Happy Atheist Forum

I've been a lurking around this wonderful site for sometime now and today I finally decided to create an account as I need some help.  

One of my dearest friends is on the cusp of atheism and skepticism but there are a few beliefs she is unwilling to part with.  I have spend countless hours trying to share the information I have learned about the natural world and how physics works but I am a Psychology/Criminology Major who's only knowledge of psychics, geology, chemistry etc. is from the books I enjoy reading for pleasure.  Therefore I am not the best person to convince/teach her these things.  

There are two subjects in particular that I was hoping someone could help me with:

*The age of the earth and universe
*The stars you see in the sky at night are actually suns like our own and can orbiting planets of their own

My friend does not believe me when I tell her the earth has been proven to be millions of years old or any of the information I give her about the universe.  Even though she is not religious, she still believes the earth is very young.  It is frustrating for me to say the least!

I have scoured the internet looking for *simple* explanations to these two proven facts.  I have yet to find an article or website that spells out the info I'm looking for in plain, easy to understand in layman's terms.

Any help or suggestions would be very appreciated!

~Cathleen

This might help:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html)

I'd help out more myself but I have to go to work.

Thank you Squid, any help is greatly appreciated.  I did come across that article on my own search for info but I thought it might be too complicated for my friend and that she would stop reading after the first paragraph.  She's rather stubborn!  It did help me understand the subject better though.  

I wish I could get my hands on a "The Age of the Earth for Dummies" book!

Thanks again

Quote from: "I Cathicus"Thank you Squid, any help is greatly appreciated.  I did come across that article on my own search for info but I thought it might be too complicated for my friend and that she would stop reading after the first paragraph.  She's rather stubborn!  It did help me understand the subject better though.  

I wish I could get my hands on a "The Age of the Earth for Dummies" book!

Thanks again

Well, you need to let her know the inability to understand something does not prove it wrong. It just proves that the person has an inibility to understand something.
Ask your friend to watch the below video and ask her to really listen to the words and try to understand what is being said. Then show her the way scientists determine the rate at which the universe is expanding and how that is applied to the general age of the universe (can be found on wikipedia).

[youtube:29v2nmzo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9XntsSEro[/youtube:29v2nmzo]

Some people simply do not want to learn more about reality. If clutching onto ideas that the Earth is 6000 years old gives her comfort, then maybe it shouldn't be interfered with. That's up to you to decide, though.

Quote from: "I Cathicus"I wish I could get my hands on a "The Age of the Earth for Dummies" book!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi647.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu198%2FRamblingSyd%2FDummies.jpg&hash=486cc42191b2db18c64721c23d1c331fe85f8a5d)

You should rent some old Sagan shows about the universe and have her watch them.  They are easy to understand and point out how beauty can be found within these processes in a manner that both theists and atheists can appreciate.

I'm not sure her being informed of the age of the universe and how we know it is old is going to make her an atheist though if she is already not religious; there are probably other reasons she believes in a god and I'm not really sure it matters if someone is an atheist or not as long as they are informed and thinking for themselves.

Quote from: "OldGit"

Quote from: "I Cathicus"I wish I could get my hands on a "The Age of the Earth for Dummies" book!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi647.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu198%2FRamblingSyd%2FDummies.jpg&hash=486cc42191b2db18c64721c23d1c331fe85f8a5d)

That's awesome - love it! Now I'm going to go make up some other dummy covers

Quote from: "karaden"Well, you need to let her know the inability to understand something does not prove it wrong. It just proves that the person has an inibility to understand something.
Ask your friend to watch the below video and ask her to really listen to the words and try to understand what is being said. Then show her the way scientists determine the rate at which the universe is expanding and how that is applied to the general age of the universe (can be found on wikipedia).

Thank you karaden, I will show her that video and I will talk your advice on what to say to her.  

Quote from: "Whitney"You should rent some old Sagan shows about the universe and have her watch them.  They are easy to understand and point out how beauty can be found within these processes in a manner that both theists and atheists can appreciate.

I'm not sure her being informed of the age of the universe and how we know it is old is going to make her an atheist though if she is already not religious; there are probably other reasons she believes in a god and I'm not really sure it matters if someone is an atheist or not as long as they are informed and thinking for themselves.

Hi Whitney, thanks for your feedback.  Over the last two years of our friendship we've had a lot of talks about religion and other subjects related to skepticism.  She truly embraces about 95% of the skeptical stuff we talk about and I've taught her a lot about how different religions (Mormons, Scientologists etc) believe different kinds of nonsense, and such.  She honestly wants to know all about what I believe but has a very poor attention span when it comes to any kind of information containing scientific language.  She won't even watch a 5 minute youtube video if she thinks it will be scientific.  I actually own a few Sagan videos that I watch over and over because I love them dearly, but she thinks they are a huge snore-fest.  

Mainly with my help and urging my friend (who more accurately is my best friend) doesn't believe in God or almost all of the "woo" going around. I'm so proud that she has embraced so much of what I've taught her and left her beliefs in such things as psychics, astrology and ghosts behind, because she did believe all of that stuff before we starting hanging out together.

It just frustrates me so completely when she looks at me like I'm a nutcase when I tell her about the billions of stars in the galaxy and that the earth is millions of years old.  I'm afraid that she's gonna start thinking the other stuff I've told her about is bogus too.  Does that make any sense?

