Happy Atheist Forum

Straight from my wacky home state of Ohio:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/20/teacher.cross/index.html?iref=newssearch

QuoteTeacher accused of burning cross on student's arm
Story Highlights:
Ohio teacher accused of branding cross on student's arm, teaching creationism
John Freshwater was reprimanded for refusing to move his Bible from his desk
School board passed resolution to terminate Freshwater's employment

Read about this some time ago. There's a lot to it, really. Normally I'm the first one to jump on this kind of stuff, but ... well, here.

The Post (Ohio University's student-run newspaper) had an opinion piece about this some time ago. Here it is. (http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/Articles/Opinion/Columns/2008/04/21/23928/) The gist of the article was stating that the Bible on the teacher's desk was "personal property" and not intended to sway students' beliefs one way or another. The title of the article: "Teacher's Bible was personal possession, not for preaching"

To which I replied:

QuoteHeadline: Teacher's paddle was art piece, not for punishing students.
Headline: Teacher's machete was butter knife, not for hacking students.
Headline: Teacher's propane tank was grill attachment, not potential bomb.
Headline: Teacher's gun was kept for self-defense, not for pistol whipping students.
Headline: Teacher's lingerie was for Rocky Horror rendition, not cross-dressing students.
Headline: Teacher's whiskey bottle was candle holder, not for inebriating students.
Point: it doesn't matter what it's for; it shouldn't be there.

You should see some of the comments defending this teacher on the link in the comments section of the article. They're insane, and I mean that genuinely. In-friggin'-sane. Gotta love being from Ohio, eh, joeactor?

Mother fucker should be fired and arrested for assault.

Meh.  There's a lot of good stuff in Ohio.

This isn't one of them!

Smell the burning Christian flesh,
JoeActor - the other other white meat

Its good to hear that he was fired.

Now we wait for the appeal on the grounds that it infringes on his religion, and he gets off the hook.

Quote from: "joeactor"Straight from my wacky home state of Ohio:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/20/teacher.cross/index.html?iref=newssearch

QuoteTeacher accused of burning cross on student's arm
Story Highlights:
Ohio teacher accused of branding cross on student's arm, teaching creationism
John Freshwater was reprimanded for refusing to move his Bible from his desk
School board passed resolution to terminate Freshwater's employment

The bible makes people crazy.Not to far from where I live to.I ever find out this crap goes on in my children's school I will pull them out and homeschool them.They need to let the parents of the students that were branded get ahold of this creep.

Quote from: "Evolved"Mother fucker should be fired and arrested for assault.

Then shot, hanged and fired again.  

Quote from: "joeactor"Meh.  There's a lot of good stuff in Ohio.

This isn't one of them!

Smell the burning Christian flesh,
JoeActor - the other other white meat

Smell the burning Christian flesh? I think that's a Cannibal Corpse lyric. hahaha. Or maybe from a Cicero speech.  

Quote from: "nikkixsugar"

Quote from: "joeactor"Meh.  There's a lot of good stuff in Ohio.

This isn't one of them!

Smell the burning Christian flesh,
JoeActor - the other other white meat

Smell the burning Christian flesh? I think that's a Cannibal Corpse lyric. hahaha. Or maybe from a Cicero speech.  :D

Quote from: "leftyguitarjoe"

Quote from: "nikkixsugar"

Quote from: "joeactor"Meh.  There's a lot of good stuff in Ohio.

This isn't one of them!

Smell the burning Christian flesh,
JoeActor - the other other white meat

Smell the burning Christian flesh? I think that's a Cannibal Corpse lyric. hahaha. Or maybe from a Cicero speech.  :D

Wow, conversing with Asmodean, and an Atheist Death Metal Fan! It's meh lucky day! Say, are you into anything like....say...Bad Religion, Slayer, Rammstein, KMFDM, System of a Down? Classic Rock are good too. Guns & Roses, Eric Clapton, Derek & the Dominoes, Jimi Hendrix. Jeez, I gave you so many bands, I might as well asked you what you don't like. Sorry, a little caught up in the moment.  

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/06/21/Freshwater_decision.ART_ART_06-21-08_A1_ABAI539.html

Just when I think there might be an inkling of hope for humanity I see shit like this.  This piss poor excuse for a science teacher should be faced with jail time.  He is a religious fundie who teaches ID and refuses to teach evolution (which is what they are firing him for) but thats not the bad part.  It's bad enough he does that but then this teacher decides to burn crosses into certain children's arms, while voicing his opinion that homosexuality is a sin blah blah blah.  He should get freaking 20 years in jail for branding children like they are fucking slaves.  Christians, assholes like this are representing Christianity ... you should be more pissed off then we are.

