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A Ugandan lawmaker wants to pass a bill that calls for the execution of HIV+ homosexuals.  Wow.

Quote from: "The Washington Post"KAMPALA, UGANDA -- A Ugandan lawmaker refused Friday to withdraw proposed legislation that would impose the death penalty for some gay men and lesbians despite international condemnation and presidential opposition to a measure that some critics said could scare off foreign investors.

Lawmaker David Bahati said he will not heed a call late Thursday from the government to drop the proposed bill, which has provoked criticism from gay rights groups and protests in London, New York and Washington.

"We have our children in schools to protect against being recruited into" homosexuality, Bahati said. "The process of legislating a law to protect our children against homosexuality and defending our family values must go on." The country's parliament is expected to debate the measure in late February or early March.

Although President Yoweri Museveni has told colleagues that he believes the bill is too harsh and has encouraged his ruling National Resistance Movement Party to overturn the death sentence provision, Information Minister Kabakumba Matsiko said the parliament will act independently.
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Several lawmakers and officials from the ruling party said this week that they will push to remove the death penalty statute. They have proposed instead that gays receive counseling to convert them to heterosexuality.

Lawmakers outlawed gay marriage in 2005. The proposed legislation is being promoted as an update to Uganda's statutes against homosexuality, which date from the 1950s and do not address homosexuality by name, only by what the law terms as "unnatural offenses" and "gross indecency." The draft bill says anyone convicted of a homosexual act could face life imprisonment.

Current legislation imposes seven years in prison. Under the new law, the death sentence could apply to sexually active gays living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. The law would also include Ugandans living abroad, who could be extradited and punished.

http://tinyurl.com/yzonqw9

The quote in bold could just as easily come from Palin or Bachmann or any number of US politicians or pundits currently in a position of power and influence.  

Uganda is a country whose majority is Christian, and this atrocious legislature is and example of what I fear about religion having government power.  This is why I feel religion is dangerous and why I am vocal in my rejection of it.

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(with you, not Dave)

I gotta agree.  Some theists are indeed obsessed with homosexuality.   They never seem to get that their obsession looks a lot weirder than any flavor of sex.  

The good news is that with every day that passes, these folks are dying off, being replaced by a younger generation that seems refreshingly free of this prejudice.  Only a few more years, and this sick circus will pass.

We should also recognize that there are plenty of theists who embrace the gay community.   Not to mention, there are lots of gay theists.

Quote from: "Typist"I gotta agree.  Some theists are indeed obsessed with homosexuality.   They never seem to get that their obsession looks a lot weirder than any flavor of sex.  

The good news is that with every day that passes, these folks are dying off, being replaced by a younger generation that seems refreshingly free of this prejudice.  Only a few more years, and this sick circus will pass.

We should also recognize that there are plenty of theists who embrace the gay community.   Not to mention, there are lots of gay theists.

Really?  There is a country where theists are trying to legislate the execution of homosexuals and your reply is - yeah, there are some theists that don't like gays.  But we should recognize those theists who do!  Wow, guy.  That's amazing.

Please identify the statements in my post that you feel are factually incorrect.  Thank you.

Blanket hatred of theists bears an uncomfortable resemblance to blanket hatred of gays, eh?

Quote from: "Typist"Please identify the statements in my post that you feel are factually incorrect.  Thank you.

Please identify where in my response to your statement I claimed you were factually incorrect.  Thank you.

Please identify exactly how we exit this pointless exchange.   Thank you.  

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Current legislation imposes seven years in prison. Under the new law, the death sentence could apply to sexually active gays living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. The law would also include Ugandans living abroad, who could be extradited and punished.

To me, this is the scariest part of this article.  So Ugandans who are gay, and want to escape the horror and persecution of these hate-filled laws, can actually be sent back to their home country where they will be jailed or killed?  

The question is, what kind of F'd up country would extradite them?

Quote from: "bfat"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Current legislation imposes seven years in prison. Under the new law, the death sentence could apply to sexually active gays living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. The law would also include Ugandans living abroad, who could be extradited and punished.

To me, this is the scariest part of this article.  So Ugandans who are gay, and want to escape the horror and persecution of these hate-filled laws, can actually be sent back to their home country where they will be jailed or killed?  

The question is, what kind of F'd up country would extradite them?

According to the laws of Uganda, yes. I'm pretty sure most European countries would grant asylum to any Ugandan unfortunate enough to be in that situation. In fact, i believe there is a law that states we (the UK) are not allowed to extradite anyone who would be sent back to their home country to die.

Quote from: "Typist"I gotta agree.  Some theists are indeed obsessed with homosexuality.   They never seem to get that their obsession looks a lot weirder than any flavor of sex.  

The good news is that with every day that passes, these folks are dying off, being replaced by a younger generation that seems refreshingly free of this prejudice.  Only a few more years, and this sick circus will pass.

We should also recognize that there are plenty of theists who embrace the gay community.   Not to mention, there are lots of gay theists.

Sure, only some theists are obsessed with homosexuality - but they're killing people!  Human beings dead.  People murdering homosexual people due to religion.  Right now.  

And "this sick circus" will not pass in a few years if people don't do something about it.  It has been escalating, not dwindling.  In Uganda and throughout Africa, the Christian atrocities have been steadily increasing.  They've not only been targeting homosexuals, they've also been torturing children accused of witchcraft.  They are "correctively" raping lesbians and pouring battery acid down children's throats.  

This is the "younger generation" doing this and teaching their children to do the same.

We are not comparing gay American Christians or gay accepting American Christians to murdering Christian pastors in Uganda, we are talking about the Christian terrorists in control of Uganda's government.

We're not here making up generic hate speech about theists in general, we are talking about Christian groups doing obscenely horrible things to human beings - as usually happens when religions control governments.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "bfat"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Current legislation imposes seven years in prison. Under the new law, the death sentence could apply to sexually active gays living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. The law would also include Ugandans living abroad, who could be extradited and punished.

