Happy Atheist Forum

Well, I searched for this and didn't find anything similar, but if anyone has already thought of this I am sorry and give all credit to you.

My thought is this.  How can we have free will, but at the same time have an all knowing god?

If god knows everything that is going to happen in every single second of our lives, than we can't have an all knowing god and have free will at the same time, because to deviate from that course our life is going to take by using our free will would make god wrong.  But, if god is omniscient (right word?) and therefore always correct, than we cannot deviate from that course that he already knows our life is going to take.  Think of it as -- Since god is all knowing, he will know everything that will happen, and therefore we can't have free will, because every choice we will make in our life is already known by god.

Example.  If an omniscient god knew that I was going to go to school tomorrow, and then the next day, and then skip school, since he knows that that series of events is going to happen, I can't exercise free will and make a choice to go to school on the third day, unless he isn't really all knowing.

  It is kind of hard to explain, but if you think about it, I'm sure you'll get what I am trying to say.  

Although I think my logic is sound, it could be totally flawed, and if someone could point out where I went wrong I would be very thankful.

A second thought that just came to mind is that if god is all knowing, than can he himself have free will?  Using the Biblical god here, if he knew that he was going to create humans, and that he would have to wipe his first attempt out with a flood, than he couldn't make the first people  good in the first place because it would contradict what he KNEW was going to happen, and therefore contradict his omniscience.

Well, at this point I'm confusing myself, so I'll give this more time for thought and let you guys respond, too.

Thanks,
Mike M.

I don't believe in God, but I don't think this is illogical. If a supreme invisible cloud man created the universe, he probably could know everything you will do, while still letting you choose. But, I don't believe in free will either.

There is the possibility of free will in religion. Ill go with Christianity, seeming that’s the one I most familiar with. Having free will just simply means the ability to do what you choose. In Christianity you have the ability to do whatever you like. Although it is sometimes a bit warped by visions of threats and hellfire. But when you really look at it you cant blame the god for threats and ignorance of his followers… well I guess if gods, goddesses, and what not are your thing than maybe you can. But either way you can choose not to follow any of the teachings or word of god.
But if you have free will, then god can have no plan.  Without the bad things happen for a reason “plan.” You take away the god works in mysterious ways and thus are left with a god that does not participate in this world. I kind of see it as a double edge sword.

This thought process isn't new Mike sorry.  I've used it against my Christian friend before and I can't remember where I heard it from.  But it just means you are thinking.  First off I don't believe in any deity.  The god of the bible is a contradicting character and you seemed to work towards talking about it but never did.  I'm gonna start with omniscience and free will.

If you have an all knowing god then you simply can't have free will.  This is because every single action of your life is determined before you are even born.  Which to Christians (I tell them) that their god isn't already knew and determined (because he is in charge of everything he decided how my life will be before I was born) that I was gonna be an atheist and if he kills me then by your (Christian) claims he will send me to hell to be tortured forever because he already knew he didn't give me enough to go on to make me believe in him.  My actions have been determined before I was born and my choices in this world are an illusion if your god is all knowing.  I've pulled this argument out once or twice to counter the claim that Sin exists because of "free-will".

Now what you seemed to be getting to but didn't put into words is how the god of the bibles traits are incompatible.  Omniscience (all knowing) and Omnipotent (all powerful) contradict each other.  I've never got a counter argument to this before, it just seems to catch people off guard.  I ask something so simple, is your god able to change his/her mind?  If yes then he isn't all knowing (because he doesn't know when he will change his mind) and if no then he isn't all powerful.  It's self contradicting.

QuoteIf yes then he isn't all knowing (because he doesn't know when he will change his mind) and if no then he isn't all powerful. It's self contradicting.

whoa thats kinda deep, i never thought of that one.

QuoteIf you have an all knowing god then you simply can't have free will.

why? just because god knows everything you cant do what you want? yes god may know someone might grow up to be a child toucher, but unless god interferes with the said path you have the free will to continue to choose to like kiddies.
however if this all knowing being changes things or lays out paths that you will follow then no, there is no free will.

QuoteI ask something so simple, is your god able to change his/her mind? If yes then he isn't all knowing (because he doesn't know when he will change his mind) and if no then he isn't all powerful. It's self contradicting.

but if he is both all powerful and all knowing... then he wouldnt need to change his mind at all. Lol sometimes its alot easier to defend god...  

Thank you for that, LoneMateria, you basically just put what I was trying to put into words into an organized paragraph.  I don't believe in any deity either, but was rather using the Christian god as an example.  I do, though, go to a Catholic school, so will probably bring this up to the religion teacher, and see how he responds.