If all this wasn't bad enough the miserable excuses for human beings (aka the local fundie christians) showed up to pray for the teacher so he wouldn't be fired.  I guess all is right if you are a proponent for ID, it doesn't matter that you are mentally abusing children by feeding them lies OR  if you are physically harming them by burning your religious symbol into them (marking them) like you would cattle or a slave.  This frustrates the hell out of me.  [/rant]

That is ten pounds of crazy in a one pound bag right there.

Edit: prayer loses yet another fight, surprise surprise.

Actually no, they prayed that the board would do the right thing and it did. His ass got fired.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Actually no, they prayed that the board would do the right thing and it did. His ass got fired.

That's not what I read from a reddit article that i can't find right now.  I read they prayed he would keep his job.  Since a ctrl+F can't find pray in the article I posted which article are you basing this off of?

I'm pretty skeptical about the burning cross thing.  Seems like that could be a misunderstanding, mistake, or fabrication.  What scares me is the number of people in the community who support this guy.  One thing that makes religion so dangerous is that it almost requires of its believers that religion trumps the laws of society.  This is why people shoot doctors that perform abortions and fly planes into buildings.  If you really believe you are not subject to society's laws because of some higher law, you're not really fit to live in that society.  Sometimes I think it would be better if all the Christians moved to the same state (I nominate Antarctica) and they could make their laws based on Biblical teaching.  You know, go back to having slavery and stoning adulterers and the like.  Then again, I don't really think that, because nations like that do exist (Saudi Arabia, for example) and they can never manage to keep their beliefs contained within their own borders.  The hypothetical Christian nation of Antarctica would still cause problems for a secular USA.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Actually no, they prayed that the board would do the right thing and it did. His ass got fired.

That's not what I read from a reddit article that i can't find right now.  I read they prayed he would keep his job.  Since a ctrl+F can't find pray in the article I posted which article are you basing this off of?

First two lines of the article. Granted it's not what they were aiming for but the board did make the right decision.

Here let me quote the first line of that article for you Big Mac you seemed to miss the key words.

QuoteMOUNT VERNON, Ohio -- Supporters of John Freshwater stood in a parking lot yesterday asking God to inspire the school board to make the right decision.

Supporters of John knew that the school board was gonna fire his ass and did a group prayer so he wouldn't be fired.

QuoteChristians, assholes like this are representing Christianity ... you should be more pissed off then we are.

And some of us are.

John

Quote from: "John_Silver"

QuoteChristians, assholes like this are representing Christianity ... you should be more pissed off then we are.

And some of us are.

John

I'm glad.  The argument I usually hear here is, "Oh well they aren't true Christians".  No true Scotsman fallacy aside they are representing Christianity whether Christians like it or not.  I am glad that some of you are more pissed then we are but it needs to be more then just some of you.  That's the problem here.  A group got together to pray he keeps his job then the rational Christians in the area should have got together and came out to oppose this behavior and denounced both of them.  This doesn't happen though because peoples religious beliefs are set on some pedestal that needs to be protected rather then questioned and opposed.  This story will go largely ignored and Christians (in general) will shrug this incident off and not attempt to fix the cause of it.  That cause is irrationality is allowed to trump logic and critical thinking because of the afore mentioned protected status.

The rational Christians need to be out opposing these fundamentalist /evangelical world views as much, if not more, then atheists attempt to oppose it.  No deity will make this world a better place we all need to pitch in to do it.  Christians need to get out there and oppose assholes like Fred Phelps and his Klan of funeral picketers.  Christians need to get out there and oppose faith healers who exploit desperate people and swindle them out of their grocery money for some misplaced hope.  They need to oppose those who seek to undermine children's education for superstition and myth.  They need to oppose those who get on T.V. and brag that they are actively praying for the death of the president.  

If Christians went out in mass and opposed those who do batshit crazy things in the name of their religion we wouldn't have incidents like crazy teachers burning crosses into children's arms and telling them evolution is wrong and god did it.  These fundamentalist cults would be chocked out instead of being about 1/3 of the United States population.  (Seriously 1/3 of the U.S. label themselves as Evangelical Christians)

[/rant]

Sorry if I went off on a tangent this is one of my hot buttons.  We all have them and John I wasn't targeting this at you.  I hope you and I have many of these feelings towards this type of behavior.  If so I hope that by passing this sentiment on to you it will be passing it on to other Christians.  The more the better ^_^

Quote from: "LoneMateria"...We all have them and John I wasn't targeting this at you.

