Happy Atheist Forum

Thanks again to all, for your involvement in this little project.

I am going to list some terms and see if, as they relate to your worldviews, you will define them and whether or not the use of them, particularly by theists, conjures within you a negative connotation or if it means something different from what you understand the term to mean.

1. Morality (or morals); This one seems to be a hot button of sorts.
2. Altruism (While everyone loves to say the word, I fear many Christians see it as skeptic-speak for morality)
3. Law of Nature (Nature, in Christendom, often plays the part of the negative, sin-infected way of the world)
4. Atheist, Non-Theist, Anti-Theist (Do they actually exist as welcome self-identification or are they just rash generalizations?)
5. Free-Thinker (most Christians are unaware of G.W. Foote and his notions)
6. Gnostic (Christians understand this to mean the writings of frauds whose words were intentionally left out of Canonical Scripture)

That's what I have right now. Please add, if you would, any terms that you feel theists often mishandle when leveling accusations against Atheists or speaking to their congregations or readers about the pitfalls of Atheism that you may have come across.

Thanks!

John
http://www.30shekels.com (http://www.30shekels.com)

1. Morality (or morals); What is right or wrong; ethical systems are approximations or attempts at a probably unattainable, hypothetical "perfect" morality. What is right or wrong is decided neither by scripture nor evolution; if by scripture then it would be "right because god commands so;" but if god commanded that rape and murder is right, then god would be abhorrent. Evolution has no foresight; morality is all about foresight and planning

2. Altruism Doing right or kind with no expectation of reward; ethical egoism proposes that this does not actually happen in practise, but from an evolutionary point of view it can be explained as a "freeloading" attribute which is inseparable from our kindness towards our family

3. Law of Nature Pretty much the cause of everything; it is chaos and arguably quantum uncertainty (laws of nature themselves) that make the universe unpredictable

4. Atheist,Someone who rejects the notion that there is a higher power, usually on occamic principles (burden of proof lies on the person making an extraordinary claim)  Non-Theist, A person generally not interested in religion; atheist, agnostic or "apatheist" (contraction of apathetic of theism)Anti-Theist A person who considers that religion has negative effects on society and should thus be opposed

5. Free-ThinkerSomeone who assesses claims upon empirical, rational and logical grounds only

6. Gnostic I really don't know...agnostic is taken to mean "not sure about religous claims," which would imply that a gnostic is an atheist or theist who does not have doubt...that may not be the historical definition but I am quite happy to use it in the new, modern sense where it is contrasted with "agnostic"

IMHO. I'll try and deliberately hit things that might be controversial because I think that's what you're looking for.

1. Morality (or morals); This one seems to be a hot button of sorts.
Morality is a code of conduct observed by a society or group. Different groups have different rules. So the rules are not universal. However, arguing that one morality is better than another is fair game; they aren't all equally true as some proponents of a rather extreme form of moral relativism will claim. Moral ideas change with time, in the same way as any kinds of ideas change with time. Morality does not come from evolution. Some of the building blocks that allow our brain to think morally might be encoded in out genes but the ideas themselves are invented (slowly, all too slowly) by humans.

2. Altruism (While everyone loves to say the word, I fear many Christians see it as skeptic-speak for morality)
Acting for the benefit of others.

3. Law of Nature (Nature, in Christendom, often plays the part of the negative, sin-infected way of the world)
I've never heard this one and wikipedia has me scratching my head.

4. Atheist, Non-Theist, Anti-Theist (Do they actually exist as welcome self-identification or are they just rash generalizations?)
6. Gnostic (Christians understand this to mean the writings of frauds whose words were intentionally left out of Canonical Scripture)
Agnostic: Not certain and not explicit about probable number of deities.
Agnostic athiest (weak atheist): Thinks there are no deities but is not certain.
Gnostic athiest (strong atheist): Certain there are no deities.
Anti-theist: In active opposition to theism.
Non-theist: Umbrella term incorporporating just about anything that isn't theist, including atheist.