Another one of the contradictions in the bible that I find flabbergasting is god demanding people follow his laws, when he himself doesn't.  In the ten commandments he says, "You shall not kill", yet he kills numerous amounts of times for reasons that are just so trivial.  What happened to this all forgiving god that the Catholic Church teaches today?  I was told that no matter what I do, god would always take me back, but apparently god doesn't treat all of his children equally.

On another note, I was also taught that not only will god always forgive you, but he will never EVER abandon you.  But, in the old testament, when he tells Hosea the prophet to marry Ghomer the prostitute, it is supposed to symbolize god's relationship with Israel.  Hosea has three children with Ghomer, and names each one after a threat by God to the Israelites.  His third child, he names "Lo-Ammi" which means, "Not my children".  In this threat, he was saying that if the Israelites didn't get their act together, he was going to ABANDON them forever.  It seems to me that Catholics in particular, or maybe all christians (I don't know much about Christian branches other than Catholicism) say that the bible is the infallible word of god, but then when god seems like a total dick (in the old testament specifically) they just go "Oh that?  Don't worry about that, god loves you no matter what, even if this bible verse contradicts it."

Thanks,
Mike M.

Open theism essentially says that to a large extend, God does not know the future.

http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-open-theism/response-to-critics/

Thank you for that, although that said it was only from a Baptist council.  I was more referring to Catholicism (sorry I didn't make that very clear) because that was the religion I was/am raised in, and the one I know the most about, and therefore the one that I can find the most holes in.

Thanks,
Mike M.

Quote from: "Mike M."Thank you for that, although that said it was only from a Baptist council.  I was more referring to Catholicism (sorry I didn't make that very clear) because that was the religion I was/am raised in, and the one I know the most about, and therefore the one that I can find the most holes in.

Wait.... what?  

I didn't think that open theism is a distinctly Baptist or Catholic or Non-Catholic position.

Just went back and re-read it, thought it said was FROM a 1996 Baptist Conference, while it said it was prepared for a 1996 Baptist conference.  My bad  

BUT, back to the original subject please

Thanks,
Mike M.

Oh ok. So do you have any immediate objections to the open theism position?

Lots of fun seemed to happen while I was gone.

Quote from: "G-Roll"whoa thats kinda deep, i never thought of that one.

Not original of me either.  But it's a great thought provoker so I've kept using it.  First person I heard use it was Matt Dillahunty from The Atheist Experience (the link is in my siggie if anyone wants to check it out).

Quote from: "G-Roll"why? just because god knows everything you cant do what you want? yes god may know someone might grow up to be a child toucher, but unless god interferes with the said path you have the free will to continue to choose to like kiddies.
however if this all knowing being changes things or lays out paths that you will follow then no, there is no free will.

Right, everything has technically been orchestrated since before we were born.  In this type of system choice is an illusion since you don't decide, it has been decided you will make choice x.  There is no way for you not to make choice x thus the choice is an illusion.  It's kind of like having a criminal corner you in an ally and say, "Here's your choice, give me all your money ... or i'll shoot you and take it."  You technically have the choice to say No, but you don't have a choice in the matter, that choice is an illusion.  God does the same thing, but just on a grander scale (at least if he is omniscient).

Quote from: "G-Roll"but if he is both all powerful and all knowing... then he wouldnt need to change his mind at all. Lol sometimes its alot easier to defend god...  lol.

Quote from: "Reginus"Oh ok. So do you have any immediate objections to the open theism position?

I do  :P

Quote from: "LoneMateria"I do  :P

yep.

Fortunately this time the topic at hand is (mostly) philosophy based (instead of being based on objective evidence), so we don't have to argue about his credentials for saying that 95-98% of the NT is unchanged, or anything like that.

Quote from: "Reginus"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"I do  :P

lol true.  Though I think we would get hung up somewhere again before we could debate this.  It's in our nature

LoneMateria:

QuoteRight, everything has technically been orchestrated since before we were born. In this type of system choice is an illusion since you don't decide, it has been decided you will make choice x. There is no way for you not to make choice x thus the choice is an illusion. It's kind of like having a criminal corner you in an ally and say, "Here's your choice, give me all your money ... or i'll shoot you and take it." You technically have the choice to say No, but you don't have a choice in the matter, that choice is an illusion

now if god where to lay out a plan and you had to follow it then yes there is no free will. but if god knows all and chooses to do nothing but let you walk down the path, you do have free will. if god doesnt participate in your daily decisions nothing is there to stop you along your decision making process. so if you where headed down path x, and god knew about it and didnt do ANYTHING, whats to stop you from taking a right onto path y?  just because god knows we atheists are going to hell doeant mean he does anything to save us or influence us otherwise
basically what im trying to say is that it would be your journey, but god would ultimately know the destination... if that makes since.
just because he would be all knowing doesnt mean he would care how you turned out (obviously). and if he didnt care you would be on your own.

