Happy Atheist Forum

Weigh in--would the world be a better place, by and large, without the influence of religion?  Why or Why not?

It would be the same place with people having different excuses for being dicks.

no the world would not be any better or any worse.

im assuming that most of us agree that what one believes spiritually has little impact on the question, if they are a good person or not? so.. really, if people suck equally.... they still suck.

barring any what if games, if religion disappeared we would still fight over resources, land, money, history, race, gender, borders, and everything that we fight over now.

maybe gays would be better off without religion. maybe science would have advanced 100% better/faster. and we could cure most diseases and ect... other than that, i dont see the world that much different.

The thing I dislike about religion is that it's a powerful tool of justification.  Without religion, there would be some other powerful tool of justification that bad people would find in order to do bad things.  The real evil of religion, as I see it, is that good people can be, at times, convinced to go along with bad people doing bad things because of the power of religious justification.  I think it's naive to think that without religion, this wouldn't happen.  I just can't imagine how it would manifest.

Quote from: "G-Roll"no the world would not be any better or any worse.

im assuming that most of us agree that what one believes spiritually has little impact on the question, if they are a good person or not? so.. really, if people suck equally.... they still suck.

barring any what if games, if religion disappeared we would still fight over resources, land, money, history, race, gender, borders, and everything that we fight over now.

maybe gays would be better off without religion. maybe science would have advanced 100% better/faster. and we could cure most diseases and ect... other than that, i dont see the world that much different.

QFT.

 

Quote from: "notself"It would be the same place with people having different excuses for being dicks.

So true

this thread made me think of this. .
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... earchterm= (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155423/?searchterm=)

Quote from: "pinkocommie"The thing I dislike about religion is that it's a powerful tool of justification.  Without religion, there would be some other powerful tool of justification that bad people would find in order to do bad things.  The real evil of religion, as I see it, is that good people can be, at times, convinced to go along with bad people doing bad things because of the power of religious justification.  I think it's naive to think that without religion, this wouldn't happen.  I just can't imagine how it would manifest.

Hear hear. I used to be very religious and I have to say, my christian friends were mostly very easy going (and they're still my friends), whereas now I find that the atheists that I've come to know and hang out with can get quite uptight about the most trivial of things, as though they want everything to turn into an argument. It feels like they're desperate to be right all the time and to get a kick out of ridiculing others. Life's too short for all that. It's ironic, when I was a christian I always imagined it to be the other way around, but obviously it's not. I find myself being selective about what I talk about with atheists whereas I could and still can literally talk about anything at all with the christians. You'd be surprised how cool they are about most things, they're just generally easier to have conversations with. Atheists seem to have a chip on their shoulder the whole time, it's really annoying, and although I'm an atheist now it get on my nerves at times. Sometimes I say to them "chill, Winston" (like in lock stock and two smoking barrels) and I can almost see the fire in their eyes. At the end of the day, you live, then you die and you're gone, you might aswell be cool while you're here. And no one likes an uptight party pooper.

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"The thing I dislike about religion is that it's a powerful tool of justification. Without religion, there would be some other powerful tool of justification that bad people would find in order to do bad things. The real evil of religion, as I see it, is that good people can be, at times, convinced to go along with bad people doing bad things because of the power of religious justification. I think it's naive to think that without religion, this wouldn't happen. I just can't imagine how it would manifest.

Hear hear. I used to be very religious and I have to say, my christian friends were mostly very easy going (and they're still my friends), whereas now I find that the atheists that I've come to know and hang out with can get quite uptight about the most trivial of things, as though they want everything to turn into an argument. It feels like they're desperate to be right all the time and to get a kick out of ridiculing others. Life's too short for all that. It's ironic, when I was a christian I always imagined it to be the other way around, but obviously it's not. I find myself being selective about what I talk about with atheists whereas I could and still can literally talk about anything at all with the christians. You'd be surprised how cool they are about most things, they're just generally easier to have conversations with. Atheists seem to have a chip on their shoulder the whole time, it's really annoying, and although I'm an atheist now it get on my nerves at times. Sometimes I say to them "chill, Winston" (like in lock stock and two smoking barrels) and I can almost see the fire in their eyes. At the end of the day, you live, then you die and you're gone, you might aswell be cool while you're here. And no one likes an uptight party pooper.

what?    

When I think about all the things we could have instead of religion, I'll take religion. Look at it this way: at least the Christians don't have an army.

Quote from: "i_am_i"When I think about all the things we could have instead of religion, I'll take religion. Look at it this way: at least the Christians don't have an army.

Good point, but you're forgetting about the formidable salvation army.

