Happy Atheist Forum

I was shocked to see there is no previous thread that handles this.  Over the last few years Christians have said atheists, jews and muslims alike have been trying to remove Christ from Christmas.  I'm not going to get into the little details of why they are wrong like Jesus was more then likely born in spring and that Christmas was an adaptation from a Pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice.  I'm sure most of us are aware of these things.  I want this topic dedicated to the stupidity associated with this supposed "war" the hypocrisy and the irony.

First blood has already been drawn this year ... and its not even December.  In Chambersburg Pennsylvania a nativity scene was erected in a public square and when an atheist group wanted a sign too ... well that was unacceptable and the idiots in charge of Chambersburg removed the nativity scene.  Well that didn't go over so well with some of the towns folk.  There have been public protests and complaining which has received nationwide attention from ... you guessed it Fox news.  Fox and their openly ignorant staff have been blaming atheists for this because we wanted a sign too.  We didn't even want theirs removed.  And right across from the square is a Presbyterian Church where the Nativity scene can be erected without any complaint ... but no its too easy to just move it 20 feet.  

There is no war on Christmas just like there is no war on Easter.  Christians have to find some way to feel they are being persecuted because they feel like they are doing the right thing.  In the weeks to come I guarantee there will be stupidity, violence, ignorance, and rage over this make believe war like there has been every year in the past few years.  By the end of the holiday season battles for basic human rights will be waged, towns will be sued and public officials will kill their own carers over this issue.

One last thing, this (http://open.salon.com/blog/john_hummel/2009/11/30/the_war_on_christmas_-_batter_down) link is to a funny article that compares religion to sports fans.  I thought I out to share it since it pertains somewhat to the War on Christmas.

Jesus was added onto the December 25th holiday around 200 A.D. The winter solstice has been celebrated for thousands of years. They should get their mythology out of our solstice.

Get yer Jesus out of mah solstice!  

Quote from: "Will"Jesus was added onto the December 25th holiday around 200 A.D. The winter solstice has been celebrated for thousands of years. They should get their mythology out of our solstice.

Get yer Jesus out of mah solstice!  

Yup I agree ... but so many people never took the 5 minutes to look up the origins of Christmas and those are the people who get so mad because we are taking Jesus out of it. Its not like we walk around saying Merry Solstice and have a happy non-jesus year.  Have a happy holiday season since almost every group has some holiday in there.

Of course this means it's time for me to whip out A Very Atheist Christmas - 666 Words on How Atheists Can Celebrate the Winter Holidays (http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Issues#module62720202) again and get my brains working on a new Christmas satire.

I think it's the retailers who are trying to take the Christ out of Christmas =). Black Friday seems to have gone relatively well for them, all things considered. Consumer fetishism here we come... I plan to spend about $100-$200 over the holiday season. I read somewhere that the average American spends over $800.

That would be pretty smart for retailers to do that actually.  If you put Christmas this and Christmas that in your store, though you'd appeal to 90% of people, you'd lose revenue from those who don't celebrate and would rather go to a store that says Happy Holidays or something more geared toward their belief system.  I can understand it from a retailers perspective.  And woah $800 as an average?  No wonder our economy is in the crapper.  Perhaps we can link this to Christianity and blame Christians for our economy .  This year people will be spending money they don't have ... that can't be good for the long term benefit for the economy.

loved the link!! i cant watch bill o'riely (especially around this time of year) because apprently someone is always trying to rid the world of christmas. how can xians force there beleifs on us without merry xmas jesus day?
You know the whole point of christianity is the next life, or your enterance to heaven. the meek shall inhearit... blah, blah. so why is there such a power struggle between the "3 big teams?"

I was hoping the overblown "war" on Christmas stuff would quietly go away, but so sad to see it hasn't.    I think it's so petty to remove a nativity scene just because an atheist group or other group wants a little spot for their decorations.  It's like a little child who just cannot share.  "You want a yule log next to our Jesus?!  No way!  I'm taking my three wise men, Mary, Joseph and the camels and my ass and going home RIGHT NOW!"

I have to admit I honestly like a well done nativity scene, they are sometimes quite beautiful, I interpret them as a family surrounding a new child and ignore the implied religious story.  Which in itself is completely blasphemous I'm sure.

This year I found myself in front of a nativity scene in a store appreciating the artistry of the carvings without the superstition.  We always had one for Christmas when I was a kid and I thought it was pretty.  Maybe I'll set one up, just for fun.  If I do, I'll let you know if it bursts into flames spontaneously from my lack of belief.

