Title: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: kelltrill on January 04, 2010, 09:41:28 AM
Post by: kelltrill on January 04, 2010, 09:41:28 AM
This is an interesting article I found written from a Christian perspective. It's South African current affairs, I hope it counts :P
What is wrong with not living in a Christian nation? Hasn't SA prided itself on being the Rainbow Nation since 1994? Why does the media seem to be forcing the link between Christianity and morality while totally disregarding other belief systems? "Rainbow" doesn't just mean ethnicity and race, it should also mean religious leanings. We are becoming a tolerant nation in every aspect except as it pertains to religion. Granted, small things are changing slowly. SA legalised gay marriage about 4 years ago. SA also changed the definition of rape in court to apply to the anal penetration of men, which is a huge step forward because now both men and women can both fall into the technical category of rape survivors, which I think is a great step forward in improving relations between men and women in African cultures which typically benefit the man, but not the woman.
Zuma has had an HIV/Aids conspiracy banner around his neck ever since, before he was president, he had an affair with an HIV positive woman and then said he took the necessary precautions to protect himself by taking a shower afterwards, so the fact that he has just taken a fifth wife is being looked down on in that regard very strongly, for obvious moral reasons.
However, that our president is a polygamist should not be viewed with such disdain on its own. It is part of the Zulu culture. The women he married are part of the Zulu culture and are happy to conform to traditional norms. I understand that the HIV aspect of this should not be disregarded. It is a MAJOR issue in our country at the moment, especially with Zuma being the primary leader and supposed role model for the country currently. But people seem to be disgusted with the polygamy side of things more than anything else, and that is not okay. Maybe we should focus on calling ourselves a tolerant nation before being up in arms about not being a Christian one.
What is wrong with not living in a Christian nation? Hasn't SA prided itself on being the Rainbow Nation since 1994? Why does the media seem to be forcing the link between Christianity and morality while totally disregarding other belief systems? "Rainbow" doesn't just mean ethnicity and race, it should also mean religious leanings. We are becoming a tolerant nation in every aspect except as it pertains to religion. Granted, small things are changing slowly. SA legalised gay marriage about 4 years ago. SA also changed the definition of rape in court to apply to the anal penetration of men, which is a huge step forward because now both men and women can both fall into the technical category of rape survivors, which I think is a great step forward in improving relations between men and women in African cultures which typically benefit the man, but not the woman.
Zuma has had an HIV/Aids conspiracy banner around his neck ever since, before he was president, he had an affair with an HIV positive woman and then said he took the necessary precautions to protect himself by taking a shower afterwards, so the fact that he has just taken a fifth wife is being looked down on in that regard very strongly, for obvious moral reasons.
However, that our president is a polygamist should not be viewed with such disdain on its own. It is part of the Zulu culture. The women he married are part of the Zulu culture and are happy to conform to traditional norms. I understand that the HIV aspect of this should not be disregarded. It is a MAJOR issue in our country at the moment, especially with Zuma being the primary leader and supposed role model for the country currently. But people seem to be disgusted with the polygamy side of things more than anything else, and that is not okay. Maybe we should focus on calling ourselves a tolerant nation before being up in arms about not being a Christian one.
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: G-Roll on January 04, 2010, 02:52:47 PM
Post by: G-Roll on January 04, 2010, 02:52:47 PM
QuoteMaybe we should focus on calling ourselves a tolerant nation before being up in arms about not being a Christian one.sounds good to me.
QuoteHowever, that our president is a polygamist should not be viewed with such disdain on its own.SA isnt the only country with that problem. i remember people up in arms over mit romney being a mormon.
but my main question is... does this mean the Springboks will stop kicking everyone’s ass? So maybe a northern hemisphere team (preferably not England, they have won enough) can win a Rugby World Cup?
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 04, 2010, 03:46:53 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 04, 2010, 03:46:53 PM
South Africa fascinates me. Has since I started reading Coetzee.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with living in a non-Christian country. In fact, I find it preferable. That's why I'm moving to Asia.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with living in a non-Christian country. In fact, I find it preferable. That's why I'm moving to Asia.