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"The thing I dislike about religion is that it's a powerful tool of justification.  Without religion, there would be some other powerful tool of justification that bad people would find in order to do bad things.  The real evil of religion, as I see it, is that good people can be, at times, convinced to go along with bad people doing bad things because of the power of religious justification.  I think it's naive to think that without religion, this wouldn't happen.  I just can't imagine how it would manifest.

Hear hear. I used to be very religious and I have to say, my christian friends were mostly very easy going (and they're still my friends), whereas now I find that the atheists that I've come to know and hang out with can get quite uptight about the most trivial of things, as though they want everything to turn into an argument. It feels like they're desperate to be right all the time and to get a kick out of ridiculing others. Life's too short for all that. It's ironic, when I was a christian I always imagined it to be the other way around, but obviously it's not. I find myself being selective about what I talk about with atheists whereas I could and still can literally talk about anything at all with the christians. You'd be surprised how cool they are about most things, they're just generally easier to have conversations with. Atheists seem to have a chip on their shoulder the whole time, it's really annoying, and although I'm an atheist now it get on my nerves at times. Sometimes I say to them "chill, Winston" (like in lock stock and two smoking barrels) and I can almost see the fire in their eyes. At the end of the day, you live, then you die and you're gone, you might aswell be cool while you're here. And no one likes an uptight party pooper.

I think atheists are tired of being called sub human, immoral, unfit for raising children, evil, sinful, all of it.  I think atheists generally hate how some religious people control their gay friend's lives and try to dictate the lives of other people as if they know what's right for the world.  Not all Christians are like that, obviously, but I understand the knee jerk reaction to be critical of religious people when you're an atheist because for some people, they feel oppressed by religion.  Would you blame a Jewish person for refusing to give a Nazi a fair shake?  That's how some people see it.  And some people are assholes as well as atheists.  And some people are laid back and don't feel that way at all.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"The thing I dislike about religion is that it's a powerful tool of justification.  Without religion, there would be some other powerful tool of justification that bad people would find in order to do bad things.  The real evil of religion, as I see it, is that good people can be, at times, convinced to go along with bad people doing bad things because of the power of religious justification.  I think it's naive to think that without religion, this wouldn't happen.  I just can't imagine how it would manifest.

Hear hear. I used to be very religious and I have to say, my christian friends were mostly very easy going (and they're still my friends), whereas now I find that the atheists that I've come to know and hang out with can get quite uptight about the most trivial of things, as though they want everything to turn into an argument. It feels like they're desperate to be right all the time and to get a kick out of ridiculing others. Life's too short for all that. It's ironic, when I was a christian I always imagined it to be the other way around, but obviously it's not. I find myself being selective about what I talk about with atheists whereas I could and still can literally talk about anything at all with the christians. You'd be surprised how cool they are about most things, they're just generally easier to have conversations with. Atheists seem to have a chip on their shoulder the whole time, it's really annoying, and although I'm an atheist now it get on my nerves at times. Sometimes I say to them "chill, Winston" (like in lock stock and two smoking barrels) and I can almost see the fire in their eyes. At the end of the day, you live, then you die and you're gone, you might aswell be cool while you're here. And no one likes an uptight party pooper.

I think atheists are tired of being called sub human, immoral, unfit for raising children, evil, sinful, all of it.  I think atheists generally hate how some religious people control their gay friend's lives and try to dictate the lives of other people as if they know what's right for the world.  Not all Christians are like that, obviously, but I understand the knee jerk reaction to be critical of religious people when you're an atheist because for some people, they feel oppressed by religion.  Would you blame a Jewish person for refusing to give a Nazi a fair shake?  That's how some people see it.  And some people are assholes as well as atheists.  And some people are laid back and don't feel that way at all.

Yeah I get that but as they say, two wrongs don't make a right. I enjoy the company of my religious friends so much, that I still go to church. Yeah I know, go figure. My point being that there's always a positive way to deal with (and get along with) those who believe differently.

Quote from: "G-Roll"

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"The thing I dislike about religion is that it's a powerful tool of justification. Without religion, there would be some other powerful tool of justification that bad people would find in order to do bad things. The real evil of religion, as I see it, is that good people can be, at times, convinced to go along with bad people doing bad things because of the power of religious justification. I think it's naive to think that without religion, this wouldn't happen. I just can't imagine how it would manifest.