Gnostic is from the Greek gnosis meaning knowledge. Agnostic then means without knowledge. So it comes down to belief (which might not be true) versus knowledge (which by definition must be true).

5. Free-Thinker (most Christians are unaware of G.W. Foote and his notions)
I'll go with wikipedia: "Freethought holds that individuals should neither accept nor reject ideas proposed as truth without recourse to knowledge and reason. Thus, freethinkers strive to build their opinions on the basis of facts, scientific inquiry, and logical principles, independent of any logical fallacies or the intellectually-limiting effects of authority, cognitive bias, conventional wisdom, popular culture, prejudice, sectarianism, tradition, urban legend, and all other dogmatic or otherwise fallacious principles. Applied to religion, freethinkers have generally held that, given presently-known facts, established scientific theories, and logical principles, there is insufficient evidence to support the existence of supernatural phenomena."

Thanks, guys. I am hoping to get a few of these to sift through.

Alp: Controversy. Where would we be without it?

john

Quote from: "John_Silver"Thanks again to all, for your involvement in this little project.

I am going to list some terms and see if, as they relate to your worldviews, you will define them and whether or not the use of them, particularly by theists, conjures within you a negative connotation or if it means something different from what you understand the term to mean.

1. Morality (or morals); This one seems to be a hot button of sorts.To me means, a system of rules and guidelines that seem to smooth human and societal interaction, some christians seem to mean "Whatever my pastor said that jesus told his students that god wanted them to hate, which conveniently inculdes all the people I hate for no apparant reason
2. Altruism (While everyone loves to say the word, I fear many Christians see it as skeptic-speak for morality)Giving or acts that in general detract from the welfare of the giver, in order to help the recipiant
3. Law of Nature (Nature, in Christendom, often plays the part of the negative, sin-infected way of the world) Observed scientific laws, predictive tools.
4. Atheist, Non-Theist, Anti-Theist (Do they actually exist as welcome self-identification or are they just rash generalizations?)Don't believe, don't care and don't like, I am leaning towards anti these days, I think quite a few pwople identify like this, but when used by christians, atheist typically is pejorative, refering to one who willfully disobeys god in order to sate their sinful lusts, or do the Devil's work
5. Free-Thinker (most Christians are unaware of G.W. Foote and his notions)Thought free from the corruption of superstition, dogma, ignorance and any hinderance to the exploration of a topic by an individual
6. Gnostic (Christians understand this to mean the writings of frauds whose words were intentionally left out of Canonical Scripture)I think of this in terms of a position with regards to knowledge, but I picked up that usage here, I have not studied the term

That's what I have right now. Please add, if you would, any terms that you feel theists often mishandle when leveling accusations against Atheists or speaking to their congregations or readers about the pitfalls of Atheism that you may have come across.

Thanks!

John
http://www.30shekels.com (http://www.30shekels.com)

Be sure to post your stuff when you have finished writing it, I am very curius as to how they will come out

SSY:

Thanks for your input! Of course, I will post the rough draft in here before it goes live.

John

Quote from: "John_Silver"1. Morality (or morals); This one seems to be a hot button of sorts.

Morals an an evolved trait which aid in the survival of humans.  The desire to act morally is largely driven by empathy but also through a desire to be accepted by society.

Quote2. Altruism (While everyone loves to say the word, I fear many Christians see it as skeptic-speak for morality)

Pure altruism probably doesn't exist as there is almost always a benefit to acting for the interest of another.  For example, if a father has a choice between allowing his child to burn in a fire or rescue him and die himself the love he feels for his child and fear of loss/grief would drive the father to choose saving his child at the loss of his own life.  Even the Jesus sacrifice story is not pure altruism as Jesus desired the reward of salvation of his people and was therefore also benefiting from the act (jesus story stated as truth for the sake of discussion).

Quote3. Law of Nature (Nature, in Christendom, often plays the part of the negative, sin-infected way of the world)

Laws of nature are simply patterns we have discovered via science which can be used to predict how things will react in given situations.

Quote4. Atheist, Non-Theist, Anti-Theist (Do they actually exist as welcome self-identification or are they just rash generalizations?)