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: kelltrill on January 04, 2010, 09:40:37 PM
Post by: kelltrill on January 04, 2010, 09:40:37 PM
Quote from: "G-Roll"SA isnt the only country with that problem. i remember people up in arms over mit romney being a mormon.I've never really considered that. I don't even think we have mormons in SA. How do mormons reconcile polygamy with Christianity, or is it just an alternate interpretation of Christianity?
Quote from: "G-Roll"but my main question is... does this mean the Springboks will stop kicking everyone’s ass? So maybe a northern hemisphere team (preferably not England, they have won enough) can win a Rugby World Cup?
The Springboks will never stop beating everyone else into the ground. Can't stop what just comes so naturally :D[/quote]
Nice
That sounds so incredible. I really want to live in another country, primarily because I don't like the crime here, but I'm also really patriotic so trying to be okay with immigrating is actually quite difficult. I've never travelled before though (thanks to the Rand versus every other currency on the planet except perhaps for the Zimbabwean dollar up until a year ago) so I am extremely excited about next year this time when I'm finally bored with studying.
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: G-Roll on January 05, 2010, 12:59:20 AM
Post by: G-Roll on January 05, 2010, 12:59:20 AM
QuoteThe Springboks will never stop beating everyone else into the ground. Can't stop what just comes so naturally wahahahai haven’t seen that movie yet, SO DONT SPOIL IT!! after i watch it i would love to hear a SA take on it.
Has anyone seen Invictus? South African's don't know what to make of that movie.
sigh..... you are probably right. the springboks arent going to stop putting a beat down on us northern hemisphere rugby teams. did you see them beat up on the British Irish Lions?
QuoteI've never really considered that. I don't even think we have mormons in SA. How do mormons reconcile polygamy with Christianity, or is it just an alternate interpretation of Christianity?i think most people here in the US toss in the mormons with the rest of the nutters. i see them as a branch of chrisitanity, just with even more weirdness tossed in there. but no, i dont believe they are very well received over here. kinda like jehovahs witnesses.
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: AlP on January 05, 2010, 03:39:53 AM
Post by: AlP on January 05, 2010, 03:39:53 AM
Quote from: "kelltrill"I've never really considered that. I don't even think we have mormons in SA. How do mormons reconcile polygamy with Christianity, or is it just an alternate interpretation of Christianity?I work with an ex-mormon. He tells me stories
. I don't think they currently practice polygamy. I'd have to check with him to be sure though. He only had one wife when he was mormon at least. In the past... they added an entire new testament to the bible. That's considerable scope for modification of marriage.
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: Whitney on January 05, 2010, 04:02:09 AM
Post by: Whitney on January 05, 2010, 04:02:09 AM
Quote from: "kelltrill"I've never really considered that. I don't even think we have mormons in SA. How do mormons reconcile polygamy with Christianity, or is it just an alternate interpretation of Christianity?
They have the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible, so maybe there is some defense of poygamy in that. Also, I'm not sure that the Bible ever says you can't necessarily have more than on wife and many characters in the bible did have more than one.
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: kelltrill on January 05, 2010, 09:43:10 AM
Post by: kelltrill on January 05, 2010, 09:43:10 AM
Quote from: "G-Roll"i haven’t seen that movie yet, SO DONT SPOIL IT!! after i watch it i would love to hear a SA take on it.Lol, Invictus is based on fact, so if you know the story there's not much left to spoil. It's kinda like the 2012 movie. Spoiler alert: the world ends :/
sigh..... you are probably right. the springboks arent going to stop putting a beat down on us northern hemisphere rugby teams. did you see them beat up on the British Irish Lions?
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: SirMoo on January 09, 2010, 01:45:00 PM
Post by: SirMoo on January 09, 2010, 01:45:00 PM
Though this topic has been dead for a couple of days...
I spent two weeks in South Africa back in I think '07... and to me it did not seem like a "Christian" nation or at least in comparison to over here in East Texas. I stayed roughly a week in both Pretoria and Cape Town ( preferring may stay in Cape Town by a lot ) and the later seemed way more relaxed in terms of religion and homosexuality. Now I did only stay a week... in the middle of winter... But I did not get the impression of some super strict 'Godly' Nation like some of these small Texas cities tend to show.