To me, this is the scariest part of this article.  So Ugandans who are gay, and want to escape the horror and persecution of these hate-filled laws, can actually be sent back to their home country where they will be jailed or killed?  

The question is, what kind of F'd up country would extradite them?

According to the laws of Uganda, yes. I'm pretty sure most European countries would grant asylum to any Ugandan unfortunate enough to be in that situation. In fact, i believe there is a law that states we (the UK) are not allowed to extradite anyone who would be sent back to their home country to die.

I worry what would happen if they were caught in the US.  There is a strong, vicious ant-gay undercurrent in America.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Sure, only some theists are obsessed with homosexuality - but they're killing people!  Human beings dead

Are you interested in theists, or in gays?   If the later, then you'll give just as big a speech when atheists kill gays.   Have you done so?  Can you provide the link?

As best I can recall, we're well in to this thread now, and so far nobody has shown any concern for events where atheists kill gays.  

That's why it seems reasonable to offer the theory that posters aren't actually all that interested in gays, but are just grabbing yet another chance to hate theists.   Honestly, let's not drift in to the same generalizing mindsets that allow people to rationalize actions like the Ugandans are taking.  Ok?

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I worry what would happen if they were caught in the US.  There is a strong, vicious ant-gay undercurrent in America.

No kidding.  I just watched Fall From Grace, a documentary about Fred Phelps and his anti-gay hate campaign (he's the "God hates fags" nut-bar), where they desecrate flags and think that soldiers being killed in the middle east is God's wrath for gays here in the U.S. (which somehow makes sense to them...).  It's terrifying, and if that exists here where there's freedom of religion, I can't imagine whats happening in stricter, more-religious countries.

Quote from: "Typist"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Sure, only some theists are obsessed with homosexuality - but they're killing people!  Human beings dead

Are you interested in theists, or in gays?   If the later, then you'll give just as big a speech when atheists kill gays.   Have you done so?  Can you provide the link?

As best I can recall, we're well in to this thread now, and so far nobody has shown any concern for events where atheists kill gays.  

That's why it seems reasonable to offer the theory that posters aren't actually all that interested in gays, but are just grabbing yet another chance to hate theists.   Honestly, let's not drift in to the same generalizing mindsets that allow people to rationalize actions like the Ugandans are taking.  Ok?

Point me to the country where atheists (with full support of their local community and with support from many atheists worldwide) are killing gays legally or to the country where atheists are performing torturing exorcisms on children or to the country where atheists are raping lesbians to make them straight.  Point me to that country and I'll write scathing rants about them.  Point to the atheists doing those things (or equally awful things) and I'll lay some disapproval on them, too.

Not only are Ugandan Christians supporting the execution of gays but a group of American Christians went and participated in this legislation.  

Where did anyone say all Christians or most Christians?
 
Next you'll tell us we shouldn't bash on the Islamic extremists that took down the world trade center because atheists have killed people, too.

Or is it only when Christian extremists are called in question?

Quote from: "Typist"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Sure, only some theists are obsessed with homosexuality - but they're killing people!  Human beings dead

Are you interested in theists, or in gays?   If the later, then you'll give just as big a speech when atheists kill gays.   Have you done so?  Can you provide the link?

As best I can recall, we're well in to this thread now, and so far nobody has shown any concern for events where atheists kill gays.  

That's why it seems reasonable to offer the theory that posters aren't actually all that interested in gays, but are just grabbing yet another chance to hate theists.   Honestly, let's not drift in to the same generalizing mindsets that allow people to rationalize actions like the Ugandans are taking.  Ok?

Finally, conclusive evidence that there is no longer any good reason to ever reply to another one of Typist's innane posts. Obviously he will say anything just to continue talking, as long as it's contrary to anything said by any atheist and never actually makes a point.

Quote from: "Typist"I gotta agree.  Some theists are indeed obsessed with homosexuality.   They never seem to get that their obsession looks a lot weirder than any flavor of sex.  

The good news is that with every day that passes, these folks are dying off, being replaced by a younger generation that seems refreshingly free of this prejudice.  Only a few more years, and this sick circus will pass.

We should also recognize that there are plenty of theists who embrace the gay community.   Not to mention, there are lots of gay theists.

That may be true to a point in the western world but I'm pretty sure you'd be very hard pressed to find any gay clergy in Uganda. I think your prediction of a few more years is quite a bit off, though. You only have to visit any pro-gay vids on youtube and read some of the comments there to realise that the fundamentalist attitude is still very prevalent. Remember, these people have babies and bring up their children to think the same way.

I have a video of Anita Bryant getting a pie in the face on my youtube account and I regularly have to delete hate comments. I leave the intolerant stuff up but when people start saying 'all fags should die', I just hit delete and ban them. I can't be arsed to try and reason with people of that mindset. The correlation I've seen from looking at these people's accounts is that most tend to be religiously oriented and usually have some sort of jesus symbol as their avatar. I'm not saying all christians hate gays but there is definitely a strong correlation between religious motivation and the mistrust or hatred of homosexuals. The bible teaches it, after all.

Of course, there are gay clergy in the more forward-thinking countries and that is to be applauded, but this thread was originally about the death penalties for homosexuals in Uganda. It doesn't mean any of us are disregarding any good facets of tolerant theists.

I think some of your preconceptions about the motivation of some of the users on this forum are misplaced.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Next you'll tell us we shouldn't bash on the Islamic extremists that took down the world trade center because atheists have killed people, too.

Next I will tell you that we should be careful to praise the wonderful qualities of the vast majority of muslims while we aim our outrage at the tiny minority of muslim terrorists.

Same thing for theists of other flavors.  The overwhelming vast majority of Christians have no interest whatsoever in killing gays.  If we want to be clear minded, logical and fair, this very large fact needs to be part of the story too.

Quote from: "elliebean"Finally, conclusive evidence that there is no longer any good reason to ever reply to another one of Typist's innane posts. Obviously he will say anything just to continue talking, as long as it's contrary to anything said by any atheist and never actually makes a point.

