Happy Atheist Forum

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2009/12/churches_to_leave_homeless_min.html

In Kalamazoo Michigan 3 churches out of 8 are going to withdraw from Martha's Table (a place where the churches perform worship services and feed the homeless) because one church openly supported the LGBT bill.  They don't want to be guilty by association and thus have decided that their charity will send them to hell.  It's so freaking pathetic.

That's frickin West Michigan for you.  I need to leave this bloody state, not just because the cold is a torment but because this stuff is not a bit surprising here.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"That's frickin West Michigan for you.  I need to leave this bloody state, not just because the cold is a torment but because this stuff is not a bit surprising here.

I have family up there too over in Boyne City and in Marquette.  I'm pretty much ashamed of Michigan ... first the Lions now this j/k.  But in all seriousness this is horrible and I got so freaking angry when I read it.  Thats religion for ya though.  They claim to be more moral and help the needy unless they don't get their way then they throw a temper tantrum and refuse to be charitable.  Bastards should lose their tax exempt status for this shit.

***EDIT***

Those churches are so stupid.  What they are doing is the equivalent of going over to a starving village in Iraq and getting ready to feed people and saying, "Wait you talked to a Muslim ... no food for you."  Its immoral, self-centered, and I hope someone slaps an inkling of sense into them for doing this.

On a related note, the archbishop of DC has threatened to reduced charity funds for the homeless of the area because of the newly-passed equal rights for glbt folk.  Can I call him an asshat?

Quote from: "jrosebud"On a related note, the archbishop of DC has threatened to reduced charity funds for the homeless of the area because of the newly-passed equal rights for glbt folk.  Can I call him an asshat?

absolutely.  I mean if the hat fits.

You know, I can't recall Jesus saying only helping people when it doesn't affect your political belief. The only people who suffer are the homeless. There is a verse addressing that sort of shenanigans...Matthew 25:31-46

I rather like that passage myself. It helps illustrate that the stronger should help the weaker people out. Isn't it sad that people will only help others out based on such superficial nonsense? I remember reading an anecdote about how two rather wealthy women pulled their support of an animal shelter because the manager expressed a prolife view in a conversation. The animals were the ones to suffer for it merely because of a difference of opinion that in no way affected the running of the shelter.

Quote from: "Big Mac"You know, I can't recall Jesus saying only helping people when it doesn't affect your political belief. The only people who suffer are the homeless. There is a verse addressing that sort of shenanigans...Matthew 25:31-46

I rather like that passage myself. It helps illustrate that the stronger should help the weaker people out. Isn't it sad that people will only help others out based on such superficial nonsense? I remember reading an anecdote about how two rather wealthy women pulled their support of an animal shelter because the manager expressed a prolife view in a conversation. The animals were the ones to suffer for it merely because of a difference of opinion that in no way affected the running of the shelter.

Unfortunately for the passage it can be argued that they helped them as stated in the passage.  But this reminds me of a video I saw from NonStampCollector on youtube:

[youtube:7rhbhdvi]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s[/youtube:7rhbhdvi]

Quote from: "Big Mac"You know, I can't recall Jesus saying only helping people when it doesn't affect your political belief. The only people who suffer are the homeless. There is a verse addressing that sort of shenanigans...Matthew 25:31-46

I rather like that passage myself. It helps illustrate that the stronger should help the weaker people out. Isn't it sad that people will only help others out based on such superficial nonsense? I remember reading an anecdote about how two rather wealthy women pulled their support of an animal shelter because the manager expressed a prolife view in a conversation. The animals were the ones to suffer for it merely because of a difference of opinion that in no way affected the running of the shelter.

22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Sometimes even Jesus needs to be talked into helping people of different faiths/backgrounds.

Quote from: "G-Roll"

Quote from: "Big Mac"You know, I can't recall Jesus saying only helping people when it doesn't affect your political belief. The only people who suffer are the homeless. There is a verse addressing that sort of shenanigans...Matthew 25:31-46

I rather like that passage myself. It helps illustrate that the stronger should help the weaker people out. Isn't it sad that people will only help others out based on such superficial nonsense? I remember reading an anecdote about how two rather wealthy women pulled their support of an animal shelter because the manager expressed a prolife view in a conversation. The animals were the ones to suffer for it merely because of a difference of opinion that in no way affected the running of the shelter.

22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Sometimes even Jesus needs to be talked into helping people of different faiths/backgrounds.

Perhaps he wanted to show an example to his followers. Then again, I said I do like SOME of the stuff in the bible. There are a lot of bad things in there as well. It does have wisdom and a place in history. Just like the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas, etc. They all contain wisdom and should be read and digested mentally.

QuoteIt does have wisdom and a place in history. Just like the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas, etc. They all contain wisdom and should be read and digested mentally.

Some parts yes. there is a lot to take from the bronze/iron age. Most of it however is better of left in the past. Where the wisdom you speak of is actually mysticism and ancient mythology

Quote from: "G-Roll"

QuoteIt does have wisdom and a place in history. Just like the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas, etc. They all contain wisdom and should be read and digested mentally.

Some parts yes. there is a lot to take from the bronze/iron age. Most of it however is better of left in the past. Where the wisdom you speak of is actually mysticism and ancient mythology

Still stories like that help you be a better person to an extent. The whole taking it literally is what ruins most of it. The concept of loving others is a very good thing to pass along.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "G-Roll"

QuoteIt does have wisdom and a place in history. Just like the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas, etc. They all contain wisdom and should be read and digested mentally.

Some parts yes. there is a lot to take from the bronze/iron age. Most of it however is better of left in the past. Where the wisdom you speak of is actually mysticism and ancient mythology

Still stories like that help you be a better person to an extent. The whole taking it literally is what ruins most of it. The concept of loving others is a very good thing to pass along.

