If a person was raised on science from the beginning, would they even think of religion? I can't see it happening.
I would tend to agree, I guess. But it's impossible for anyone to grow up in this country without being exposed to religion in some way, shape or form.
And that's the only problem with my theory. It's always going to be around and you're always going to run into it.
I grew up in East Germany. Religion never played much of a role in my life and, for the most part, was even viewed rather suspiciously by officials.
Then, am I an atheist because of the lack of religious education in my childhood?
I would like to think that that is not the main reason, but that there is more credibility to an atheist, secular, naturalist worldview.
Yep, a big part of it is how you are raised, but that can change. I was raised a fundie but attracted to science at a young age. My mind was split for so long. Thankfully I was allowed to pursue science and I learned lots more going into zoology and decided against religion.
But I have met people also in my old campus christian group that went the opposite direction. One guy I know was raised a non-believer and his mother was even concerned he eventually turned to fundamentalism, he was attracted to science too and in our huge campus group, we were the only two natural science majors. He eventually said he got a calling from God to ditch science, and instead became a youth pastor.
Since I am not him, I don't know what went through his mind. I think some people just fall for a false sense of answers or something... everyone is different.
I was exposed to several religions. The knowledge that there were so many different ways of mystical thinking out there made me rather sceptical of all of them. I also vaguely remember a book on superstition I read when I was 4 years old.
Quote from: "Kidnapkid"QuoteI remember not thinking Santa was real when I was 4 or 5. It just seemed silly to me...at 5.
I was so terrified of Santa that my mom told me he wasn't real when I was 3 or 4 (kinda hard to remember) just to stop me from crying. See we didn't have a fire place, yet somehow he could still come into my house, could see me when I'm sleeping. Knew if I was bad or good.... SCARY!
I, too, was afraid of Santa, until I figured out it was just my parents. After that, I calmed down a lot, stopped blocking the fireplace with random junk, and let my parents have their fun.
Quote from: "Fallen Jedii"I agree, but I also believe that if a person was never exposed to religion, they wouldn't think of god or any other magic pixie in the sky. I mean, a thousand years ago it was different. Nobody knew how the world worked, so they accepted the teachings of god as fact.
If a person was raised on science from the beginning, would they even think of religion? I can't see it happening.
They might not think of god as such, or magic pixies, but in order to explain some exotic experience that seems very significant to them but outside the bounds of the mundane they might concoct another exotic explanation - like a "best fit" sort of thing.
Demons in the underworld, angels in the heavenly realms, fairies in their magical lands, etc. have all been used in the past as stories in our culture to contain our experiences that are out of the ordinary. Nowadays its alien beings in parallel dimensions or whatnot.
After reading Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer, Zen And The Brain by James H. Austin and Why God Won't Go Away by Andrew Newberg, Eugene G. D'Aquili, and Vince Rause
Ballantine I'm fairly sure that some people who are highly educated in scientific theory will have experiences and develop beliefs that would seem religious in nature just because of the way our brain is wired.
The difference might be that the experiences & beliefs would not be interpreted in a way that contradicted scientific understanding of the world. People from various cultures can have very similar religious experiences but their explanations for them and how they & others respond to them depends much on the culture.
Quote from: "i_am_i"I would tend to agree, I guess. But it's impossible for anyone to grow up in this country without being exposed to religion in some way, shape or form.
You guys should check out The God Gene by Dean Hamer as well as Knowledge of Angels by Jill Paton Walsh. The latter is a brilliant work of fiction and I
beg everyone to check it out. It considers the possibility of knowledge of God being innate in a feral child. Incredible work with great philosophical dialogue in it between an atheist and a Christian.
Personally I think that if a child was raised on science from the get go there would be no room for religion in their lives. Religion is outdated and medieval, and the need to believe in a deity in this day and age is completely obsolete.
I think its BS. We have a brain that's made to see patterns. It can also be irrational and illogical, connecting ideas based on faulty logic. This can lead an out of body feeling or a deep meditative feeling to mean something religious if that's what the person believes or is exposed to. Drugs can do the same thing.
Plus the article mentions that when the brain is damaged, increased in spirituality occurs. That only reinforces the notion that its not something that's meant to be there...or that religious people are brain damaged.
Quote from: "buttercupbaby"I think its BS. We have a brain that's made to see patterns. It can also be irrational and illogical, connecting ideas based on faulty logic. This can lead an out of body feeling or a deep meditative feeling to mean something religious if that's what the person believes or is exposed to. Drugs can do the same thing.