TIP:   When we can't figure out how to debate a post, debate the poster!

Quote from: "Typist"

Quote from: "elliebean"Finally, conclusive evidence that there is no longer any good reason to ever reply to another one of Typist's innane posts. Obviously he will say anything just to continue talking, as long as it's contrary to anything said by any atheist and never actually makes a point.

TIP:   When we can't figure out how to debate a post, debate the poster!

It's interesting that you're attempting to dismiss Ellie by insinuating she can't figure out how to debate your posts when Ellie is clearly saying your posts aren't worth debating.  

Quote from: "pinkocommie"It's interesting that you're attempting to dismiss Ellie by insinuating she can't figure out how to debate your posts when Ellie is clearly saying your posts aren't worth debating.  

Then why is she debating them?   Like you, she wants to debate, and position herself above debate, at the same time.   It's intellectually dishonest.  

It's perfectly legal, and I don't mind, but it makes you look silly to keep saying I'm not worth reading and replying to, and yet you keep reading and replying to my posts.  

You're having an argument with yourself.  Resolve it, and your statements will seem more credible.

Quote from: "Typist"

Quote from: "pinkocommie"It's interesting that you're attempting to dismiss Ellie by insinuating she can't figure out how to debate your posts when Ellie is clearly saying your posts aren't worth debating.   lol  Thanks for the laugh, super buddy.

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Wait, you're whining about someone else being intellectually dishonest?    Thanks for the laugh, super buddy.

TIP:   If we can't figure out how to debate a post, debate the poster!

TIP:  To look silly, declare something pointless, and then repeatedly do it in public.

Quote from: "karadan"I have a video of Anita Bryant getting a pie in the face on my youtube account

Link, please!  

Quote from: "Typist"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Next you'll tell us we shouldn't bash on the Islamic extremists that took down the world trade center because atheists have killed people, too.

Next I will tell you that we should be careful to praise the wonderful qualities of the vast majority of muslims while we aim our outrage at the tiny minority of muslim terrorists.

Same thing for theists of other flavors.  The overwhelming vast majority of Christians have no interest whatsoever in killing gays.  If we want to be clear minded, logical and fair, this very large fact needs to be part of the story too.

Again, where did I or anyone say all Christians or most Christians?  

Go watch the news.  When the evening news tells us about a shooting do they then go on to explain that not all humans shoot people and that there are plenty of good humans in the world?  Do they have to?  Do they have to to be fair minded?  95% of the people I know are Christian.  Are you assuming because I don't follow every statement about Christian terrorist extremists with "and most Christians, while they don't actively condemn Christian terrorist extremists, are perfectly fine people" that I think 95% of the people I know are Christian terrorist extremists?  I'd even lay what little money I have on a bet that less than one percent of American Christians would kill a gay person for being homosexual, given the opportunity.  

Now, I'd never make the same bet about Ugandan Christians.  There surely are some Ugandan Christians fighting against the Christian terrorist extremists in charge of the government but I'd bet that far, far more than one percent of Ugandan Christians would kill a homosexual person, given the opportunity.

If you aren't one of the Christian terrorist extremists then why are you offended when people call out the Christian terrorist extremists?  Why aren't YOU offended by the Christian terrorist extremists making a mockery of your "religion of peace"?  Why aren't YOU offended by the American Christian terrorist extremists that went to Uganda and give a big thumbs up to killing gays?

You see, every one of the Christian people I know (which is, again, 95% of the people I know irl - I live in a very red part of a blue state - and only one person that I know currently irl is an atheist) actively disapproves of Christian terrorism and religion run governments.  They are able to see why we should protest murdering gay people.  They protest against and about it.

Speaking of intellectual dishonesty - where are your atheist examples that I asked for?  You insisted that atheists are killing gays too.  I'll gladly protest against those current violent acts against homosexuals by atheists and those atheists performing sometimes fatal exorcisms on children or corrective rape against lesbians.  You don't know of any organized group of atheists either running a government that is doing these things or any organized group of atheists trying to get gay execution into the lawbooks or any organized group of atheists performing sometimes fatal exorcisms or corrective rapes - because they don't exist.

Word.

Kylyssa, what I'm trying to say is...

My sense from reading this thread, and many other similar ones on atheist forums, is that the only reason many are interested in stories like this at all is because it involves theists in the role of bad guy.

The concern for gays rings hollow here, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody but theists involved, we wouldn't be talking about it.

To the degree you are actually concerned about gays, I share your concern.  Half my family is gay.  To the degree you are looking for yet another way to hate theists, I am uncomfortable, as it reminds me too much of how folks rationalize hating gays.

Suppose gays were running a government and proposing killing theists.  Would you still be outraged?    Would this thread still be popping?   Personally, my guess is no.

Quote from: "Typist"Kylyssa, what I'm trying to say is...

My sense from reading this thread, and many other similar ones on atheist forums, is that the only reason many are interested in stories like this at all is because it involves theists in the role of bad guy.

The concern for gays rings hollow here, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody but theists involved, we wouldn't be talking about it.

To the degree you are actually concerned about gays, I share your concern.  Half my family is gay.  To the degree you are looking for yet another way to hate theists, I am uncomfortable, as it reminds me too much of how folks rationalize hating gays.

Suppose gays were running a government and proposing killing theists.  Would you still be outraged?    Would this thread still be popping?   Personally, my guess is no.

My 'sense' from your posts is that you don't care about gay people at all.  You only want to defend theists, even if it means ignoring the influence of theists in regard to this legislature.  My sense is just as valid/invalid as your sense.

I don't need to name drop a half gay family in order to try to prove to someone that I'm concerned about gay people.  I am.  Your baseless presumptions are incorrect.  Find a fitting example for your argument and make a new post.  Your argument fails entirely in this context because your argument asks us to ignore the heavy influence that theists have had in passing this legislature and instead use this post as an example of atheists irrationally hating theism/theists.  You're ignoring the content for the sake of your argument.