Hear hear. I used to be very religious and I have to say, my christian friends were mostly very easy going (and they're still my friends), whereas now I find that the atheists that I've come to know and hang out with can get quite uptight about the most trivial of things, as though they want everything to turn into an argument. It feels like they're desperate to be right all the time and to get a kick out of ridiculing others. Life's too short for all that. It's ironic, when I was a christian I always imagined it to be the other way around, but obviously it's not. I find myself being selective about what I talk about with atheists whereas I could and still can literally talk about anything at all with the christians. You'd be surprised how cool they are about most things, they're just generally easier to have conversations with. Atheists seem to have a chip on their shoulder the whole time, it's really annoying, and although I'm an atheist now it get on my nerves at times. Sometimes I say to them "chill, Winston" (like in lock stock and two smoking barrels) and I can almost see the fire in their eyes. At the end of the day, you live, then you die and you're gone, you might aswell be cool while you're here. And no one likes an uptight party pooper.

what?    

I didn't mean all atheists.

why are you an atheist?

I guess it's because I'm a realist, I dunno really, I just don't buy the whole "God diddit" theory any more. It's hard to explain the transition, maybe it's just a change of mindset more than anything else. How did you become an atheist? Were you religious at any time?

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"Yeah I get that but as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

Oh if only life were that easy.  

 

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"I enjoy the company of my religious friends so much, that I still go to church. Yeah I know, go figure. My point being that there's always a positive way to deal with (and get along with) those who believe differently.

I've never been religious, but I hung out at a Unitarian church for a huge chunk of my childhood and those people gave me a really positive opinion of Christians at a young age.    It wasn't until I was older that I realized that the Christians I knew were one one kind of thousands of kinds of Christians and that some Christians felt they were justified in taking their beliefs and trying to make laws based on those beliefs to the exclusion of anyone else's beliefs under the guise of being god-endorsed-'right'.  That's when I went from an atheist who didn't think anything of being an atheist to a vocal and self defined atheist.  I don't care what anyone else wants to believe, but when it starts infringing on the lives of others, it's wrong.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"Yeah I get that but as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

Oh if only life were that easy.  

 

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"I enjoy the company of my religious friends so much, that I still go to church. Yeah I know, go figure. My point being that there's always a positive way to deal with (and get along with) those who believe differently.

I've never been religious, but I hung out at a Unitarian church for a huge chunk of my childhood and those people gave me a really positive opinion of Christians at a young age.    It wasn't until I was older that I realized that the Christians I knew were one one kind of thousands of kinds of Christians and that some Christians felt they were justified in taking their beliefs and trying to make laws based on those beliefs to the exclusion of anyone else's beliefs under the guise of being god-endorsed-'right'.  That's when I went from an atheist who didn't think anything of being an atheist to a vocal and self defined atheist.  I don't care what anyone else wants to believe, but when it starts infringing on the lives of others, it's wrong.

Too true.

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"I guess it's because I'm a realist, I dunno really, I just don't buy the whole "God diddit" theory any more. It's hard to explain the transition, maybe it's just a change of mindset more than anything else. How did you become an atheist? Were you religious at any time?

i in no way mean to judge you, make you feel uncomfortable, or unwelcome. but you seem to quite staunchly defend christianity. i say christianity because you still attend church and seem quite happy to have your children in a catholic school. i personally have no issue or argument for any of that. it just struck me as odd that you would label yourself as an atheist, yet put down atheists while defending christians and there beliefs. i suppose the atheists you mention are individuals like anyone else, yet they were used to defend the "other side of the argument."
so you are not sure why you became an atheist? are you sure you want to be an atheist? not buying the god did its is a start if atheism is what you really want. again i dont judge you and i apologize if i have painted a completely wrong picture. but for a moment i suspected you as a christian pretending to be an atheist... whatever that would accomplish. i guess faith is hard for some to drop, and for others it seems to fall off all on its own.

i became an atheist long ago when i was a kid. no god has presented me with any kind of reason to believe in it/him/her. i have never felt, seen, tasted, or heard anything to make me think, yes there is a god. to claim god is present in something is as silly to me as to state there is an invisible banana inside us all that controls us. yes he flashes and dances as well.
my last bit of faith was that god was present, but he didnt give a shit about anyone or anything. he was emotionally dead. i never bought into the idea of satan, god seemed evil enough all on his own to me.
but, now... i confidently say its ALL nutty.

I'm not defending christianity or any other religion. Why are you seeing this is a battle, with sides, and the need for defence? That's not the way I want to look at it, it's not a war. And can I say, I'm not putting down "atheists" for being atheists, since I am one, and that would of course be silly. I was just saying that sometimes some atheists can be uptight and turn everything into a big issue, even my atheist friends are (just about) able to admit it. But if I didn't believe that the majority of any kind of group wasn't resonable, I wouldn't bother coming here. My best friend is an atheist, and most of my more easygoing friends are christians, go figure.