Atheist and Non-Theist are the same thing and both just mean someone who isn't a theist; they don't have a belief in a god.  Anti-theist is someone who would like to rid the world of theistic belief (a view I do not agree with as it takes aware freedom of belief and not all theistic views are harmful).

I think skeptic/free-thinker is a better term for my personal self identification.  I'm an atheist because of my skepticism and free-thought and even if I were to lean towards theism for some reason I would still be a skeptic/free-thinker.

Quote5. Free-Thinker (most Christians are unaware of G.W. Foote and his notions)

I think wiki explains it well:  Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or any other dogma.

I'm not aware of G.W. Foote's notions either.

Quote6. Gnostic (Christians understand this to mean the writings of frauds whose words were intentionally left out of Canonical Scripture)

Gnostic can mean the Gnostic Christians but it also means knowledge and forms the opposite of agnostic which means without knowledge.  I would argue that no one has knowledge of any gods and should consider themselves agnostic atheist or agnostic theist (respectively).  However, agnostic has come to mean someone who is undecided so it's use to define someone's view on what can be said with certainty is not that clear.

QuoteThat's what I have right now. Please add, if you would, any terms that you feel theists often mishandle when leveling accusations against Atheists or speaking to their congregations or readers about the pitfalls of Atheism that you may have come across.

They need to know that atheist is not another word for devil worship.  A lot of Christians seem to think that if you don't believe in their God that you must believe in Satan and worship him instead.

Feel free to pull quotes from the front of our site:  http://www.happyatheistforum.com/ (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/)

Quote from: "Whitney"Morals an an evolved trait which aid in the survival of humans.  The desire to act morally is largely driven by empathy but also through a desire to be accepted by society.

By that do you mean that a predisposition for moral behavior is an evolved trait? I would distinguish that from the development of moral ideas, which could also be described as an evolution of ideas but I think it's important to keep that separate from genetic evolution. For example, I don't think the idea that it is polite to say "please" and "thank you" is encoded in any gene. However, the predisposition to accept ideas like that might very well.

Quote from: "AlP"

Quote from: "Whitney"Morals an an evolved trait which aid in the survival of humans.  The desire to act morally is largely driven by empathy but also through a desire to be accepted by society.

By that do you mean that a predisposition for moral behavior is an evolved trait? I would distinguish that from the development of moral ideas, which could also be described as an evolution of ideas but I think it's important to keep that separate from genetic evolution. For example, I don't think the idea that it is polite to say "please" and "thank you" is encoded in any gene. However, the predisposition to accept ideas like that might very well.

^correct, that is what I meant.

Excellent. Thanks, Whitney. I am currently combining all of these responses to begin the second part of the article series. You all have truly shed light on things of which even I was ignorant (never mind Christians who have no interest in understanding your worldview at all).

John

1. Morality - Rules and laws set down by religions as the best way of behaving.  I try to use the term ethics instead.
2. Altruism - an act that benefits the altruist and the recipient of the altruistic action, see symbiosis in biology.
3. Law of Nature - what can survive and reproduce, will survive and reproduce.
4. Atheist, Non-Theist, Anti-Theist - Labels are sometimes misleading.  I think these labels need to be chosen by the individual alone.
5. Free-Thinker - A person who has examined what society has taught them, checked it against itself and determined what is false and true for themselves.  I personally don't exclude people of faith from this category.
6. Gnostic - Not interested in this at this point.  I'm learning about other viewpoints.

Quote from: "LARA"1. Morality - Rules and laws set down by religions as the best way of behaving.  I try to use the term ethics instead.

I think that's an interesting distinction. Often morality and ethics are used synonymously and I often use them incorrectly. I think a morality is a particular code of conduct. Ethics is a field of study that is concerned with morality. I'm not sure that morality must necessarily be religious. I think it's quite reasonable to talk about Humanist morality or the prevailing morality in a secular society.

I think I see what you mean though. Stressing ethics instead of morality puts more emphasis on thinking about the rules and less on following them.