I'm not saying all theists are the same, I'm not saying all theists want to kill gays, and I'm not saying all theists support this legislature.  

I'm stating the fact that this legislature was proposed by and is heavily supported by people who are theists and my reaction to that is not only is that horrible, but it seems like killing sick people isn't something that Jesus would do or condone, gay or not.

Hi Pinkocommie, thanks for the conversation we're not having because you simply don't care, and I'm not worth reading or replying to.   Is there anything else you'd like to not say?    

Quote from: "Typist"Hi Pinkocommie, thanks for the conversation we're not having because you simply don't care, and I'm not worth reading or replying to.   Is there anything else you'd like to not say?    :D

Hi again Pinko,

Ok, a new idea!  How about we be honest, and drop all pretense of talking about a real subject, so we can focus on doing what we really want to do.    I'll go first, and then you join in, ok?

Ok, here we go...

You, you, why you, sputter, you Pinkocommie you!   Ha!  Take that!

Ok, your turn.

Ready, go!

Quote from: "Typist"Hi again Pinko,

Ok, a new idea!  How about we be honest, and drop all pretense of talking about a real subject, so we can focus on doing what we really want to do.    I'll go first, and then you join in, ok?

Ok, here we go...

You, you, why you, sputter, you Pinkocommie you!   Ha!  Take that!

Ok, your turn.

Ready, go!

Aww, looks like lonely troll is lonely.   :)

Quote from: "pinkocommie"Aww, looks like lonely troll is lonely.   :-)   Do we have Sense Deficit Syndrome???   Pathetic Posing Disease?    Snotty Potty Mouth Morbidity??

QuoteYou can't passive aggressively insult someone and then act like you're the victim of unfounded aggression.  Well, I suppose you can, but that would be, dare I say, intellectually dishonest.  

I'm not a victim of anything or anybody, in regards to Net forums.  Well, sometimes I'm the victim of myself, gotta admit to that.

And now, time for a word from our sponsors...

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Quote from: "Typist"Kylyssa, what I'm trying to say is...

My sense from reading this thread, and many other similar ones on atheist forums, is that the only reason many are interested in stories like this at all is because it involves theists in the role of bad guy.

The concern for gays rings hollow here, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody but theists involved, we wouldn't be talking about it.

To the degree you are actually concerned about gays, I share your concern.  Half my family is gay.  To the degree you are looking for yet another way to hate theists, I am uncomfortable, as it reminds me too much of how folks rationalize hating gays.

Suppose gays were running a government and proposing killing theists.  Would you still be outraged?    Would this thread still be popping?   Personally, my guess is no.

So my concern for homosexual people rings hollow?  When I've taken in about a dozen homeless homosexual teens and young adults into my home - my concern for homosexuals is just a ploy?  They were all but one theists.  I cared for them as people.  I took them in because no one else would.  I took them in because they were frightened, suffering human beings in need and there's a powerful injustice to parents discarding their children just because of their sexual orientation, a thing beyond their control.

My concern for homosexuals rings hollow?  When I've worked with homeless homosexuals most of my adult life and when I've been an activist for gay rights?

And yes, I'd be just as fucking outraged, horrified and disgusted if a gay run country was rounding up theists to kill.

I also took in other homeless teens.  One of them was homeless because he became a Christian.  His parents were Muslim and disowned him for converting.  I took in Pagan kids whose parents disowned them for converting from Christianity.

But here's the big bit, one you will scream and plug your ears to deny and hate me for saying - the homeless homosexual teens and young adults I took in, the homeless converted to Christian teen, the Pagan homeless teens, and the girl whose parents suspected of having pre-marital sex all lost their homes due to their parents religious beliefs.  Here.  In America.

I don't hate theists in general - those kids were, as I said, all but one theists and I took them in, accepted them and gave them love.  I even arranged for some of them to go to church, either paying their bus fare, driving them when I had a car, or arranging for them to get rides.  My partner is a fluctuating agnostic/deist/theist and I love him to bits.  My roommate is Catholic and I love her dearly.  All but one of my friends irl are either theists (the vast majority) or deists.  Only one friend (actually more of an acquaintance, he's my partner's producer) irl is an atheist.

Quote from: "Typist"The concern for gays rings hollow here, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody but theists involved, we wouldn't be talking about it.

Have you ever considered that the overwhelming and vast majority of vicious, anti-gay legislation and activity is religiously inspired?  The percentage of non-theists that actively hate homosexuals like that is extremely tiny.  

Most hate groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, white supremacist groups, etc are religion based.  

Did you happen to notice that some churches hate gays so much that they are almost bankrupting themselves to fight equal marriage?  

A homophobic atheist is even more rare to find than a gay Republican.  A homophobic atheist is even more rare to find than an atheist Republican.  We don't have any holy books telling us that certain people are an abomination and must die.  That's where people get that idea - from their religion.

Kylyssa, you're making my points better than I can, so I'll leave you to it.

Quote from: "Typist"Kylyssa, you're making my points better than I can, so I'll leave you to it.

Religious beliefs cause the vast majority of homophobia.  It is a fact.  Otherwise - point to the homophobic atheist groups you know.  You keep pretending that question isn't being asked.  Why not just admit that the vast majority of anti-gay groups are based on Abrahamic religions whose holy books require the death of homosexuals?  

I hate homophobia.  I hate people who kill and harm people whatever the reason - and so should you.  But you don't.  You waste your breath hating atheists that hate religious violence.  

I'm making your point that atheists only talk about murders and violence against homosexuals by Christian groups because they want to speak badly of Christians?  Obviously spending half my life taking in homeless homosexual kids was a giant setup just so I could post mean things about Christians in Happy Atheist Forum.  I care about violence against homosexuals because I'm human.  The only reason a person wouldn't care about violence against other human beings is because they've been conditioned not to.

