Happy Atheist Forum

Hi,

I am looking for views on the religious mind, from a perspective that when a person of faith reads the bible they fail to see the inconsistencies. Even when debating or discussing, in my experience, you cannot question religious belief even when you state the obvious. How do you open the mind of a religious person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

You can't make them understand it or question it. They've typically used the compartmentational capabilities of their mind to switch off the circuits to logic and critical thinking where it concerns those kinds of beliefs. I used to be one of those believers, I know how it works, and that it takes a great deal of intellect to finally break through that, but I had to do it on my own. That is not to say one shouldn't try - your arguments can stick with a thinking person for a long time, even if they reject them at the time. Those kinds of arguments became very useful to me, once I began questioning. But it was ultimately my own experiences and my own thoughts on them that really initiated the questioning.

As for specific biblical inconsistencies, I was very good at coming up with justifications and explanations for them, when those offered by my pastor or teachers didn't suffice. It was rather like an art form for me, coming up with alternative, 'possible' scenarios, reading 'between the lines' to bypass the contradiction. It was all really silly, of course, playing the "what if" game.

That's one reason I get so frustrated by it now - I know there just isn't any end to it and I can tell when a person is never going to stop finding new angles, or will say anything just to keep talking. This is a tactic for maintaining the illusion that there is still an open discussion or that there are still unresolved questions. It's fruitless to continue such a conversation. In a "debate" such as that, you're at a distinct disadvantage if you limit yourself to saying only things that make sense and move things forward, rather than spinning wheels. Eventually, you run out of things to say back, while they get to go on blithely spouting nonsense and believing they've won the argument, though in reality you've simply grown sick of the repetition and abandoned them as a lost cause.

Quote from: "wullie1320"How do you open the mind of a religious person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

How do you open the mind of any person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

I'm a programmer, you might say a serious logic nerd.   I've gone through my whole life expecting life and people to be logical, and even after 58 years, am still surprised when it doesn't work that way.   Duh...

What I'm learning, quite slowly, is that it isn't logical to expect people to be fully logical, and that especially includes people like me, (and maybe you) who are convinced they are very logical.

Elliebean, I think you are right in what you say about "maintaining the illusion ". I think it's good that you questioned religion to give yourself a better outlook on life. I have know doubt you now value life more than you did before. I have had conversations with my friend who is very religious. She says god is real, and I ask how? where is the evidence?, she will reply. "becuase he is real", I would say "how is he real?", "because I have felt him". I said "really" she replied "you'll understand once you feel him" So you are right, it's endless answers of denial coupled with illogical reasoning. This frustrates me and I just want to make them all better.

Quote from: "wullie1320"Elliebean, I think you are right in what you say about "maintaining the illusion ". I think it's good that you questioned religion to give yourself a better outlook on life. I have know doubt you now value life more than you did before. I have had conversations with my friend who is very religious. She says god is real, and I ask how? where is the evidence?, she will reply. "becuase he is real", I would say "how is he real?", "because I have felt him". I said "really" she replied "you'll understand once you feel him" So you are right, it's endless answers of denial coupled with illogical reasoning. This frustrates me and I just want to make them all better.

Yes if only we could cure all those pesky believers. Maybe we could start clinics where we show all those stupid people the error of their ways.

Quote from: "Dagda"Yes if only we could cure all those pesky believers. Maybe we could start clinics where we show all those stupid people the error of their ways.

 Yes, and we would call it "school".

Now don't start taking things all personal. No one's threatening to take your religious freedom away or saying that all theists are stupid, so just calm down. We're not talking about forced indoctrination camps - if anything, it's the fact that such things already exist that we find objectionable - this is about people giving people the keys to their own prisons, equipping them to "cure" their own reliance on superstition, using sound, rational, critical thinking.

Quote from: "elliebean"- this is about people giving people the keys to their own prisons,

You see, this is the very same thing that many of the best religious thinkers wish to accomplish.  In some cases they have thought about this more deeply, and over a far longer period, than the vast majority of us.   And this is one of the reasons that religion continues generation after generation after generation, for thousands of years.

The prison we all inhabit, is the prison of "me".  

It is the human condition to experience the universe as "me and everything else".   At it's heart, this is a quite lonely experience, which we typically wallpaper over with lots of thought, talk and busyness etc.  

It's why we are all here on this forum, filling the hours with chit chat.  Because to sit quietly in a chair and do nothing, would be to face the aloneness.    

Try it.  Don't take my word.  Do the experiment.

Go to a nice spot in nature.   Get there early in the morning.  Find a nice spot.  And sit there all day, until sunset, doing nothing.   If you can.  See how long you can hack it.  