I know.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"I hope you and I have many of these feelings towards this type of behavior.

We will.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"If so I hope that by passing this sentiment on to you it will be passing it on to other Christians...

Like you wouldn't believe. My email box is full of responses from people I have passed the message on to. Most of it quite nasty. But I still hold that, from my experience, this isn't a religion thing. Unfortunately, religion is often the armor a power-monger wears when going to battle. Just like it can be the methadone one shoots up when trying to escape from a pathetic life. Religion (particularly the mishandling of it) can inflame and embolden people already predisposed to such fits of disturbing behavior. They can even find justification in it. Religion as I see it is a means to an end. An end all of us are after. Homeostasis. Some of us lean more on science and logic to reinforce our minds and others of us rely on things that ring true in our hearts. This is just my belief, of course. The bottom line is the guy was an asshole. There isn't a defense for that kind of psychopathic behavior.

John

Quote from: "John_Silver"Like you wouldn't believe. My email box is full of responses from people I have passed the message on to. Most of it quite nasty. But I still hold that, from my experience, this isn't a religion thing. Unfortunately, religion is often the armor a power-monger wears when going to battle. Just like it can be the methadone one shoots up when trying to escape from a pathetic life. Religion (particularly the mishandling of it) can inflame and embolden people already predisposed to such fits of disturbing behavior. They can even find justification in it. Religion as I see it is a means to an end. An end all of us are after. Homeostasis. Some of us lean more on science and logic to reinforce our minds and others of us rely on things that ring true in our hearts. This is just my belief, of course. The bottom line is the guy was an asshole. There isn't a defense for that kind of psychopathic behavior.

John

It's a shame this message falls on deaf ears.  I would expect Christians would want to clear up misconceptions about their faith to everyone else.  At least you have a unique view on many people in the Christian community.  You have to look at the nasty messages you get as a learning experience about part of the community.  

Okay so I wrote another long rant about your armor analogy and why it didn't work.  You don't deserve to be ranted to John since you are being honest in your inquiries and your explanations.  So i deleted my rant and i'm going to try to explain why I don't agree with the analogy without ranting.

First off instead of armor as your simile i'd have personally used a gun.  Same principle its not the guns fault some asshole decided to shoot a abortion doctor.  At first it looks like a good example but when you start to look at the properties of said gun (or armor which I will use since it was the original analogy) you will see why it's not.  Now I view fundamentalism and evangelicalism more as cults that use the guise of religion to spread their crazy beliefs.  What these cults do is find a way to make you dependent on them, (tell you a sinner but wait we happen to have a cure for just that sort of thing), then once you become dependent on them you are expected to follow everything they say without question.  Since they use the guise of Christianity (the most common religion in our area) these mentally abused people blend into the fabric of our society.  They have turned off their critical thinking skills when the one wearing the armor is talking.  And turn into ticking time bombs.  Though the action being looked for may not be verbally expressed it is strongly hinted to.  When these people come out of the shadows to commit a crime (which in their eyes is holy or correct) they are often times protected under the guise of religion and the freedom there of.  Religion is a powerful weapon which is allowed to be used by anyone and which automatically gives them a certain level of protection from criticism and when the shit hits the fan they are disowned by similar religions however still protected by their guise.

I may be on to respond sometime tomorrow , but my GF and I are heading back to Florida so we will be in the car 16 hours.  I will address any comments or concerns if you have any when i can ^_^

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Here let me quote the first line of that article for you Big Mac you seemed to miss the key words.

QuoteMOUNT VERNON, Ohio -- Supporters of John Freshwater stood in a parking lot yesterday asking God to inspire the school board to make the right decision.

Supporters of John knew that the school board was gonna fire his ass and did a group prayer so he wouldn't be fired.

I know that, I'm saying ironically enough the board did the right thing.

QuoteI may be on to respond sometime tomorrow , but my GF and I are heading back to Florida so we will be in the car 16 hours. I will address any comments or concerns if you have any when i can ^_^

Drive safely.