So my desire to prevent kids from dying on the street or getting ass-raped again is motivated by hatred of Christians?  Then please explain why most of them were Christians that I took to their Christian churches when they desired?  

Go talk to your half homosexual family and ask them if anyone has ever brought up the Bible to them.  Ask if they would feel comfortable in Westboro Baptist Church or in a fundamentalist Christian church.  Ask them if they think it's wrong to protest the anti-homosexual legislation in Uganda because it's mean to Christians to do so.

Actually, most of the gay members of our family here are pretty religious.   One of them attends Catholic mass every day, for decades.   My apologies that they don't fit your stereotypes.  

QuoteReligious beliefs cause the vast majority of homophobia.

Right, I understand your point.   You're made it well and repeatedly.   Apologies, but you are simply wrong.  

Fear of sex, and the need to find a group to hate and be superior to, are the drivers.   This is a human problem, not a theist problem specifically.  Yes, many theists are involved in this, because they are the largest group of people on the planet.  

Here's a suggestion of how we might come together.

If we're going to hate a group, let's hate people who do violence to others.  And let's hate them because of their violent action, not because of their race, gender, nationality, religion or non-religion etc.

If you wish to conduct a holy war against Ugandan law makers on that basis, I'll join, and salute your leadership.

Quote from: "Typist"Actually, most of the gay members of our family here are pretty religious.   One of them attends Catholic mass every day, for decades.   My apologies that they don't fit your stereotypes.  

Where did I say that homosexuals aren't religious?  Read the above posts and you'll see where I described all but one of the kids I took in as theists (and he wasn't homosexual) and spoke of taking some of them to church.

So your gay family members are completely unafraid of Christian fundamentalists such as people in the Westboro Baptist Church?  They'd be completely comfortable being out in a young earth creationist church in the South, right?

QuoteGo talk to your half homosexual family and ask them if anyone has ever brought up the Bible to them.

To which my answer was yes.  By the way, we live in the south.  

You want to hate theists (no matter how you want to spin it).  You have a right to do this.  I'm declining to join you, that's all.

I will join you in hating violent people, and offered that above, but you walked on by the invite.

Because it's not violence that is really bothering you, but theism.

Quote from: "Typist"

QuoteReligious beliefs cause the vast majority of homophobia.

Right, I understand your point.   You're made it well and repeatedly.   Apologies, but you are simply wrong.  

Fear of sex, and the need to find a group to hate and be superior to, are the drivers.   This is a human problem, not a theist problem specifically.  Yes, many theists are involved in this, because they are the largest group of people on the planet.  

So you are saying that the fact that the Bible, the Torah and the Koran all contain statements condemning homosexuality has no impact on people becoming homophobic?  You are saying that pastors, priests, and Imams that preach against homosexuality have nothing to do with homophobia?

Theists are involved in it out of proportion to their number in the population.  They also quote from the homophobic statements in the Bible to support their anti-gay stance.

No, homophobia is not the natural human state and neither is fear of sex.  

Again, name the atheist run anti-gay hate groups you know of.

Most people are religious but most people aren't homophobic but most homophobic people are religious out of proportion to their percentage in the general population.  Let me try to explain this - if one in ten people are atheists, then shouldn't one in ten homophobes be atheists if your thesis that homophobia is condition of being human rather than of being a member of a religion that condemns homosexuality?

One in ten homophobes are not atheists.  One in ten homophobes aren't Pagans or Buddhists, either.    That's because they have no anti-homosexual teachings.

Quote from: "Typist"

QuoteGo talk to your half homosexual family and ask them if anyone has ever brought up the Bible to them.

To which my answer was yes.  By the way, we live in the south.  

You want to hate theists (no matter how you want to spin it).  You have a right to do this.  I'm declining to join you, that's all.

I will join you in hating violent people, and offered that above, but you walked on by the invite.

Because it's not violence that is really bothering you, but theism.

I hate theistic violence.  You deny its existence.  That is what's upsetting.  Your religious book calls for anti-homosexual violence and people do it - and you and others like you pretend that the calls in religious books to kill homosexuals don't exist.  You deny the existence of Christian inspired violence.

It's violence that bothers me.  And it's so damned frustrating that the violence could be ended if the people who were doing it for their God would just stop believing in that God.  They could just stop doing what this fantasy book tells them to do and the people they are hurting - they would have no reason to hurt them anymore.

The people in Uganda are trying to kill homosexuals because their religious beliefs say it's right to kill homosexuals - if they'd stop having that belief, they wouldn't want to kill homosexuals anymore.

Why don't you understand why people despise a belief that asks someone to hurt someone else?  Your Bible supports anti-homosexual acts.  These people follow that belief.

Ok, let's return to the top, and reread the article that has launched your holy war.

QuoteThe Washington Post wrote:KAMPALA, UGANDA -- A Ugandan lawmaker refused Friday to withdraw proposed legislation that would impose the death penalty for some gay men and lesbians despite international condemnation and presidential opposition to a measure that some critics said could scare off foreign investors.

A single lawmaker has proposed an idiot law.   Phew, good thing that has never happened here in the U.S!!  

QuoteLawmaker David Bahati said he will not heed a call late Thursday from the government to drop the proposed bill, which has provoked criticism from gay rights groups and protests in London, New York and Washington.

The government of Uganda asked him to drop the bill.

Quote"We have our children in schools to protect against being recruited into" homosexuality, Bahati said. "The process of legislating a law to protect our children against homosexuality and defending our family values must go on." The country's parliament is expected to debate the measure in late February or early March.

The idiot lawmaker makes generalized hysterical statements about all homosexuals, much the way some atheists make generalized hysterical statements about all theists.

QuoteAlthough President Yoweri Museveni has told colleagues that he believes the bill is too harsh and has encouraged his ruling National Resistance Movement Party to overturn the death sentence provision, Information Minister Kabakumba Matsiko said the parliament will act independently.