To sum it all up, I've just come so far in helping her see the beauty of the nature world without any of the pseudo science and religion that she used to believe and I'd just like to see her understand the awesome power of science when science is about to tell us how many potential suns and planets are in the universe or how, through many scientific methods we are now able to tell that a rock is 3.4 million years old.

You could always try it from the other direction.  What does she thing the age of the Earth is?  Why does she think this - that is, what is the basis for this belief?  Make her critical analyze her belief and see if it holds up to what science says.  You could also hit up a used book store and see if you can find a decent geology or earth science text to help out.

Quote from: "Squid"You could always try it from the other direction.  What does she thing the age of the Earth is?  Why does she think this - that is, what is the basis for this belief?  Make her critical analyze her belief and see if it holds up to what science says.  You could also hit up a used book store and see if you can find a decent geology or earth science text to help out.

That is a superb idea, Squid.  I have never thought to chance it around on her.  I'm going over to her house tonight so I'll try to casually bring it up without sounding like I'm over there to lecture her.


Thanks again to everyone who took the time to offer suggestions.  I've got several great new ideas thanks to you all!

Maybe this site will help some too:

http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/navigation/home.cfm

Have you tried the 'if you think science is so boring that you won't read or watch anything about it then why don't you just trust what I tell you I have found to be true by researching the evidence?" approach?

I realize she is your friend and all but something being boring is not an excuse to be ignorant then think everyone who actually paid attention is crazy.

Quote from: "Whitney"Have you tried the 'if you think science is so boring that you won't read or watch anything about it then why don't you just trust what I tell you I have found to be true by researching the evidence?" approach?

I realize she is your friend and all but something being boring is not an excuse to be ignorant then think everyone who actually paid attention is crazy.

The last time she gave me "that look" when I spoke of earth age etc.  I said to her "Gawd, I wish you'd just take some beginners science course and then you'd understand!"  We usually get along great but this one point is really eating at me.  

I truly love what you just suggested, Whitney, and I'm gonna print it out and put a copy in my wallet so that if I lose my nerve, I can pull it out while in the washroom, read it again and then say it to her face!

Quote from: "Squid"You could always try it from the other direction.  What does she thing the age of the Earth is?  Why does she think this - that is, what is the basis for this belief?  Make her critical analyze her belief and see if it holds up to what science says.  You could also hit up a used book store and see if you can find a decent geology or earth science text to help out.

Snake Pliskin?  

Its going to be a lost cause until you can find some way to eliminate your position from the "dead hypothesis" status your friend has given it.

Trying to convince your friend of anything that she considers "boring" means that it is up to you to learn enough about what it means that the Earth is billions of years old to make it interesting.  

Then again your friend may be trying to politely tell you than she doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

Quote from: "I Cathicus"That's awesome - love it! Now I'm going to go make up some other dummy covers

Here you go:
[attachment=0:1xwzdx81]DBCFD.png[/attachment:1xwzdx81]

http://www.signgenerator.org/books/dummies/ (http://www.signgenerator.org/books/dummies/)

Quote from: "I Cathicus"It just frustrates me so completely when she looks at me like I'm a nutcase when I tell her about the billions of stars in the galaxy and that the earth is millions of years old.

Maybe pictures and video can help....

Hubble deep space photo:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spacetoday.org%2Fimages%2FHubble%2FHubbleBeauty%2FHubbleDeepFieldSouth.jpg&hash=b5a920a42325d6dddf1fa2ca219af381cef24ee7)

Hubble Deep Field explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_deep_field

Pale Blue Dot:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kxol.com.au%2Fimages%2Fpale_blue_dot.jpg&hash=e37bbb714895639558ad49666f090b8a58a35bd9)

Pale Blue Dot Sagan Video:

[youtube:3k0c1586]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wupToqz1e2g[/youtube:3k0c1586]

Pale Blue Dot explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

Video's are always helpful.  I think in the OP it was said your friend isn't a Christian but for those who are this might be helpful ^_^

[youtube:3kv6rkep]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcQTCoY3wYQ[/youtube:3kv6rkep]

Thank you Squid, for the Pale Blue Dot vid!

Quote from: "Zyva"Thank you Squid, for the Pale Blue Dot vid!

No problemo.

Found this really amazing vid. It gives an fantastic sense of scale to the universe. I have reservations about how big the extent of Earth's radio communications boundary (70ly) is in relation to the galaxy though. It just seemed a bit too large considering our galaxy is 100000 ly across. What do you guys think?

[youtube:29pz1p5z]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U[/youtube:29pz1p5z]

QuoteThat is a superb idea, Squid. I have never thought to chance it around on her. I'm going over to her house tonight so I'll try to casually bring it up without sounding like I'm over there to lecture her.

How did it go with your friend I Cathicus?

I was thinking of a slippery way to introduce some old earth ideas that she might not view as a lecture. She doesn't by any chance have any children? I know that when I was a kid I was extremely interested in dinosaurs. And to be interested in dinos is to accept that the earth is really really old. Otherwise dinos wouldn't even exist. Maybe if she finds your science shows boring you can introduce that the earth is old by showing her some proof that there really were animals and things around before humanity. Most kids books on Dinosaurs are fun and easy to read. (Though the ones for adults can be a bit more complicated and thus... boring.) Maybe you could take her to a local museum that has some big bones/ fossils on display if you can, or perhaps plan a field trip. Maybe she actually needs to see something. It's trite but, seeing is believing.

haha.. i feel your frustration
you should tell her to watch "how the earth was made" on the history channel the first episodes..
good luck