QuoteFirst off instead of armor as your simile i'd have personally used a gun. Same principle its not the guns fault some asshole decided to shoot a abortion doctor. At first it looks like a good example but when you start to look at the properties of said gun (or armor which I will use since it was the original analogy) you will see why it's not.

I understand where I went wrong. It's a habit. Religion, to me, is a different animal. One man's religion is another man's spirituality. That's the case with me. I find myself at odds with religion as most know it. That is, the ritual observance of faith as dictated by a group of individuals who understand that faith to be from God (or another deity). Interestingly, my membership application to a large church here in Seattle remains in limbo after having gone through their high-tech membership application process because I wouldn't agree to "covenant to submit to the elder-ship". Now, in their defense, I did engage in some trickery in that I was going through the process to experience for myself things I had heard from friends who go there. Also, I think highly of the pastor of this church and he teaches fairly close to what I believe to be the heart of the Scripture. I simply believe his application process (not to mention that fact that there is a process at all) and his unhealthy obsession with Church structure has distracted him from his purpose a bit. And if I weren't a little further along in my spiritual growth I'd be downright pissed. But I've seen it before. Remember, I grew up having a pastor for a father.

That said, religion, as we know it, is the very thing for which Yeshua lambasted the religious leaders of His day. It also got Him murdered. When you said:  

QuoteWhat these cults do is find a way to make you dependent on them, (tell you a sinner but wait we happen to have a cure for just that sort of thing), then once you become dependent on them you are expected to follow everything they say without question.

you couldn't have been closer to the mark. In fact, it's a bulls-eye sure as I'm standing here. But they aren't the ones who said I am a sinner and need a cure. Yeshua said that. But what was this cure? The cure was His death. Now, you'll have to read it for yourself if you are even remotely interested in that sort of thing but one thing is certain, Yeshua never put the cure in the hands of men. Christians are not responsible for doling out forgiveness and salvation. They have far, far too much of a need to receive it themselves. Any honest Christian will tell you that. But I'm not here to tell that story.

For a true Believer, the day you follow the words of anyone without question is the day you stop believing. I lost my faith when I was about 17 only I didn't know I had lost it because I kept going through the motions. Thankfully, I rediscovered it in full about 10 years ago on my own. I unlearned and relearned everything my dad had taught me. But I did it apart from him. And I learned it the way Yeshua taught it and lived it. That saddest thing to me is this: Those people I learned from initially think I am slipping away. They don't like the fact that I use the name Yeshua rather than Jesus. Or that I am interested in Judaism and the roots of my faith in Israel. I have to defend my beliefs from my own people. Ironically though, I hated my dad before. Now that I have rediscovered the faith I had lost...I talk to him almost every week now. We just don't talk about my faith much.

This is why I can imagine religion as armor so easily. I can separate religion from faith. At least mine. But your gun analogy does work as well! Same deal.

Anyway, I'm up too late. Hope to continue this tomorrow.

John

Quote from: "John_Silver"For a true Believer, the day you follow the words of anyone without question is the day you stop believing. I lost my faith when I was about 17 only I didn't know I had lost it because I kept going through the motions. Thankfully, I rediscovered it in full about 10 years ago on my own. I unlearned and relearned everything my dad had taught me. But I did it apart from him. And I learned it the way Yeshua taught it and lived it. That saddest thing to me is this: Those people I learned from initially think I am slipping away.

Reminds me of Kierkegaard's ideas.

alright i'm doing this on my phone so I apologize in advance for spelling errors.

@ BigMac I understand what you are saying now I misread what you said ... my bad

@ John thanx Heather and I will try to make it home in one piece.  I'm going to address your response once i get home and can type with more than two fingers.  We are almost completely on the same page though.

This could probably be merged with the original thread about this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1580 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1580)

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"This could probably be merged with the original thread about this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1580 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1580)

done.

Quote from: "AlP"Reminds me of Kierkegaard's ideas.

I do enjoy what I have read of his stuff. But I have only read snippets. I have a book with condensed versions of his work mixed with the works of others.  

John

whoops i didnt see the same topic existed when i posted this.  My bad >.<

Quote from: "LoneMateria"whoops i didnt see the same topic existed when i posted this.  My bad >.<

It was old... no worries.  

Quote from: "LoneMateria"whoops i didnt see the same topic existed when i posted this.  My bad >.<

Not a problem...I'm sure there are numerous other repeat topics on the forum.  I just combine them when they are pointed out of I notice it (unless they can't be combined without loosing the flow of discussion).