Look, a list of places not to shop at:  http://standforchristmas.com/ (http://standforchristmas.com/)

Seriously, if I have a choice between shopping at a store that recognizes diversity and shopping a store that does nothing but pipe our ultra religious christmas music and has Jesus is the Reason for the Season posted everywhere....I'm going to the diversified store even if it is slightly more expensive (a lot more expensive and I might suck it up and give Jesus some money)

We might as well protest against the "Christ" in Christianity.

Hmm... I'm not really bothered all that much by "christmass friendly" retailers. If you ask me, it's all egotistical and annoying. That's why I'm not even celebrating christmas this year.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"There is no war on Christmas just like there is no war on Easter.

Uhm, are you denying that atheists camp out on the streets and protest Christmas? Because I can find you video footage if that's the case. For all their pretensions at being tolerant, atheists seem to have a problem with Christians celebrating their own holiday. That's why they get no sympathy from me when their rights are infringed upon.

Unlike atheists, I'm not an angry prick, so Christmas doesn't bother me. I see traditions as silly things that are done periodically for enjoyment/amusement. Christmas is a tradition, and I have no problem with that. That's why I'll be giving and unwrapping gifts this year.

Quote from: "Aedus"Unlike atheists, I'm not an angry prick...

That's good to hear.  You certainly had me fooled from reading your posts here.
___________________________________________________________________

If anyone is interested, here (http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/christmas.asp) is an interesting exploration of the possible reasons for the December 25 date being settled upon for the celebration of Christmas by a large percentage of the Christian world.  It's from the Biblical Archeology Review, and it presents a theory I had not heard before, relating to calendar calculations based on the idea that Jesus died on Passover.

Quote from: "Aedus"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"There is no war on Christmas just like there is no war on Easter.

Uhm, are you denying that atheists camp out on the streets and protest Christmas? Because I can find you video footage if that's the case. For all their pretensions at being tolerant, atheists seem to have a problem with Christians celebrating their own holiday. That's why they get no sympathy from me when their rights are infringed upon.

Unlike atheists, I'm not an angry prick, so Christmas doesn't bother me. I see traditions as silly things that are done periodically for enjoyment/amusement. Christmas is a tradition, and I have no problem with that. That's why I'll be giving and unwrapping gifts this year.

My sig is growing.

Quote from: "SSY"My sig is growing.

Score +1 for Aedus. w00t.

I think Christmas is a repulsive orgy of unrestrained consumerism no matter who it "belongs" to.  How anyone can claim it as a religious holiday is beyond me, except that, in many ways, it does reflect what religion has become in America.

Quote from: "Aedus"Uhm, are you denying that atheists camp out on the streets and protest Christmas? Because I can find you video footage if that's the case. For all their pretensions at being tolerant, atheists seem to have a problem with Christians celebrating their own holiday. That's why they get no sympathy from me when their rights are infringed upon.

Unlike atheists, I'm not an angry prick, so Christmas doesn't bother me. I see traditions as silly things that are done periodically for enjoyment/amusement. Christmas is a tradition, and I have no problem with that. That's why I'll be giving and unwrapping gifts this year.

I'm currently not in the mood to go 10 rounds over this.  Because the staggering minority of atheists decide to make asses of themselves and protest a holiday thats been around nearly 1700 years (for those of us who are keeping track) doesn't mean atheists in general are having a war on Christmas like fox news and evangelicals would love you to believe.  Your whole post seems to confuse the minority with the majority.  I can find you videos of atheists doing stupid shit ... just like I can find you videos of Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc... doing just as crazy if not more crazy shit.  Does that mean they represent the majority?  Not at all.

You'd be surprised at the number of atheists who refuse to discuss religion because they feel it's above reproach.  What you are doing in your post to atheists would be like me finding a Pentecostal church and labeling them as the majority of Christians.  You're just wrong.  Plain and simple.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Your whole post seems to confuse the minority with the majority.

Let's hope so...

*looks at post right above yours

Quote from: "Aedus"*looks at post right above yours

She's talking about consumerism Christmas being repulsive...which is different from the War on Christmas BS where fundamentalist Christians think atheists are trying to take Christ out of the holiday they stole form pagans.  It's actually all very ironic.

Quote from: "Aedus"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Your whole post seems to confuse the minority with the majority.

Let's hope so...

*looks at post right above yours

That's funny, because he specifically mentioned that he hates a non-religious aspect of Christmas that many Christians do agree with.

Quote from: "Aedus"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Your whole post seems to confuse the minority with the majority.

Let's hope so...

*looks at post right above yours

Very good, because one person posts they hate the commercial aspects of Christmas, you imply that the majority of atheists are campaigning to rid it of the religious connections Christians have tied to it. Very good indeed.