Quote from: "AlP"I think a morality is a particular code of conduct. Ethics is a field of study that is concerned with morality.

That is my understanding of the distinction.  

Given that, I agree that morality is not only a religious concept.  While religions offer their views on what should be moral secular society also establishes their own code (more often than not that societal code then shapes the moral views of religions).  A couple examples of secular morality (at least for the US) is racism becoming morally unacceptable and (more obviously secular) it becoming increasingly more acceptable for unmarried couples to live together (and for gay couples to live together).

Quote from: "Whitney"A couple examples of secular morality (at least for the US) is racism becoming morally unacceptable and (more obviously secular) it becoming increasingly more acceptable for unmarried couples to live together (and for gay couples to live together).

Well said.

Here is a thought that popped into my head while I was reading this. Christians vehemently distance themselves from Hitler claiming he was using Origin of Species as his handbook for eliminating Jews as a defective race. Most others (including some Believers) know that even if that were the case, Hitler was misusing Darwin's conclusions and that had Ol' Chuck been alive, he would have joined the French Resistance. In addition, what most Christians fail to bring to the table are Hitler's undeniable dealings with Pacelli. And even if Hitler's Pope (the book) has been debunked and indeed Pius "liberated more Jews than Schindler", there is still Hitler's connection to Hajj Amin al-Husseini to contend with. Another religious zealot.

The point is, many Christians hold that Hitler operated without religious inclinations. So I think that the secular vs. religious morality question is much like the chicken and the egg one. Either way, doesn't it seem like we might end up with yolk on our faces trying to get to the bottom of that one? Was Hitler operating under a set of secular morals or religious ones?

John

In his book Mein Kampf (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch02.html), which I have the misfortune of having read, Hitler made several statements that indicate he had a religious motivation. For example:

Quote from: "Hitler"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord

He was Catholic. I don't necessarily think that was his true motivation though. He might just have been trying to use religion to convince his readers. Who knows? And actually the number of references to God in Mein Kampf are relatively few and far between.

I don't know if The Origin of Species motivated Hitler. If it did then he grossly misunderstood it. The full text of The Origin of Species is here (http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-origin-of-species/chapter-14.html). It's a bit like blaming the publications of early 20th century physicists like Rutherford for the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It would have been impossible without him but he's hardly to blame.

If you want an example of an evil atheist dictator, I'd go with Stalin.

Quote from: "John_Silver"Was Hitler operating under a set of secular morals or religious ones?

I think with Hitler the real issue as far as religion is concerned is that the masses bought into the God with Us mentality....that said, not much different than conservative Americans backing practically every military action the US does saying God Bless the USA.  The holocaust just stands out as especially horrible because the crimes were known (unlike the US secretly torturing people), in high number, and were against whole races of people.

When one person has dangerous views that seem to have religious influence they can be simply viewed as criminally insane; when they get a lot of followers it starts to look more like cult mentality where the masses are reaching out for any form of salvation from whatever is wrong with their lives even if the beliefs associated with that salvation are harmful.

So I agree that we can't get to the bottom of what caused Hitler to believe what he believed (although from my readings I personally have reached the view that he was influenced by faith even if it was one of his own making); but I do think that religion is a good tool to get the masses to fall in line like puppets.  Not that religion is the only way to achieve that sort of compliance; I'm sure pure fear would work quite well too (ie support for the "war on terror" was pushed just as much by fear as it was the general populations existing distrust of Islam).  That said, I think religion is more often used over fear because brainwashing has much more lasting effects than scaring the hell out of people (oppressed people tend to revolt).

Anyway...I think this is part of why you said earlier that you make a distinction between religion and spirituality; the ritual authority of religions tends create a leader that misleads their followers in some way even if they didn't knowingly mislead (usually minor, such as the church splitting off into denominations over if people should be allowed to dance or not and other petty things).

Whitney and Alp:

Understood. I do want to reply more in-depth but I am heading into the studio to lay finally down some vocals on a song we've been struggling with for an eternity.  

I shall return!

John