Yay I made it back to sunny florida in one piece.  The GPS we got for xmas knocked about 170 miles from our trip and it took us an extra half hour to get home.  So it's late and i'm tired but i'm going to respond to your message John like I said I would.  If I am incoherent now just point it out and when I wake up I should be able to make sense of it :eek:

Quote from: "John_Silver"But they aren't the ones who said I am a sinner and need a cure. Yeshua said that. But what was this cure? The cure was His death. Now, you'll have to read it for yourself if you are even remotely interested in that sort of thing but one thing is certain, Yeshua never put the cure in the hands of men. Christians are not responsible for doling out forgiveness and salvation. They have far, far too much of a need to receive it themselves. Any honest Christian will tell you that. But I'm not here to tell that story.

Now were getting into an area I don't agree with.  I'm going to start at the end of this paragraph and work backwards so bear with me.  Christians will do exactly what you say they can't do and say, "I hold here the cure to everything that is wrong in your life".  I understand this is part of your faith ... but it's certainly not across the board.  Evangelicals are notorious for this behavior as well as faith healers.  

Now your interpretation of your holy book is up to you.  If you want to look at it as Jesus (I'm just going to call him Jesus instead of Yeshua since i'm far more likely not to misspell Jesus) died to forgive everything then go ahead.  I'm not going to contend with your view of it.  I'm going to contend that he doesn't have the right to do it.  I can make a long argument for this and if you are interested in what i'm about to say let me know and we can start a new thread even though we are kinda hijacking this one.  

First off I have to make a few assumptions so correct me if they are false.  Everyone has a different view of God and the events depicted in the bible, but for expediency I need to make assumptions here.  So for this portion i'm assuming 1:) you believe Jesus died to remove Original Sin and all future Sins.  2:) Jesus either is God or is so close to God that their words would be identical.  3:) That you have read enough of Genesis and the Old Testament to follow what I am saying.  

Okay lets start with the story of Adam and Eve.  God makes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for whatever reason and then tells Adam and Eve not to eat it.  The talking snake (or Satan depending on your personal views) convinced Eve to eat it and to give it to Adam.  This is considered the moment of original sin when they ate from the tree.  Now was it really a sin?  If they didn't know going into it what was good and evil and they committed this act without that knowledge then why would it be a sin?  And why would God punish all snakes for the actions of one blah blah blah.  Next Part.

Why is it that this Sin gets passed down through the generations that Jesus has to get rid of it?  What kind of immoral/asinine system exists where you are punished for something your father did?  Now fast forward.

Humans have expanded to the dominant race but they all do sinful things and deserve infinite punishment(hell) for the finite crimes they commit (another immoral system).  Jesus appears and says it doesn't matter what you have done or what you will do, i'll get beaten and killed and it will make everything better.  Because for some reason God just can't find it in himself to just forgive people.  Now you have another immoral system, namely, vicarious redemption.  A system where someone else can absolve you of your crimes if they want to and love you enough.  If a man rapes a woman is it okay for his mother to step in and say, "Judge I love my son so much so send me to jail in his place and let him go free"?  No, it's not.  Just like it's not okay for Jesus to do it also.

Anyway Jesus showed up to replace several immoral systems with another immoral system.  Not only does no one have the right to do this, but why would an all loving God allow this to happen?  Why would he absolve you of your responsibility to make amends or stop you from being punished for something  you have done to someone else?  How can he be called loving if he does this?  He absolves people he likes of their responsibilities to people he doesn't like or at least not as much?  If you are raped should your rapist not be punished because someone took his place?  No.

Quote from: "John_Silver"For a true Believer, the day you follow the words of anyone without question is the day you stop believing. I lost my faith when I was about 17 only I didn't know I had lost it because I kept going through the motions. Thankfully, I rediscovered it in full about 10 years ago on my own. I unlearned and relearned everything my dad had taught me. But I did it apart from him. And I learned it the way Yeshua taught it and lived it. That saddest thing to me is this: Those people I learned from initially think I am slipping away. They don't like the fact that I use the name Yeshua rather than Jesus. Or that I am interested in Judaism and the roots of my faith in Israel. I have to defend my beliefs from my own people. Ironically though, I hated my dad before. Now that I have rediscovered the faith I had lost...I talk to him almost every week now. We just don't talk about my faith much.

This is why I can imagine religion as armor so easily. I can separate religion from faith. At least mine. But your gun analogy does work as well! Same deal.