Here is an update... somewhat.

http://action.afa.net/Detail.aspx?id=2147486887

Found this on the atheist experience blog.  Though its not updated like the people claim it might be good to note which places to support ^_^

Xmas is a secular feast devoted to mammon, spending money and having a good time with workfolk and family. Very few people see any other significance in it but everyone has the right to celebrate as they wish... or not at all.

Quote from: "Aedus"Uhm, are you denying that atheists camp out on the streets and protest Christmas?

Ima atheist and I've never "camped out on the streets and protested Christmas."  

I smell fail.

There should be a war on Christmas.  This time of year is celebrated by many cultures and beliefs as being a special time of the year.  As a secular nation this time of year should be celebrated as being a universal time of celebration.  But it should not be celebrated as a holy day or season of a single religious belief.  We should be celebrating the winter solstice holidays, not the Christ holidays.

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"We should be celebrating the winter solstice holidays, not the Christ holidays.

Why does it matter what we call it?  Both were originally celebrated for religious reasons.  Many now secular holidays have religions origins....like Halloween that has origins in the idea that spirits could merge with the living world and then take Valentines day and St. Patricks day; I don't know their full histories off the top of my head but I think they are based on Saints.

While America may be a secular nation we simply can't ignore the fact that our culture has a lot of religious influence in what holiday we celebrate without not celebrating almost all currently common holidays...and that's not fun.

There should be a war on Christmas, We are a secular nation with secular laws and no false religious belief should have a holiday dedicated solely to it's beliefs.  The winter solstice is a universal time of celebration of universal beliefs.  I have no problems with celebrating a holiday at this time of year.  But I object that a proven false religion should have it’s own religious false belief be practiced by all.

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"There should be a war on Christmas, We are a secular nation with secular laws and no false religious belief should have a holiday dedicated solely to it's beliefs.  The winter solstice is a universal time of celebration of universal beliefs.  I have no problems with celebrating a holiday at this time of year.  But I object that a proven false religion should have it’s own religious false belief be practiced by all.

So...in your opinion...there should be a 'war' on Hanukkah(sp), Easter, Ramadan etc too?    

The US is a free nation, people are free to practice whatever religion they like even if it is very very very obviously false (like Scientology).

I think we just don't celebrate holidays if we don't like them...no need to prevent others from having their fun.

(for readers passing through, please note the only person supporting a war on christmas in this thread, so far, is a theist)

Except for my grandmother, my family was never very religious.  We occasionally attended church services, although my father never did. I still have fond memories of Christmases past when family members, now long gone, got together and exchanged gifts.  We still put up some decorations and exchange gifts although we don't attach any religious significance to it.  I think its a nice time of the year to celebrate the Winter Holidays.

BTW, Mark, are you an independent theist or do you belong to an organized church or religion?  (Perhaps the church of the dancing banana?  :bananacolor:

If Christians wish to accentuate their year-round worship of money and riches for one month out of the year, that's fine with me.  It helps show everyone where their real priorities are.

To Whitney

  Sorry about the confusion, this board moves faster then I expected and when I went back to check on posts I did not think to check back further then the first page.  So from now on I will check on the other pages to make sure that I respond to replies to my posts.  So you do not think that I am just a troll.

  In answer to your first reply, it does matter what the season is called and it does matter as to the reason for the season.  While there are a half dozen or dozen other religious celebrations that occur at this same time of year none of those celebrations are a recognized federal holiday only Christmas is.  I have the same objections to Thanksgiving being a recognized holiday, all it is, is a camouflaged Christian holiday.

  No religion nor any beliefs of any religion should be recognized by federal, state or local governments.  By having Christmas as a recognized holiday you are showing that all other beliefs and celebrations are inherently inferior to the Christian beliefs and celebrations.  This is fundamentally contradictory to the separation of church and state, and it goes against all that the founding fathers stood for in creating a secular nation.

  As for a war on Hanukkah or Ramadan they are not nationally recognized holidays, I have no problems with other invalid religious beliefs, I simply have a problem with the invalid Christian belief.  Judaism and Islam do not threaten this nation and as long as they do not threaten this nation I care little about them.  Christianity on the other hand threatens this nation and as such needs to be put into it’s place.  Easter is a nationally recognized holiday and as such it should not be a recognized holiday.

  Let’s clarify something, freedom of religion goes hand in hand with freedom from religion.  There can be no freedom from religion if the Government directly supports or indirectly supports one religious belief as being superior to all other religious beliefs.  So long as Christianity attempts to apply pressure to the federal, state or local governments to enact secular laws to enforce their invalid beliefs they are a threat to this country.