It's not a matter of wanting or not wanting to be an atheist any more than it is for a gay person to want to or not want to be gay. It's just how it is. I can't put it into words that well, some people are better at that kind of thing than others. Yes I know it's odd for an atheist to like the company of christians and to want to be around them enough to go to church, but then again, it's odd, unfortunately, because of this "us and them" attitude that I personally prefer to stay away from, for people to want to come together. More atheists should go to churches, it's a good lesson in how to put things into perspective, how to see what really matters.

QuoteWhy are you seeing this is a battle, with sides, and the need for defense?

because often it is.

QuoteThat's not the way I want to look at it, it's not a war.

until christmas time? then the war starts?

QuoteAnd can I say, I'm not putting down "atheists" for being atheists, since I am one, and that would of course be silly. I was just saying that sometimes some atheists can be uptight and turn everything into a big issue, even my atheist friends are (just about) able to admit it. But if I didn't believe that the majority of any kind of group wasn't reasonable, I wouldn't bother coming here.

i in no way disagree with this

QuoteIt's not a matter of wanting or not wanting to be an atheist any more than it is for a gay person to want to or not want to be gay.

i would say that is a good analogy

QuoteYes I know it's odd for an atheist to like the company of christians and to want to be around them

nah

Quotewant to be around them enough to go to church

yeah thats odd.

Quotepeople to want to come together

all people? because i know A LOT of people who are interested in nothing more than power. peace and brotherhood are after thoughts.

QuoteMore atheists should go to churches, it's a good lesson in how to put things into perspective, how to see what really matters.

what is it that really matters that i can only understand in a church environment? why would i go to church to worship a deity that represents all that i think is a crappy idea?
i have no beef with moderate christians or laid back people of any belief. i dont go to parties or social events and "preach" my atheism. i dont hold others to what i would view as my "moral standards." i expect the same from others, no invisible man gives others the right to think of me as anything less than human. i dont wish to hear about how my soul needs to be saved or to quote one "friend of a friend" that its "to late for me the devil is all twisted up inside me. hell is the only thing in my future."
now i do make huge attempts to view people as individuals but i fail miserably at this when a large group of people rooted in the same belief system, spanning across every race, gender, creed, class, and background all are rooted in the same beliefs. organized religion is nothing more than hate in my eyes. i want nothing to do with it.

Maybe you need to shift your focus. Churches aren't the only places where you can learn about what matters, but that doesn't mean that they aren't. And you don't have to worship, no one goes around checking. I actually enjoy all the happy clappy stuff, it's corny but it's a nice break from the routine of everyday life, and I like the artwork in churches. Idon't mind the preaching either because everyone is there out of their own free will, I just take what I like out of it and as for the rest I accept it for what it is. I don't know, I think it's really just a matter of how you want to look at it. By the way I'm not saying you should go to church, I'm just saying what I like about it, and that there's different ways to look at it. If I decided to see it like you do, and focus on what you focus on, I probably wouldn't bother going either.

QuoteMaybe you need to shift your focus. Churches aren't the only places where you can learn about what matters

what is it you are saying that matters?

QuoteAnd you don't have to worship, no one goes around checking.

from what ive experienced in churches worship isnt really on the agenda. its mostly snobbery and judging others, gossip, and the likes of that. perhaps we have just had different experiences with different people.

Quoteand I like the artwork in churches

ah something about church we both can apprechiate  

QuoteIdon't mind the preaching either because everyone is there out of their own free will, I just take what I like out of it and as for the rest I accept it for what it is. I don't know, I think it's really just a matter of how you want to look at it.

meh, i guess you have that ability if you dont belive in anything the preacher is saying.

QuoteBy the way I'm not saying you should go to church, I'm just saying what I like about it, and that there's different ways to look at it.

i took your posts in no other way.

QuoteIf I decided to see it like you do, and focus on what you focus on, I probably wouldn't bother going either.

again, we must have had completely different experiences.

Lots of things matter. But in church obviously the focus is on being good and all that corny kind of stuff. The bells and whistles, the crosses, Adam & Eve, I don't let it bother me because it's not a problem, I let it wash over me. I have to say, you've probably been to some strange churches because where I go and where I've been there's no snobbery or gossip as far as I can tell, well no more than anywhere else, anyway. It's a gethering of people so you're bound to get all sorts. It's not a problem if you don't make it one, and it's not hard to do.

QuoteIt's a gethering of people so you're bound to get all sorts.

100% true. perhaps "birds of a feather flock together."

Maybe it would help this discussion if we were to clarify what we each mean by "Christians". I think a lot of this "us vs. them", taking sides kind of stuff is directly attributable to some of the fundy types out there. And yes, I even know some of them who are pretty laid back about it, believe it or not. Consider that almost all of my extended family, parents, and siblings fall into that category.

But I won't go to any of their church services for roughly the same reasons I don't attend Klan meetings.

I suspect we're all in more agreement than disagreement here.