Plus the article mentions that when the brain is damaged, increased in spirituality occurs. That only reinforces the notion that its not something that's meant to be there...or that religious people are brain damaged.
buttercupbaby one form the irrational & illogical take is prejudice. To me that's what your post was really about.
This question has cropped up a lot. Somebody mentioned superstition, if you look up Skinner Pigeons you'll find an interesting experiment in behavioural reinforcement. There are many examples of conditioned response behaviour, for example Pavlovs Dogs (bell = food = salivation eventually bell = salivation). Skinner use Pigeons and did a test he provided food for regular behaviour peck = grain, the control was peck = no grain, but the interesting one was peck = occasional grain. This third reinforcement proved the strongest in terms of leading to obsessive repetitive behaviour. He observed that the pigeons pecked at the food dispenser many times more in the third case (peck = occasional grain) than in the first case (peck = grain). In addition the pigeons in case three developed elaborate behaviours. If they got a grain by turning around and pecking they continued the behaviour and low and behold in due course they got another grain! So they continued to turn around before pecking and in due course this behaviour was reinforced. Does this remind anybody of the activity on preying? Sometimes you do get what you prey for so it must be working! Hence Skinner's superstitious pigeons.
Personally I have another view to add to this. Humans have developed their behaviours in part due to the survival advantages of being able to predict effect from cause. Snake = pain therefore Snake = run for it! Part of our nature is deeply affected by relating cause to effect and I would contend that where we see effect we attempt to ascribe cause. As we see cause => effect so often when we see effect = ? I.E. no cause we don't like it at a very deep level. So where does that leave us? Imagine some of our distant ancestors sitting watching the Sun go down. They would know from experience that the Sun will come back in due course. So they have knowledge but not understanding. They know the Sun will come back (the effect) but the don't understand why (the cause). Personally I think that the condition of not understanding 'why' would have caused our ancestors considerable psychological distress. Long story short I think they got over that distress by adding God into the equation to balance it. We see this behaviour in animist beliefs in isolated groups of humans that have not been exposed to missionaries of some 'better idea'.
Once you have God in the equation you have somebody who will exploit 'God' to their own advantage to achieve status within their group (I AM THE ALPHA MALE!). They will promote their concept of 'God' within their group and thus through their generations. Once one starts incorporating intent into the God figure you're on the slippery slope to religion and dogma and we all know where that goes.
Could be crap but it holds some sense for me.
Quote from: "Tank"Imagine some of our distant ancestors sitting watching the Sun go down. They would know from experience that the Sun will come back in due course. So they have knowledge but not understanding. They know the Sun will come back (the effect) but the don't understand why (the cause). Personally I think that the condition of not understanding 'why' would have caused our ancestors considerable psychological distress. Long story short I think they got over that distress by adding God into the equation to balance it. We see this behaviour in animist beliefs in isolated groups of humans that have not been exposed to missionaries of some 'better idea'.
Once you have God in the equation you have somebody who will exploit 'God' to their own advantage to achieve status within their group (I AM THE ALPHA MALE!). They will promote their concept of 'God' within their group and thus through their generations. Once one starts incorporating intent into the God figure you're on the slippery slope to religion and dogma and we all know where that goes.
Well put. God in all of its varations is a human invention, I couldn't agree more. But with all that we now know about life and the universe, with all the "better ideas" we've been exposed to, how can we explain why reasonably educated modern humans still require a supernatural being in their lives?
Quote from: "i_am_i"Quote from: "Tank"Imagine some of our distant ancestors sitting watching the Sun go down. They would know from experience that the Sun will come back in due course. So they have knowledge but not understanding. They know the Sun will come back (the effect) but the don't understand why (the cause). Personally I think that the condition of not understanding 'why' would have caused our ancestors considerable psychological distress. Long story short I think they got over that distress by adding God into the equation to balance it. We see this behaviour in animist beliefs in isolated groups of humans that have not been exposed to missionaries of some 'better idea'.
Once you have God in the equation you have somebody who will exploit 'God' to their own advantage to achieve status within their group (I AM THE ALPHA MALE!). They will promote their concept of 'God' within their group and thus through their generations. Once one starts incorporating intent into the God figure you're on the slippery slope to religion and dogma and we all know where that goes.
Well put. God in all of its varations is a human invention, I couldn't agree more. But with all that we now know about life and the universe, how can we explain why reasonably educated modern humans still require a supernatural being in their lives?