I only have way agree with you.  I agree that the intent is to make you a better person but the stories themselves (whether taken literally or not) often times are deplorable.  Let's take the story of passover as an example and I won't even get into the errors over this story.  Short Version, God is angry that his chosen people are slaves.  He sends Moses to talk and reason with the Pharaoh.  The Pharaoh laughs at him and tells him no.  So Moses is angry (I would be too if my family was slaves) and so is God.  So God sends the Pharaoh all these non-lethal signs to release the Jews and finally his patience is gone and he starts killing livestock then the first born children.  The Pharaoh releases them and after doing so he decides to renig and goes after them.  In order to escape God has Moses part the red sea and once everyone is across he lets the walls of water crash together and kill the pursuing army.

This story is meant to express the love of the deity and Moses's willingness to put himself aside and help his people.  Okay loving your people and putting yourself aside for the good of your community are good values ... but lets reread and look at what really happened.

The Jews have somehow got themselves turned into slaves.  God said, "I don't like this Moses go talk some sense into the Pharaoh".  So far so good.  The Pharaoh says no.  Okay not a good decision but from his point of view the slaves are property and would you give someone your house because he felt you shouldn't have it?  I don't agree with slavery in the first place but in context it's hard to blame the Pharaoh for his decision.  Now I would like to point out God doesn't care about all his slaves just the Jewish ones.  So off the bat God isn't against slavery he is only against it if his people are slaves.

So now God is angry and starts killing Crops, bringing in an abundance of vermin and pests.  The Pharaoh is trying to fix the problems God is sending his way and God won't relent.  He kills the livestock (why would you kill livestock for the decision of one man) then he kills EVERYONES first born son if lamb blood wasn't over their door (1: because men are more important then women and 2: to punish the Pharaoh) um... why would you kill everyones kids for the decision of one person and why would you require lamb blood to distinguish people?  Wouldn't God know?  Anyway after the Jews have brought the Pharaoh all sorts of misery and the deaths of so many in his city he gets rid of them.  They leave and then he realizes he needs help to rebuild his now decaying city.  So he sends troops to get them back which God kills all of them.

Now lets recap the lesson taught.  Killing the person responsible is too hard so you have to target everything the person holds dear and indiscriminately destroy crops, livestock, children/babies.  Is that a lesson that should really be taught?  Or is it better to get rid of this barbaric story and find some other way to teach good values to everyone?

You crack the disgusting shell of a pecan to get to the sweet juicy center. Some stories are great. The Good Samaritan is definitely one. Some of the passages that state to not crush the poor or needy or that hurting the fatherless and widows will earn you a special punishment. Yes, there are some very disgusting stories in there, but I think you can also find a lot of good things as well.

Quote from: "Big Mac"You crack the disgusting shell of a pecan to get to the sweet juicy center. Some stories are great. The Good Samaritan is definitely one. Some of the passages that state to not crush the poor or needy or that hurting the fatherless and widows will earn you a special punishment. Yes, there are some very disgusting stories in there, but I think you can also find a lot of good things as well.

I"m not arguing all the stories are bad.  I'm saying the good in the stories don't excuse the evil, barbarism of the stories.  I heard this before (and I've used this saying in here) If you find a candy bar thats been dropped in dung do you still eat it?  For every story that you can label as good in the bible I can name one that is terrible like the story of 2 Kings 2 where God sends the she-bears to kill 42 children for calling his prophet bald.  Hell that one should cancel out 5 good stories (if they exist).

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Big Mac"You crack the disgusting shell of a pecan to get to the sweet juicy center. Some stories are great. The Good Samaritan is definitely one. Some of the passages that state to not crush the poor or needy or that hurting the fatherless and widows will earn you a special punishment. Yes, there are some very disgusting stories in there, but I think you can also find a lot of good things as well.

I"m not arguing all the stories are bad.  I'm saying the good in the stories don't excuse the evil, barbarism of the stories.  I heard this before (and I've used this saying in here) If you find a candy bar thats been dropped in dung do you still eat it?  For every story that you can label as good in the bible I can name one that is terrible like the story of 2 Kings 2 where God sends the she-bears to kill 42 children for calling his prophet bald.  Hell that one should cancel out 5 good stories (if they exist).

Hey I'm not saying they aren't some evil/stupid stories but there are good ones. You have to exercise good judgment and realize that stoning disobedient children to death is probably not the best course of action. Helping out the poor and hungry is.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey I'm not saying they aren't some evil/stupid stories but there are good ones. You have to exercise good judgment and realize that stoning disobedient children to death is probably not the best course of action. Helping out the poor and hungry is.

Exercise judgement?  How much crap does something need to be surrounded by before you think it should just be discarded and you buy another candy bar?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey I'm not saying they aren't some evil/stupid stories but there are good ones. You have to exercise good judgment and realize that stoning disobedient children to death is probably not the best course of action. Helping out the poor and hungry is.

Exercise judgement?  How much crap does something need to be surrounded by before you think it should just be discarded and you buy another candy bar?

Feh, if it helps keep some idiots pacified into being good, let them eat their shit covered bars.

and i think we are bad people for watching them eat it and not saying anything.  If they choose to eat it after we tell them not to then whatever we tried.  I'd rather see them eat something better though preferably something that doesn' t have the shit on it.  I think they would feel better too.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"lol and i think we are bad people for watching them eat it and not saying anything.  If they choose to eat it after we tell them not to then whatever we tried.  I'd rather see them eat something better though preferably something that doesn' t have the shit on it.  I think they would feel better too.

Yeah but by then a mind that old is too far ingrained with that nonsense that it's hard to break away. You're right, we should try.