Now I find this
It seems to him that religious tolerances and teaching should only be allowed if like minded people are teaching about the religions and how to be 'tolerant' of them. - I hate articles like this... Stupid propaganda circle. These people annoy me as much as the AFA.
On the subject of Mormonism... I have the book of Mormon sitting not 3 feet away from me. Rather strange thing if you ask me... I love how it claims to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" and "Comparable to the Bible".
Quote from: "kelltrill"She ranted, "Do you know what the news is saying? They're saying SA is no longer a Christian nation, how despicable is that? The entire world will now think we have no morals." Okay, that's not a verbatim translation, but it's close enough I reckon
I spent two weeks in South Africa back in I think '07... and to me it did not seem like a "Christian" nation or at least in comparison to over here in East Texas. I stayed roughly a week in both Pretoria and Cape Town ( preferring may stay in Cape Town by a lot ) and the later seemed way more relaxed in terms of religion and homosexuality. Now I did only stay a week... in the middle of winter... But I did not get the impression of some super strict 'Godly' Nation like some of these small Texas cities tend to show.
Now I find this
Quote from: "Article"A pastor’s daughter did not want to participate in a life skills and social science class which was teaching aspects of other religions including Islam, ancestor worship, and Buddhism.
Quote from: "Article"The family is considering taking the case before the constitutional court. Under Christian Democratic governments there has always been a tolerance for other religions so why does a curriculum for 10 year olds have to include multi-religious studies? Tolerance can easily be taught using other methods.
It seems to him that religious tolerances and teaching should only be allowed if like minded people are teaching about the religions and how to be 'tolerant' of them. - I hate articles like this... Stupid propaganda circle. These people annoy me as much as the AFA.
On the subject of Mormonism... I have the book of Mormon sitting not 3 feet away from me. Rather strange thing if you ask me... I love how it claims to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" and "Comparable to the Bible".
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: kelltrill on January 16, 2010, 02:15:47 PM
Post by: kelltrill on January 16, 2010, 02:15:47 PM
Quote from: "SirMoo"I spent two weeks in South Africa back in I think '07... and to me it did not seem like a "Christian" nation or at least in comparison to over here in East Texas. I stayed roughly a week in both Pretoria and Cape Town ( preferring may stay in Cape Town by a lot ) and the later seemed way more relaxed in terms of religion and homosexuality. Now I did only stay a week... in the middle of winter... But I did not get the impression of some super strict 'Godly' Nation like some of these small Texas cities tend to show.I suppose it's all relative. There are pockets in SA where people are still as highly Christian as in Texas (from what I hear), and the majority of white South Africans still profess to be Christian, but I agree with what you're saying nonetheless. I don't think SA was ever a Christian nation, there are really just too many religions, African, Western and Eastern, to single out a specific one. SA is not a Christian country, but a secular one. According to our constitution it recognises the right to religious freedom, though some people don't act accordingly, as can be expected.
I've never been to Pretoria myself, but Cape Town is definitely much more relaxed than Gauteng (the province Pretoria is in). Cape Town is home to the annual Mother City Queer Project and has a myriad of gay and lesbian bars and clubs. From what I've found from the rest of the country, this is not generally the norm. It's also still specific though... some suburbs in Cape Town are less tolerant to such "deviations" than others.
There are very few extremists that I've encountered though. The AWB (Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging --> Afrikaner Resistance Movement, an extremist right-wing political group in South Africa active primarily during Apartheid) is still around in places like the Free State and their extreme white Christian dominant views are still a contentious issue.
I encourage everyone reading this to please check out this link: http://www.southafrica.info/about/facts.htm (http://www.southafrica.info/about/facts.htm)
If you scroll further down there are some graphs showing the results of a census regarding race, language and religion.