I would contend there are huge cultural habits to overcome. Humans have a built in instinct to do what our parents (ultimate authority figures) tell us, without question. Richard Dawkins hypothesised that a child that did not believe their parents immediately and unquestionably would be at significant risk. For example Mum "Don't go near that snake!", Child "It'll be alright!" result first class Natural Selection! So children are truly hardwired to believe their parents, irrespective of their own innate intelligence level. People with a high level of intelligence (IQ 125+) often find their way out from superstition in later life. Now in the past they had to keep their mouth shut, often on pain of significant sanction. Now that is no longer the case, this site is evidence of that and the Internet allows atheists to communicate and support each other in ways previously impossible. One atheist can be shouted down, millions can't and finally the 'King' will be seen to be wearing no clothes!
So an intelligent child brought up in a theistic environment will undoubtedly be infected by the household theistic meme irrespective of their level of intelligence.
Quote from: "Tank"I would contend there are huge cultural habits to overcome. Humans have a built in instinct to do what our parents (ultimate authority figures) tell us, without question. Richard Dawkins hypothesised that a child that did not believe their parents immediately and unquestionably would be at significant risk. For example Mum "Don't go near that snake!", Child "It'll be alright!" result first class Natural Selection! So children are truly hardwired to believe their parents, irrespective of their own innate intelligence level. People with a high level of intelligence (IQ 125+) often find their way out from superstition in later life. Now in the past they had to keep their mouth shut, often on pain of significant sanction. Now that is no longer the case, this site is evidence of that and the Internet allows atheists to communicate and support each other in ways previously impossible. One atheist can be shouted down, millions can't and finally the 'King' will be seen to be wearing no clothes!
So an intelligent child brought up in a theistic environment will undoubtedly be infected by the household theistic meme irrespective of their level of intelligence.
Interesting. The parent/child analogy raises a question. Could it be that some humans are just predisposed, genetically or otherwise, to cling to something that provides a sense of order in their lives? I realize that now I'm getting into the psychological realm, but maybe, just maybe, there is a sort of atavistic psychological reason for some humans embracing religion and others just not needing it, if that makes any sense.
Quote from: "i_am_i"Quote from: "Tank"I would contend there are huge cultural habits to overcome. Humans have a built in instinct to do what our parents (ultimate authority figures) tell us, without question. Richard Dawkins hypothesised that a child that did not believe their parents immediately and unquestionably would be at significant risk. For example Mum "Don't go near that snake!", Child "It'll be alright!" result first class Natural Selection! So children are truly hardwired to believe their parents, irrespective of their own innate intelligence level. People with a high level of intelligence (IQ 125+) often find their way out from superstition in later life. Now in the past they had to keep their mouth shut, often on pain of significant sanction. Now that is no longer the case, this site is evidence of that and the Internet allows atheists to communicate and support each other in ways previously impossible. One atheist can be shouted down, millions can't and finally the 'King' will be seen to be wearing no clothes!
So an intelligent child brought up in a theistic environment will undoubtedly be infected by the household theistic meme irrespective of their level of intelligence.
Interesting. The parent/child analogy raises a question. Could it be that some humans are just predisposed, genetically or otherwise, to cling to something that provides a sense of order in their lives?
Possibly. People tend to continue to do what works (where 'works' is a continuation of expectations). So what you write appears sensible.
Quote from: "i_am_i"I realize that now I'm getting into the psychological realm, but maybe, just maybe, there is a sort of atavistic psychological reason for some humans embracing religion and others just not needing it, if that makes any sense.
Not sure. What I can say is that in the UK mainstream religion is gradually disappearing. Growth areas are Born again Christians and Muslims, but most of Muslims are first generation immigrants whose children are often cultural Muslims by the time they grow up. The exception are the very small minority who feel disaffected by the endemic racism in the UK. Racism is endemic in the UK but it's at a very low level and gradually disappearing, but it is there in the poorer areas and when one gets white thugs beating up Asians the Asians sometimes turn to the support of radical Islam. So I would probably lean towards social pressures and cultural background being the prime drivers to taking on the mantel of a particular belief system. Just my view though.
There was an article in new scientists or somwhere like that recently reporting on a study that demonstrated that individuals have a habit of turning of their skepticism when dealing with trusted authority figures including religious ones. No doubt this is a mechanism to minise group argueing but also serves to give individuals (Most notably of the religious kind) the ability to sway many (Including intellegent people) to their point of view.