The resistance you will find soon emerging is the very normal human instinct to run from our aloneness, to fill the prison cell with something, anything.

When somebody says, "Love your neighbor as yourself" they are trying to offer us the keys to our prison cell.

Sadly, the best parts of this often get buried under a mountain of phoney baloney power tripping etc, and that's where I see your point.

That isn't the prison I was talking about, but I see your point also. I just don't think one needs to believe in gods or magical things to love your neighbor, or to escape from the "prison of me" or anything else.  

In fact, I think letting go of one's god-belief can be one more step in achieving just that.

Quote from: "elliebean"That isn't the prison I was talking about, but I see your point also. I just don't think one needs to believe in gods or magical things to love your neighbor, or to escape from the "prison of me" or anything else.  :-)  

QuoteIn fact, I think letting go of one's god-belief can be one more step in achieving just that.

It can, agreed.   For you.

I would agree to the extent that religion can indeed imprison the mind, but that's only due to outside factors and acceptance without questioning. What if the bible had not been written?

Quote from: "typist"thought, And when we do that, we leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether.    

Unless we stumble in to a forum full of happy atheists, and then that plan goes out the window.    

@ Typist, we all need thoughts to keep the brain functioning, if you don’t have thought we would not have the function to rationalise and think things through. A lot like the religious today. But I think I get your point. Correct me if I’m wrong, are you saying just forget about the whole issue of theist and atheist and you can go one step further by stepping outside the box? Even if you do this you still need to think about it? but to leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether, religion must cease to exsist, and when that happens (i live in hope) the athiest would not exsist. you would then leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether.  

On another point, I’m not sure you can even go one step further than atheist, if so what would that be called, in fact I don’t even like the word atheist myself.

Hi Wullie,

Quote from: "wullie1320"@ Typist, we all need thoughts to keep the brain functioning, if you don’t have thought we would not have the function to rationalise and think things through.

I agree that thought is necessary for our survival, and for completing daily life tasks etc.   But it is obviously not necessary that we think every minute of our lives.  

The purpose of both religion and science is to try to understand reality.   One way to approach that is to create theories and then debate them, ie. thought.   Another way is to stop thinking and talking, and quietly observe reality.  

The biggest obstacle to clear objective observation is thought, the chronic pattern of chatter running through our minds.   You know, while I'm thinking about what I'm going to say next, I'm not really listening to what you are saying.  

QuoteCorrect me if I’m wrong, are you saying just forget about the whole issue of theist and atheist and you can go one step further by stepping outside the box?

Well, as you can see, I have no objection to thinking about theism and atheism.
Both are made of thought, and that is a "box" of sorts.   I'm just saying there are other options to explore too.  

As example, a bird scientist might go to a conference and discuss and debate many theories about birds, ie. thought, abstractions.   That same scientist might go out in to the field, and quietly observe real birds in real life, without any thoughts, without any pre-conceived ideas or theories to defend, so that they can observe very clearly and objectively, ie. non-thought.

QuoteEven if you do this you still need to think about it? but to leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether, religion must cease to exsist, and when that happens (i live in hope) the athiest would not exsist. you would then leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether.  

In the moments when we aren't thinking, but just observing reality quietly and objectively, there is no theism, no atheism.   As soon as we return to our thoughts and theories, theism and atheism reappear.

Imho...

I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984.   To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

Quote from: "wullie1320"Hi,

I am looking for views on the religious mind, from a perspective that when a person of faith reads the bible they fail to see the inconsistencies. Even when debating or discussing, in my experience, you cannot question religious belief even when you state the obvious. How do you open the mind of a religious person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

I think that the best would be to use a can opener.

Quote from: "buttercupbaby"I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984.   To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

That's not fair. My mother and grandmother are the best people I know, and they really have their heads screwed on, and they're both very religious. It's not a mental illness to have beliefs, it's just different, everyone has their own take. I don't see what good it does to place oneself bove others just because they are different. Some of things my mother says I find crazy (in a funny way) but I don't see any need to belittle her. We all have religious friends I presume, they can't all be mentally ill.

No, but some of them are pretty close.

Quote from: "buttercupbaby"I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984. To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

Your can't-we-all-get-alongisms are starting to sound a little preachy to me.

Quote from: "elliebean"No, but some of them are pretty close.

Quote from: "buttercupbaby"I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984. To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

Your can't-we-all-get-alongisms are starting to sound a little preachy to me.

Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with it. Why not get along?