  If Christianity held it’s beliefs to be personal and individual and not universally applicable to others I would have no problems with them, but never in their history have they done this,

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"Christianity on the other hand threatens this nation and as such needs to be put into it’s place.  Easter is a nationally recognized holiday and as such it should not be a recognized holiday.

Quote from: "Ellainix"

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"Christianity on the other hand threatens this nation and as such needs to be put into it’s place.  Easter is a nationally recognized holiday and as such it should not be a recognized holiday.

  So do you agree with or disagree with my statement
 

QuoteJudaism and Islam do not threaten this nation and as long as they do not threaten this nation I care little about them.

"We have repeatedly issued warnings, over a number of years. Following these warnings and these calls, anti-American explosions took place in a number of Islamic countries."
Osama bin Laden

"If you don't give us justice. If you don't give us equality.
If you don't give us our share of America. If you don't stay
out of our way and leave us alone, we're gonna burn America down."
Abdul Alim Musa
Washington, D.C. Imam

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth..."
Omar Ahmad
Council on American Islamic Relations

"Ultimately, we (Muslims) can never be full citizens of this country...because there is no way we can be fully committed to the institutions and ideologies of this country..."
Ihsan Bagby
Council on American Islamic Relations

"I am in support of the Hamas movement"
"Address people according to their minds. When I speak with the American, I speak with someone who doesn't know anything."
Nihad Awad
Council on American Islamic Relations

"The 9/11 hijackers should be honored as martyrs."
The "U.S. risks further terrorism attacks because it
oppresses Muslims around the world. "Without justice,
there will be warfare, and it can come to this country, too."
Warith Deen Umar
Former Muslim Chaplain, New York Prisons


"When we hear someone refer to the great mujahid Osama bin Laden as a 'terrorist', we should defend our brother and refer to him as a freedom fighter..."
From "The Spirit of Jihad", published July 1999, in Al-Talib, the Muslim News magazine at UCLA, when Lekovic was one of the magazine's managing editors.
Edina Lekovic
Muslim Public Affairs Council

"In time, this so-called democracy will crumble, and
there will be nothing. And the only thing left will be Islam."
and
On stoning women: "If Allah says stone them to death, through the Prophet Muhammad,
then you stone them to death, because it's the obedience of Allah and his messenger... nothing personal."
Siraj Wahhaj
Brooklyn, New York Imam

"Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the existing
American order, since it is against the orders and
ordainments of Allah."
Imam Zaid Shakir
Former Muslim Chaplain at Yale University

"Let us continue the protests. Let us damn America.
Let us damn Israel. Let us damn their allies until death.
"Mohammad is leader. The Qur'an is our constitution. Jihad is our path..."
and
"Allah turned the Jews into monkeys and pigs."
Sami Al Arian
Former Professor, Univ. of S. Florida

To G-Roll

  I knew someone was going to challenge that statement.  Islam is doing nothing more then responding to our past involvement with the middle east from recognizing Israel and fully supporting Israel against them.  Please remember that the English and Americans and other European powers occupied and controlled the middle east in the past.  We had established puppet Governments such as the Shaw of Iran and Saddam Hussein.  As for your posted statements, they sound like standard religious fanatics put these fools side by side with our fundamentalists and evangelicals and the only way to tell them apart is the turban.

  We did not become a target for the Islamic extremists until after Bush the Father sent Christian forces into Saudi Arabia and then Iraq.  Bin laden was our ally during the Russian Afghan war and did not become our active enemy until Bush the Fathers Crusade against Iraq.  The only thing that it takes to end this mess is to sign a cease fire with Al Qaeda and the Taliban stating that we will keep our Christian arses out of the middle east, and they keep their Islamic arses out of our country.

  Let them know that if we get hit we start dropping MOAB’ (Massive Ordinance Air Blast) on top of their heads and that we will not bother with ground attacks we will simply bomb them into glass parking lots and then turn those parking lots into Pig Farms.

  The only thing that it takes to put a Moslem on the Homeland Security watch list is for him or her to cross their eyes.  While Most Moslems are like most Christians in that they just want to be left to live their lives as they wish, if some charismatic Islamic zealot managed to convince every Moslem in America to rise up in a revolt against us, the best they could hope for is two to three months of civil war before being exterminated.

  The same with a race war in America while American Blacks and American Hispanics could cause some devastating damage in a full fledge civil war none of these groups have the numbers or heart it would take to destroy this country and would be wiped out.  Besides though there is a lot of back and forth between races, non of them are abused enough or scorned enough to motivate them to the point of starting a civil war.  Or the heart it would take to burn this country to the ground.