The President of Uganda is on the record against the bill.

QuoteSeveral lawmakers and officials from the ruling party said this week that they will push to remove the death penalty statute. They have proposed instead that gays receive counseling to convert them to heterosexuality.

Lawmakers in the ruling party wish to replace the death penalty stuff with counseling.  

QuoteLawmakers outlawed gay marriage in 2005.

It's been outlawed here since the beginning of time..

QuoteThe proposed legislation is being promoted as an update to Uganda's statutes against homosexuality, which date from the 1950s and do not address homosexuality by name, only by what the law terms as "unnatural offenses" and "gross indecency." The draft bill says anyone convicted of a homosexual act could face life imprisonment.

Draft bills say all kinds of things, in every country, on every subject.

QuoteCurrent legislation imposes seven years in prison.

Not so different than what our laws said, not so long ago.

QuoteUnder the new law, the death sentence could apply to sexually active gays living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. The law would also include Ugandans living abroad, who could be extradited and punished.

Under the new law, being proposed by one person in a small country somewhere in the world.

No mention of theists or religion anywhere in the article.

Thus, the above discussion which focused on theism, is shown to be hate based hysteria.

QuoteUnder the new law, being proposed by one person in a small country somewhere in the world.

No mention of theists or religion anywhere in the article.

Thus, the above discussion which focused on theism, is shown to be hate based hysteria.

According to journalist Sharlet, Bahati is a core member of The Family, described by prominent evangelical Christians who is one of the most politically well-connected fundamentalist organizations in the US.

QuoteCurrent legislation imposes seven years in prison.

actually the bill covers "gay sex" with minor children, disabled people, and ect. id rather see someone get 7 years for this as opposed to killing them. well maybe kill the child toucher... nah, lock them up for  longer than 7 years.

QuoteIt's been outlawed here since the beginning of time..

Lol i must be fighsty today... america wasnt here in the beginning of time. nor was any of these countries... i almost deleted this because i know it makes no difference... but, i like to argue.

QuoteUgandan Pastor, and Rick Warren's right hand man, Martin Ssempa really hates gay people since he's one of the unapologetic driving forces behind the "Kill the Gays" bill.  But he sure seems to love gay porn.

I wrote about his last public showing of porn in January, where he call a press conference to show scatological fetish porn that ended up driving people out of the room and backfired on him. Looks like he hasn't really learned his lesson. After police blocked his Million Man "Kill the Gays" March, Ssempa held another of his special screenings in a Kampala church:

The screening was attended by around 300 supporters crammed into an evangelical church in the Ugandan capital after plans for a 'million-man march' were thwarted by police. 'We had planned to have a million-man and -woman march in Kampala but unfortunately we were told that we could not march because of security concerns," Martin Ssempa told the crowd. 'The major argument homosexuals have is that what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is nobody's business but do you know what they do in their bedrooms?,' the pastor asked. Ssempa then displayed a slide show of gay pornographic pictures. 'This one is eating another man's penis,' the pastor said, before going into even more graphic descriptions. 'Is this what Obama wants to bring to Africa?' he said, following fierce US criticism of a Ugandan bill drafted last year that would further criminalise homosexuality.

As I covered in previous blogs, Ssempa is a man with deep ties to American Evangelicalism.

He is not only pals with Rick Warren, but also has connections with the secretive political religious group "The Family", whose C Street House has been the focus of controversy after Mark Sanford and John Ensign's extra-marital affairs and who host the National Prayer Breakfast every year.

This is fundamentalism exported directly from our shores. Like "Porno Pete" LaBarbera, he uses a playbook created by the anti-gay forces here in the US: show gay men as depraved, evil, sick perverts who deserve to be imprisoned or put to death.

Andy Towle from Towleroad found a great quote from Kathleen Parker in the Washington Post saying that Warren should be more involved in stifling the dangerous Ugandan situtation. It applies to all of the Evangelical Fundies exporting anti-LGBT hate from our shores:

It may not be Warren's personal calling to comment on 'political process.' But is neutrality really an option for one of the world's most powerful Christian leaders when state genocide of a minority is proposed in the name of Christianity? If we decide that genocide is too political for interference, then what good is moral leadership?...The proposed law is a case study in the unintended consequences of moral colonialism.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I do wonder, however, if this will start another outpouring of hate mail & comments like my last post on Ssempa did. If so, I think Parker's quote above is the perfect answer to any of them.

Julian Pepe, the leader of gay and lesbian rights group Sexual Minorities Uganda, brought this little bit of hypocrisy on the part of Ssempa to light:

He (Pastor Martin Ssempa) should be arrested because he is promoting pornography. The fact that he showed this film to people below 18 years means he has committed a crime.

That's quite the moral authority, Pastor Ssempa- showing porn to underage kids in church.  Loopholes in the Bill?

This comes on the heels of news from Truth Wins Out that a loophole may allow Uganda to execute anyone 'related' to homosexuals:

  The wording of the legislation allows Uganda to execute anyone found guilty of repeat offences involving homosexuality "or related offences" which include speaking out in defense of tolerance, or being a relative, pastor or doctor of a homosexual and refusing to report that person to the authorities for execution.

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/02/uganda_ ... or_sse.php (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/02/uganda_be_kidding_me_more_gay_porn_from_pastor_sse.php)

I suppose this author and the people quoted in the article don't really care about gay people either, they just hate theists.

If you couldn't somehow tie this story to theists, it wouldn't interest you.

Quote from: "Typist"If you couldn't somehow tie this story to theists, it wouldn't interest you.

So my motivations aren't what they actually are but what you want them to be, because if my motivations are what you want them to be, it allows for you to make your point.

Let's try some math.

Something like half the people in the world are theists of one flavor or another.  

So, when you find some individual theists who are idiots, you have demonstrated nothing about theism in general.  

Here's why.  

A fair percentage of all the people in the world are idiots.

There are lots of theist idiots, for the simple reason there are lots of theists.   This fact proves nothing about theism.  