Oh, I have nothing against getting along; I'm actually a very easy person to get along with and give people more benefit of the doubt than most. It's just that to me it seems that to insist on suggesting that christians (in this case) are somehow more moral, more friendly, more humble, and more tolerant people is biased. It could be that I'm simply biased to the opposite position, but my past and present experiences with and observations of people and events make it very hard to believe that to be the case.

Here maybe this will help settle your argument.  This was posted in another section of the forum btw.

http://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png

I think it is a mental illness, and we all must find a cure, logic and reason does not seam to wrok...

What will?  

I'm not suggesting that christians are more moral than atheists, but christianity does have a moral code, and atheism doesn't. My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one. And let's turn that on its head. If christianity was nothing more than a tradition and there were no commandments, and atheism had a moral code, I would then say that an atheist is a bit more likely to be moral than a christian. I hope no one misreads what I've just said, because it's really quite straightforward. Atheism lacks a moral code, and that is what creates somewhat of a disadvantage in terms of what I'm talking about. The fact that atheism is about no God is neither here nor there, because you can quite easily have a moral code without God. And I'm not saying that atheism should have a moral code.

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"I'm not suggesting that christians are more moral than atheists, but christianity does have a moral code, and atheism doesn't. My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one. And let's turn that on its head. If christianity was nothing more than a tradition and there were no commandments, and atheism had a moral code, I would then say that an atheist is a bit more likely to be moral than a christian. I hope no one misreads what I've just said, because it's really quite straightforward. Atheism lacks a moral code, and that is what creates somewhat of a disadvantage in terms of what I'm talking about. The fact that atheism is about no God is neither here nor there, because you can quite easily have a moral code without God. And I'm not saying that atheism should have a moral code.

Lol what does not believing in god have to do with moral codes?  

so religion is the only source of moral code? im curious as to your view of morality, but that is a long drawn out and possibly over done subject.

Quote from: "G-Roll"

Quote from: "Adrian Simmons"I'm not suggesting that christians are more moral than atheists, but christianity does have a moral code, and atheism doesn't. My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one. And let's turn that on its head. If christianity was nothing more than a tradition and there were no commandments, and atheism had a moral code, I would then say that an atheist is a bit more likely to be moral than a christian. I hope no one misreads what I've just said, because it's really quite straightforward. Atheism lacks a moral code, and that is what creates somewhat of a disadvantage in terms of what I'm talking about. The fact that atheism is about no God is neither here nor there, because you can quite easily have a moral code without God. And I'm not saying that atheism should have a moral code.

Lol what does not believing in god have to do with moral codes?  

so religion is the only source of moral code? im curious as to your view of morality, but that is a long drawn out and possibly over done subject.

That's right, not believing in God has nothing to do with moral codes, in itself. It's up to each person to have one or not. That's what I'm saying. Of course religion isn't the only source of moral codes, it's one of many.

QuoteMy point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one.

is the law of the land a moral code? something that forms a social contract to treat people at least decently?
for example the law states do not steal, dont kill people, dont have sex with minors, treat animals with respect, no breaking and entering... ect.
so would a lawful person be as moral as a religous person? or does everyone have a "moral code" to follow whether they want to or not?

Quote from: "G-Roll"

QuoteMy point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one.

is the law of the land a moral code? something that forms a social contract to treat people at least decently?
for example the law states do not steal, dont kill people, dont have sex with minors, treat animals with respect, no breaking and entering... ect.
so would a lawful person be as moral as a religous person? or does everyone have a "moral code" to follow whether they want to or not?

I wouldn't know. I'd hope so.

to further take it would modern law be better morally than anything that was formed back in biblical times. you know good old stoning, genocide like in the OT, the encouragement of slavery, and so forth.
i just dont see how one can claim that a faith that was formed back in the bronze age "and doesnt change" is considered moral. sure there are good things to take from it, but why not just be moral and modern? why believe that because you accept primitive superstition that you are more moral than someone who doesnt. not implying that you stated anything like that.

The thing is people have all sorts of ideas like slavery as the centuries progress. I'm sure it would have happened without religion. People can twist ideas to justify many things and I wouldn't have put it past people in a society without God to say something along the the lines of let's enslave or eliminate some people, survival of the fittest, that kind of thing, and people would have gone along with it. As I say anything can be twisted, it doesn't have to be true or accurate, just believeable enough. Hitler managed to twist a lot of people's minds, I'm sure it can easily be done in an atheist society as well as a religious one. Morally, religion has plenty to offer, and atheism, although it doesn't have a moral code, can contribute too. If God exists I don't think he'd break down and cry if some people don't believe in him, let alone punish anyone, so to me, belief in God is just a harmless belief in itself, just as atheism is a harmless view also. It's what you do with your views that matters.