Anyway, I'm up too late. Hope to continue this tomorrow.

John

I've gone on longer then I wanted to >.< so i'm gonna sum this last one up as quickly as I can.

When you start talking about true believers and true Christians I can't help but think of the No True Scotsman Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman).  I'm glad you shared your story (at least some of it) here.  I'm sorry that you are at odds with your old friends over this.  Religion is a fickle thing.  As long as people think you are on the same page as them everything is fine.  But if they find out you are not then chaos can ensue.  

I agree that armor works very well, I think gun is just a person taste since I view it more as a weapon in certain peoples hands rather then protection.

I feel we may be getting OT here since this thread is supposed to be about the asshole teacher.  If this is the case I'd enjoy starting a thread about the story of Jesus and discussing it more in depth.

Quote from: "Whitney"I feel we may be getting OT here since this thread is supposed to be about the asshole teacher. If this is the case I'd enjoy starting a thread about the story of Jesus and discussing it more in depth.

Let's do that. Because you raise some very sound concerns. Wow, you are really getting to the meat of it aren't you?

Glad you made it back safe. I'll continue this tomorrow in a new thread called "The Jesus Symposium"

John

This discussion is getting interesting, the whole sin system and the rationlisations people come up with for it have always fascinated me, please do continue this, though perhaps, as you suggested, another thread would be better.

But before I go...I read the Scotsman bit. The difference is that a Scotsman is a Scotsman by birth. A christian chooses to be one (or is called to be one depending on who's talking to you at the time). So he can be called out if He doesn't live by the fruit of the Scripture. The Scotsman fallacy is like saying a gay man who's kissed a girl isn't really a gay man. (Actually that last sentance was a nasty set up...just ignore the bait please!)

John

Quote from: "John_Silver"But before I go...I read the Scotsman bit. The difference is that a Scotsman is a Scotsman by birth. A christian chooses to be one (or is called to be one depending on who's talking to you at the time). So he can be called out if He doesn't live by the fruit of the Scripture. The Scotsman fallacy is like saying a gay man who's kissed a girl isn't really a gay man. (Actually that last sentance was a nasty set up...just ignore the bait please!)

John

I'm gonna disagree with you that a christian chooses to be one.  I'd say the vast majority of Christians are indoctrinated since there is an overwhelming probability (something like 99.8% i'll have to find my source again) that you will be a part of the religion your parents are a part of.  Now I know this isn't true for you John but you seem to be the exception, not the rule.  

We can discuss this too in the other thread ^_^

I agree with that, LM. I was brainwashed from the crib until I was about 12 about how horrible of a sinner I was and how I was destined for hell with out Jesus and all that other nonsense. Christians are not born that way. If you were to raise a child completely secular and then about age 14 tell them about Jesus, most of them would not take it. Hell, if you started telling them at 18, they'd most likely laugh at you and keep about their business. Religion needs to get people when they are in their young, vulnerable and highly impressionable state to maintain its iron grip on the mind. Kind of like the Matrix.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I agree with that, LM. I was brainwashed from the crib until I was about 12 about how horrible of a sinner I was and how I was destined for hell with out Jesus and all that other nonsense. Christians are not born that way. If you were to raise a child completely secular and then about age 14 tell them about Jesus, most of them would not take it. Hell, if you started telling them at 18, they'd laugh at you and keep about their business. Religion needs to get people when they are in their young, vulnerable and highly impressionable state to maintain its iron grip on the mind. Kind of like the Matrix.

Well you'd have to take the up with C.S. Lewis and other perfectly intellectual sorts who "convert" often after leading very successful and fulfilling lives without a god. Not to belabor the point, but to belabor it.

John

Quote from: "John_Silver"

Quote from: "Big Mac"I agree with that, LM. I was brainwashed from the crib until I was about 12 about how horrible of a sinner I was and how I was destined for hell with out Jesus and all that other nonsense. Christians are not born that way. If you were to raise a child completely secular and then about age 14 tell them about Jesus, most of them would not take it. Hell, if you started telling them at 18, they'd laugh at you and keep about their business. Religion needs to get people when they are in their young, vulnerable and highly impressionable state to maintain its iron grip on the mind. Kind of like the Matrix.

Well you'd have to take the up with C.S. Lewis and other perfectly intellectual sorts who "convert" often after leading very successful and fulfilling lives without a god. Not to belabor the point, but to belabor it.