If you want to promote logic as alternative to theism, use logic to make your points, not hysterical hate speech.

If you want to make a general statement about theists as compared to some other group, you would have to share real data that shows how theists as a group are somehow less civilized than some other group of people.

At least a couple billion theists.   Of many different types.  Good luck.

Here, try this.

Right now, as we speak, there are surely some individual jews, blacks and gays somewhere in the world who are doing something entirely reprehensible.   Taking this fact, and whipping it up in to anything resembling a general statement about jews, blacks or gays, is....

... ignorant hate speech.

Not logic, but the emotional need to pretend superiority to some group of "others".  

The very same process that has afflicted gays for centuries.

Quote from: "Typist"Let's try some math.

Something like half the people in the world are theists of one flavor or another.  

So, when you find some individual theists who are idiots, you have demonstrated nothing about theism in general.  

Here's why.  

A fair percentage of all the people in the world are idiots.

There are lots of theist idiots, for the simple reason there are lots of theists.   This fact proves nothing about theism.  

If you want to promote logic as alternative to theism, use logic to make your points, not hysterical hate speech.

If you want to make a general statement about theists as compared to some other group, you would have to share real data that shows how theists as a group are somehow less civilized than some other group of people.

At least a couple billion theists.   Of many different types.  Good luck.

Here, try this.

Right now, as we speak, there are surely some individual jews, blacks and gays somewhere in the world who are doing something entirely reprehensible.   Taking this fact, and whipping it up in to anything resembling a general statement about jews, blacks or gays, is....

... ignorant hate speech.

Not logic, but the emotional need to pretend superiority to some group of "others".  

The very same process that has afflicted gays for centuries.

Did I make any comments about theists in general?  I must have not been clear, because that wasn't my intent.

Honestly, I'm not that concerned about you.   I just mean, it's not really you I'm debating.  

You seem young.  You seem more intelligent than I was when I was young.   You're getting married!  Forget me, and go have a great life.

What I'm really debating, what interests me, is a pattern across many forums where we do this identify a group to hate thing.  The larger a group is, the less useful any generalization will be.   I don't care if it's gays, blacks, jews, theists etc.   That process is a bad plan.

Which is why I hate all atheists, because they all do this.  

Irony, joke, just kidding!!!

QuoteThere are lots of theist idiots, for the simple reason there are lots of theists.

QuoteChicken. Egg. Whatever.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! i love it.

QuoteWhat I'm really debating, what interests me, is a pattern across many forums where we do this identify a group to hate thing. The larger a group is, the less useful any generalization will be. I don't care if it's gays, blacks, jews, theists etc. That process is a bad plan.

i know what you are getting at, but i dont agree. yes there is theist bashing here and at any theist type forum there will be atheist bashing. just as if i go to a army post i will be bashed and picked on and told my branch of service is a lesser wussier branch.
i see this as the same. many theist post here and are great contributors. others are crackpots, rude, preachy, or whatever. if i go to a christian forum and i am polite for the most part i will be well received by the majority. some will dismiss me as the actual devil come to lure away children (true story) with the internet... that is apparently the devils new play ground.

but back to my point.
i dont think its hate that makes us argue, disagree, or debate. i dont think its that shallow rather than similar interest in similar subjects, only with tremendously different points of views.
they say that religion is the #1 subject to start a heated argument. i dont know why... but i would have to agree with it.

QuoteThe larger a group is, the less useful any generalization will be.

i agree 1,000,000%
i will knock myself though. i see everyone as individuals. i also realize there are thousands of sects of christianity that are all different, but i seem to sometimes group them into one lump of theists.

Sorry G-Roll, I deleted my post after I saw I had been posted over. In light of Typist's....toning it down, I felt it would be unfair to completely slam his post the way I did. I'd hoped to take it down before it was read.

<----See? Exercises self-control!  

It was fun to vent, though! I guess I should have saved it just for laughs.

Quote from: "Typist"What I'm really debating, what interests me, is a pattern across many forums where we do this identify a group to hate thing.

The whole reason I joined this forum was because I sought out one that was friendlier. I had been a long-time member on another atheist message board that was shut down during my long absence (still don't know what happened) and I joined a different one. Well, before long, I noticed that most of the people doing most of the posting - theists and atheists alike  - were....well...assholes. Administrator included. Not even just as an "us vs. them", "atheist vs. theist" kind of thing. They were the same way with each other. Some equal opportunity hate going on over there. I'd had enough of it after a while and missed the sense of community, so I looked into a few others and finally came across HAF (damn, why didn't I put all this in my intro?)

Anyway, in my experience, most of the people on any forum hate somebody and make a career out of letting everyone know it as often as possible.

Personally, I'm not into hating anyone; I'm just a smartass.

Quote from: "Typist"Honestly, I'm not that concerned about you.   I just mean, it's not really you I'm debating.  

You seem young.  You seem more intelligent than I was when I was young.   You're getting married!  Forget me, and go have a great life.

What I'm really debating, what interests me, is a pattern across many forums where we do this identify a group to hate thing.  The larger a group is, the less useful any generalization will be.   I don't care if it's gays, blacks, jews, theists etc.   That process is a bad plan.

Which is why I hate all atheists, because they all do this.  

Irony, joke, just kidding!!!

The reason I kept responding wasn't because I disagree with or don't understand your point.  It made me extremely defensive to be painted as some hateful person using an atrocity against gay people as an excuse to hate theists.  For you to now say that you're not really concerned about my actual motivations, it would seem that you just made me into a hateful person in order to prove your point, and that leaves me feeling frustrated and suspicious as to what other fabrications you might feel justified presenting as fact in order to initialize/further your own arguments.  

I understand now that your remarks weren't intended to be personal, but you still specifically used me as your example of a hateful person and my post as an example of hateful thinking.  So it may not have been personal to you, but you made it personal for me in order to establish a reason to make your point.  