Quote from: "G-Roll"LoneMateria:
now if god where to lay out a plan and you had to follow it then yes there is no free will. but if god knows all and chooses to do nothing but let you walk down the path, you do have free will. if god doesnt participate in your daily decisions nothing is there to stop you along your decision making process. so if you where headed down path x, and god knew about it and didnt do ANYTHING, whats to stop you from taking a right onto path y?  just because god knows we atheists are going to hell doeant mean he does anything to save us or influence us otherwise
basically what im trying to say is that it would be your journey, but god would ultimately know the destination... if that makes since.
just because he would be all knowing doesnt mean he would care how you turned out (obviously). and if he didnt care you would be on your own.

I understand what are saying but I still don't agree with it.  Free will would still be an illusion whether or not a deity intervened.  There would still be no way for you to pick choice y when it has been determined you are going to pick choice x.  What is stopping me from choosing choice y?  Choice y is the illusion.  I may think I can take choice y but I never will, it will be choice x.  If a deity knows every time at a stop sign i'm going to make a left no matter what, then I may think I can take a right and there is nothing stopping me from turning my right blinker on and thinking i'm gonna go right, but I will never go right.  Because the knowledge is already there that I will make a left, the all knowing deity sees I will always make a left and (lets just say s/he isn't able to do anything to interfere) no matter how I perceive things I will always make that left regardless.  How is it a choice if it is determined I will always make that left?

What we're trying to say is that a god can't be omniscient at the same time that we have free will.  For him to be omniscient, he knows everything, including every moment of every second of every one of our lives.  So, because he already knows exactly how our life is going to play out, and he is all knowing, we can't possibly have the free will to do what we choose without refuting a god's omniscience.

If god knows that we are going to choose path x and god is all knowing, than we can't choose path y without refuting his omniscience.

--Mike M.

ah... the ALL KNOWING ability of the super being  
It's like the movie NEXT.
consider a god can know all the finite possibilities of an action you take.
god know what you gonna eat for dinner, it could be steak or spaghetti.
and when you take the steak, god can just say "See, I knew it's gonna happen"
and god is self correcting it's view of future by observing every single movement by everyone and everything witch god calculated before as one of the possibilities.
if we push the process forward into any point in the future, and god could still say he knew it's gonna happen as it's one of the possibility he considered.
by far, I don't see any logical flaw.
except god's knowledge has it's effective range, we cant push this ability into an infinite timeline. god must wait until his "possibility" has become "certainty" than he can make prediciton base on the certainty. question is how far can a god know?
 
yet again. if theres a super being in the universe has this cool ability, so what?

Quote from: "Mike M."What we're trying to say is that a god can't be omniscient at the same time that we have free will.  For him to be omniscient, he knows everything, including every moment of every second of every one of our lives.  So, because he already knows exactly how our life is going to play out, and he is all knowing, we can't possibly have the free will to do what we choose without refuting a god's omniscience.

If god knows that we are going to choose path x and god is all knowing, than we can't choose path y without refuting his omniscience.

--Mike M.

I do see what you and  LoneMateria are saying. The only thing I don’t get is the difference of knowing and acting upon that knowledge that the deity would posses.
If the god knew path y was in our future (a future that he did not make for us) but didn’t send us down that path how is he/she/it responsible?
Maybe another example might be if the 3 of us went to Vegas and I knew the roulette wheel was rigged. But I didn’t tell anyone and you two lost a bunch of money, then got all pissed and blamed me.
Perhaps Im discussing something else though, or I could just be out in left field... I usually find myself there any who.

Here is my problem with the whole god thing.

This god person knew I would be very certain that there was no god, and he knows he can do plenty to convince me he exists. He knows exactly what random events will and won't convince me he is real. He knows exactly how logically sound I perceive my conclusion to be. Should he allow me to live the rest of my life thinking I am right for good reasons? Then I will die. He will send me to hell knowing exactly everything he could have done to save me. He's going to send me to hell because he did not convince me he was real. The Christians will continue talking about how loving and caring he is to everyone.

He will say to me "When my loyal servants told you the message of my son Jesus Christ, did you not listen? Did you not want to live forever with me in heaven?"

And I will reply "That sounded like a good offer, but then again, so did the the warranty extension on my BMW."