John

You should read a little closer there, bub, I said MOST. I did not make an absolute statement.

The second part may have seemed that way. I've edited it.

Quote from: "Big Mac"You should read a little closer there, bub, I said MOST. I did not make an absolute statement.The second part may have seemed that way. I've edited it.

Fair enough. Accept my apologies.

John

Quote from: "John_Silver"

Quote from: "Big Mac"I agree with that, LM. I was brainwashed from the crib until I was about 12 about how horrible of a sinner I was and how I was destined for hell with out Jesus and all that other nonsense. Christians are not born that way. If you were to raise a child completely secular and then about age 14 tell them about Jesus, most of them would not take it. Hell, if you started telling them at 18, they'd laugh at you and keep about their business. Religion needs to get people when they are in their young, vulnerable and highly impressionable state to maintain its iron grip on the mind. Kind of like the Matrix.

Well you'd have to take the up with C.S. Lewis and other perfectly intellectual sorts who "convert" often after leading very successful and fulfilling lives without a god. Not to belabor the point, but to belabor it.

John

Your example does not quite counter Big Mac's hypothetical, as CS Lewis was raised as a Church of Ireland going family, was a Christian, before later leaving Christianity, he had already been exposed and affected by religion in his early years. Therefore he did not convert to Christianity, but reconvert to it, as Big Mac put it, religion already had him in his "young, vulnerable and highly impressionable state"

Quote from: "SSY"Your example does not quite counter Big Mac's hypothetical, as CS Lewis was raised as a Church of Ireland going family, was a Christian, before later leaving Christianity, he had already been exposed and affected by religion in his early years. Therefore he did not convert to Christianity, but reconvert to it, as Big Mac put it, religion already had him in his "young, vulnerable and highly impressionable state"

So then would this mean he was brainwashed by Christianity from the outset? So why then, once liberated and after discovering how fallacious religion was should he ever want to go back? Certainly Joy's cancer had nothing to do with it. Is that it? I've heard that one before. Maybe you're not saying that. I just got the impression from Bigmac's trite reply that he assumed most Christian's were brainwashed from birth and therefore couldn't change their spots. Like a Scotsman can't.

John

I read a book called the Question of God  about 5 or 6 years ago that kinda pitted C.S. Lewis against Freud by editing their works into a book.  So, it's been a long time and my memory could be fuzzy but I believe I got the impression that C.S. Lewis was more upset with god than he was an atheist.

I'm not saying he wasn't an atheist...however it does seem awfully common for Christians (esp Christian authors) to claim they were once atheists but when you listen to why they were atheist it sounds more like they were just upset with their religious beliefs or pissed off at god for some reason.  That said...I'm not saying that someone couldn't be a Christian completely dump that belief for staunch atheism then find their way back to Christianity; I'm pretty sure that has happened before (in fact I think it happened to someone either on this forum or another forum I frequent).

I was simply pointing out that the example of CS Lewis, does not contradict the situation as it was put forward, the situation Big Mac talked about, was of a child raised with no religious influences. CS Carol grew up in a religious family, disqualifying him for use as a counter example. I could not tell you the exact reasons for his reconversion, but my own personal inclination would be to suspect he still hung onto a theism influenced view of the world, I shall go no further with that line of reasoning though, for fear of invoking the Scotsman myself.

While we are on the subject though, prayer and meditation has been claimed to alter the structure and function of the brain (though admittedly, I have not seen the studies or papers themselves, merely the associated news mush). As for the brainwashing, most definitions I have seen of it, would in my opinion cover a lot of religious people and their children, but I do not say this would make it impossible for all Christians to change their opinions, but certainly make it very difficult for the vast majority of them.

As an addendum, from the posts you have written which mention the Scotsman Fallacy, my perception is that you might be missing something, either in the character of the fallacy itself, or the manner in which it pertains to your "true believers" comment.

Whitney based edit, yes, the angry at god thing would fall under the umbrella of my theism influenced world view, and I too have noticed the number of Christians who seemingly delight about the strength of their atheism prior to finding the light. As I said before though, the no true Scotsman fallacy is one I am very wary of.

Quote from: "John_Silver"

Quote from: "Big Mac"You should read a little closer there, bub, I said MOST. I did not make an absolute statement.The second part may have seemed that way. I've edited it.

Fair enough. Accept my apologies.

John

No apology needed. Just pointing it out so we don't get off track over a minor detail.