And...and...that sucks!  But I get it, you don't care, your focus is the point, not the people you insult or falsely represent in order to make the point.

Anyway.  Yeah.  Hello Killy Stormtrooper.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv23%2Fpinkocommie%2Fhellokittystarwars.jpg&hash=7aadf7435724873cb5b33c143b5eb263efd0d022)

Quote from: "Typist"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Sure, only some theists are obsessed with homosexuality - but they're killing people!  Human beings dead

Are you interested in theists, or in gays?   If the later, then you'll give just as big a speech when atheists kill gays.   Have you done so?  Can you provide the link?

As best I can recall, we're well in to this thread now, and so far nobody has shown any concern for events where atheists kill gays.  

That's why it seems reasonable to offer the theory that posters aren't actually all that interested in gays, but are just grabbing yet another chance to hate theists.   Honestly, let's not drift in to the same generalizing mindsets that allow people to rationalize actions like the Ugandans are taking.  Ok?

Find me a case where a gay person was killed by someone specifically because of the non-belief in a deity. If you can, you win teh interwebz.

The point is, many atheists have killed gay people in the past due to one prejudice or another. There's a lot of atheists in Jamaica, which just happens to be one of the most dangerous places in the world to be openly gay. Of course, it is horrendous, barbaric and deplorable but that does NOT mean atheists killed gay people because atheism told them to. They did it due to other prejudicial factors which have nothing to do with the non-belief in a deity. Yes, these people should be punished just as hard as the theists who've committed such atrocities.

Had there been a country in the world who's laws were being amended to include the death penalty for homosexuality IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM then I'd be at the forefront of this thread showing my utter contempt and disdain at such a thing. As it stands, the current situation in Uganda doesn't really surprise me. The warping tendencies of religion have proven time and time again how adept it is at fucking up peoples minds to the point where they feel obliged to kill those with different lifestyle choices.

Quote from: "Typist"Kylyssa, what I'm trying to say is...

My sense from reading this thread, and many other similar ones on atheist forums, is that the only reason many are interested in stories like this at all is because it involves theists in the role of bad guy.

The concern for gays rings hollow here, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody but theists involved, we wouldn't be talking about it.

To the degree you are actually concerned about gays, I share your concern.  Half my family is gay.  To the degree you are looking for yet another way to hate theists, I am uncomfortable, as it reminds me too much of how folks rationalize hating gays.

Suppose gays were running a government and proposing killing theists.  Would you still be outraged?    Would this thread still be popping?   Personally, my guess is no.

That's because in many, many cases THEISTS ARE THE FUCKING BAD GUYS... I've become more and more offended by your comments in this thread because you seem to be labelling us as people who have a selective moral compass when it comes to the importance of human life. All human life is important.

Your parallels are deeply flawed and your logic quite off the mark. I'm getting the feeling you're being deliberately contentious just for the hell of it. If that's the case, i wash my hands of this thread.

Oh, and if there were people creating laws to kill gays in the name of atheism, i'd be shouting louder than this and i'd make several threads. There's an obvious absence of those threads, though, because that situation does not exist...  So, that should blow a mortar-sized hole in your prediction that we wouldn't be outraged. I'm outraged that you'd consider me shallow enough to not be outraged by such a thing.

Quote from: "Typist"Kylyssa, you're making my points better than I can, so I'll leave you to it.

Theist troll. I thought something was off about you.

Quote from: "karadan"That's because in many, many cases THEISTS ARE THE FUCKING BAD GUYS...

And that is true, because theists are possibly the largest group of people on earth.

As example, there are a billion+ Chinese.  

Thus "in many many cases Chinese are fucking bad guys", is a perfectly true statement.  

Which tells us NOTHING about Chinese people as a group compared to other groups of people.  

I'm not defending theists.   I'm defending logic.

Quote from: "Typist"

Quote from: "karadan"That's because in many, many cases THEISTS ARE THE FUCKING BAD GUYS...

And that is true, because theists are possibly the largest group of people on earth.

As example, there are a billion+ Chinese.  

Thus "in many many cases Chinese are fucking bad guys", is a perfectly true statement.  

Which tells us NOTHING about Chinese people as a group compared to other groups of people.  

I'm not defending theists.   I'm defending logic.

No... It is true because they follow a doctrine which teaches them to be mistrustful and hate those of a different belief system. Because of this, it makes some people feel they have the 'god-given' right to be really fucking horrible to other humans. It has nothing to do with numbers. The chrstian doctrine just happens to have enveloped more people than any other theistic category.

I'm still quite convinced you are a christian troll masquerading as an atheist.

Quote from: "karadan"No... It is true because they follow a doctrine which teaches them to be mistrustful and hate those of a different belief system.

It is true that, out of 2 or 3 billion theists, there are some that fit your description.

It is also true, a fact which is documented in print on any of the leading atheist forums, that SOME atheists have a blind irrational hatred of all theists, billions of individual people they have never met, and know nothing about.

What does this data tell us?

In any group of people, there are individuals who have abandoned logic for emotion.

Sure, there are some atheists who hate all people who follow some sort of religion. I'm not one of them. If i were, i'd hate my housemate who is a christian. It is quite the opposite, actually. But, you seem to be happy to lump those atheists in with the theists who'd have people killed because of a sexual preference. That is not logic, that is just plain odd.

You haven't had the decency in this thread to answer any of the most relevant points put forward by Kylyssa, Pinco or myself. What does that say about you?

You seem to have abandoned logic for trolling.

Quote from: "karadan"Sure, there are some atheists who hate all people who follow some sort of religion. I'm not one of them.

And nobody said you were.

QuoteYou haven't had the decency in this thread to answer any of the most relevant points put forward by Kylyssa, Pinco or myself. What does that say about you?

Hmm....  

It seems, if anything, I've been overly generous with replies in this thread.  

You're making your points, I'm making mine.  

I'm not accusing you of being a troll for making your points.  

You are accusing me of being a troll for making my points.