Quote from: "SirMoo"It seems to him that religious tolerances and teaching should only be allowed if like minded people are teaching about the religions and how to be 'tolerant' of them. - I hate articles like this... Stupid propaganda circle. These people annoy me as much as the AFA.I'm sorry I keep referring back to SA, but it's the only benchmark I have since it's where I live
How religion should be taught in a secular state is currently quite a hot topic in our media. As an atheist I find it's easy for me to say that all religions should be taught on equal footing in schools, but I can understand why a Christian parent might not be comfortable with their child being taught Islam. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc05.deviantart.net%2Ffs13%2Ff%2F2007%2F012%2Fc%2F3%2F_flame__by_GirlFlash.gif&hash=382a8175e63374d6f2c9d7d1a3c396bc4d8a8b65)
Title: Re: South Africa: no longer a Christian nation
Post by: kelltrill on February 04, 2010, 08:58:26 PM
Post by: kelltrill on February 04, 2010, 08:58:26 PM
I didn't think this was worth it's own topic, but I wanted to broach the subject in any case and I thought expanding this topic would be fine.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1 ... 410C830353 (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20100204122436410C830353)
"Sangomas plan to slaughter bull in CBD"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8388001.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8388001.stm)
http://www.football.co.uk/england/contr ... 6277.shtml (http://www.football.co.uk/england/controversial_cow_sacrifice_plan_for_world_cup_rss276277.shtml)
Cattle are generally slaughtered in the Zulu culture to mark a celebration or important event, such as a rite of passage for young men or at a funeral. A sangoma is a witchdoctor, traditional herbalist, or traditional healer and is a highly respectable position in African culture.
Several white, Christian people I know (I'm sorry that I feel the need to specify race and religion in this instance) are using words such as "barbaric, uncivilised, disgusting" to explain this request. Now, while I know it's none of those things, I can't decide whether it's a good idea or not. It is a very forward cultural gesture. Hare Krishnas are vegetarians so they could take offence to this, animal rights activists are freaking out, Hindus regard the cow as a symbol of life that may never be killed, Muslims are specific about the way animals should be slaughtered, and conservative Christians consider it a demonic sacrifice.
Since no religion seems capable of sticking to their own beliefs in peace and ignoring the practices of others, this is causing quite a stir.
With so many races, ethnic groups and religions in this country, is it wise to have such a public, graphic demonstration of any one? Is it a possible way of promoting religious tolerance, and if this request is refused would it be promoting religious intolerance by suppressing a specific public religious practice?
I'm reminded of Singapore's high levels of religious tolerance because they've made communal worship places for all religious groups. Eg: a mosque that also serves as a church and synagogue. However, Singapore is a first world country, whereas SA is a developing one.
What a conundrum.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1 ... 410C830353 (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20100204122436410C830353)
"Sangomas plan to slaughter bull in CBD"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8388001.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8388001.stm)
http://www.football.co.uk/england/contr ... 6277.shtml (http://www.football.co.uk/england/controversial_cow_sacrifice_plan_for_world_cup_rss276277.shtml)
Cattle are generally slaughtered in the Zulu culture to mark a celebration or important event, such as a rite of passage for young men or at a funeral. A sangoma is a witchdoctor, traditional herbalist, or traditional healer and is a highly respectable position in African culture.
Several white, Christian people I know (I'm sorry that I feel the need to specify race and religion in this instance) are using words such as "barbaric, uncivilised, disgusting" to explain this request. Now, while I know it's none of those things, I can't decide whether it's a good idea or not. It is a very forward cultural gesture. Hare Krishnas are vegetarians so they could take offence to this, animal rights activists are freaking out, Hindus regard the cow as a symbol of life that may never be killed, Muslims are specific about the way animals should be slaughtered, and conservative Christians consider it a demonic sacrifice.
Since no religion seems capable of sticking to their own beliefs in peace and ignoring the practices of others, this is causing quite a stir.
With so many races, ethnic groups and religions in this country, is it wise to have such a public, graphic demonstration of any one? Is it a possible way of promoting religious tolerance, and if this request is refused would it be promoting religious intolerance by suppressing a specific public religious practice?
I'm reminded of Singapore's high levels of religious tolerance because they've made communal worship places for all religious groups. Eg: a mosque that also serves as a church and synagogue. However, Singapore is a first world country, whereas SA is a developing one.
What a conundrum.