Happy Atheist Forum

It's been a long time since I've read the works of Nietchze. He wrote a lot of stuff which I read in High school though. But it's all fuzzy. Thus, this will be as much myself asking questions as it will be myself stating my opinions.

I'd like to discuss Nietzche's overman, for a few pertinent reasons. As far as I can remember, Nietzche believed that man was a thing to be transcended, and that a man transcended would produce this "overman". As good as that sounds, I think that's a very vague way of putting things, and certainly not very useful, for a couple of reasons: One is that there lacks a practical definition of "man" in the sense of "something to be transcended".

For example, it's easy to say that man needs to transcend himself, but what is this thing which needs to be transcended? And what does the verb, "to transcend" even mean?

I'm not sure what "transcend" means, except that I read in the dictionary the definition of "To rise above". Hmm. That's stupid. Taken literally, Nietzche would have us actually be ten feet above ourselves or something like that. That's impossible though, so we can't take it literally. Metaphorically? What could a metaphor of "rise above yourself" mean? Well, it obviously had a clear-cut metaphorical meaning in leterature. When a minority author, who dealt with petty stories about his own race and people, graduated to the general interest of the majority populatioin, He was said to have "transcended" his literary powers. This, of course, is very racist, used in a racist time.

But could Nietzche mean that we should somehow graduate from our own concerns and day to day life, our own petty grievances and little lives, to something grander? To the things that are bigger and glorified and make men great?

It might be that Nietzche's overman is the man whose thinking and attidutes go larger than life. The Napoleons and Alexanders and Ceasars of the world. Would it be possible to see Nietzche's "overman" as the man who has "risen above" the masses and graduated to the elite circles of the world?

that would certainly make a lot of sense.  

But then we come to the questions: Nietzche himself didn't think that every man could ever achieve such status. When look at in a way that reduces all ambiguity, it seems like Nietzche himself was simply an advocate For elite rulers. It looks as if Nietzche looked down on the masses with contempt. He certainly had no trouble condoning the sacrifice of millions if only one "overman" would be produced.

Nietzche's philosophy, then, is not a philosophy of the common man, or of equality, or of happiness. It seems to me to be more like a philosophy of Eugenics. I don't know. Perhaps I am missing something. Is there anyone who would like to comment?

I've never read any, so I don't know which word of his is translated 'transcend'.  Most likely überschreiten = 'step over'.

QuoteHe [Nietzsche] certainly had no trouble condoning the sacrifice of millions...

I admit it's been a few years since I last picked up a book by Nietzsche, but where does he suggest or condone "sacrificing millions?"

Nietzsche (it's tricky to spell, I know. In German Z's often has a "t" before them since their Z's are pronounced like "ts" in bits. "Sch" is usually like our "sh" but is transformed into a "chuh" sound in his name. Nee-chuh). Anyways, Nietzsche's overman is heavily based on how he perceives the Greek god Dionysian, god of wine and laughter (and music?). Essential qualities of the overman our:

Extreme Creativity
Absence of Prejudice
Nobility (defined as living without fear by Nietzsche)
Kindness
Above Feelings of Retribution and Revenge
Absence of Pity and Remorse (He thought it made misery contagious)
A Personal/Unique Path (His Own "Morality")
A Strong Will to follow His path ignoring what other would like him to do ("Those who cannot will themselves will be willed by others")
Lives Life to the Fullest
And Ultimately Love, above other men.

Did I cover it all A|P?  

He also believed a number of men to be closer to this than others (Higher Men). And that we should breed thee overman. He would probably agree with some form of Eugenics even though he was very critical of those who birthed the idea from Darwin's theory. It' more like a psychological Eugenics.

I think Nietzsche saw wisdom as the only true form of Power in the Universe and the Overman is someone who overcomes all prejudices that give the illusion of power and who can will his emotions. An Overman would be joyful even in what most would consider to be horrible ("My enemies will envy me in my worst times"). He is above the forces of gravity or depression.

Quote from: "Sophus"Essential qualities...

I think that you've done a beautiful job of summarizing Nietzsche's Overman, Sophus.

I really like the phrase "psychological eugenics."

(BTW: Dionysos is the god of Theatre, being a sort of disciple of Apollo, who's the god of Music.  Hermes actually invented the lyre and syrinx, which he traded to Apollo for a herd of cattle and the caduceus.  In the process, Apollo became the god of Music, and Hermes the god of Commerce.  Hermes, being a messenger as was I for many many years, is my favorite of the Olympians.)

Thanks Recusant.

That becomes sort of confusing - Apollo the god of music (and light/truth?), when Nietzsche emphasized the Dionysian aspect as being the more creative one; music the most freed, formless art. His use of Greek mythology doesn't really help his already obscure writing. Still love Greek Mythology though.  

Those qualities seem already to betray a sense of being grander than life, if not above petty normality, I think. Thanks for them, sophus. I will research them further.  

I just learned about him in my ethics class yesterday. I find it unfortunate that he gets a bad name for being liked by Hitler. Contrary to what people think, he was strongly against German Nationalism and racism. It is said that after his death, his sister edited his unpublished writings to sound more nationalistic.

I'm not sure what to think of the overman. My philosophy teacher said part of it was overcoming societal laws that hold us back. Nietchze also said that we should mold ourselves into a work of art.