QuoteThe thing is people have all sorts of ideas like slavery as the centuries progress. I'm sure it would have happened without religion. People can twist ideas to justify many things and I wouldn't have put it past people in a society without God to say something along the the lines of let's enslave or eliminate some people, survival of the fittest, that kind of thing, and people would have gone along with it. As I say anything can be twisted, it doesn't have to be true or accurate, just believable enough.

i agree but thats not what im saying. everyone has a "moral code" whether they want it or not. if you break the law (the social contract) you go to jail. so in a since everyone is moral... or imprisoned. regardless of their faith.

QuoteMorally, religion has plenty to offer, and atheism, although it doesn't have a moral code, can contribute too.

how does atheism contribute to morality? perhaps the removal of gods/superstitions in other affairs?

Quotebelief in God is just a harmless belief in itself, just as atheism is a harmless view also. It's what you do with your views that matters.

well said.

Quote from: "G-Roll"

QuoteThe thing is people have all sorts of ideas like slavery as the centuries progress. I'm sure it would have happened without religion. People can twist ideas to justify many things and I wouldn't have put it past people in a society without God to say something along the the lines of let's enslave or eliminate some people, survival of the fittest, that kind of thing, and people would have gone along with it. As I say anything can be twisted, it doesn't have to be true or accurate, just believable enough.

i agree but thats not what im saying. everyone has a "moral code" whether they want it or not. if you break the law (the social contract) you go to jail. so in a since everyone is moral... or imprisoned. regardless of their faith.

QuoteMorally, religion has plenty to offer, and atheism, although it doesn't have a moral code, can contribute too.

how does atheism contribute to morality? perhaps the removal of gods/superstitions in other affairs?

Quotebelief in God is just a harmless belief in itself, just as atheism is a harmless view also. It's what you do with your views that matters.

well said.

I meant that atheism contributes to society because it encourages people to question everything. But I don't think that there's any need to remove gods or superstitions, on the contrary society is richer for it. Without religions and superstitions, cultures would be more boring, everything would be blander and I don't fancy the idea. I don't know if you've ever seen the strange ceremonies that the Dogon tribe in Africa have, but they look like fun. And who cares if sometimes they influence other areas of life? It's all just a bit of fun, you don't have to believe in it.

I agree with what a lot of people have said.

I don't think it comes down to any *one* thing.  When I was a fundy, and I would begin to doubt or see an inconsistancy, I would find myself awash in a flood of apologetic props.  I think the biggest one was my inherent worthlessness as a sinner.  "Who am I to question the Grand Poobah of All"?  Throw in a touch of Pascal's Wager and the idea that "God is an enigma" along with a bit of "Blind Faith is a virtue.  Just keep believing anyway and I'll get a reward!"

Sticky little web that is.

Setting aside for a moment that I disagree with a lot of the "moral" teachings of much of christianity, and the fact that many christians fail to live within the confines of those teachings; More often than not, I see very religious people's sense of morality limited by their adherence to those moral codes, rather than enhanced by it.

the moral code was about long before religion, if you think about it, humans have lived for at least 50 to 100 thousand years. So in order to survive as a race there would have had to be order amongst communities and with that comes moral code... if there was none I think the human race would never have survived.

It just seems to me that the religious hierarchy of this world seek to psychologically own the mind of the week. That in my eyes if the biggest crime on the human race and come with it's massive monitary profits. I now understand what the religious hierarchy defend there position on religion. It's a same as one of the commandments is You shall not make for yourself an idol, which alot of the week idolise, for example, look at rome when the pope makes an appearance. shocking....

Seeming we are on the subject I found this article by the might christopher hitchens about his views of the 10 commandments.
An excerpt:
“There has never yet been any society, Confucian or Buddhist or Islamic, where the legal codes did not frown upon murder and theft. These offenses were certainly crimes in the Pharaonic Egypt from which the children of Israel had, if the story is to be believed, just escaped. So the middle-ranking commandments, of which the chief one has long been confusingly rendered "thou shalt not kill," leave us none the wiser as to whether the almighty considers warfare to be murder, or taxation and confiscation to be theft. Tautology hovers over the whole enterprise.”

I thought id include this as well just because its pure hitchens:
“One is presuming (is one not?) that this is the same god who actually created the audience he was addressing. This leaves us with the insoluble mystery of why he would have molded ("in his own image," yet) a covetous, murderous, disrespectful, lying, and adulterous species. Create them sick, and then command them to be well? What a mad despot this is, and how fortunate we are that he exists only in the minds of his worshippers.”

Here is the rest of the article
http://www.slate.com/id/2087621/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2087621/)