  The threat to this country is Christians, not Moslems while the majority of Christians are probably decent people they can be whipped into religious furies by the evangelicals and fundamentalists.  Prop 8 in CA is a perfect example of this threat, and unlike the Moslems the Christians have the numbers and the heart to turn this country into a theological dictatorship.
 

I agree with about 90% of what you posted. Christianity is the biggest dog in the yard here in America. Thus holds the most power. I agree the influence of Christianity works its ways into our politicians and to this day can be manipulated into influencing votes and even other non political events. So in a way Christianity inside America threatens us more.
However outside of America not so much. Yes fundamentalist/extremist of both sides are equally hard headed and… well…  retarded. But one would have to point out 911 and other horrific terror attacks in western countries abroad.
We have already bombed these places into glass parking lots, pig farms, and back to the stone ages. But that’s what a lot of these places where before we dropped munitions. You mention the Russian and Afghan wars, well they have been fighting since then and for many of those in that generation it’s all they know.
Diplomacy died with the Islamic extremists. Its partially our fault. But if their sole intention is to spread Islam and crush everything else would have diplomacy worked in the first place?
I will say however that I fully supported the 1st Gulf war, Dessert Storm. I was only in High School and have no idea what the war was even really about, or what was in it for us, or what underlining factors drove us into war. But I have been to Kuwait twice now and have met many a Kuwaiti citizen. Civilian, military, and the bottom of the social barrel over there. I have been to Al Jabbar Air Base and have seen the building where high ranking officers, pilots, and cadets where executed. I have heard of rape camps set up and all kinds of horrific acts that took place. So I support liberating Kuwait if nothing else. But that is a whole other topic.
But to state that Islamic extremist don’t threaten America… Well just throw on a Garth Brooks t-shirt and take a stroll in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and quite possibly even in some parts of Saudi Arabia. And then take into consideration that nothing really prevents many of these people (extremists) from entering the US. As the quotes I posted showed.

To G-Roll

  We create our own monsters, whether it was Hitler, Japan Stalin non of these people or countries would have been hostile to us if it was not for us allowing it.  I am glad that you managed to go to those places and were not killed.  It was not a healthy area for Americans even before 9/11.  As for the first gulf war, Bush the Father wanted a war and got his war.

  Hussein went to the US ambassador before invading Kuwait and asked what our response would be if he went to war with Kuwait.  The ambassador responded that the Bush administration wanted good relations with Iraq and that we had no interest in border disputes between Moslem countries and that we would not get involved in such disputes.

  Hussein invaded, he would not have invaded except for getting the green light from the US first.  After the invasion the CIA showed pictures to the Saudi’s showing Iraqi tanks on the Saudi border waiting to invade Saudi Arabia.  They were faked, Hussein never wanted to invade Saudi Arabia because he knew that invading Saudi Arabia would cause a US response and he did not want war with the US.

  Hussein claimed the reason for the invasion was because Kuwait was side drilling into Iraq oil fields if you look at a world map Kuwait is no bigger then a flea on a dogs back as compared to Iraq, they have no oil reserves of their own.  He also claimed that Kuwait was the 13th province of Iraq and that it only had independence because England gave them independence after the second world war, and that it was Iraq’s right to reclaim that province.

  Now these were just justifications, the real reason Hussein invaded Kuwait was because it had racked up a huge war debt in it’s war with Iran which he considered to be a holy war.  All of the Sunni nations were giving him  loans, supplies and equipment to fight that war because they all considered Iran to be a threat to all of them.  And keep in mind the Iraq, Iran war started just after the Iranian embassy take over in which Americans were being held hostage.  I would assume the CIA had a hand in getting the Iraqi’s into declaring war.

  Hussein asked Kuwait to forgive Iraq it’s war debt.  Kuwait refused, and Hussein invaded them.  Kuwait supplied oil only to Japan, we had no treaties with them there was no reason for us to have gotten involved at all especially after giving the green light for him to invade.  And it was the CIA that had gotten Hussein into the weapons of mass destruction business, it was they who established the chemical weapons plants in Iraq during the Iran Iraq war so that Iran would not be able to over run Iraq which was a real fear at the time.

  Prior to the Gulf War of Bush the Father Bin Laden was not our enemy, prior to it Bin Laden had no interest in the United States his focus was on Israel not us.  If the first Gulf War had not happened then 9/11 would not have happened.
 

QuoteWe create our own monsters,

yeah that about sums it up.
everything else is history basically. its the truth (i do recall some of it now) and for many americans it probably stings. but thats life. i dont see a treaty or cease fire in the near future. i cant imagine it would be possible to rid the world of islamic extremists either. so here we are...
what was this thread originally about anyway?  

LOL  :headbang: